Pay That Man His Money

This is the Drive Podcast with Josh Graham.

Now you're talking my language. You can hear the Drive weekday afternoons 3 till 6 on WSJS. We've made it to a Friday Drive. It is WSJS, new strong sports for the Triad, where we're going to hand out picks for the divisional round of the NFL playoffs in about a dozen minutes or so. Yes sir, J.C. Horn.

Send me that cash out, family. But before we break down those games, today is actually a significant day for the Carolina Panthers coaching search and here's why. The Panthers are expected to do a virtual interview with Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson today, which should pretty much put a bow on the first round of their interviews. That means we're close.

We're close here to seeing the white smoke billow from Bank of America Stadium off Mint Street in Charlotte. We're now entering the final phase of this coaching search. This is the latest that we know. The Panthers announced on their website they interviewed three offensive coordinator candidates yesterday. Dave Canales, Bucks OC. They interviewed the Bengals OC Brian Callahan and we're forgetting one here. They interviewed Bobby Slowik, the Texans offensive coordinator. Today, as mentioned, it's Ben Johnson. Carolina, once they interview Johnson, will have interviewed 11 coaches. Two internally, Ejiro Avero and Chris Tabor.

Six offensive coordinators, three defensive coordinators. The only coordinator that they requested an interview with that they have not interviewed up to this point or don't have an interview set as far as I've seen in the reporting is Eagles offensive coordinator Brian Johnson. So they might knock out one more interview. You could see that later today, maybe early tomorrow, but largely today is the end of round one of the interviews. Only finalists are going to get second interviews.

That seemed to be a rule across the league. If you make it to the second interview, you are a very serious candidate. Sometimes it's laughable. We know who you're going to hire.

It's pretty obvious. Why even do the second interview? For example, Bill Belichick's in Atlanta, apparently meeting with the GM, Terry Fontenot, meeting with Arthur Blank again. They had dinner last night. What are we doing at this point? We're doing a second interview with Bill Belichick. Hey Bill, we're going to bring you back.

We got some additional questions to ask you. That seems like a lock. During the Panthers search last year, there were three finalists for the job. W.D., Will Dalton, the executive producer of the show. Can you name the three finalists, the three men who got second interviews for the Carolina Panthers job last year? Well, obviously we know Frank Wright got one. He did? But I'm drawing a blank on the other two though.

One of them should be pretty obvious. Oh, Steve Wilkes. He got a second interview and the one that might get lost to history at the time Cowboys offensive coordinator Kellen Moore got a second interview with Carolina. If David Tepper has it his way, and again, it might not be these three or four guys because some of them might take other jobs or say they're or say they're not interested in the Panthers.

That very well could happen. Ben Johnson pulled his name out of the search for all teams last year. That could happen with some of these guys. If Tepper had it his way, you know, with concerts, the finalist, I think would be some combination of these four guys. Ben Johnson, Bobby Slowik, Miami O.C., Frank Smith, and Ravens offensive coordinator Todd Buncombe. I think when you look at the second interviews, I think it's going to be some combination of those guys who end up being finalists for this job. The Panthers hired Frank Reich on January the 26th, 2023.

That is a year ago next Friday. That's when you should expect the Panthers to have a coach by the end of next week. I think we've entered the final phase of this process. The Panthers are going to have a coach in the next week. I think it'll happen before they hire a GM for two reasons. Number one, Mr. Concerts, David Tepper, he wants to make the hire and number two, I bet you David Tepper believes that the head coach having a say in who the general manager is going to be will make the head coaching position more attractive.

I don't know if it will, but I bet you that's something that they think. We're in the final phase of that. On X, at WSJS radio, if you want in, that's where you can chime in on the show. Will Dalton, as mentioned, is producing the show, taking your calls at 336-777-1600. Several ways for you to listen or watch however and wherever you're spending time with us. We appreciate that. We're streaming video on YouTube, Twitch, and on X, WD. We actually forgot at the end of yesterday's show to pick your movie officially for next week. This is true. Can we get that done this hour?

I don't see why not. The finalists, as prestigious as the Panthers finalists are going to be, Saltburn, which came out and is drawing interesting reviews, polarizing movie, Brendan Marks suggestion. We have Rounders, 25 years old, that movie, pay that man his money, Shutter Island, this Oscar cycle, a lot of people talking about a Martin Scorsese, Leo DiCaprio movie, this qualifies is that as well, and Pineapple Express, which I actually watched last night. We'll get to that in just a bit, but let's get to college basketball. Let me preface this upfront. It's still early in the college basketball season. Most teams have 14 or so conference games left to play.

Obviously, a lot can change. However, based on the first two plus months of this season, Hubert Davis has emerged as the early front runner for national coach of the year. If you disagree with that, if you push back on that, give me a name that you think is a greater candidate for that through the first couple of months than Hubert is. He should be viewed as the national coach of the year front runner with about a month and a half left to go in the season.

It's not a small sample size we're talking about here, over two months and change. Think about it. He's turned a non-tournament team into a legit national contender. They are ranked number four in the country. Let's look at the teams that are ranked in front of them. You're talking about Yukon, Kansas, and Purdue.

You know what all three of those teams have in common? They were all in the preseason top 10. A couple of them in the preseason top three. The two behind them, Houston and Tennessee. Also in the preseason top 10. North Carolina was preseason 19. So when you look at the legit national title contenders, the front runners in the sport right now, Hubert is the only one leading a team that is overachieving out of that bunch that's ranked at the top. Teams that we would include on the top tier of college basketball right now. And it's easy to forget where things were going into last offseason, but don't for the purposes of this conversation. Some will say, oh, Carolina always has a lot of talent. Look at all those four and five star players. This is not, this was not a ready-made roster.

Not by a long shot. Hubert, it was a tough decision to move off of Caleb Love. Like you had to move off of your leading score.

You had to replace those points. He led the team in scoring and Hubert decided to move off of Caleb and to reclassify a guy who should be in high school right now in Elliott Caddell. When you look at the transfers he added, do you know what Harrison Ingram, Jalen Withers, James Akonkwo, Paxim Wojcik, and I think I'm forgetting one, Cormac and Cormac Ryan, what those guys all have in common, none of them played in the NCAA tournament last year. So you better have a lot of confidence in your evaluation, in your scouting of these guys to pick players off of teams that weren't that good, not good enough to play in the tournament and feel that they're going to add to your team the way that they've obviously added. And some will point to recruiting rankings and some will point to recruiting rankings and say, oh, let's look how good this team is. How many of these guys are going to play in the NBA?

When you look at this team right now, all the talk about stars and talents, how many draft picks are on this team? Do you know the last time North Carolina had a draft pick? See, this is the part where it's, oh, North Carolina's brand. Take the brand out of this. How many first round draft picks has North Carolina basketball?

How about this? Not even first round. How many draft picks all together have the Tar Heels had as a program in recent years? The last time a player got drafted off the North Carolina basketball team was four years ago, De'Ron Sharp. And he was not a lottery pick. Haven't had a lottery pick in five years. Oh, this elite talented program. Who on this team is going to be a lottery pick? In 24?

Nobody. Maybe Elliott Cadeau a year from now. Maybe, but not right now. Armando Bacon's not a lottery pick. He'd be lucky to get drafted. RJ Davis, I don't know if he's a first round draft pick.

Harrison Ingram, maybe. So give Hubert a lot of credit. This is not a ready-made roster. And he built this roster and found guys who weren't playing on NCAA tournament teams, who weren't obvious choices to bring in and made tough decisions to do so. That's why Hubert right now has done a better job than anybody else in college basketball, I feel, because he turned a team that wasn't supposed to be a contender this year into one of the bona fide, undoubted best teams in the country.

And that's why I think right now he should be viewed here in this election year, this campaign cycle we're seeing in college basketball start the campaign now that Hubert is the National Coach of the Year front runner right now. We got picks as we mentioned for the divisional round of the NFL playoffs that we hand out in Graham's gambling. Next. Today is your last day or at least today is the last show that you can register to win Armando t-shirts. Our bet turned by Breaking Tea and Armando himself into t-shirts.

We have three that we're going to give away on Monday's show when Wake Forest plays North Carolina. In this video, W.D., do we want people just to comment in this video right here? Let them get in on it.

Right. Just send movie movies for W.D. to potentially watch next week into this video here. And if you're subscribed, then you're going to be signed up.

It's that simple. Subscribe on YouTube to drive with Josh Graham and then comment for a movie W.D. needs to watch in our video, our live video right now.

It's live action. And you'll be registered along with the 60, 70 or so that have subscribed and registered in the last 24 hours. So that number continues to grow and we'll give away three t-shirts on Monday. Now let's get to divisional. Weekend, the best weekend of NFL Football of the Year, some call it the best teams playing. Graham's gambling time. If you're not gambling, come on now, let's talk some money. You're not trying. You are so money. You don't even know what you do. Let's play some bats.

I'm going to make you rich. This is Graham's gambling. Two and two again last week, a horrific beat in Detroit. We had the over on Lions Rams and I think it was 50 and a half. The teams combined for 38 in the first half. We just needed 13 points in the second half to get there. And neither team scored a touchdown in the second half to combine for nine points. Tough, tough way to go out. So two in two last week, we are 65 and 66 on the year because we went 0 and six during bowl season, not picking those meaningless bowl games again.

Not going to do it. That's the reason why we're under 500. So here are three bets for the divisional weekend and we start with the first game tomorrow at 430. Texans first half plus six and a half at the Ravens.

It was announced today. Mark Andrews not cleared to play for tomorrow. He's not back yet. No Marlon Humphrey in this game at corner. Bad weather is expected in Baltimore, too. And all the pressures on the Ravens. Everyone's just going to assume they will win this game. Let's not forget Lamar Jackson.

It's been a hurdle for him to have postseason success when they were a one seed a few years ago. The Titans went in there and upset them. I think given the fact we haven't seen the Ravens starters now for three weeks, they're going to start slow.

There might be some jitterness, some nerves right out of the gate. I think the Texans are going to jump out in this game. Ravens eventually win, but the Texans certainly cover six and a half in the first half in Baltimore. Sunday afternoon, one o'clock, Bucks, Lions. Surely, Josh, if you took the over on Lions Rams last week and it went under, you're not going to do that. Do the over for Bucks, Lions, right?

Wrong. We're doubling down. Bad pass defenses in this game. Both are bottom six in the league, the Bucks and Lions, the Lions having some injuries at corner as well. And by the way, in case you work in the Tampa Bay media and need to know this, the game is going to be played indoors. A lot of points, Bucks, Lions. I think this is going to be the most entertaining game of the weekend. Not, it's going to be the least talked about game, but the most entertaining on the field, Lions, Bucks over 48 and a half. And lastly, in Buffalo, we're going Kansas City plus two and a half at the Bills.

Patrick Mahomes first road game in the playoffs. That's being talked about quite a bit. People say that this isn't a vintage Kansas City team and they're right.

But what isn't being talked about enough? This is the worst Bills team we've seen in three or four years. Sean McDermott and Brandon Bean talked about it at the end of last year. Hey, now that we have to pay Josh Allen, we're not able to keep the same guys that we want to keep. And Josh Allen has been prone to turnovers the last few years.

Pretty much his entire career prone to turnovers. Kansas City's pass defense is actually really good, better than it's been in a while. So while the Chiefs offense has been down, the Chiefs defense has been legit, particularly the pass defense.

I think they forced some turnovers. I think Kansas City has a chip with everyone talking about, oh, the reason they made it to all these Super Bowls was that they were playing at home. No true road games for Patrick Mahomes. No road games in the playoffs for Patrick Mahomes. Kansas City wins the game on the field, but we'll take the points anyway. Chiefs plus two and a half.

It's weird. Don't you get to feel that there's no pressure on Kansas City in this spot, that all of it's on the Bills with that atmosphere. Hey, you finally got them in your building and this is your chance to get them in the playoffs. I think it's on the Bills and specifically Josh Allen.

Yes. And I think that's a recipe for Kansas City. So I like the Ravens to win outright, but we're going Texans plus six and a half first half. Bucks, Lions over forty eight and a half. Since I have the Lions in the Super Bowl facing the Baltimore Ravens, obviously I like the Lions to win that game. Chiefs outright, but Chiefs plus two and a half in Buffalo. And the one game that we're staying away from from the Graham's gambling perspective is Packers, Niners. I think the Niners win this game in a walk, but we're staying away from potential backdoor possibilities. There you have it. That's what we've got this week.

Do that cash out, family. W.D., putting the ball in your court here now. Coffee bet.

What do you like? Give me the Bills. Oh, give me the Bill because I'm with you on the Houston pick.

OK. Bucks, Lions. I like that one. Chiefs, Bill. But that's the one that I think could be a coin toss.

Give me the Bill. We'll go head to head on that. After interviewing Lions OC Ben Johnson, today, we think the Panthers are done with the first round of interviews for their head coaching vacancy. The Panthers website doing a great job of keeping people posted on who's actually completed interviews. So we welcome in the voice of the Panthers, Anish Raf. Welcome him back to the show, who's especially great to talk to today, because tomorrow afternoon he'll have to call on Wake Forest, Louisville in Winston-Salem. Anish, let's start with football. What do you make of the fact as far as we know, and excluding the internal candidates, that everybody Carolina has interviewed is a coordinator?

And Carolina seems to have not interest in sniffing around the splashier reach read names. Listen, at the end of the day, I think sometimes you can make too much of that. I had a couple of pretty good conversations with coaches, and they said, you know, we're going to pretty good conversations with coaches, football, basketball, various sports over the last few weeks. And a lot of times you're in this situation, you're looking for the next head coach, and we can get enamored by scheme. Well, this guy does this, this guy does this, and he calls plays like this. Can he lead? Can he be a leader? Can he galvanize a locker room?

Can he keep people together? Can he handle it when player X feels he isn't getting enough playing time, or player Y has issues with his contract in the front office? Those things, being able to manage your staff, manage your locker room, I think sometimes we forget about the importance of all that. So, yes, while you want to get a guy who, again, philosophically, schematically has the chops, you maybe want to identify that next great young head coach who is a coordinator right now. I do think you got to go through your due diligence and your due process to see if can he be a leader of men? Can he add that leadership quotient, which oftentimes I think we underestimate when we put these coaching hires and coaching wish lists together?

And I'll give you an example, right? Ben Johnson may end up being a terrific head coach in the NFL. A lot of signs point to that, and everybody wants the next Sean McVay, the next Kyle Shanahan, the next Mike McDaniel. But the reality is there have been a lot of Ben Johnson types over the years who didn't work out. I think Norb Turner might have been that guy three different times.

Hotshot OC, Hotshot DC, for whatever reason, it didn't work as a head coach. So I just look at it holistically, and I say, to me, there's more here than just bringing in somebody because of the system they run and the scheme they run. It's one thing to go get a guy from the Shanahan tree and say, okay, do in Carolina what you're doing in San Francisco.

Well, it might be easier in San Francisco when you've got McCaffrey and Deebo and Ayuk and Kittle. I agree with you. So my reaction to this, I can kind of see two sides of it. Part of me likes, especially since Carolina's been open the longest since they fired Frank Reich so early in the year, that they developed the strategy and seemed to have a type that they're going after, and they're following through on that criteria. But on the other end of the spectrum, none of the guys that they've interviewed have the experience that you're talking about, having demonstrated what it's like to lead a locker room.

So I am a little split on that. Well, you look at D'Amico Ryan's, right? D'Amico Ryan's was never a head coach before he got to Houston. He's probably one of the front runners for NFL coach of the year. To me, this is what the interview process is for.

You want to identify a guy that, yes, he was able to do whatever he could schematically with the pieces that he had, but then what's that next component? Can he lead? Can he manage a locker room? Can he handle the media?

And again, surface level, that may seem inconsequential when you talk to the guys in the locker room. I give you Steve Wilkes as a great example. Steve Wilkes, we knew he was a great D coordinator, but in his time as the interim head coach, the way the guys spoke about him as a leader, being able to galvanize a one in five team that had just traded Christian McCaffrey and turning that team into a 500 team the rest of the year and one that played a meaningful game in a week 17.

That leadership component, I don't think you can undervalue that at the expense of scheme. Anish Raf's on the road joining us. He'll be on the call. Wait for us. Louisville and Winston Salem tomorrow.

Voice of the Panthers as well. Two quick things before we let you go. Let's get into the divisional round, I should say, of the NFL playoffs. Which of these matchups are you most interested in watching?

Well, I mean, it's easy, right? Buffalo, Kansas City. Now, this is the game that Buffalo has had trouble winning. They've had trouble beating Kansas City in the postseason. Chiefs knocked them out a couple of times, but those games were at Arrowhead. Now you go to Buffalo.

You got home field. Buffalo right there with Baltimore, San Francisco. They're playing as well as anybody down the stretch. They got a real shot down the stretch. They got a real shot to get to the Super Bowl. Kansas City, it's Patrick Mahomes and he's elevating the guys around him right now.

The level on offense is not the same as it was a couple of years ago. I think it's a real chance for Buffalo to win. First road game of Patrick Mahomes, road playoff game of Patrick Mahomes's career starting for the Chiefs.

Last thing for you. What most interests you when you've done Wake Forest games already this year? What most interests you about the story of this particular basketball team?

Josh, I've said this on the air a couple of times. This is a team that can get to the Sweet 16. They can play into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament.

The net rankings, and you and I have texted about this quite a bit, some of it is so skewed and it can be manipulated with margin of victory and blowout wins against bad teams. And the reality is Wake Forest, once they got Efton Reed back into the lineup, it's a different team. Now, at times, can he be prone to foul trouble? Yes. At times, are their lapses defensively?

Yes. They remind me a lot of Miami a season ago. Miami was not particularly deep and as good as Norchat O'Mear was, he wasn't seven feet tall like Efton Reed. They've got five guys on the floor. They're starters who can score. Any of those five guys can lead the team in scoring on any given night. The ACC is loaded with very good offensive teams and different styles.

The Wake is right up there with the best of them. They can score with anybody. It could be a different guy. It could be Hildreth one night. It could be Carr. We've seen Boopy. We've seen Sal.

You can beat Reed as a double-double guy. I think the key for this Wake Forest team is, you know, is Monsanto ever going to be a factor this season? Can they get more from their bench? You can point to the officiating at the end of the NC State game and that's fair game. The reality was you had a double-digit lead at halftime. You lost it.

Your bench played 38 minutes and scored two points. Anish Shroff will be on the call with Josh Pasner tomorrow for Wake Forest, Louisville. Have a great call. I'll see you out at the Joel tomorrow, Anish. Thanks for doing it. See you, buddy. To make this show a lot smarter, Brian Geissiger will join us. 15 minutes or so from now, we will try to out-precise the Geiss.

Odds are it'll go unsuccessfully. The Carolina Panthers are not in the playoffs. The last time they were in the playoffs, 2017 season, 2018 calendar year, wildcard round loss to the New Orleans Saints in New Orleans.

That was six years ago. That doesn't mean the Panthers aren't paying close attention to the playoffs though. And from a Panthers perspective, there are two games to watch, especially close because five candidates that the Panthers have interviewed are coaching this weekend. Most notably in the first game of the divisional round, Texans Ravens. Carolina interviewed both Baltimore coordinators during Baltimore's bye week last week.

McDonald, the DC, Todd Munkin, the OC, the Texans, OC, Bobby Slowik. He was interviewed by Carolina yesterday. That's the first coaching interview that Bobby Slowik has done this cycle.

Four other teams have requested to interview him. To me, the slam dunk candidates for Carolina are Ben Johnson and Bobby Slowik. Those are the two guys. If that's announced to be Carolina's hire, you should be fist pumping in the street. Super excited. I'm talking about the way Kevin James' character was celebrating in the street after kissing Allegra Cole in the Hitch movie.

That's the way you should be celebrating. I don't know the name of the actress. I just remember her name in the movie. I don't remember the actress, but I know Allegra. That's right.

I know Allegra. Do the throw of the inhaler. Do that move. It's a good move there.

Great movie with a lot of great dance moves in it. I'm not going to let this get sidetracked anymore. Those are the two that I think are the top candidates, Slowik and Ben Johnson. Bobby Slowik going up against Baltimore's two coordinators and the Panthers will never admit they care what C.J. Stroud does in games, but they care when they drafted Bryce Young over C.J. Stroud.

That's another reason to be paying close attention to that. Then there's Lions-Bucks. You've got two OCs that you've interviewed going head-to-head. On one side, it's Lions OC Ben Johnson, who we were just talking about. In the other corner, Bucks OC Dave Canales. Now, I don't think there's a candidate that could have a bigger upward trajectory in terms of being considered for these jobs more than Dave Canales can.

You could say Tom Monken, but Tom Monken's in a pretty cozy spot as is. It's just his first season as the offensive coordinator with the Ravens. Not a serious candidate yet, but he's going to be one of these days, it seems like. Dave Canales, I don't think people even knew what his name was a month and a half ago. If he pulls off the upset and the Bucks have a great game with Baker and they get to the championship game some way, somehow, I think that becomes the trendy name where people are like, hey, the Panthers are going to hire Dave Canales.

People are going to start talking about that name legitimately if they were to win this weekend. Johnson, meanwhile, is the prize for Carolina from Asheville, went to UNC, born in Charleston. You want to bring back two states, one team. Ben Johnson's the two states, one team candidate.

There are a lot of other reasons to like him too. Ben Johnson going head-to-head with Dave Canales. Those are the two games to watch from a Panther's perspective. But if we're being honest about it, I also think those are going to end up being the two best games of the weekend.

I really do. I don't see Niners, Green Bay being all that close. Don't put so much stock into one playoff game. Like if I asked you a week ago what the spread would be for a Green Bay, San Francisco game, you'd probably set that spread higher than where it is right now.

See me to cash out, family. Oh, but because they beat Dallas. Stop.

San Francisco in a walk. Buffalo and Kansas City, I think that'll be a close game. But this is another reminder. This is a PSA to sports fans everywhere. Just because it's a close game doesn't mean it's always a good game. Doesn't mean I don't think a lot of scoring is going to happen in this game. I don't. I think it's going to be a close game.

I don't. I think the Chiefs will win it. Like we did Graham's gambling.

Send me that cash out, family. And the game that's a coffee bet between you and I, Chiefs plus two and a half at the Bills. I think Josh Allen will turn it over. I think the Bills and Chiefs are both shells of themselves from where they were two years ago in the 13-second game where the Chiefs had 13 seconds to score and they did. And then it went to overtime and then a rule got changed literally because of that game.

I think, or people were advocating for a rule to change because of that game. I don't think either of these teams are that good. So I don't think the game's going to be as great, even though that is the game that's being talked about the most and the next most is the Packers and the 49ers just because of the teams, the brands, and how big they are. But Texans, Ravens, especially early on, don't be surprised if you look at that score and you're like, whoa, 13-7 Texans? Whoa, 7-6 Texans? Texans plus six and a half first half. Book it. We're going with that.

Send me that cash out, family. And then we're going with the over with Lions, Bucks. That's what we had in Graham's gambling. But I think those are going to end up being the two best games. A lot of scoring, Bucks, Lions, and then the Ravens, Texans game is going to be better than you might think as well in Baltimore where bad weather is expected. No Marlon Humphrey, no Mark Andrews tomorrow, even though some thought he might be back in time for that game.

Looking forward to catching up with Brian Geisinger in a bit. We'll get into ACC basketball. Could the ACC Big Four sweep tomorrow?

Like on paper, you think they will. Like three of the four are going to be at home. Louisville's at Wake.

Damari Monsanto, Jawa Tuka, for the first time this year, going to be ready to go according to Wake in the last hour and a half. Louisville, not very good. Apparently been hanging out in North Carolina since playing in Chapel Hill a couple of nights ago. B Dot, six man guitar heel basketball, told us that Dolan Smith was at Winston-Salem State last night. Big fan of Dolan Smith.

Look forward to seeing him tomorrow. Danny Manning? Duke killed Pitt in the Oakland Zoo a week and a half ago. They were up 25 at halftime in that game.

Do you think they're going to lose it, Cameron? Don't forget, John Chiers lost one game in his first year and a half as Duke's coach at Cameron. And that was to Arizona. And that was an amazing game. You think loss number two is going to be to the Panthers?

No. North Carolina, they're at... Where are they at, W.D.? Where are the Tar Heels playing? Boston College.

That's right. In a hockey arena, Conte Forum, Quinton Post against Armando Bacot in the post. Armando. Boston College.

Postman versus Bacot. We still have those T-shirts we're giving away. Last show today for you to sign up. If you want to get the Armando T-shirts, just go to our YouTube channel, watch the live video we have right now and comment or go to the video we have about the T-shirts. Comment on that page after subscribing. We could tell if you've subscribed on your comments.

So subscribe first, then comment a movie for W.D. to watch in the future, and that'll have you registered and we'll give away three T-shirts on Monday ahead of Wake Forest in North Carolina. The Tar Heels, they're 6-0.

Combined win margin of 96 points, including three double-digit road wins. Are they going to lose at Boston College? Boston College.

Probably not. So who are we most concerned about? For me, it's the one team we haven't talked about yet. That's NC State.

The Wolf Pack. Stay at home and welcome in the Virginia Tech Hokies. State has no great wins.

Pack fans have been upset with me. Josh, we're 5-1 in the ACC. We're great. We're great.

Why? Because our record says we're great. And I say to that, it matters who you play and it's very early.

I need to see more. Because I think how you win does matter. And who you play does matter at this point. If you're 18-2 at the end, sure.

Yeah, you've proven it because you've beaten bonafide contenders. But at Notre Dame, you need them to go scoreless the final two minutes, and miss two front ends of free throws, and turn it over twice just to win by two. Just to win by two? You had to go to overtime with Boston College?

Really? You were down 11 at home to Wake with 10 minutes to go and had some officiating. Break your way in the final moments.

I'm not saying that's the reason. I'm just saying Wake Forest missed a lot of free throws too, and you weren't exactly awesome. You didn't hit a three in the game. First time an ACC team has won a game without hitting a three in close to two years. Where's the impressive win? Oh, you beat Virginia by double digits. Everybody beats Virginia by double digits when they're on the road. Notre Dame beat them by 23. Wake beat them by 19 last Saturday.

You struggled with Louisville last Saturday. So Virginia Tech has a great opportunity here for a quad one win. Hopefully it's not going to look like the game a few years ago at PNC Arena. I was 47 to 24 Virginia Tech winning that game. Hopefully it's not going to look like that.

There'll be more scoring than that, but that's the way I feel about it. If I had to pick it all the way down the line, four for four, ACC big four sweep, but I know as that leaves my lips, somebody's going to mess it up. It's not going to be Duke.

It's not going to be Wake. North Carolina, Boston College. I don't think it's them, but if it's going to be somebody, it's more them than the first two or NC State, who I think is the team that you have circled.

I think you're onto something there. Shout out to Denzel and Ridgeway. Haven't heard from him in a while.

Hope he's okay. Getting back to the Tar Heels. What's been more impressive, the turnaround we see from them offensively or their top defense? We'll get into that with Brian Geisiger and into the NBA when we play out Precisely Geis, next. We'll get into the NBA with Brian Geisiger and just a bit when we play out Precisely Geis.

BG joins us. Reed has very thoughtful, thorough work for 24-7 Sports, especially stuff he's done on Wake Forest. He's been a great player for the past 10 years. He's done thorough work for 24-7 Sports, especially stuff he's done on Wake Forest in recent months.

It's about as good as stuff you will find in thorough detail. Been thinking a lot about that with the Sports Illustrated news of the day that we need more nuanced, more long-form work like BG does. BG, let's get into North Carolina basketball first here. What has impressed you more with the improvements that they've played? The improvements that Hubert has made offensively with some of the additions in the portal or just how strong North Carolina has been on the other side of the floor? Yeah, I guess you have to start with the defense a little bit. Maybe they've been getting a little bit of shooting luck. Opponents are shooting under 30% on threes this season against them.

UNC is doing some stuff to influence that, but that might jump up to the low 30s. When that happens, they may not be a top five defense or whatever after that. I think they're doing a nice job of sticking to their fundamentals, but maybe having Bacott not in quite as deep of a drop, as maybe we're used to seeing.

You might see Wake Forest with Efton Reed and Matthew March and Zach Keller in. Yeah, they did a great job in the portal because they went and got a nice wing defender in Cormac Ryan. Then they got a versatile forward two-way player in Harrison Ingram who gives them someone else that they can run the offense through. He can post up. He can shoot. He's got the versatility. He can rebound enough to play the four.

He's got the strength to play the four, but he's mobile enough to be out on the perimeter too. No surprise that this is a well-run program. Hubert Davis is a good coach. He knows how to organize an offense. They found a base defense that's really clicking for them. Certainly, they did a great job in the portal last offseason too. After Duke and Carolina, how wide is the gap between them and the next best ACC team, you think? Who do you think that third team might be?

Yeah, it's tough because it's pretty wide. I think those two teams have sort of distanced themselves, but this stuff changes quickly. Graham, when I was on with you, or maybe it was when you and I were on with Adam Gold a few weeks ago too, Clemson was still playing great at the time. I think we were asked, is Clemson the best team in the ACC?

I basically said, get back to me later. Here they are at two and four, and they're not shooting the ball as well. Their opponents are shooting a much better clip now, and Clemson has lost five of its last eight games probably. This can change quickly.

It's not set in stone. Miami has not looked to be as good as we thought it was going to be. Same with Virginia. I think those teams have another gear that it can possibly get to. I really, really like this Wake Forest team a lot. I think they absolutely deserve to be in consideration for this next tier. Would you put Florida State in that group after seeing them the last few weeks? I'd like to see the offense be a little bit better, but yeah.

It's five and one in the ACC. Jameer Watkins has had a great season and is someone that probably should be in consideration for all defense in the league. I can say the same thing about Baba Miller. I thought he had a really nice game against Wake when the Deacs were down there two weeks ago or so. He's still learning the game on offense, but he's a real talent protecting the rim and guarding in space defensively. I worry a little bit about FSU's offense, but the defense is legit. You saw it when Wake played down there the other week.

Like they can take what you're trying to do offensively and just throw it over the top rope because they're so long, they're athletic, they're tall, they pressure gaps, and they switch a lot too. You've got to be ready to play against them in Leonard Hamilton, Stan Jones. It's a great coaching staff too. I'm not quite there with FSU, but they probably deserve a recognition in that tier 2b. I'm getting yelled at from NC State fans because I don't believe they're good despite the fact they're 5-1. I just look at every single one of their ACC games and other than the Virginia win, none of it's been really all that impressive.

Where are you at? Are you there with NC State or are you still skeptical? I still have a little bit of skepticism just because I worry about the half court offense a little bit. It worked against Wake Forest because DJ Horn had the game of his life shooting from the mid-range, but NC State doesn't make a three in that game. They assist on only 20% of their field goals and they still score over 1.1 points per possession.

They do so just because mostly because DJ Horn was on a heater and Ben Middlebrooks also had it going getting downhill too. I think that was a good win because Wake is a really good team and they're really well coached. It was just a weird game that State had to come back from the final. They were down two possessions the final three, four minutes of that game.

I think that was actually a pretty impressive win. Look, I know Boston College isn't an amazing juggernaut. Look, maybe UNC goes up and just blasts them in Chestnut Hill this week, but you do have to match up with Quinton Post.

He's seven feet tall. He's shooting almost 45% on threes. He's maybe this team's best passer. He's a tough guy to match up with and NC State had a really, really good game plan for that game using Mo Diarra to cover him. I do give state credit for that. Chestnut Hill is a weird place to win on the road not because it's intimidating but because there's usually not a lot of energy in the building and they've got a guy in post that's like, you know, he'll get a sniff of the NBA and he's a tough matchup guy too.

I think State has a couple of wins plus the Virginia game that they can actually hold up as being solid conference wins including one on the road in Chestnut Hill. Half-court offense does, I do think their ceiling is like a little bit lower just because I'm not crazy about what they're doing in that capacity. Getting to the NBA portion of the proceedings with Brian Geisinger, we play Outprecise the Guice. Brian Geisinger is a basketball genius.

Josh Graham is not. I'm smart, you're dumb. I'm big, you're little. I'm right, you're wrong. Listen as Brian launches half-court shots and Josh, well, double dribbles all over himself.

And there's nothing you can do about it. Get off the bench and try to outprecise the Guice. Three questions that W.D. has that he's dug up for our resident hoop nerd Brian Geisinger and myself.

Where are we beginning in the association? Well, we saw the Pacers get a nice piece the other day from Toronto in Pascal Siakam. So the question here is, how many points per game does Pascal Siakam average so far this season?

Like that trade for the Pacers not having to give up Jaris Walker or Andrew Nembhard or any of their other young guys like Ben Matherin. Siakam, let's go 22 points per game for Pascal. I got 18.6 written down.

It's 22.2. I was assuming it was like lower, things weren't going great with Toronto, but then again, no, it's on bad teams. You got to someone's got to score those points. It's like the Kevin Love theory with Minnesota. Someone's got to score those points.

Speaking of Minnesota, they're at the top of the West. Anthony Edwards has been on an absolute terror recently. He has. What's his field goal percentage so far this year?

Yeah, it's been awesome. Big game last night. He does take a lot of crazy shots.

He shoots a lot of threes. So I'm going to say 48% for the Ant-Man. I had 46.

It's 46 and a half. Look at that. I got one.

I got one. Even the score up. I wonder what his three-point shooting percentage is. It's probably still.

Probably like upper mid to upper thirties, just on a ton of volume. You mentioned the crazy shots. He does take some heat checks. Yeah. He's allowed, but yeah, Minnesota, they're great. Their offense is sort of like, meh.

And I do wish Ant would dial back some of the, no, no, no, no, no, no jump shots that he likes to take. Last one. This is for the win. For the win, I tell you a team that's really interesting is the Thunder.

Yeah. Chet Holgren. He's leading the way for NBA rookie of the year over Wimby. He's got a pretty good field goal percentage too at 54.2.

How many boards is he averaging a game? No Wimby tonight against the Hornets, by the way. He's taking the night off on the second end of the back-to-back. Yeah.

Good, good idea. It's going to make that game tough to watch. Not going to lie. For sure. You said how many rebounds per game from Chet?

Yep. Let's go, let's go seven and a half. Oh, I went high. I went 11 and a half.

7.2. Coming in the glass. Sometimes you just got to give the golf clap. He toured with you a little bit. For the guy.

He played with his food. Like NC State against Louisville and against Notre Dame. The Thunder are not a great defensive rebounding team and Chet is not like a great rebounder either. He plays a lot of center for them.

That's actually one of the weaknesses of that team is you can kind of do damage against them and Chet on the glass a little bit. You are not one of the weaknesses of this show. You're one of the strengths. Brian Geisinger, look forward to seeing you at a game sometime soon. Thanks for making time for us. Take care guys. Have a nice day.