John Swofford's Legacy

It's been a huge news day in the Triad today. One of the most beloved Tar Heels, Vince Carter, officially announced his retirement. That's after an NBA record 22 years in the league. Then we learned ACC Commissioner John Swafford is going to retire at about this time next summer. Sitting in that chair for nearly a quarter century is an achievement by itself. But years from now, I'm talking decades, I think Swafford is going to be remembered for how he steered the league during multiple conference expansion cycles.

To me, that's where he shined most. Because no other Power 5 conference emerged better, stronger from expansion than the ACC under Swafford's leadership. Just look at the other Power 5 leagues. The SEC, it gained Missouri and A&M. They were the only conference not to lose any teams. The Big Ten brought in Nebraska, brought in Maryland, brought in Rutgers. The Pac-12, Colorado and Utah in 2011. The Big 12 really got hit hard. Nebraska and A&M, they lost them, they lost Missouri, they lost Colorado, gaining West Virginia and TCU, while the ACC added seven teams, seven schools under Swafford, and only lost one in Maryland.

Looking specifically at what he added though, because I think that's the most important thing. He enhanced the league's football profile. Miami and Virginia Tech. It's crazy to think now, but 15 years ago, many people thought that the ACC was going to be ruined forever because Miami was added to the league. Every year it's going to be Miami and Florida State in the championship game.

We've never had that match up one time. In fact, you have to go back a couple years ago to the first time Miami won the Coastal. So yeah, didn't exactly break the ACC. Speaking of FSU, there was real concern that the ACC might lose Florida State about a decade ago, but after adding Louisville and adding Pittsburgh and Syracuse, Swafford got the remaining members in the conference to commit to a grant of rights that goes through, I think, 2035 or 2036, which meant FSU was safe. They were off limits from the SEC or from the Big 12.

That's a really big deal. Having ACC teams play Notre Dame as part of Notre Dame's partnership with the Atlantic Coast Conference in basketball and other sports. While we're talking about other sports, the ACC has become the undeniable number one basketball conference out there, when in 1997, that was really up for debate. The biggies had all these tremendous schools. Other conferences would have really strong years, but with the disintegration of the East, adding Louisville, adding Syracuse, adding Pittsburgh, it's just no question anymore. Hall of Fame coaches across the board, K, Roy, when Louisville was added, Pitino.

I think that might be fool's gold, though. If we're looking at what Louisville's added to the league since being added, a lot more problems than success. Miami, maybe even the same way with that, but no way Swafford could really forecast that. When you add a program of Louisville stature or Miami stature, but Syracuse with Jim Boeheim, Pittsburgh and its history, it's the number one undeniable basketball conference.

There are things you can knock. In the 90s when he took over, it was Florida State and eight other schools. Nobody could hang with Florida State.

He's exiting next year, and what has changed? It's Clemson and 14 other schools, pretty much. Not a lot of depth, but if you're going to try and criticize Swafford for that, he added Miami, he added Virginia Tech, he added really quality programs. Swafford's Louisville had a Heisman Trophy winner in Lamar Jackson, so basketball improved under Swafford's watch, football enhanced its portfolio. Then there is Notre Dame. If Notre Dame joins a conference, in football that is, there's no question it's going to be the ACC. Swafford got that done.

He started that relationship. Hey, even though you're not a full-time member, you can play three of our schools each year, and we'll have you in basketball, we'll have you in other sports. So one day, if you go unbeaten, and since you don't have a conference championship game, you get left out of the playoff for whatever reason, and you feel the need, you have to join a conference, it's going to be our conference. It's part of the reason why, if you start forecasting potential replacements for Swafford, an outside-the-box candidate might be Jack Swarbrick. One of the best ADs across America. He's Notre Dame's AD.

Knows certainly how to deal with national TV and independents, and he would do a really fine job. Has affiliation with the ACC. If you're thinking you want to maybe fast speed up the process of getting Notre Dame in the league, maybe Swarbrick might help broker that.

That's just one guy to consider. We'll ask David Teel who else would be considered for Swafford's replacement. He broke the news for the Richmond Times dispatch earlier today. One of the finest ACC riders going to join us in ten minutes. But let's hear from Swafford. The ACC put this out.

Here he is talking about his impending retirement, which will come into effect at the end of June 2021. Well, I've been blessed to be at the ACC for 23 years going into my 24th, and I've been blessed to have been a player in this league, to have been an athletic director in this league, to have spent basically half a century associated with schools in the ACC or the ACC itself. And I don't know how anybody could be more blessed with a career in college athletics.

Just think about that. He became the AD at North Carolina in 1980. So 1980, 1981 would have been his first athletic year.

That's 40 years ago. That was a year before a guy named Mike Jordan stepped on campus at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. He, of course, was an all-academic athlete in the North Carolina program as well, North Carolina Athletic Department. And if we're talking about more historical significance, he's been at the ACC office, Robert, since 1997. His first year in that chair was Vince Carter's last year at North Carolina.

Just think about that. How long he's been in the league. Oh, I just showed up at North Carolina a year before Mike Jordan arrived. I became the ACC commissioner in 97, the last year Vince Carter is around.

I'm going to announce my retirement in 2021, the same day Vince Carter announces his retirement in the NBA after 22 seasons. That's just remarkable. Robert Walsh is the producer of this show. You can tweet us at SportsUpTryIt.

336-777-1600. Also had a chance earlier today to catch up with Panthers head coach Matt Ruhl. A few things that I wanted to discuss with him. I think Joe Brady's a star and we'll get to that maybe a little bit later on. I'm just interested in what his initial impressions were of Brady and how that's translated to the meeting rooms in the spring.

The offseason program that's been all virtual, effectively about the end. But I also wanted to talk to him about Teddy Bridgewater because there's still this narrative that hangs over his head. This negative stigma almost that Teddy isn't a downfield passer.

A lot of that has to do with analytics. Ruhl was brought in due in large part to his interest in analytics. So I presented that narrative on Teddy to Ruhl a short while ago and this is how Matt responded. Teddy for us is exactly what we want. I think this offense in general, when you look at it in New Orleans, that iteration of it where Joe first learned it is not necessarily a vertical down the field passing game as much as it is a catch and run underneath matchup type passing game. We obviously have the ability to throw the ball downfield. Teddy's got a great arm. I think I can remember him.

I think it was Ted Ganey threw like a what I would call like a launch route like 48 yards on the right sideline last year, like to like a 12 yard line against somebody. So he certainly has the arm strength to do it. And that's the big thing. Can you do what we ask you to? I think a rocket arm is overrated, like these guys who can throw cannons.

I got news for you. Brady, Montana, Breeze, Manning, none of them had cannons. A lot of them lacked arm strength, especially in the last decade for Manning, Breeze and for Brady. Teddy, he was efficient when he threw it down the field. Six of nine and passes over 20 yards through the air with the Saints at his five starts.

He was great in Minnesota five years ago. I struggle to believe at 27 years old he's lost his arm strength. The one injury he had was to his knee, not his arm last I checked. But it also speaks to why Teddy's an upgrade from the Cam situation.

Now listen to what I'm saying. The current situation of Teddy is better than the current situation with Cam. That doesn't mean Teddy's a better player than Cam. But the last two years we've been talking about injuries hanging over Cam and that he's a little bit older.

And by a little bit, I mean four years older. And also Cam would have to learn a new offense while Teddy is going to be running an offense that looks a lot like the one he just came from in New Orleans. The contract situation's better as well.

So while Teddy, healthy, probably isn't a better player than Cam is, his situation, everything that comes along with Teddy, it's less baggage. It's a better fit for Matt Rule and where Carolina is currently at. David Teal, as I mentioned, one of the greatest ACC riders ever. He broke the news this morning of Swofford's retirement. He will join to discuss the Commissioner's legacy.

Next on The Drive. So once again the big headline of the day, John Swofford announcing that he's going to be retiring at about this time next year. After the 2020-2021 athletic season. A guy who was right on top of it before the league announcement, David Teal from the Richmond Times-Dispatch. It's crazy to think, I don't know if you've been on this show since we've been doing this the last few years in the Triad, but the league offices are of course right in our backyard. You've been covering the conference for about 35, 36 years now.

It's good to have you with us and I'm just interested. I believe he's going to be most remembered for the expansion of the league over the last 23 years. Aside from that, if I take that off the board, what do you think his greatest achievement has been?

The network, Josh. That was a project long in the making and actually they're very much connected because without the expansion and the subsequent broadening of the ACC's geographic footprint, the fan base, the addition even as a partial member of Notre Dame, then there would not be an ACC network. Follow him on Twitter at ByDavidTeal anytime you're in a leadership position. I don't care if you're a principal, a radio station owner, certainly an athletic director, and in Swofford's chair, there are going to be things you hope to have back. Maryland leaving the league, you add seven schools, you lose one. Football, when he got into the chair, it was Florida State and everybody else. As it seems he's going to leave it, it's Clemson and everybody else.

Just more everybody else's, 14 versus 8 in 1997. What do you think is the thing he looks back on and says, I wish I had that one back? Josh, actually I would go back to the summer of 2003 expansion when because of its bylaws, the ACC conducted a very public courtship of Boston College, Miami, and Syracuse, which went awry when Virginia, which was a swing vote in the process, insisted on the inclusion of Virginia Tech, and it was very messy. In fact, John has told me over the years that that is in fact his greatest regret, just how that all transpired. Now in hindsight, he has said that getting Virginia Tech in the league was quote a godsend, unquote.

But the process was not flattering to anyone, so much so that the then president of Wake Forest issued an apology for how mishandled it had been. Now, the big question is going to be over the next year, what's the criteria for Swofford's replacement? Who are some guys who maybe could fit those shoes? I've had conversations off the air with people who are debating whether or not the right thing to do is to bring in somebody who, or just to promote somebody who's already an AD in the conference versus somebody who might be on the periphery like a Michael Kelly who worked inside the ACC office. Now he's the AD at USF. Some even said, do you go with somebody in the 60s when you consider ADs who have been, or commissioners who have been hired the last couple of cycles have been in their 50s and stayed in that chair for at least a decade.

When you're thinking about criteria and some potential names, where do you go first? Well, I think Michael Kelly is certainly a name that you would consider. Bernadette McGlade is commissioner of the Atlantic 10. She too worked on the ACC staff.

She played basketball at Carolina, worked and coached at Georgia Tech, worked as an administrator there. Shane Lyons, the West Virginia AD, was on John Swofford's staff in Greensboro. John Wildhack, Dan Radekovich, Stan Wilcox, the former Florida State AD. There will be no shortage of candidates. And then in-house, he's got three deputies in Bentario and Brad Hostetter and Iacola.

There's going to be plenty of folks involved. I want to ask you this because it's crazy when you consider how long Swofford's been in the ACC. David Thiel with us, by the way.

Richmond Times Dispatch on Twitter, at by David Thiel. When he arrived at North Carolina, it was the year before a guy named Mike Jordan stepped on campus. When he became the ACC commissioner, it was the last year of Vince Carter being in Chapel Hill. And on the same day Swofford announces his retirement as ACC commissioner, Vince Carter announces he's going to retire officially as well after an NBA record 22 seasons in the league. You've covered pretty much all of Vince Carter's ACC tournaments he competed in. When you think about Vince, where do you go first? Do you have a favorite Vince Carter memory? I don't know if I have a favorite Vince Carter. It would probably, Josh, just be a collection of the high wire acts.

I mean, he was just so spectacular that every time you saw the Tar Heels play, you just expected some kind of levitation act that was just going to leave you, of course, clueless as to how to describe it in words. David, it's just good to have you on the show, man. I hope you're doing well. Great work as always earlier today. Hope we can catch up sometime soon. Josh, best to you and all your listeners. Stay safe out there.

Thank you so much. He's on Twitter, at by David Teal, one of the best ACC riders ever from the Richmond Times Dispatch. Robert, you want to know what's a strong sign of how much I miss sports? What's that? I watched 12 minutes of Cam Newton playing pickup basketball with Todd Gurley and Quavo earlier today. 12 minutes of that. And I have thoughts like this is the closest thing to live sports that I have, aside from the breaking news of the day with Swofford and Vince Carter. But just watching something and being able to break it down, I've missed that. We just haven't had it for months among football players or basketball players that we cover so closely.

Here's what I found in this. Cam is a noticeably bad basketball player. Like, you know how I feel about him as a quarterback. I know how you feel about him as a person. I feel like Zion to birth his children is number one and then Cam is number two. I wouldn't go that far. We've been pretty critical of Cam, but I think fair.

You can be critical of someone and still want to have their children. I'll leave that right there. Noted. Right where you're putting it.

I'll leave it there. He's a noticeably bad player. I counted at least three air balls in the 12 minutes.

He wasn't getting a lot of baskets. And what's amazing about it, it's pretty easy to hide in a pickup game. I'm the master of hiding in pickup. For me, I have this anxiety when I play pickup because I'm not a good basketball player. To step out there, make the first shot I take, and then the rest of the way, it's just gravy. I'm going to do some distributing.

I'm going to do some pick setting. I'm going to be the great teammate guy. And then if everybody saw me make the first shot I attempted, unless they already know how dilapidated my game is before that, they might think, oh, Josh is just having a bad day. Oh, Josh's jumper's just not falling right now. The first shot is key. When I played at Cameron Indoor, a pickup game, they have a media pickup game every year, I attempted my first shot from three-point range and I drained it. The rest of the pickup game was gravy because I made that first shot.

If I missed it, I would have been riddled with anxiety. Can I tell you something that might ease your anxiety? Sure. No one expects you to be good at basketball. Right, but my personal expectation is a lot higher than everybody else's expectation. You should not expect yourself to be good at basketball either.

Well, no. Here's the thing. It's kind of like when at work, you always want to be great at what you do. Your expectation should be higher than what other people set for it. Like this radio show, there is no chance anybody listening who might dislike this show or think something's not good, that their bar is higher than the bar that I set for myself.

It's set incredibly high. Now, while Cam's a bad basketball player, he's still a guy I want on my team because he sets a lot of picks. I don't know many guys in pickup basketball who are setting picks. Cam doing it with regularity. Secondly, Todd Gurley was wearing a really sweet Alonzo morning jersey. In my chats with Gurley, I know how much he loves hoops. Saw him at a Duke Carolina game last year. Caught up with him before or after the opener against the Panthers when he was with the Rams. And he just loves talking about college basketball. Loves talking about the NBA. Stepping the Hornets, thought that was cool, but the Falcons can't be happy with this, right?

You got Gurley, who you just committed to taking a chance on. And he's playing pickup hoops with Cam around 25 other dudes on a small court. I don't know if Dr. Fauci would approve of that. I don't know if Atlanta would approve of that.

Like this was shot I think a month ago. So I don't quite know where Cam's home is. I think it's in Florida.

The Falcons, interested in how they feel about this. Quavo, really good hooper. Dude, a baller. It's incredible.

Silk jumper. They said that he could have went pro in basketball or football if he would have tried. It was intense when he played too.

Like arguing with people, talking smack. Quavo, very impressed. If you check out any of the celebrity games he's in, he is always the MVP.

Just his shot, like you talked about, is so wet. Coming up, why Wake Forest will see an uptick in quarterback play this year without Jamie Newman. You heard that right.

This is a Thursday Drive. So I started thinking, we just wrapped up a decade of football and we're about to enter a new one in 2020. Let's look back the last 10 Super Bowl champions and rank them 10 through 1. Just the champions. There might be some situations the better teams didn't win at the end.

I'm not talking about those. So this isn't the best 10 teams over the last decade. It's the 10 best Super Bowl champs ranked. And I'm going to start with number 10 being the 2011 New York Giants. Worst record of the 10, 9 and 7. Beat the Patriots for the second time. This team wasn't as strong as the 2007 team that knocked off the unbeaten Patriots. You had Tuck and you had Strahan. Older group, Eli, not as good of a season.

They still won the division though, so they hosted a wild card playoff game that year. They come in at number 10. Number 9, 2012 Baltimore Ravens.

10 and 6. It required a lot of luck to get to where they needed to go. You needed Raheem Moore to fall down in the secondary. They won that Super Bowl. You had an older Ray Lewis who was dealing with the arm injury.

He kind of looked like a cyborg when he played. It was the end of Ed Reed as well. Terrific coaching job. Terrific playoff performance by Flacco to get them there. But among the Super Bowl champs, the Ravens come in at number 9. Number 8, 2010 Green Bay Packers. 10 and 6 as well. Just the 10th team in NFL history to win as a wild card team.

So to be on the road the entire way, they did so in 2010. And in the Super Bowl beat the Pittsburgh Steelers. I give them the edge over the Ravens and Giants just because they have Aaron Rodgers. You got a Hall of Fame caliber player on defense of Charles Woodson.

I thought it was a strong opponent, a champion. You're playing in the Super Bowl. The Packers at number 8, their champion, slotted there.

Number 7, 2018 New England Patriots. This was a banged up team. Gronk, you needed, it was the NFL equivalent to load management. You didn't want to run him over the middle because if people go for his legs, if safeties dive at him, he might be out for a month. He had concussions as well.

So he played sparingly, but when he did play he was effective. He had the biggest catch in that Super Bowl that we're going to remember for its lack of offense. 13 to 3. Oldest Patriots championship team.

They come in at number 7. Number 6, 2015 Denver Broncos. Historic defense.

Offense, not so much. You got Brock Osweiler playing a quarter of the season. Peyton Manning, just go look at the numbers he had that year. He was on the very tail end.

It was his last legs. They found a way to beat the Panthers. Von Miller, he was the Super Bowl MVP and for good reason.

He deserved it. Denver at number 6. Number 5, this one might surprise you. Kansas City Chiefs, 2019. Love Mahomes, probably going to win some more Super Bowls, but there was a lot of doubt every single time they played. Divisional round, you're trailing the Houston Texans. What was the score, Robert? Was it 24-0?

Something like that. Trailing by a ton had to come all the way back. Trailing by double digits against Tennessee.

Trailing in the fourth quarter by multiple possessions to San Francisco. So there was a lot of doubt, a lot of talent on offense. Great quarterback play.

Rush defense, not the greatest thing at times. Maybe not the greatest running backs, but the Chiefs are in the top 5 of the decade, I feel, coming in at number 5. Number 4, it's the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles. 12-4 on the season, and yes, they had Nick Foles win at quarterback, but I think that tells you everything you need to know about the quality of team. Football's team sport. Nick Foles, he stepped in to play because that's how much talent he had around him. It's the only team I can look at in the last decade and say realistically they may have had the best offensive line and defensive line in the sport. Anywhere else you could say that?

I don't think so. Philadelphia had great weapons, great defense, just a complete team. They won with Nick Foles out-dueling Tom Brady.

It wasn't one of those, eh, schlub-em-up games. No, it was a shootout and Foles out-did Brady. Just imagine if Carson Wentz was playing.

He was going to be an MVP before he got hurt in the final month of the year. The Eagles in 2017 come in at number 4. Number 3, the 2014 New England Patriots. They were a 12-4 team.

You got a ton of talent. They came from behind to win the Super Bowl. It might have been. If you're thinking the best Super Bowls of the decade, in terms of the quality of teams playing against each other, that Seahawks-Patriots Super Bowl I believe to be the best one. Maybe not the best finish because you had the overtime game in 2016. You have the historical effect of the Eagles and the Chiefs winning. But quality of game, intrigue, level of talent on the field, that Patriots-Seahawks Super Bowl with the Malcolm Butler pick at the end, I think it's as good as it gets. Patriots, number 3 on the list, that 14 team. Number 2, the 2013 Seattle Seahawks.

It's a real question, Robert. Best defense of the decade. Would you go Denver Broncos in 15 or Seahawks Legion of Boom in 13?

Where would you go? I'd probably definitely lead on the Seahawks. I think they were just a better all-around defense. Just so many stars all across the place. I've often said they need to make a documentary out of this team because of the personalities you have on the field. Sherman, Chancellor, Earl Thomas, Wagner, Michael Bennett.

Just so many personalities all over the place. Russell Wilson at quarterback, Marshawn Lynch at running back, Pete Carroll the coach. It is the widest margin of a Super Bowl win that decade. And I think the Broncos were a favorite in that game in the Meadowlands. Seahawks won big in 2013. They're the number 2 Super Bowl team last 10 years. Number 1, it's the 2016 Patriots.

Kind of a similar thought as the Eagles in 2017. Jimmy Garoppolo was the backup quarterback. They had Jacoby Brissett as the 3rd string quarterback. Garoppolo came in, won all of his starts at the beginning of the year.

Brady then comes in, revenge tour season because he felt he was screwed over by the league office because of Deflategate. The Patriots in 2016, the most talented running back. You have James White you're throwing the ball to out of the backfield. It's Edelman out wide.

It's Amendola. It's Gronkowski I think at the peak of his powers. And also they had the best record of any Super Bowl team in the last decade. With a 14-2 mark. So the Patriots, number 1 last decade in 2016. The team that beat Atlanta in overtime. The number 1 Super Bowl team of the 2010s. That is what we're calling it, right? 2010s, do you like that better than I've heard the 20-teens? I don't think that sounds as good.

I think the 2010s is the way to go. Adam Gold he's going to join us. Early afternoon host in just a few minutes. Wes Durham going to be here next hour. And a reminder, we're going to have a best of show tomorrow. And next week, here's what we have lined up tentatively. It's going to be Dave Goren on the day that the NSMA was going to be held in Winston-Salem. Recognizing the best sportswriters and sportscasters across the country. He's going to have an NSMA takeover edition of the show.

Bringing in just the biggest heavy hitters in broadcasting. It's going to be a really neat show. Darren's going to be in here on Tuesday and Wednesday. And on Thursday, Wake Forest is going to take over this show.

Tentatively. So you'll hear from Stan Cotton, Larry Sorensen. You'll hear from John Curry hopefully, the Wake Forest Director of Athletics. And maybe some coaches.

Coach Clawson, Coach Forbes, and all of Wake Forest's great coaches. So that's what we have tentatively planned as I'm going to take a little bit of vacation. Head off to Tennessee for a brief stretch. Spend some time in Myrtle Beach. Robert, you're going to spend some time out too, aren't you? Yeah, I'm headed down to Myrtle right after this show and then headed to Clearwater. I didn't know you were going to Myrtle Beach.

Just to pick some friends up, that's it. Sounds like a lot of fun. We're looking forward to all that.

When John Swafford is ultimately replaced as he set to retire in 2021, what's going to be the criteria for ACC Commissioner? Adam Gold is going to be here to discuss with us next. We must talk.

Go ahead, go ahead. Talk. Back to the Drive with Josh Graham on Sports Hub Triad. With John Swafford announcing that he's going to retire in 2021, I started thinking about what is the criteria for his replacement? Is it a different job in 2020 than it was in 1997? There are different challenges for sure that you face in college sports today that you probably didn't face in 97.

Social media being the most obvious thing. The proliferation of digital and internet qualities kind of make you speak, kind of make you marvel at the way Swafford has been ahead of things, the way that he's evolved over the last 23 years as the commissioner of the conference. But pay for play is going to be still a major issue. Of course, you have the Florida law that's going to go into effect in about a year regarding NIL. There's going to be meetings with decision makers and the Board of Governors with the NCAA that try to propose legislation for NIL to go into effect and vote on next January.

So you got to be somebody who's ready to deal with the issues that come with that before we're thinking in that regard. But aside from that, which are just broad qualifications for somebody of the ACC commissioner's stature, I think you need to be familiar with the ACC in the sense of you were either a director of athletics in the league or spent a lot of time in the league office. And fortunately, there are a lot of people who have been through Greensboro's doors and have blossomed to have fantastic careers in other conferences. You've had tremendous directors of athletics, and when you look at a lot of the commissioners in ACC history, granted there are only four of them, but the other ones, they spent time as in AD or spent time in the ACC at one of its schools before ultimately being hired.

So I think that is the baseline. AD experience, if not in the ACC, well, you maybe spent some time in the ACC offices in Greensboro. And here are the top two candidates I have for a potential replacement, it being a year out. Number one, Bernadette McGlade. She is the ACC, or excuse me, the Atlantic 10s commissioner currently. Her background, she spent, I want to say, close to a dozen years at Georgia Tech. She spent another 10 years in the ACC offices, and she's obviously the commissioner of a major conference. On top of that, she, once upon a time, was a Tar Heel basketball player in the late 1970s, early 1980s. So she owns a degree, I think both undergraduate and graduate from North Carolina, spent time with the ACC at Georgia Tech. It's actually 17 years, as I have it in front of me now, and spent time in the league office too, so it seems like a tremendous fit there.

The second one, and this is the name off the air and people I've been talking to, has continued to come up. Michael Kelly, current AD at USF, very similar personality type to John Swafford, very close relationship to John Swafford, working in the ACC offices, spent time at Wake Forest as well as the director of athletic operations and facilities at Wake Forest. And on top of that, if you just look at the guy's credentials, he's the only person to serve as the lead local executive for three different Super Bowls.

Did so for a Super Bowl in Tampa Bay, did so for a Super Bowl in South Florida, and another in Jacksonville, and a former director of the 99 Men's Basketball Final Four. Like, when you look at things that he's done, familiar with the ACC, familiar with Wake Forest and the Triad, this is a guy who gets it and has just a terrific track record. So aside from those who are already deputies, and there are a few of them in the ACC offices currently under John Swafford, including Amy Yakola, who we've gotten to know the last few years, Bernadette Maclade and Michael Kelly both come to mind. If you're looking at current ADs, Dan Radekiewicz has been around for a while at Clemson, maybe Whit Babcock, who's been really good AD at Virginia Tech. If you want to think outside the box, Jax Warbrick might be a bit too old, kind of like with Kevin White, who's an awesome AD, 69 years old. Jax Warbrick is 66, and if you're looking for somebody who has experience dealing with a ton of things, I mean, if you're managing Notre Dame football, you have the ties with the other sports to the ACC, you got to be a kick-ass AD, and he really is. When you talk about the top ADs in college sports, Swarbrick's on the short list every single time that's brought up.

So that might be an out-of-the-box candidate. If the ACC wants to further the agenda of potentially trying to get Notre Dame to be a football member, I don't think Swarbrick, being the commissioner, would hurt at all. Also, it's worth noting, he would be the second commissioner to come in as the Notre Dame AD. Gene Corrigan is remembered as a Virginia AD, but after leaving Virginia, he went to Notre Dame before becoming the commissioner in 1987.

So those are just a few names to throw out there. Maybe I'll run it past Wes Durham, who will join us in about 10 minutes from the ACC network. Baseball.

It's coming back. We're excited. Robert's even excited. I've gotten Robert engaged into baseball. In the past, I've known Robert for years. Doesn't care about baseball whatsoever, doesn't understand baseball, but through the eyes of watching the NC Dinos each and every day in the KBO, because we haven't had any other sports to watch, essentially, Robert now has an interest. And when you have an interest, you start asking questions.

The same way, like when you're growing up, you ask your grandpa or ask your dad things about sports. Hey, what's this? What's that? Robert's been doing so on the air, week after week, just asking me general, random things about baseball as, what do we call this segment? Is it Baseball for Dummies with Robert Walsh? Just Baseball for Dummies.

There you go. Diddly Squad Robert doesn't know diddly squad about baseball. Strike one. When Robert hears, strike out, he thinks all about his failed past relationships. Strike two. When Robert hears, breaking ball, he winces. Oh.

Gas? Get the point. Strike three, you're out. While everyone else is swinging for the fences, Robert is simply trying to get on base. Swing. Bada, bada, bada. Swing. Swing.

Bada, bada, bada. This is Baseball for Dummies. All right, what questions do you have for me, Robert?

What can I help you with? First off, I know you know that I'm still in the search of my baseball team. I was a fan of the Braves growing up, but I feel like that's too easy and too geographically close, as none of my favorite teams currently are anywhere even near where I live. So I was wondering if you could give me a major league team that reflects the front office design of another one of my favorite teams, the Ravens. They build through the draft. They have a good front office. They're strong on defense. Are there any teams that kind of meet those requirements? First off, it wouldn't be building through the draft.

That is a football expression. The equivalent to that in baseball would be having a great farm system. And when you're talking about the best farm systems in Major League Baseball, so having just a great pipeline of guys, the White Sox had it last year, and we saw a lot of them playing for the Winston-Salem Dash and for even the AAA team in Charlotte. Luis Robert, really good. Nick Madrigal, they're supposed to make the team this year. Carlos Rodon, former NC State left-hander came through here as well. The kid's last name is Madrigal? Madrigal. Oh, that's not nearly as cool.

Pretty close. The Tampa Bay Rays, they're a team. Usually you see smaller market franchises have to build through the farm system because you're not going to land the big, flashy free agent. So Tampa Bay is one of those. They don't have a great ballpark situation.

People don't go to the games at the drop, but they tend to do so, and they're going to be a very competitive team this year. San Diego Padres have another one. Robert, you might be familiar with Whiteville, North Carolina. Mackenzie Gore almost went to East Carolina, but then he became a top-ten pick. He was a commit to ECU, went to be a top-ten pick, though, right out of high school to the Padres.

So that's another one I'll throw out in terms of really good farm systems. Defensive-wise, okay, Tampa Bay probably checks that box, and I think the White Sox are going to be pretty good defensively, too. Cool. You know, I love pop culture, and I love being able to identify that, oh, so-and-so likes this team.

Oh, Jack Nicholson likes the Lakers. Oh, so on and so forth. Who are the super fans of baseball for specific teams? Okay, there are so many that come to mind.

I guess the... What form of entertainment most suits you? Uh, movies is fine, any actors, actresses. Billy Crystal is a huge Yankee fan, but that speaks to the demographic of baseball, unfortunately. Like, Jerry Seinfeld and Jon Stewart are the biggest Mets fans I can think of. Bill Maher is a part owner in the Mets. Ludacris, huge Braves fan. Michael Phelps, I'm an Orioles fan, so Michael Phelps sometimes goes to the games. Yeah, he loves the Baltimore sports. Gets some swings in. Stephen King, he'll throw out a first pitch most years for the Red Sox. I'm not sure if that does anything for you, but those are a few that come to mind.

No, no, I dig that, I dig that. And trying to learn more about some players so I can get a better grasp of baseball's past and future. Who is Brian Wilson? The pitcher, not the Beach Boys performer? Correct.

Got it. This is not Beach Boys for Dummies, so that is very accurate. You need to check out that John Cusack movie where he plays Brian Wilson, by the way. Really good, came out in the last few years. I forget the name of it, but it's really good.

You can find it. Brian Wilson is known for his beard. Yes, that's what drew me to him. He's also the guy who started the sports movement of saying, got team. Oh, got him.

That's right. He started that. You can find a lot of clips of him doing that. He'll strike someone out and be like, got him. Really good personality, will go on TV shows. Sometimes he would even make his beard, he would gray it up and silver it up to make him look like a shipboat captain.

Just a really great personality. He was a closer for the San Francisco Giants. Is he still playing right now? He is not. He also was a closer for the Dodgers as well.

Cool deal. Anyway, there's Baseball for Dummies. One of the ACC Network's leading voices, Wes Durham, will join the show to discuss John Swafford's legacy with us next. What are you talking about?

What's he talking about? I'm talking about the one and only Josh Graham on Sports Hub Triad. One of the central pieces of John Swafford's legacy. Swafford, by the way, getting set to retire a year from now is going to be the ACC Network.

So I think it's just fitting. One of the perfect people to have on today is the voice or one of the two voices from Packer and Durham. Of course, Wes Durham is now with us here. And Wes, I think you're perfect as well because of your dad and the connection he had to North Carolina, John Swafford being a football player there, and then the AD a year before a guy named Mike Jordan stepped on campus. And he left a year before a guy named Vince Carter got finished playing in Chapel Hill.

And it's just interesting that Vince announces his retirement today the same day that Swafford announces when he will be retiring. You have such a vast understanding for this league. So would I be wrong to suggest, aside from players and coaches, that Swafford is one of the three, one of the four most impactful people in the history of this league?

Oh, wow, Josh. I certainly think the tenure makes it very plausible that that is the case, yes. I think also the things that his legacy will be marked by, you know, expansion, the television network, the real surge of football across the board in this league through expansion and through just facilities and resources.

But also remember this, too. I think the two key qualities about the commissioner I think were really, really valuable to the ACC in his tenure. One, I think he showed great patience at times and it paid off for the league many times, including the television network on the heels of national championships in football and basketball, right? The second thing is that I always thought that he had one of the traits that I had been told that any great commissioner always had, and that was you knew how to read the room and you were a good listener. And I think the room, his ability to handle the room and understand the room should never be undersold.

I think the room could be the president's. The rooms could be the faculty athletic reps, which I think people who followed this league or are fans of this league might not realize how much cachet faculty athletic reps hold in this conference, which makes it what it is from an academic standpoint, I think. And the other thing is he knew how to handle coaches' rooms, football coaches, basketball coaches, and the like. And you got to remember, when you step into a basketball coach's meeting room at the ACC as the commissioner, you're stepping into quite a room now. You know, remember a lot of the things that John Swafford oversaw in his tenure, the expansion from 9 to 12 was probably the most arduous because of the way it occurred. But when you lack, when you hatch the idea of playing 20 conference basketball games in that room full of basketball coaches, how do you think that went?

Okay. I mean, so you had to know how the room was going to set and how the room was going to need to be tweaked, if you will. And I think that really is a quality that he had. And he had it in Chapel Hill. I mean, remember now we're getting Mack Brown 2.0 here. You got to remember Mack Brown was 2 and 20 in his first two years in Chapel Hill and John Swafford preached patience with the football program. And a lot of people were like, no, no, no, no, we're not ready for patience.

And in fact, I would tell you, and you've probably heard me talk about it, you got to have some patience if you're a fan at times. And I learned that by watching, you know, the way he handled Mack Brown's first couple of years in Chapel Hill as the athletics director. Because when he made the move with Dick Crum to let Dick Crum go as the football coach, that was not an easy decision from a financial perspective at the University of North Carolina. And Mack Brown was brought in and went 2 and 20 in his first two years. And a lot of people weren't happy at all.

But I think the commissioner at that point showed me, and I was just a 22-year-old college grad at the time when that happened. But I saw the patience that he used in bringing Mack Brown to Chapel Hill and letting it play out to see that Carolina would have great football success under Mack's tenure. And now as he's returned to, you know, it looks like it's possible again.

But I think those are the things that a lot of people are going to miss on the surface because they're going to think about the landmark things, the 9 to 12, the 12 to 15, the television network. Don't also underestimate, too, his value in the room. And I heard this from Mike Slive, God bless him, before he passed away, that John was a very integral part in the CFP.

Oh, 100%. You know, he had that seat at the table and it was critical the ACC get there, and expansion played a role in that. And, you know, Commissioner Slive was very candid with me about the value that John had in that room to bring some things to the table that otherwise might not have been brought to the room because you had Delaney, you had Slive, you had Swofford, but you also had Bob Bowlsby at the time, you had Larry Scott, and then obviously Jack Swarbrick was playing a role as well as the athletics director at Notre Dame.

Well, the initial, what I've read in oral history is a couple of them about the CFP, the initial proposals that were shot down for how the playoff would look were put together by Swofford and Slive, and Swofford, I think at that time, he was the BCS coordinator when he was putting it together. So, yeah, that's understated, I think, as well, his impact in that realm. But I want to go back to a word you described when the league expanded from 9 to 12. You used the word arduous.

Some would use that word, others maybe would use the word like messy. That was actually a word David Thiel said when he joined us a few hours ago talking about potential areas he might have regrets in. Anytime you're in a leadership position, whether you're a principal at a school or if you're certainly running a radio station or being a commissioner like Swofford's been for as long as he has, there are going to be mistakes that are made just naturally.

Right. Do you think that might be an area he expresses regret, if not where? Well, no, I think the league had to go to 12. I think that what happened in the move from 9 to 12, and I joked with him a couple of years ago, I can't wait to read it in the book, okay? It was very public, wasn't it?

No. It just played out very publicly. It turned very public the night it went down, but it crossed itself back because of the move of the attorney general in the Commonwealth of Virginia. And when the Commonwealth's attorney took his stance that Virginia would not be allowed to vote for the expansion unless Virginia Tech were included, that's when things changed. And then on the back end of that, the original idea was Syracuse, Miami, Boston College. That was the original plan for the ACC to go from 9 to 12, right? And what happened was that when it reached the kind of crescendo on the voting prospect, a couple of different things happened. And one of those was that Virginia was not going to be allowed to vote for expansion unless Virginia Tech was included because the Commonwealth's attorney, and I'm short storing this, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. So what happened was that coincided with Jim Boeheim going on outside the lines following Sports Center that night and Bob Lee asking him about going to the ACC. And he said, I have no intention, again paraphrasing, I really don't have any intention of going to the ACC. I'm going to recommend to our president we don't do it because I love the Big East. No value in Greensboro back in 2003. Well, this was long before some of that stuff.

I'm not a big fan of Denny's. Well, but whatever the line was, that created the crevice that then allowed the Commonwealth's attorney in Virginia to exercise kind of that value of Virginia, you're not voting for this unless Virginia Tech is going in. So that political posturing made by the Commonwealth's attorney, in fact, that guy was applauded the night Virginia Tech or the day Virginia Tech opened ACC football play. They let him come out and toss the coin. I mean, as I recall, and some of that might be a little foggy, but nonetheless, the commissioner knew that the expansion had to go.

That had to happen, Josh. To save the ACC, I mean, you needed to have the football portfolio or else, I mean, where you sit right now, the ACC network, it would not exist without football expanding, right? Right, and then the next time the expansion occurred, he also knew then that the league could be vulnerable and they had to avoid being vulnerable because there was going to be, you got to remember, the time they went 12 to 15 was also at the same time when the SEC was going to add and the Big Ten was going to add. And they just lost Maryland. Right, and there is a dynamic there that was in play where depending on what rumor you might want to subscribe to, there was a possibility that some of the more marquee institutions in this league might be looking for another home. Specifically, Florida State.

No, no, no, no, no. The Florida State situation to me was because a Board of Trustees member elected to get on the Saturday morning first tee at the Golden Eagle Country Club in Tallahassee and tell everybody that that's what he was going to recommend for the Board of Trustees meeting. But what's most important, and I think it's another thing, I'm glad you bring up the college football playoff.

I'm glad you bring up the type of person he is, the leader, the listening, the patience, because that's the perspective that you have getting to know the man. But also, let's not forget when you're talking about the football piece and how important it was, maintaining it is such a big deal too, and that's talking about the grant of rights, which goes through 35, 36. That I don't think is nearly expressed enough, but I think it's just as important as talking about getting it right with Virginia Tech and getting it right. I mean, Miami probably not as successful as they thought it would be when they got there. Oh, by God, it's going to be Florida State and Miami every single year in Charlotte, and we've never gotten it once. But those programs, being in Miami's case a national program and Virginia Tech an awesome fan base and an awesome football program, it's what needed to happen in order where we were headed to make it a plausible television portfolio or at least quality enough to have a linear network.

No question. And I think the other part is that this league needed to maintain its spot in the road, and it had to be more than just basketball. And it's turned out to be a whole hell of a lot more than just basketball. It's turned out to be a quality football league, a quality league for women's basketball, a quality league in soccer. It might be the best soccer league in the country. And by the way, it's also maintained one of the values that were determined at Sledge Field Country Club in the 1950s, and that is it was going to be an academic league as well.

It was going to create values not only on the field but off the field. I want to ask you something that is rather than get into specific people that could be a fit to succeed somebody of John Swafford's stature. I'm interested in what you make of criteria, because prior to coming on the air, this has been something that I've talked to at least a half dozen people about today going back and forth, and it's been kind of a point of contention where, okay, should you hire somebody, should it be a requirement that you've spent time at an ACC school or in the ACC offices in 2020, considering how tribal sports has become and now the league having 15 members, can you hire somebody who right now is a sitting AD within the league the way that they did in 1997?

How do you view the criteria for this job and how different that criteria might be than, say, 1997? Well, I think you have to have somebody that understands how the 21st century of college athletics is working, okay? So I think there is a difference, regardless of how people want to lay it out, there's a difference between Power Five and Group of Five, okay? And I think it's important that that is understood, and you're probably getting ready to see it play out in a variety of different ways because of the pandemic, okay? I think that is really important. I think the other thing too is you have to remember the footprint of this league is a lot different now than it was in 1997 because it's 10 states, right? And I think the 10 states are all interesting. You have to remember the ACC has more top 50 television markets in its footprint than any other league in the country. That's something else that not everybody else has the value of. This television network is in its infancy.

It's been stymied a little bit by the pandemic, but it doesn't mean that the quality of the programming and the quality of the live events will change once it's resumed. I think you have to have some degree of value and knowledge there. The other part about it is this, and you've probably heard this back at the ACC tournament because I think Ed Harden wrote about it. This is a pretty varied landscape now. Look at the presidents that are less than five to seven years in office at these campus institutions, okay? And another one just flipped. Martin Jarman was one of the more recent ones.

He's now at UCLA. But look at the presidents, not the ADs, Josh, the presidents. Because the presidents are going to have a major say in who the next commissioner is going to be, and that's also something to remember. This is not just some, you know, we poll everybody who's in the room on a regular basis. The presidents, and also remember the structure of the ACC was changed here recently, too, with the Board of Governors being created, right?

That's something to keep in mind as this process unfolds. Look, there are a lot of people that are qualified for this. There are people who certainly are athletic director at Power Five institutions who have ties to the ACC. The one thing I can tell you from a historical perspective is there's been no commissioner of this league that did not have any degree of connection to the ACC, that always had a connection to the ACC. Jim Weaver was the director of athletics at Wake Forest when he became the commissioner. Bob James had played football at the University of Maryland, had been the commissioner of the Big Eight when he came to the commissioner's job. Gene Corrigan is a graduate of Duke who coached at Duke, was later the AD at Virginia, and came here as the AD from Notre Dame.

John Swafford was a student athlete at North Carolina, a Morehead Scholar at Carolina, later worked at the University of Virginia, and then was the athletics director and came to the ACC office. I think you can find quality, quality people who have ACC ties to be the next commissioner. There are a lot of wonderful candidates for the job, and then remember too, Kevin Warner is the new commissioner of the Big Ten who is an out-of-the-box hirer, was working for the Minnesota Vikings as the Will Family's number one guy, basically running the Minnesota Vikings of the National Football League, but Kevin had a legacy of working with Mike Slive in Conference USA in Chicago.

There is something to be said about those type folks. I mean, sure, you can Michael Kelly, you can Bernadette McGlade. Shane Lyons is the athletics director at West Virginia who worked in the ACC office, who later worked for Malmord, Alabama. I mean, he's got tremendous experience.

I'm sure Amy Ucola, who is the, you know, deputy commissioner now for external affairs is a very attractive candidate. Dan Radacovich at Clemson, Jim Clements at Clemson, I think, has been mentioned by David Teel. You know, Jack Swarbrick at Notre Dame, sure.

There are a lot of people. I mean, and I'm leaving, you know, a handful of them off the list. So, because, you know, that's just at the top of my mind right now. It doesn't mean that there won't be somebody else involved who maybe has, look at the hire of John Wildhack as the athletics director at Syracuse here recently. I mean, that's a guy who has a major television background who comes to work as an alma mater.

How big is television going to be? How big is branding and marketing going to be in ACC going forward? And remember this too, Josh, there are two major administrative issues that are facing the next commissioner of the ACC. One is name, image and likeness.

The other is the transfer portal. And the commissioner told Mark and I on the show in the month of February, the NCAA has become a reactive organization. You know, you have channeled information and commentary throughout this pandemic, but along the way, do we not think that it's possible that the Power Five and maybe two or three other institutions could ultimately one day wave goodbye to the NCAA as a result of some of the things you've seen?

The next commissioner of the ACC has to have some acumen about that possibility if in fact it is potentially in play. Really have enjoyed the return of Packer and Durham, Wes. Thanks, we're on a technological high wire, Josh, but I appreciate that.

No, no, I have. Earlier this morning, you had Dave Clausen on. Mm-hmm, he was great, as always.

Talking food, talking to Sam Hartman, a lot of good stuff there. Do you know what we can expect on the big show tomorrow? The commissioner will be with us at 9.15. Wow. Bronco Mendenhall will be with us at 9 o'clock and I think David Teal will join us as well on the show.

How about that? Great work as always on the show. Thanks. Thanks, Josh. We'll see you soon.

Hope we get normal in the fall. Very well put. That is Wes Durham. Oh, I forgot to ask him if he was being considered for the ACC commissioner job. Robert, what do you got in ticket to the house today? I have him in queue, but he said the answer to that is no. Oh, you have him in queue.

He says no. Good. Good job. Thanks, Josh. We'll see you soon.

Hope we get normal in the fall. Very well put. Robert, what do you got in ticket to the house today? I have him in queue. He says no. Good. Good to know. I can pass that along. Put that on the ACC network, ESPN scroll. You've heard of chicken of the sea. How about chicken of the tree?