Discerning Medical Technology and the Sanctity of Life

Discerning medical technology in the sanctity of life. That is the topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Real View Radio Program, where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ.

I'm David Wheaton, the host. You can connect with us by visiting our website, thechristianrealview.org, calling toll-free 1-888-646-2233, or by writing to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota 55331 Advances in medical technology over the decades have saved countless lives, whether through new types of surgeries or imaging therapies, medications and so on. Of course, it hasn't all been positive. Consider the harmful effects of so many medications and, more recently, the COVID so-called vaccine. The advances in fertility and prenatal technologies have been astounding as well. Procedures like artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization, or IVF, have helped childless couples have children. Or what about when a homosexual couple wants to use these technologies to pay for a baby through artificial insemination, IVF, or surrogacy? Or what about pre-implantation genetic diagnosis, or PGD, which screens for genetic abnormalities before birth and also allows for sex selection of the child? January is Sanctity of Life Month, and so we will devote today's program to questions around fertility technologies and the greatest injustice in our country, the murder of around 65 million preborn babies since 1973, when abortion was legalized. Colleen Tronson, executive director of Metro Women's Center in Minnesota, will be our guest. She will also give perspective on why pro-life candidates haven't fared well recently in elections, in light of the overturning of Roe vs. Wade by the U.S. Supreme Court in June 2022. Just a note before the interview begins.

This program will contain biological reproductive terms that some parents may want to keep from their children until an appropriate time. If this applies to you, we encourage you to listen to the program on your own first. Now to the interview with Colleen Tronson. Colleen, thank you for coming on the Christian Real View Radio program today. You shared your story of what your life was like before God saved you back in a program on July 2, 2022. Listeners can go there to our archives to hear that interview. But for new listeners today or others who may have forgotten what you said, could you briefly share part of that story again? Well, thank you so much for having me today, David.

I'd be happy to share God's grace in my life. I was actually raised Roman Catholic. I grew up in North Dakota, and Roe vs. Wade became the law of the land in 1973. And in 1977, I got pregnant and I was terrified. I did not want to be pregnant, did not want anyone to know I was sexually active. And even though I had been very pro-life in the sense that I believed that there was life in the womb, I panicked and ended up going to an abortion clinic and took the life of my unborn child. And I believe, like a lot of women, if we just have the abortion, life will go back to normal.

Well, for me, it didn't go back to normal. Life got very complicated. I got into looking for love in all the wrong places, like the song says, and by the time I was 21, I had two more abortions and had been involved in a lot of unbiblical relationships. When I was 21, I found out that I was pregnant again, and this again was not good news. I had always been able to solve the problem before by abortion, but this time I was out of money and out of resources and found myself in a place where I couldn't solve it. I ended up talking to an organization and ironically went to Catholic Charities here in Minneapolis and said, do you guys do abortions? And they were like, no, but maybe we can help you with adoption.

And I had never, honest to goodness, considered that option before. And they began to talk to me about considering the other person involved in my crisis, and that was my unborn child. As I began to think about him and his life and what he needed, I began to feel hopeful, like there was something good that could come out of this situation. So I had to face a lot of things during that time, had to begin to look for a family for him. I eventually found a family for him, and the adoptive mom was my labor companion when he was born.

And when I saw him, he was, of course, the most beautiful baby in the world. And I had to kind of rethink everything that I had thought about making a plan for him, but I knew it was the right plan. I still wasn't a believer at this time.

I was still unregenerate and headed right back out into the world of what I was doing before. And then by God's providence, I met a man who looked at me and he said, you look like you need a friend. And I did need a friend. I needed Jesus. And he talked to me about the gospel, and he shared with me that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, not so that I could be condemned, but that I could be saved. He shared with me that no matter what my past was, he shared with me where it says there's no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. And in my heart, I knew that it was true, but I didn't know how it could be true. I knew that he was right, and I knew that he was right to confront me with the fact that I was a sinner and that I needed a savior. And so I trusted Christ.

I asked the Lord to forgive me for my sins, and by the shed blood of Christ, I was saved. But there was a lot of work left to do in terms of healing from the past choices that I had made. I went through a series of classes called conquerors to sort through the effect that abortion had had on my life. And there were a lot of different effects that it had, and God was gracious to help me. One of the things that I learned was that life can be the same after losing a trinket, but not after losing a treasure. And I lost three treasures when I lost my children to abortion. But I gained the greatest treasure of all through Jesus Christ, and I'm so thankful for that.

I ended up marrying that guy, and I'm grateful that we just celebrated 40 years of marriage. And God was very gracious to me in that he allowed me to have two children with my husband, and he didn't have to do that. So he's a very merciful God, and he was very gracious to me. And that's not to say that he's not merciful and gracious to others who maybe haven't had children after abortion. It's truly an amazing story of God's grace in your life, Colleen.

Really, everyone who comes to Saving Faith is an amazing story of God's grace. But again, if listeners want to hear a fuller version of that, they can go back to the archives on thechristianrealview.org and click on the program from July 2, 2022. Colleen Tronson is our guest today on the program. She is the executive director of Metro Women's Center. They serve the Lord by offering hope and help to families experiencing pregnancy-related challenges.

We have a link to their website at thechristianrealview.org. Colleen, as I was preparing for our conversation, there are just so many different types of medical technologies with regards to fertility and pregnancy. Nowadays, there's artificial insemination.

I'll go over these and give some definitions of what they are. There's in vitro fertilization known as IVF. We'll also get into surrogacy. This is becoming popular now in the news where you have homosexual couples, particularly homosexual men, basically renting a womb, to put it bluntly, so they can have children. Artificial insemination, this definition from gotquestions.org, is a medical procedure in which a man's sperm is implanted into a woman's uterus at precisely the right time and precisely the right location in order to increase the chances of pregnancy.

That's been around for a fairly long time. It's used in farming practices as well, dog breeding even, so that's a pretty well-known one. But let's keep that in mind as we talk about a more involved one that has more ethical questions surrounding it of in vitro fertilization. For those who don't know what that is, this is the process of joining a sperm and an egg together outside of a woman's body and then placing the fertilized egg in the woman's body so that she can become pregnant. This is a Christian website that has one-page factual descriptions of questions people ask, and they say about IVF, often couples decide to harvest more eggs than they plan to use, so they fertilize more eggs than are going to be implanted. And then these embryos that have really conceived if a sperm has gone into the egg, they end up being destroyed or frozen for later use. However, if a couple conceives immediately, they may never need to use the frozen embryos, which would then end up being destroyed. The Bible does not give us permission to destroy innocent human life.

This would be murder, according to God questions. Let's get some of your thoughts on artificial insemination and the more ethically challenging procedure of in vitro fertilization, Colleen. Whenever we discuss anything like this, I think we first have to lead with compassion for those who are struggling with the issue of infertility or some of those issues that bring them to the place of thinking about artificial insemination or IVF. And there are real grief and loss issues among people around those issues and real emotions, and sometimes those emotions can drive us to think about things that are technically available to us, but sometimes we don't stop and think biblically about whether or not we should use some of that technology. The first premise that I've been thinking about is that every life is of infinite worth to God, whether it is a frozen embryo or whether it is implanted in the womb of a woman through artificial insemination, every life is of infinite worth to God.

We always have to ask ourselves what is the motive for doing what we're doing and ask some questions about what is the emotional toll on the couple doing this. Sometimes artificial insemination doesn't work and there's loss around that. I also think about if you're using an egg and a sperm from other people, does that violate the marriage relationship? So just some of those questions to think about before you consider artificial insemination.

I think IVF probably raises the most ethical questions in my mind. Once a sperm and an egg meet, a human life begins. And science shows us at the moment that that happens, there's actually like a flash of electricity seen in different videos where you see that when those egg and that sperm are joined together and they create a human life at that moment, that baby's genetic makeup is completed. And when those cells start dividing rapidly in normal fetal development, that fertilized egg will make its way through the fallopian tube and enter the uterus where it implants and begins its journey of becoming more developed and eventually a baby is produced. But in IVF, once that egg is fertilized and the embryo is produced, it's frozen. So conception has already happened in terms of the egg and the sperm becoming an embryo. I think we have to be careful not to put ourselves in the driver's seat. And that often happens with some of this technology.

We want what we want. The unintended consequence of IVF could be that more fertilized embryos are stored than a couple would want to use. There also comes that next step of when you decide to implant that embryo, how many do you implant? Do you implant one? Do you implant five?

Do you implant two? When you do that, you run the risk of having all of them take and then you have multiple children in the womb. And you might be confronted with the idea of, you know, five babies in the womb, that's a little dangerous.

Your physician might say, you know, you might want to think about which ones you would like to sacrifice so that your health isn't at risk. So then you're faced with which children do I decide don't get to live. And so that's another consequence to think about when you get involved in IVF. I have friends who have children because of IVF.

And so, again, I want to be conscious of the emotional aspect of this, but also thinking biblically about this. There's millions of stored embryos, they call them frosties, I believe, that are unwanted now. So now we have the dilemma of what do we do with these fertilized embryos?

Do we just let them thaw out? If we do that, then we're ending those lives. I guess the biggest dilemma is, do we have the right to do what we're doing in this area? And do we stop and think about what God wants in this area? So it takes a lot of discernment and it takes a lot of wisdom.

So many of these issues are wisdom issues, you know, and God tells us in James to ask him for wisdom and he'll give it to us liberally. Before undertaking any of these medical technologies, you would want to be having really meaningful discussions with a sound pastor of your local church or other counselors in your life who can speak because these are very, very challenging decisions that are to be made that, like you say, when you choose the beginning of the way, you're also choosing the end of the way. You mentioned that these millions of frozen embryos, well, there's actually, I think they're called snowflake babies now because they were frozen, where you have situations where Christian women are saying, well, we don't want these embryos to be destroyed. That's like an abortion.

And so we are going to adopt them and bear them ourselves. So you have, instead of adopting a child at birth, okay, from a couple or a woman, now you're adopting an embryo and it's actually implanted into the womb of the adopted mother. So she's birthing a child that is not from her egg or her husband's sperm. And so you can see there's all sorts of things to consider around that. And then as we go from IVF, there's something called pre-implantation genetic diagnosis.

And again, I've got questions on this one. This is a procedure in which a woman's eggs are collected and then fertilized in a dish through in vitro fertilization, IVF, and then tested for genetic defects. And if abnormalities are found, the embryos are destroyed. Though this procedure can be used to select the gender of a child, you can actually select the sex of your child. It was never meant for this purpose and many physicians will not use it for such. So this is something where you wouldn't want to take the, quote, risk of having a child with an abnormality and you don't want to take the risk of getting one sex or the other. So you use these medical technologies to really determine what you want. What are your thoughts on this procedure called PGD?

It's very stunning, actually. This whole idea of, I want a perfect child. I want a fresh baby. I want, I think we have to be really conscious of the pride that's involved with that. You know, we're all defective in some ways.

Why do we have this quest for perfection? You know, the parents of kids with disabilities that I have known have grown immensely by raising a child with challenges, and they've had the opportunity to really press into the Lord for help and strength during those things. You know, going back a little bit to that IVF adoption, I do believe that it's better to try and bring those children to term than to just let them pass away. But in many of these cases, you know, the horse is already out of the barn. How do you take it back? You can't really change the path for those kids because they've already been conceived and frozen.

So how do you rectify that? And I think that embryo adoption is one way that you can bring those children to term and respect their lives. Colleen Tronson is our guest today. She's the executive director of Metro Women's Center in Minnesota. There are links to her organization at our website, thechristianrealview.org. We're going to take a short break for some ministry announcements, but when we return, we'll get into the issue of surrogacy and how homosexual couples are using surrogacy to have children of their own. We'll talk about the case of Dave Rubin, a popular conservative media influencer. So stay tuned.

Much more coming up. I'm David Wheaton, and you are listening to the Christian Real View Radio program. To kick off the year, we are offering a listener favorite from our store, the Christian Real View desktop calendar for a donation of any amount. The calendar is made up of five by seven cards held in a small wood block with each month's card displaying a beautiful landscape or wildlife scene of God's creation from Richard Ganzel Photography, who's also a member of our team. Each card has a verse of scripture and the days of the month. You can preview the calendar in our store at thechristianrealview.org. Normal retail is $12.99. For a limited time and while supplies last, the desktop calendar is available for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View.

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Be sure to visit our website, thechristianworldview.org, where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print letter, order resources for adults and children, and support the ministry. Discerning medical technology and the sanctity of life is our topic today, and Colleen Tronson, executive director of Metro Women's Center, is our guest. Colleen, let's get into one more issue that's becoming very common now, and it's actually been common for a long time, even in scriptures, which is called surrogacy. Again, according to the GotQuestions website, describing what surrogacy is, using a surrogate mother to bear children for a childless couple is as old as the story of Abraham and Sarah in Genesis chapter 16. Sarah could not bear children, so she gave her servant Hagar to Abraham so she could have his children.

That Hagar had Ishmael. It's becoming popular today, Colleen, with male homosexual couples. The Christian Post reported that controversy arose after political pundit Dave Rubin. He's a well-known conservative pundit who is a homosexual.

Also, it's been, with all this as an aside, with Guy Benson. You'll often see him on Fox News. I think he's the director of Town Hall, another conservative commentator who is quote-unquote married to a man. So Dave Rubin, this post goes on to say from the Christian Post, announced in March that he and his quote-unquote husband, David Janet, had fathered children through in vitro fertilization and surrogacy. The dispute over how Rubin and Janet, this homosexual couple, conceived their children was only heightened after several prominent conservative organizations such as Prager University and Blaze TV, this is again Dennis Prager and Glenn Beck's Medialitz, publicly congratulated the political figure for fathering children through IVF and surrogacy.

While Rubin once had more left-wing views, he's become more of a voice followed by conservatives and libertarians in recent years. So listen to how Dave Rubin says this process took place. When you have two men or two women, you're missing a piece, right? You got the sperm or you got the egg, but you don't have a sperm and an egg, right?

You don't have a womb. You've got to figure out some things here. I know most of you guys that are watching this are now on the more conservative side of things, and I never see any real issue with conservatives anymore and gay people, and Trump was the first, you know, first time president to run being, you know, pro-gay marriage, and I think most people just kind of want to live and let live and all that. But I know this is like a little bit weird for some people to hear, right? I get it. And by the way, to me, at some level, this is a little bit weird. Like, I've had to learn a lot of stuff and go to a lot of doctors, and it's cost a lot of money, and it's been a long sort of adventure, but basically what you're seeing there, one more time with those ultrasounds with you, those are two different wombs, and those are two different babies. So basically what we are doing is we got one egg donor, so you got to think about this.

If you need to stop right now and grab a Sharpie and make a chart, you could. So basically we've got plenty of sperm around here. That's one thing, right? But we needed an egg. So there are egg donors that are out there. These are young women who are willing to donate their eggs.

Usually you're young and healthy, and if they want to help people that otherwise can't have children, they can donate their eggs. So you basically go on all of these websites. There are all these sites, and it's sort of like Tinder or whatever app you were dating on where you're just kind of swiping through people, and you say, oh, I like the way she looks, or this girl had a great education, or some combination thereof, or this one is actually geographically close. I like this person, but they're very far.

And there are different rates and all of these things. And our feeling was that we wanted one egg donor, meaning you get a whole bunch of eggs. Well, hopefully you get a whole bunch of eggs from the egg donor. He goes on from there, but I'll stop it for now. There's so much to say about this. Just the overall rebellion against God's design. His opening statement that we have sperm, but no egg and no womb.

Well, that should be a red light right there that we're doing the wrong thing. And just notice what he says about the compromise of conservatives and pointing to Donald Trump as being an ally in this cause of homosexual quote-unquote marriages. So they took eggs from one woman, and through in vitro fertilization, Dave Rubin's sperm conceived with one egg, and quote-unquote husband David Janet's sperm was used to conceive another egg. Then if I'm understanding it correctly, these embryos were implanted into two separate women to carry the babies to term. And how they found the woman they wanted to take eggs from was like you go to an app like Tinder. This is a well-known dating app, especially for homosexuals. You swipe through various women who are there.

You check what they look like, what their education is, what their rates are. Colleen, what does this say about where our society is, that this is even something that's possible and allowable and even being congratulated by conservative organizations? Well, first of all, it reminds me of Isaiah 5-20, where it says, woe to them that call evil good and good evil, that put darkness for light and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Our culture has turned completely upside down in so many areas, whether it be marriage, whether it be the man-woman relationship, whether it be abortion, all sorts of ways our culture is upside down. And it makes me think about what God's intent was for a family.

A man and a woman joined together in marriage and children added to that marriage with joy and the creation of a family in that way was God's original intent. But we've taken it out of that context and we've made it about money. We've made wombs ready to be rented out, which I think is very dangerous. We've made women that carry children for other people to be carriers and not mothers.

So we've taken it out of that context. Our eggs are now for sale. Our sperm is now for sale. I don't believe that God ever intended for us to be able to buy children on the commodity market like that.

So whether it's two men wanting a child or two women wanting a child, it takes it outside of what God's original plan for the family was and it really cheapens the beauty of natural conception. I also think about Psalm 12.8 that says, those who freely strut about when what is vile is exalted among the children of men. Some of these things are vile and they are exalted.

Goodness is diminished and vileness is exalted. So we've reached such a point of confusion in our culture about so many things that this is just one of them. And when we think about surrogacy, especially surrogacy that involves women from other countries who are poor, I believe it's taking advantage of them, using them as carriers of the babies and then taking the children away. It doesn't really take into account the emotional and physical toll on those women.

It doesn't. And as you were speaking, I was thinking back early into Genesis before the flood where God looked down and just saw the wickedness of men, that it was everywhere. And what God must see was something so beautifully designed by him with a husband and wife bearing children and raising them in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. How it's been turned into this commodity for inherently sinful relationships.

It's something greatly to lament over and to be clear about how people can be saved and for the church to be strong and just to pray to God for his movement among people in our wicked world. Colleen Tronson joins us today here on the Christian worldview. Let's move into the topic of abortion, Colleen. Recently in the lead up to the Iowa caucus, former President Trump was asked this by a woman in attendance. For me, it all comes down to this question between you, sir, President Trump and Ron DeSantis, because you both talk a lot about pro-life, your record.

And that's my number one issue. And the cry of my heart is justice for all people. And I've been vocal and celebrating with you all of your pro-life victories from the past. But then in this campaign, you've also blamed pro-lifers for some of the GOP losses around the country.

And you've called heartbeat laws like Iowa's terrible. And so I'd just like some clarity on this because it's such an important question to me. I'd like for you to reassure me that you can protect all life, every person's right to life without compromise. So that's a great question.

I appreciate it, too. You wouldn't be asking that question, even talking about the issue, because for fifty four years they were trying to get Roe v. Wade terminated. And I did it and I'm proud to have done it. They wanted to get it back. Right. You wouldn't be have that.

There would be no question. Nobody else was going to get that done. And we did it and we did something that was a miracle.

When I walked onto the stage today, a gentleman in the back probably works for Fox. Nice guy. Said, sir, I'd like to thank you.

I said, for what? He said, you saved two million lives in the last three years. You saved two million lives. And I said, thank you very much.

I knew exactly what he meant. Two million lives. And nobody's done more in that regard to me. Now, I happen to be for the exceptions, like Ronald Reagan, with the life of the mother rape incest.

I have I just have to be there. I feel I think probably 78 percent or so, Paul, about 78 percent was Ronald Reagan. He was for it.

I was for it. But I will say this. You have to win elections.

Otherwise, you're going to be back where you were and you can't let that ever happen again. You've got to win elections. If you look at it, Iran, DeSantis, I don't know what he really believes, because, you know, you never know with a politician. And he's just another politician, as far as I'm concerned.

But his poll numbers have gone down to a level that he's going to be out of the race very soon. I don't know if that were the reason. I hope it wasn't the reason. I hope it's for other reasons. I can see a lot of other reasons why he shouldn't be. But he's doing very, very poorly. It happened to coincide with that because a lot of people say a lot of you know, if you talk five or six weeks, a lot of women don't know if they're pregnant in five or six weeks.

I want to get something where people are happy. You know, this has been tearing our country apart for 50 years. Nobody's been able to do anything. And again, you can only ask that question and you ask it brilliantly. And I understand exactly where you're coming from.

I love where you're coming from. But we still have to win elections. You know, we have some great Republicans and they're great on the issue and you would love them on the issue. And a lot of them have just been decimated in the election.

Decimated. We're going to come up with something that people want and people like. OK, you have to go with your heart first. Go with your heart, your mind. Go with it.

But you do also have to put in there a little bit. You have to win elections. I remember this. They're the radicals. We're not the radicals. In the debate with with Hillary Clinton, I said, I said, you know, she's willing to rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month.

And she even winced. Nobody wants to see that happening after a certain period of time. Nobody. They're the radicals because they're willing to kill the baby in eight months, nine months or even after birth. If you remember the former governor of Virginia, where he said you kill the baby after the ninth month or even after it's you set the baby aside. And you have a conversation with a mother and of the conversation.

Can you imagine? But these are the radicals. We're not the radicals. We are not the radicals. But we're living in a time when there has to be a little bit of a concession one way or the other. And I think, you know, I want to get I want to get it right.

I have to get it right. OK, that was nearly the whole answer from President Trump, basically saying that no one's done more than he has in the pro-life issue. He appointed Supreme Court justices that overturned Roe v. Wade. And according to him, that saved two million lives. He happens to be for exceptions like the life of the mother, rape and incest. But we have to win elections, he says.

Otherwise, we're going to be back where we were. He talked about Ron DeSantis, who signed this bill. And I looked it up. It's the, quote, SB 300 bill, the Heartbeat Protection Act, which prohibits abortions once the unborn child has a detectable heartbeat, unquote. Well, heartbeat comes about 18 days from conception. And Trump is saying that's too restrictive for voters now. Those that are very pro-life who are trying to pass bills like this restricting abortion are the ones who are losing elections. Then he talked about the Democrats being the real radicals on abortion who are more than willing to kill a baby up to nine months in the womb or even after birth. He closed by saying we're living in a time where there has to be concessions. Do you sense a shift in conservatives and specifically the Republican Party on abortion due to the trends taking place now politically with regard to abortion?

Politics are going to shift things based on the winds of change. People have been led to believe by the pro-abortion crowd that women really need abortion in order to have equality and opportunity. And they fear that not having access to abortion is not compassionate or kind. And somehow women lose something by not having the right to terminate their children. I think people have also been confused by the idea that there are no exceptions for ectopic pregnancies or natural miscarriages. And those are not abortions. Ninety-seven percent of abortions that happen in Minnesota are done just because you don't want to be pregnant at this time or for financial or for emotional reasons.

They're not done for those hard cases. So I think the drumbeat on the opposition side is to create fear that those exceptions won't ever be addressed. And that's not the case. There's always provisions for those exceptions that do require medical intervention. So the politics of it is oftentimes driven by what people believe that the media tells them or that the pro-abortion folks tell them. And people don't want to be perceived as not compassionate.

So there's that angst there about how do we vote for someone who says there's no exceptions? Colleen Tronson, the executive director of Metro Women's Center here in Minnesota, is our guest. We'll take a short break to tell you about some ministry resources.

But stay tuned, because after the break, we'll get into the growing movement of what's called abortion abolitionism, which seeks to criminalize women who intentionally take the life of their unborn child. I'm David Wheaton, and you are listening to the Christian worldview radio program. With every rising and setting of the sun, we draw one day nearer to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So writes Steve Miller in the opening line of his new book, One Day Nearer, Daily Devotions in Anticipation of Jesus' Glorious Return.

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I'm David Wheaton. Be sure to visit our website, thechristianrealview.org, where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print letter, order resources for adults and children, and support the ministry. Discerning medical technology and the sanctity of life is our topic today, and Colleen Tronson, executive director of Metro Women's Center, is our guest. Colleen, I've been noticing that there's a growing movement of what's called abortion abolitionism, and I heard an interview recently between a man named Keith Foske, who's a Christian, as he talks to a member of an organization called Steadfast Women.

Here's a short clip from that conversation. In a short blurb, tell me what the difference is between an abolitionist and a pro-life advocate. The two biggest ones that I would say for somebody who's never even heard a type of conversation The pro-life movement is secular at its foundation. So the pro-life movement does not say you have to be a Christian. Actually, most of the pro-life, your big pro-life organizations are actually run by Catholics. There's a group called atheist pro-life. There's a group called secular pro-life. Now, do I believe that there's a lot of Christians that make up the pro-life movement? I do, but as far as the movement itself, it's secular in nature.

In a lot of ways, they fight is secular. They don't fight from this is a child made in the image of God, and abortion is wrong because it is killing an image bearer of God when God says thou shalt not murder. Whereas a pro-lifer would say, well, it's a baby in the womb.

It has a heartbeat at 18 days. Science tells us that life begins at conception, and at conception, we have human rights. Do you believe in human rights?

Well, shouldn't you want? It's all secular type reasoning off of a moral foundation of what even makes us different from a cow in the first place, although we're made in the image of God, but they don't have that foundation. And so that would be the number one thing is they're secular in nature. And then the way that they fight, the pro-life movement has never supported a bill that criminalizes the act of abortion for everyone involved. They will support laws that regulate abortion as health care, which says when, where, how, and with what, and at what point gestation can a baby be killed and who can be prosecuted for that if this is broken. Or the abolitionist would say abortions, murder, life begins at conception, and it's equal protection for whoever is involved, which really comes down to the criminalization of the mother. Like, should the mother who procures an abortion be held criminally responsible for willfully killing her child? And the pro-life movement, based on every law they've ever supported, says no.

And the abolition movement will only support laws that say yes. And generally in red states like my state and Oklahoma, wherever you want to go, it's the pro-lifers who will kill bills of abolition because they treat the act of abortion as murder for everyone involved. Okay, Colleen, these were interesting distinctions made here between the pro-life movement and the abortion abolitionist movement. She said the pro-life movement advances mostly secular arguments, scientific arguments about heartbeats starting and that sort of thing. Whereas the abolitionist movement uses specifically biblical arguments that God is the one who creates life and therefore we ought not destroy it. Secondly, the second difference is that the pro-life movement doesn't want to criminalize the act of abortion for everyone involved.

They actually work against that. She said while the abolitionist movement considers abortion to be murder, we need equal protection under the law for those who are preborn. There should be criminalization for the mother. I didn't hear her say that in every case, but for sure in some cases criminalization of the mother. What are your thoughts, Colleen, on that soundbite and the distinction being made between the pro-life movement and the abolitionist movement? I think her assumption that anybody who's pro-life does not have a biblical worldview about life is mistaken. I personally believe that life begins at conception and that we are created in the image of God and my pro-life work stems from that belief. I would venture to say that most pro-life people do hold that view that life is sacred and that we are created in the image of God.

The techniques of how to battle it are different. I would love to see abortion abolished in the United States and all over the world. I would love to see it gone. That's not the world we live in. I think we can beat that drum and we can work towards that, but I think we can also work towards helping people who are in that situation so that abortion is unthinkable and unnecessary in our culture. We would love to see every child welcomed in life on this earth and protected by law and by the leaders that are in our country, but not every leader is going to have that worldview of life begins at conception and that we're created in the image of God. The idea that because we don't say absolutely no abortion never makes us less than pro-life, I take great offense to that. I don't think that that's a good characterization of pro-life people.

God is the judge of each of us. As a woman who has had three abortions and who has received forgiveness and mercy and grace because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for me, I take full responsibility for the abortions that I have and I bear the guilt of that, but I also have received mercy from God. I think throwing women in jail because they have abortion is very radical and it doesn't account for those women who may have been coerced into abortion, say a 16-year-old girl who was impregnated by her father who had her have an abortion to cover up his crime, or women that are in prostitution who if they get pregnant their pimp has them go have abortions.

There's a variety of women who are forced into abortion through coercion and through circumstances that they may or may not have been responsible for. Think about Paul. He was a chief persecutor of Christians. He killed Christians, but when he met Jesus he was forgiven and he was changed. So if we want to go by the letter of the law, maybe Paul should have been killed right away.

So I think we have to be careful with that. In our pregnancy centers and in our pro-life work, I think when we lead with compassion and we lead with concern and care for the story that's being told to us, the person who's sitting in front of us, when we look at them as someone who God loves and have compassion for that person, we don't have to resort to jail. God is a God of love and of perfect justice. We're not going to ever have perfect justice on this side of heaven. The same line of thinking of, man, I'm just so frustrated that abortion has been around for so long. I'm going to go out and bomb abortion clinics. I'm going to go out and kill abortionists because I am so frustrated with this evil that's in our country and in our culture.

He's God, not us. And so I think we have to be really careful to not take on a role that doesn't belong to us in terms of justice. There's a lot to consider on this issue of potentially criminalizing a mother for choosing an abortion. You're right, Colleen, is one thing for a young girl who was trafficked or raped and then coerced to get an abortion to not be held criminally liable versus, say, a 30-year-old professional woman who decides to have a later term abortion simply because she doesn't want the child. In many states, she wouldn't be criminally liable.

But if that same woman killed that child one week after its birth, she would then be criminally liable. We as believers can know that if there is injustice for these babies who have been aborted, in the earthly realm, God will enact final justice in the end, including not just for the mother, by the way, but for a father who encouraged it, for the abortion doctors who performed it, and their workers at their facilities. And that should put fear in really all of our hearts because we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the wages of sin is death. Hebrews 10 31 says it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But the same living God also offers forgiveness and mercy for all who come to Him, repenting of their sin and placing their trust in Jesus Christ as the provision for their sin.

Just one final question for you, Colleen. I'm sure you've noticed that there's been a common retort nowadays, even amongst evangelicals, that being pro-life is not just about being for preborn children, but it's about providing free childcare and healthcare and welfare through end-of-life care. In other words, from the womb to the tomb, if you're not pro-life on all these different issues, and most of them are associated with big government redistributionism, then you're not truly pro-life.

What is your response to that? Well, the act of saving a life is a good and righteous act in and of itself. And the Good Samaritan was not good because he didn't commit to care for the victim forever. The value of our good deed to save a life is not contingent on anything that we may do or promise or pledge after that good deed is done. The act of saving a life or helping a person in a crisis pregnancy situation is good in and of itself, and we can do more, for sure. But the pro-abortion crowd is largely silent on ways to help women after birth. The pro-abortion crowd spends a lot of time and money and talent removing obstacles to abortion, but they spend little on the obstacles to life for a woman who wants to carry her child to term. And in reality, all people, whether you're pro-life or pro-abortion or whatever terminology you want to use, we all have an obligation to care for children after birth and to care for people who are in need. And the Bible tells us there will always be the poor among us.

So we're not ever going to be without them. That idea that you're not really pro-life unless you do all these extra things, it's really a straw argument about the issue. We can do more, and we are doing more. There's 2700 pregnancy resource centers throughout the country. In Minnesota alone, pregnancy resource centers outnumber abortion clinics 11 to 1. When you go to an abortion clinic, what they offer you is abortion or some of their other services, but is there a diaper to be found? Is there a car seat to be found?

Is there a daycare program to be found? No, there's nothing there to say, if you want to carry your baby to term, we'll help you. In fact, honestly, we've had women say to us, I was at the abortion clinic and they pointed me to you.

So it's just bizarre. What you'll find at your local pregnancy center is help and support past the pregnancy test. We can't be all things to all people, but there are tons of organizations out there who are doing good work, who are doing the ongoing work of helping people who are in need. There was a book that was written many years ago called The Tragedy of American Compassion by Marvin Olasky. He talked about when the social welfare programs came into play after World War II, that those were to help the widows and the orphans. The churches were usually places where people would go for help, but when the government stepped in, the churches stepped out. Now people look to the government for these programs to help when really the church could be and is, for the most part, a place where people can go for help. The pregnancy centers that are in Minnesota are striving to do what they can to help people who are in need and then to refer them to places that are doing things that they can't.

I think it's a straw argument to say that you're not pro-life if you don't do X, Y, Z. Colleen, I want to thank you for all the wonderful work that you and Metro Women's Center are doing here in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. The mission is to serve the Lord by offering hope and help to families experiencing pregnancy-related challenges. And so we thank you for coming on the Christian Real View today, and we wish nothing but God's best and grace to you and Metro Women's Center.

Thank you so much for having me today, David. Again, if you'd like to connect with Colleen at Metro Women's Center, you'll find the links within the preview for today's program at thechristianrealview.org. It's important to conclude by saying that abortion is not the unforgivable sin.

The unforgivable sin is when one finally rejects God's offer of reconciliation through His Son's substitutionary death on the cross for your sin. If you want the promise and hope of forgiveness and eternal life with God in heaven, just call us or go to our website, thechristianrealview.org, and click on the page, What Must I Do to Be Saved? Thank you for joining us today on the Christian Real View. In just a moment there will be information on how you can hear a replay of today's program, order transcripts and resources, and support this nonprofit radio ministry.

Let's anchor ourselves in what Scripture says, For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Until next time, think biblically, live accordingly, and stand firm. The mission of the Christian Real View is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end. To hear a replay of today's program, order a transcript, or find out, What Must I Do to Be Saved?, go to thechristianrealview.org or call toll-free 1-888-646-2233. The Christian Real View is a listener-supported nonprofit radio ministry furnished by the Overcomer Foundation. To make a donation, become a Christian Real View partner, order resources, subscribe to our free newsletter, or contact us, visit thechristianrealview.org, call 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for listening to the Christian Real View.