Wisdom from the Aged—Annual Interview with David’s Parents

Wisdom from the Aged. The annual interview with my dad and mom will be featured this Father's Day weekend on The Christian Real View, where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host. The Christian Real View is a non-profit, listener-supported radio ministry. Thanks to you, our listeners, for your encouragement, prayer and support.

You can connect with the ministry by calling our toll-free number, 1-888-646-2233, or by visiting thechristianworldview.org. Wisdom is thinking and living according to God's will and ways. Foolishness is the opposite. The Bible often contrasts wisdom and foolishness.

In fact, Jesus concluded his most well-known message, the Sermon on the Mount, with this exhortation, in the book of Matthew, chapter 7, verses 24 through 27. I have been blessed to grow up in a home and live under parents who built their lives in home on the rock of God's word. While, of course, not perfect, they have strived to live according to the book.

And as America became openly rebellious against God, and the church went quote-unquote contemporary, they did not. And now, in the late stage of their lives, my dad is 90 and my mom is 88, they are blessed with the greatest of blessings, walking with Christ for 65 years, marriage to each other for even longer, children and grandchildren who love and revere them, and many lives who have been impacted for Christ, because of their witness. This Father's Day weekend on the Christian worldview, my aged parents will share their perspective on old age, the change in society and the church, and marriage and parenting. You will hear an uncommon perspective, one which the Bible enjoins to listen to counsel and accept discipline that you may be wise the rest of your days.

That's from Proverbs chapter 19. Now this is anecdotal, but when I often come across listeners to the Christian worldview, the one program they will most often mention is the annual interview with my dad and mom. I've often thought about why that is, because we have lots of well-known guests on the program who speak at conferences, who write books, pastor churches, or lead organizations. And so I think the interview with my parents resonates with listeners for a number of reasons. My parents have lived longer than most everyone, they have been married longer than most everyone, they have been Christians longer than most everyone, and they are a living perspective on the changes that have taken place in society and the church.

I think there's one more reason. They communicate in a direct manner that doesn't leave you wondering what they mean. We decided to offer what I would consider a personal resource to go with the interview today with my parents. If you enjoy the conversation and would like to read more about my relationship with my parents, I'm going to encourage you to order a copy of My Boy Ben, a story of love, loss, and grace. The book recounts the true story from my mid-twenties to my late thirties when I was single and competing on the professional tennis tour with my parents and a special Labrador retriever named Ben along for every step of the way. The book is 264 pages, it's hardcover with a beautiful dust jacket, it retails for $24.95, it's also owned by the Christian worldview. And so for a limited time we are offering My Boy Ben for a donation of any amount to this radio ministry.

You can also request the book be signed and personalized for yourself or as a gift for a friend. It is truly a blessing to have you on the program for another interview around the time of Mother's Day and Father's Day, so just very thankful that God has allowed you to be here for another year. Let's start with old age because there's no other way to say it, but you both are old. I'm glad you're 90 and mom, you are 88. Are you rubbing it in?

No, I'm not rubbing it in. I think you embrace your age very much, so I don't think it's a problem for both of you to talk about what old age is like. So what is it like to typically be the oldest person wherever you go? I know there's people older than 90, but typically when you hit 90 you're getting way up there. Yeah, I can't understand it myself very much that I'm actually arrived at 90, but you have the feeling you've been there and done that. I'm very relaxed about old age, and I see actually the folly as you've gone over all the years.

And mom, what about you? You're nearing 90. It's a whole new stage in life for me. I don't feel badly about being old. I actually like being where I am in this time of my life. And I think of all the people in nursing homes, and I'm so thankful that we can be in the house we've lived in for 50 years and be with each other, but I really don't resent being old.

I think I'm probably wiser now than I was before, so that with wisdom comes old age. My parents join us today in the Christian worldview. Now, dad, you were born in 1931, and mom, you were born in 1933. Maybe you could just choose one or two of the most significant world events during the first 30 to 40 years of your life, whether it was World War II or otherwise, and describe a couple of your memories of those times. Well, I grew up in the Depression. That was during the 30s, and we had some problems that I found out later about.

I was a young boy, so I didn't really feel it myself, but I do know that either the gas or electricity to our home was cut off because my father couldn't pay the bill for a few months. So during those days in the 30s and then leading up to the war, the Second World War, I recall as a child reading the daily news in a newspaper and following what was happening overseas. There was a certain amount of patriotism and a war effort. People really worked for the war effort. The patriotism was abundant, but I don't see that today in anything that we have.

And what about you, mom? I'm sure you remember the John F. Kennedy assassination. What was that period like? I do remember the day that he was assassinated. I watched it all on the news, and I couldn't believe it. And then that was on a Friday, and then on a Sunday, we came home after church and I turned the TV on, as I always do, to get whatever happened because that was a big event, the assassination of our president. And as I was looking at the TV, I saw the man who had shot Kennedy shot himself in jail.

It was just stunning to see him in jail and shot right there on TV. And then the 60s came and that was a real eye-opener because Woodstock, in four days, the whole country went crazy. The drugs and the sex and the rock music, I just couldn't believe what was going on.

And some really bad things happened after that. I think it changed this country forever. It went into the early 70s, and I don't think this country was ever the same after the 60s. It made a significant change in the way people are today. We're going to get more into that, the way society and culture has changed over your lifetime, because I think you have a very unique perspective on that growing up in the 30s and now here we are in the 2020s. My parents joined us today on the Christian worldview this Father's Day weekend.

Now, back to old age. You all are constantly going to the doctor for some issue or another. I see a lot in you, Dad.

You see things that need to be done. You still both live on your own in your own home, which is incredible. Your family lives all around you, helping all the time, but you still do live on your own. But you're not able to do the things, fix things around the house, mow the lawn, do things that you typically used to do all the time. So how do you deal with these health problems, the doctor visits, just kind of feeling the body failing and not being able to do what you used to be able to do?

Well, decrease in health is really gradualism. When you're 20, you don't feel anything. In your 30s, you begin to sort of complain a little bit about aches and pains when you're playing a sport. You get into the 40s and 50s, and it just gets more and more prevalent as you get older, your body begins to wear down. And even though I reached the mid 80s, I was certainly aware of my strength and the aging process.

I really have never never let it really get to me. I accepted every age that I've had with Thanksgiving, even though I've had a lot of health problems, especially in my heart. But now that I'm this far along, 90 and a half, I actually feel that God has blessed me all these years, and I'm able to accept anything that comes my way. It's not too much of a stretch to say, Dad, that you're in some way a living miracle, having had your first quadruple bypass when you were just 47 years old back in the 70s, a quintuple bypass in the late 80s, and another triple bypass double valve replacement in the early 2000s.

Typically, people who get those kinds of procedures don't live until they're 90 years old. So that's only by God's grace. And Mom, you've gone through a lot of things on your own with a stroke and two twisted colon surgeries and a broken hip last year. So both of you have definitely had your share of physical problems and so grateful to have you both. I thank God regularly that you just wake up in the morning and have you both over at your house and to be able to call you on the phone and come and visit. I know I speak for all my siblings when I say this too.

We're just so thankful for that. And Mom, what are your thoughts on not being able to do what you used to be able to do? The only thing that happened to me was when I fell and broke my hip, and I used to be so active.

I was swimming and skating and cross-country skiing and taking long walks every day, and now I can't do that anymore. So that's hard for me. But at the same time, I'm like Dad, I'm just very thankful for our life as a family, our life in Christ, just all the good things we have in this life. I can't complain at all about anything. You two are still very sharp. Do you think there's anything to it that your family has been around you so much and grandkids around you and you've stayed very engaged with what's going on in the world? Do you think there's something to that? Oh, definitely. It's a constant in and out of our house.

Marnie calls it Grand Central Station. We love having all of you around. You're always watching out for us, taking care of us, doing one thing or another, and just the conversations we have. We have very deep conversations with some of our grandchildren and other people who come in, and so yes, I think it does really sharpen your mind when you can talk with younger people, and they keep you young in your mind. Now you have four children, ages 66, 64, 61, and 53, seven grandchildren, 27 is your oldest grandson, and all the way down to Tommy, who is sitting in studio today watching this interview.

Glad you're able to do this. He's age nine. As you look at the wide age range, what do you think of as far as counsel to the younger generations? Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books in the Bible, and I really love chapter 12. Remember thy creator in the days of thy youth, before the evil days come. Well, what are the evil days? Solomon wrote it all out.

The body starts breaking down, everything, eyes, ears. He gives it in great detail, and then what does he say at the end? Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. When you think about it, it's all right there.

Everything you need to know is in the Bible about life, about old age, young age, everything. I love that last chapter. It's well worth reading over and over again.

I want to go right back to you with this question. There are some listeners who I'm sure who are listening this year who have never heard one of the previous interviews with you, where you've talked about how you came to saving faith in Christ. Briefly tell us how and why you came to faith in Christ. I remember when I was at the university. I was in humanities and reading all of the books by all the philosophers, and I felt so depressed.

There was no meaning or purpose to life. At that time in my life, I was in my late teens and I wasn't even 20 yet, but at that time I knew I had no answer to life. I knew Dad and we loved each other and we had a good life together, but we moved to New York after we were married. We were there for two years.

He was there on Army ROTC. While we were there, my mother wrote me a little note and said that she had been born again. I read the note and thought, what is that? What does that mean? I didn't know what that meant. I thought, oh, it's just an emotional experience.

It will all blow away. And then she came to see us in New York and she stepped off the airplane. I walked out in the termac and I took one look at her and she was a different person.

It transformed life. I could see it in her face. There was just a joy in her face that I had never seen before.

It almost brings me to tears every time I think of it. She told me what had happened to her, that she was listening to Christian radio, she had heard the Gospel and she had grown up in a Catholic home, but had left the Catholic Church when she married my father. She heard the Gospel and it just opened her eyes to the truth. She tried to explain it to me, but I had no interest. I thought it was just an emotional experience.

I came home that summer and I didn't like New York at all. She kept saying, Mary Jane, you really need to listen to Christian radio. Now you wonder why I listen to the radio.

Still, I love Christian radio. I have it on all the time. Mark told me that when he'd come home from school, he still could remember hearing all the old music of the faith.

I always had it on and I still do. Finally, we moved down the street from my mother and we were living in an old rental house. I thought, I think I'll start just listening to what she's talking about. In three days, I got it. I understood the Gospel that Christ died from my sins and that I was a sinner. I'm so thankful for my life in Christ.

He's totally changed my life. Thank you for sharing that, Mom. That was 65 years ago. You've been a follower of Christ back in June of 1957. Dad, you were saved shortly thereafter, just three months later in August. That was 65 years ago. Tell us what you perceived about Mom and then how you came to saving faith.

My dad will answer that question after this short break here on the Christian Real View radio program. As I mentioned at the beginning of the program, we are offering My Boy Ben a story of love, loss, and grace in conjunction with the interview today. That's a book that recounts the true story of a time in my life in my mid-20s to late 30s when I was single and competing on the professional tennis tour and my parents and a special Labrador retriever named Ben were there for every step of the way. It's 264 pages. It's hardcover with a dust jacket. It retails for $24.95. It's also owned by the Christian Real View and for a limited time, we are offering it for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View. Just get in contact with us the usual ways. Go to our website, thechristianrealview.org, or just call us, 1-888-646-2233, or you can write to us at Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331, and be sure to request that the book be signed and personalized, if you would like, for yourself or for a friend.

And now here are some other ministry announcements with some resources you can take advantage of. God loves you so much He became a human being, suffered and died on the cross to take the punishment for the sin of the world. That means you don't have to end up in hell. God can legally forgive your sins because He's the lover of your soul. And then Jesus rose from the dead and defeated death. Mario, if you give up the battle and just say, God, I'm a rebel, and you repent and trust in Christ, God will forgive every sin you've ever committed and grant your everlasting life as a free gift. Do you believe what I'm saying? Yes. It's the gospel truth.

I wouldn't lie to you. Ray Comfort is a tireless proclaimer of the gospel and a sharp defender of the faith. Did you know that Ray has written a commentary for the Evidence Study Bible, a New King James Version that is chock full of evidence for the faith and instruction on evangelism? To purchase the Evidence Study Bible, go to TheChristianWorldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Be sure to take advantage of two free resources that will keep you informed and sharpen your worldview. The first is the Christian Worldview weekly email, which comes to your inbox each Friday. It contains a preview of the upcoming radio program along with need-to-read articles, featured resources, special events, and audio of the previous program. The second is the Christian Worldview annual print letter, which is delivered to your mailbox in November. It contains a year-end letter from host David Wheaton and a listing of our store items, including DVDs, books, children's materials, and more. You can sign up for the weekly email and annual print letter by visiting TheChristianWorldview.org or calling 1-888-646-2233.

Your email and mailing address will never be shared and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit TheChristianWorldview.org. Welcome back to The Christian Worldview. I'm David Wheaton.

You can visit our website, TheChristianWorldview.org, to get connected with this nonprofit radio ministry. Now back to the annual interview with my parents. Dad, you were saved shortly thereafter, just three months later in August, and that was 65 years ago. Tell us what you perceived about Mom and then how you came to saving faith. It was quite obvious that this change in your mother was evident to me, and I knew that she had changed completely on the inside. She was a different person, and a few days later I responded to her gospel that she had heard, and then I became a Christian. And from that point on, we've been living a life in Christ in everything we do.

It was definitely seeing the change in her that caused me to want to change in myself. I asked that question early, because to know both of you, you have to know that about you, because that is the foundation for everything you're going to say, from a Christian worldview, so to speak, on the changes in society and marriage and parenting, which we'll get into. But it is your faith in Christ that is the foundation of who both of you are. Have you ever thought back, Dad, to think about what you would have been like as a person if you hadn't come to saving faith in Christ? Yes, I have thought about that, and I don't like thinking about it. I tended to be rather lived by the day, a little on the shallow side, just moving with the flow, not seeing anything very deeply, not understanding who God was, and really I didn't really care too much to even think about it.

I just had a very absence of that. I just lived life in the moment, and I'm afraid that's the way most people live today. A big warning in that, because in the moment continues, moment after moment after moment, and pretty soon you're out of moments, and you pass from life to death. So if you live in the moment, you're at risk, and you must know the Savior in order to become a born-again child of God and have eternal life. So well said.

Thank you for saying that. Mom, how about you? You two have been Christians for such a long time, so it's probably hard to remember, but what do you think your life would have been like if you hadn't come to faith in Christ? I don't think I would have been a happy person at all. I would have been very sort of depressed. You have to have a purpose to your life, some significance to your life.

I would not have been happy at all. I had to find meaning to my life, significance to my life, and now I have great purpose to my life. Just in my own life for myself, just hearing Bible teaching on the radio every day, I'd like to take it in and then give it out to someone else so they can know the truth too. It really is the truth. As you used to say when you were playing tennis, you used the verse, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me, and I am the truth, he said. So when you find Christ, you don't need to look for anything more. You have everything when you have Christ.

When you don't have Christ, you have nothing. As we've been talking about starting here, talking about your age, 90 and 88, do you think about finishing well, like crossing the finish line, running hard in your faith, or what motivates you at this age? I think there's sometimes a sense as people get older, they've sort of read the Bible a few times and they've gone to church, and they've done sort of these Christian things their entire life, and then they sort of almost retire to just things that don't really seem to have a lot of spiritual meaning. What motivates you, Dad, to continue to grow or to read the Bible on a daily basis, to tell others about the Gospels? I know you do that, or even disciple younger people, either your own grandkids or their friends that will come in your home.

There have been so many people I can just think of on top of my head here that are young people that somehow you have connected with, whether at a gym several years ago or just people you run across. What's motivating you at this latter stage of your life? Well, to me, I always want to be learning from the Bible about Christ. It's very important to me that I continue doing that until the day I die, because there's so much to be learned in the Bible. He comes through on every page virtually, and it's important that we continue that, because if you start slowing up, let's say reading the Bible or attending church, that becomes just routine, and if it becomes social, you have to be very careful, because then you've really lost it. It's very important as a Christian as they become older that they maintain the pace that they've set out, reading about Him, knowing Him closely, because someday you're going to meet Him face to face. Mom, what do you think about with regards to finishing well in your earthly journey, in your walk with Christ?

I don't think that I have arrived by any means. I have a long way to go. I have so much to learn. I mean, the Bible, it never gets old. The Word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of your soul and spirit, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of your heart. So I need it.

I don't know why I have such a hunger for it still. After so many years, it's been 60-some years since I became a Christian, but I still love it, and I still learn so much from it every single day, but I do have to say that sound teaching from someone, a man who has studied it and learned it in the original language and teaches it so that it is sound doctrine, I don't waste my time listening to people who don't know what they're talking about, and a lot of them don't. A lot of people get caught up with teachers who really, they shouldn't be listening to at all, and I think there's so much apostasy going on right now that it's very important that you do know the Bible and don't get drawn away by unsound teaching. Now, Dad and Mom, we could have spent this whole interview talking about the changes that no doubt you have seen in society since you were born in the 30s and went through the whole 20th century, now into the 21st century.

Things have very much changed. Obviously, people have always been sinners, and they always live in rebellion against God until they come to saving faith. That being said, you look at our nation, and when you were growing up, I'm sure there were some people who lived together before marriage, but it was rare. I'm sure there was some divorce at the time, but it was rare. I'm sure there was homosexuality back then, but it was more in the closet.

There wasn't drag queen story hour at your local public library. This is a very broad question, but what has gone wrong or what has changed in our society, let's say just specifically from a moral perspective, and what is your perspective on the change that has taken place? There's a certain amount of permissiveness that has now invaded the family, and there's a lot of leftist thinking that we have to let our children be who they are, whatever they think they are. It's very hard to describe the change in society, but that change is not good, and our society has really gotten very vulgar. There's nothing left of decency. Everything is in the open.

Mom, I want to ask you the same question. Sometimes I read something in the news, some moral situation that shocks us as believers, but maybe it shouldn't because there the pagans go. When we were unsaved, you do what your flesh demands you must do when you're unsaved. But even that doesn't fully explain it because, again, people were unsaved back then, but there wasn't the total lack of restraint that you see in society today.

Some of the things that were rare back then are just omnipresent today. So what is your perspective on what has gone wrong in our society in this moral rebellion against God? The whole world lies in the lap of the wicked one. It's getting worse and worse as time goes on.

We've certainly seen it all happen. It is total rebellion against God. Why? I look at our country and I see it going down so fast, especially the last year and a half. This morning I turned the news on and there was a whole parade of transgender people who were parading on a stage with the mothers there with their children coming to see it. It just made me sick.

I had to turn it off. I don't know how much farther it's going to go. We're going down, down, down very fast. And the only hope is in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's why I want to tell anyone who wants to know the truth and give it to them, but I feel very sad for even your age and Tommy's age and what's coming. And I see all these so-called politicians on one side or the other. They can't fix it. No one can fix it.

There's only one way of fixing it. It's like Francis Schaeffer used to say, it's the practical result of the death of absolutes. And we take the Bible out and throw it away like they've done. Then this is what happens.

We're looking at it now. I actually think it can get a whole lot worse. As shocking as it is now, if you read Romans 1, it's just God gives them over to a depraved mind. And there are deeper levels, I think, sadly, our society is going to go. Christ could return at any time. There's nothing that needs to happen before what I understand the Bible to teach in the rapture of the church and then the coming tribulation. But I have a feeling, I think we got glimpses of this with the way the whole COVID pandemic played out and the authoritarian consolidation of power and the passports and the tracking and the data and the surveillance and the coercion. That's what it's going to be like in the tribulation. We saw a really good picture of that and that's not going away now.

So I think it can get worse, but I agree with you, Mom. The only thing that's going to save individual hearts is believing in Jesus Christ. So thank you for your perspective on that. Okay, just a brief timeout to hear about some ministry resources that you can take advantage of. One of them that we are offering for a limited time in conjunction with this interview with my parents today is My Boy Ben, a story of love, loss, and grace. This book recounts the story in a time in my life from my mid-20s to late 30s when I was single and competing on the pro tennis tour and my parents in a special lab named Ben were right there every step of the way. The book is 264 pages. It's hardcover with a beautiful dust jacket.

It retails for $24.95. It's also owned by the Christian Worldview. And for a limited time, we are offering My Boy Ben for a donation of any amount to the Christian Worldview. You can also request that the book be signed and personalized for yourself or as a gift.

You can order it by going to our website, thechristianworldview.org, by calling us toll-free, 1-888-646-2233, or by writing to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. We will be back with more with the interview with my parents as they talk about the church right after these ministry announcements. And if indeed we succeed in hacking and engineering life, this will be not just the greatest revolution in the history of humanity. This will be the greatest revolution in biology since the very beginning of life four billion years ago. Science is replacing evolution by natural selection with evolution by intelligent design. Not the intelligent design of some god above the clouds, but our intelligent design.

That was Yuval Noah Harari, a leading advisor to Klaus Schwab of the World Economic Forum. Dystopian scenarios like this will likely mark the days leading up to the return of Christ. This is why we recommend you order Steve Miller's new book, Four Shadows, 12 Mega Clues Jesus' Return is Nearer Than Ever.

You can get it for a donation of any amount. Just call 1-888-646-2233 or go to thechristianworldview.org. Be sure to take advantage of two free resources that will keep you informed and sharpen your worldview. The first is the Christian Worldview weekly email, which comes to your inbox each Friday. It contains a preview of the upcoming radio program, along with need-to-read articles, featured resources, special events, and audio of the previous program. The second is the Christian Worldview annual print letter, which is delivered to your mailbox in November. It contains a year-end letter from host David Wheaton and a listing of our store items, including DVDs, books, children's materials, and more. You can sign up for the weekly email and annual print letter by visiting thechristianworldview.org or calling 1-888-646-2233.

Your email and mailing address will never be shared, and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. Thanks for joining us on the Christian Worldview. I'm David Wheaton. Just a reminder that today's program and past programs are archived at our website, thechristianworldview.org.

Transcripts and short takes are also available. Now let's get back to the interview this Father's Day weekend with my parents. Let's move over to the church. We'll get to marriage and parenting a little bit later, but the church is an easy target to criticize, the evangelical church, the professing Bible-believing church, because the mainline denominations and other ones are way off.

They're just leftist social groups now. But it's an easy target to criticize, and we don't want to be critical of everything because not all evangelical churches have gone off the deep end, and yet we need to be discerning as well. I think, as you mentioned, there's a lot of bad doctrine and apostasy going on within the evangelical church. We've seen it with critical race theory, and the next step is what Rick Warren just did at his church. He hired a couple, a man and a wife, to now take over. They're both going to be teaching. That particular boundary or standard of Scripture is going to drop.

You can see that coming. If you could give counsel, Dad, to the professing Bible-believing church today, what would you say to them? What I've noticed is they've lost reverence. Even in the pulpit, the minister comes up to speak, and he dresses just like the audience. There's no dignity in the service, but it seems to be dominated by sort of cheap songs that are sung 7-11 style, where you sing seven words 11 times, and are a heavy beat. That is, the dignity of music is being lost fast. This is all being relevant.

All these services seem to be about the same. Wherever you go from place to place, there's a certain pattern that they use in churches today, a formula. If you're going to have a relevant church, and you want to attract a certain group of people, which is probably the demographic from 18 to 45, and that really isn't church, because church is for believers. The church is a place where believers go to get trained, and they go to take a friend of theirs perhaps to hear the gospel, because the church has one goal, to train and sustain the believers in the area that they live in.

But it's more entertainment now, I'm sad to say. I think your point about reverence is very good. It's so much of a motivation or a mission that the evangelical church has to put on almost like a performance, and to get the congregation to experience something when they come on a Sunday. They're trying to make sure they're relevant, and the church is attractional to a certain demographic today. Really what it is, is a lack of confidence in God's word and God's spirit to change people.

How about you, Mom? How would you assess the evangelical church today, and what would be your counsel? We've seen a lot of change. The first church we went to was just a small Bible church with a pastor who taught the Bible really well. Seven years we learned under him. We sang hymns, just hymns.

There was no rock music. When he left, another pastor came who was more intellectual, and we left there and went to another church. When we were at that church, we were sitting there one day, and a group was dancing down the aisles, and they were singing music we'd never heard before.

Dad and I looked at each other and thought, what is going on? This doesn't seem like church at all. Then as time went on, we just noticed more and more the church was now catering to younger people who wanted rock music. I think when the church opened the door to the devil with the music, that was the end of the church. I don't think that maybe even the pastors had the discernment to discern that this is bringing the world right into the church. I've seen the effect it has on people in the church. It's really sad, and I've asked different people I know, do you know Onward Christian Soldiers? Do you know the Old Rugged Cross?

Do you know Blessed Assurance? Never heard of them. It's all been replaced by rock music. It's interesting how both of you point to the music as being the really big change that has deeply impacted the direction of the church. I think for worse, if you think about it, the music that's played in modern evangelical churches has only been around for about 60 years or so or less. Think about the 2000 years of the kinds of music or non-music that churches had in their services. Now to all of a sudden change that to a very worldly form of music, even with Christian lyrics, there is going to be a consequence of that. Basically, it's almost like a 30-35 minute rock concert complete with low lights, high performance, highly stimulating environment.

The worship team, so to speak, performing to a standing audience that is really not participating to a large degree, even not even singing. And frankly, just being overpowered, being put into this almost trance-like, highly emotional experiential state. And I agree with you, I think it's had a negative impact as the primary driver is touching our emotions rather than our mind and our will. I want to make sure we get to some questions regarding marriage and parenting. You two have been married for this month. It's going to be 68 years.

That's an awful long time. You were married when you were young. I believe you were 19 or 20, Mom. I was 20.

And then Dad I think was 22. So you married young as well. So you've lived a long life and you married young.

So you've been married a lot of years. What was the quote-unquote dating culture like when you started dating? Were you and Dad unusual in the way you dated? I know that Dad would come over to your house with your parents and make popcorn and so forth. What was the dating culture like at that time?

As Dad said one time, it was love at first sight. We never dated anyone else. We stayed with each other.

But we didn't live together for sure, even though we were not Christians. We knew enough that you don't do that. Was that common? Other people doing that? No. I wasn't aware of it. Of course, I had nice friends who didn't do that.

I did have one girl in our group of eight who did have to get married. It was a total shock to all of us. There were lots of problems after that. There's been such a gradualism.

It's like putting the frog in the water and bringing it up to boil. I don't think people have been aware of how fornication is a serious sin in the Bible, that fornicators are not going to inherit the kingdom of heaven. I mean, it's black and white. It's right there.

How do you get around that? And there's so much of it in the evangelical church now. That's the disturbing part of it. I was just going to say, in the dating scene in our day, you tended to date the person either in class, the girl next door, or down the street, or a few miles away. But nowadays, kids get involved in dating. They're seeking the internet to find the right person. Or if they go on their way to college, they're at a marrying age, of course, and they'll meet someone in college, and that person will be from a different city, state. And if they get married, then their family is going to be somewhere else rather than being where you were. Not that everybody can remain together, I understand that, but it seems like the web has destroyed marrying the girl next door, so to speak. When you do that, the family is going to be spread out, and the influence of the family is going to be lessened on that particular union. Let's talk about your 68 years of marriage.

How has it worked so well for so long? Is it mainly that your personalities are pretty different, actually? Is it that opposites attract?

Would that be one of the things you say that would have really led to a long and a good marriage? Is it spiritual unity? You both have the same biblical worldview. Is it shared interests? Do you like doing things together? What are some of the things that have kept your marriage strong over 68 years? It's our salvation. It affects everything in our life. We have the same mind because we both believe the same thing in the Word of God. I didn't know anyone who was divorced until maybe, I've forgotten what year it was, but we weren't fighting and arguing and angry with each other.

It was so good. If people would just do it God's way, everything would turn out okay. It's sort of a trite expression. You must have had some disagreements from time to time. How did you resolve when there were disagreements in your home? We are total opposites. And we don't agree on everything, but we don't fight about it.

Do you recall? I don't remember knock-down, drag-out fights growing up in the home. But I remember you two would speak forthrightly to each other at times, but it was never carried on for long periods of time. It never got very extreme if there was really any disagreements.

It's hard to remember very many at all when I was growing up. But back again to the Bible again. Don't be angry. Be angry and sin not. I mean, don't go to bed angry.

Everything you need to know is right in this book. So, Deb, what is your advice to younger parents? We talked about the big change in the culture right now. It's a completely different culture than when you raised your children.

Whether it's to do with schooling, your friendships, or avoiding pitfalls in the world, what is your advice to, let's say, 20-something or 30-something, maybe 40-something parents who have children trying to raise them in this totally depraved culture? Well, one thing for sure in the family is that you should have family dinner together every night that you can. You assemble together. You eat together. You talk around the table. But I'm afraid that is gone now.

I'd have to guess that most homes do not do that. You eat on the run. Everybody's got something going on. They don't have time to get together. It's very important to have that family time together, and the father should lead it.

And we did that. Mom would make a sit-down dinner every night, and all of you would assemble around the table, and we'd talk and chatter and what's going on, but we did stick together during that period of time. And I think that's very, very important that families do that now, but I think they've lost it. But you need that full family activity. You can get so distracted and so busy with multiple kids going lots of different directions, but you can't compromise on some of the fundamentals of being together as a family over meals and going to church on Sundays as a family and other things like that. Otherwise, there's repercussions to that.

Mom, what is your advice to parents raising children in this culture? I wouldn't have them in public school. Not at all, because... Now, you've changed on that.

I have. There was a time. I just started to say there was a time when I thought there was a benefit to going to public school. I don't think it's good to just isolate, insulate yourself from everything, so then you end up very odd. In today's world, no. No on public school at all. It's an indoctrination.

It's really bad what they're doing to the children now. Friendships, I think it's important to have good friends. Not just anyone, but good friends who are good people, if possible, who live by the book.

You become like the people you spend time with. So, Deb, we're running out of time here in this year's interview, but just a parting thought or exhortation to listeners to the Christian Real View today. They've heard you.

Probably many of them have heard you for many years. Anything you'd like to finish with today? First of all, you stay with the Word of God. Everything you ever need to know is in the verses of Scripture. As I read Scripture now, I come across things that I've read before, and they didn't make a big impression on me, and now when I read them again, there's more teaching to be had. I think if we would follow the Bible and teaching and communication in our lives, that our lives would be full, overflowing, we would be able to raise our family in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. We should eliminate anything that's worldly, anything that comes into the life of our family, and don't allow the junk of the world today, especially television, to come into your mind constantly. We really do have to avoid those things that tear us down and not build us up.

Okay, Mom, how would you answer that question? Parting exhortation to listeners to the Christian Real View who have heard you for many years in the program, what would you say? Only one life will soon be past. Only what's done for Christ will last. If you have Christ, you have everything. If you don't have Christ, you have nothing. The most important thing in life is to know Christ as your Savior and Lord. So my parting thought is, as I've told people as I've gone through my life, just trust in Christ as your Savior and Lord. Repent of your sin and put all of your faith and trust in Him.

That's the solution to your own personal life, to the life of the country and the world, but the world just doesn't want anything to do with Him. Sad. One last thing.

The book that Bork, Robert Bork, was slouching toward Gomorrah, he warned in that book about technology, how it was going to destroy the country. And I see it. I see all the children looking at their phones. You go to a doctor's office and they're sitting there not talking to anyone. Everyone sitting there is looking at their phone.

People get together in a family situation, they have to look at their phones. I think technology has really played a big part in where we are today. I just want to thank you both again for coming on the program for another year. Like I said at the beginning, so grateful to God for allowing you to be with us for another year. I want to say on behalf of my siblings and all your grandchildren, Happy Father's Day to you, Dad. And we love both of you so much and are so grateful to God for both of you. Thank you, David, for having us. Thank you, David.

We love you. Love you all, all of our children and grandchildren. Well, I hope you gained from listening to the interview with my parents today. They called me after the interview to say they wanted to thank my siblings and their grandchildren for helping them so much at this stage of their life.

But I think we all have much more to thank them for. If you missed most of the interview today, we have been announcing that in conjunction with the interview, we are offering My Boy Ben a Story of Love, Loss and Grace. This is a book that recounts the true story of a transitional time in my own life with my parents and a Labrador retriever named Ben who were along for every step of the way. The book is 264 pages. It's hardcover with a dust jacket. It retails for $24.95.

It's owned by the Christian Worldview. You can order it for a donation of any amount to this radio ministry. You can also request that the book be signed and personalized for yourself or as a gift for a friend. You can order it online at our website, thechristianworldview.org, or just by calling us, 1-888-646-2233. If you'd rather write to us, that address is given immediately following today's program. Thank you for joining us today on the Christian Worldview. Thanks to you, our listeners, for funding today's program. It's refreshing to hear the wisdom from the aged, but we need to heed that wisdom because we do live in a challenging world, but we know that Jesus Christ and His Word are the same yesterday and today and forever.

So until next time, think biblically, live accordingly, stand firm, and have a wonderful Father's Day weekend. The mission of the Christian Worldview is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end. To hear a replay of today's program, order a transcript, or find out what must I do to be saved, go to thechristianworldview.org or call toll-free, 1-888-646-2233. The Christian Worldview is a listener-supported, non-profit radio ministry furnished by the Overcomer Foundation. To make a donation, become a Christian Worldview partner, order resources, subscribe to our free newsletter, or contact us, visit thechristianworldview.org, call 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for listening to the Christian Worldview.