The Overturning of Roe v. Wade and Why Christian Leaders are Silent

The overturning of Roe vs. Wade and why Christian leaders are silent. Pastor Josh Byss joins us today here on the Christian Real View Radio Program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host. Today we are able to broadcast on the radio station, website, or app on which you are listening today because of the support of listeners like you.

Thank you. Now, we're not going to focus on the Declaration of Independence today, but something that's actually related to it and what it just said, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. Now we're not going to focus on the Declaration of Independence today, but something that's actually related to it and what it just said, that all men are created equal, including babies in the womb, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In a sense, as we talk about the overturning of Roe v. Wade today, it relates to the original founding vision of the Declaration of Independence and the right to life.

So let's preview the topic for the day. Most Americans, and particularly those under the age of 50, have lived their entire lives with elective abortion being legal in every state. Roe v. Wade was the case presented to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1973 when a majority of justices decided that the U.S. Constitution provided a, quote, right to privacy should a woman want an abortion. That term, right to privacy, is not found in the Constitution, and originalist legal interpreters agree that Roe was one of the most baseless legal decisions in the court's history. Tragically, that decision nationalized abortion and has led to the deaths of 63 million preborn babies in the last 50 years.

Nothing, not Hitler and Nazi Germany, not the worst communist genocide, has approached the lethality of this American Holocaust that takes place every day behind closed doors all around us. No matter how it's euphemized, whether it's, quote, unquote, choice or healthcare or bodily autonomy, the reality is that an intentional killing of a human life takes place with every abortion, a life created by God and made in His image. Those who understand the immorality and injustice of abortion have worked tirelessly over five decades to end or at least reduce the slaughter.

And then unexpectedly, to all but the most hopeful, the current Supreme Court recently overturned Roe v. Wade, placing the power to regulate abortion to each state rather than the federal government. This weekend on The Christian Real View, Pastor Josh Byce of Praise Mill Baptist Church near Atlanta and the founder of G3 Ministries joins us to discuss the overturning of Roe and why a bewildering number of Christian leaders have been silent about this. Later in the program, Colleen Tronson, executive director of Metro Women's Center in Minnesota, joins us to describe what it's like to work on the front lines at a pregnancy help center. Let's get straight to the interview with Pastor Josh Byce. Josh, we're grateful to have you on The Christian Real View for the first time today. Before we get into some of the issues we're going to discuss, I was very interested in your faith story that you have in your bio.

I'm just going to read a paragraph from that. You say, although I was very involved in the ministries of our local church, I was a lost church member. I had walked down the aisle when I was six years old at another church in our community. I prayed a prayer with a preacher and later I was baptized as a member at Praise Mill.

That's where you pastor now. However, it was not until I was 25 years old that God caused me to be born again through the gospel. Although I used the term, quote, lost church member, I was sincere, just sincerely wrong. I was not out to fool anyone.

I was the one being fooled. When I read that, this really made me think about my own faith story and how I grew up in a Christian home and made a profession of faith when I was young. But it wasn't until I was 24 that I really came to understand my own sinfulness and what the gospel was and my need to repent and believe in Christ and follow him as Lord. So explain more how you came to genuine saving faith when you were 25 years old, Josh, and if or how that relates to this debated issue of lordship salvation. One side, the side that believes not in lordship, will say that you can be a, quote unquote, carnal, backslidden Christian for years, but still be a Christian versus those who believe that when you're saved, Christ is your Lord will say that you can be a professing Christian, but not genuinely possess saving faith. So talk about those two things.

Yeah, David, good to be with you. Yes, so my story of conversion is, I think, unique in some ways, and then in some ways it's probably very similar to many others like yourself. The idea that a person can be a lost carnal or you might say a carnal Christian being carnal, worldly, yet truly saved and just kind of hanging around inside the life of the church, but yet truly saved, just living in carnal disobedience to God.

I would reject that. I think that the scriptures teach very clearly that if you are indeed a child of God, you're going to love the things that God loves and hate the things that God hates. And Jesus himself said, if you love me, keep my commandments. And when I look back in my life, it was obvious that I was in subjection and I was in submission to my father in his home. But as a teenager, I did not exemplify the fruit of the Spirit. I was in the church, but I was not a true Christian. I had made that profession of faith during a very tumultuous time in my family's life when my parents had had divorced and my grandfather was taking me to church on Sundays. And I saw other people going down to the front of the church and praying with the pastor.

And I thought, that's what I need to do. But it wasn't until years later after being baptized in the local church and growing up in the youth group and all of that sort of thing, after I had graduated from college and I'm working in Atlanta, I was listening to a man preach on the Internet. And as I was at my desk, it became very clear to me that I was a church member, but I wasn't truly born again. And so it was at that very moment that I was convicted of my sin and my disobedience before God. And so I just simply bowed at my desk and cried out to God and asked the Lord to save me, believing that Jesus died for me, believing that he atoned for every last one of my sins. And of course, I already knew all of these things, right? I'd been taught these things. I myself was teaching these things in the church.

But it wasn't until that very moment that I truly came to a saving knowledge of Christ personally. Josh Byce with us today here on the Christian worldview, the pastor of Praisemill Baptist Church just outside Atlanta. Now, Josh, I'm going to read from some of your recent columns today because they address a lot of the current issues going on within our society and the church.

And the first column I'm going to read has to do with the overturning of Roe versus Wade just recently by the U.S. Supreme Court. You write, When George Floyd was murdered in the streets of Minneapolis, that's right where we're coming from talking to you today, it sparked anger and protest. In the wake of Floyd's death, the streets filled with crowds of people under the banner of Black Lives Matter.

Black squares appeared in everyone's Instagram feed in memory of George Floyd. It was an intense moment in America's history. During such controversy, evangelical leaders took to their blogs and their social media platforms to write articles and engage in virtue signals under the hashtag Black Lives Matter. But now with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, you say after the murder of 63 million little babies since 1973 in a landmark decision, the Supreme Court has now overturned Roe v. Wade and turned the decision of abortion over to each individual state. After such a shocking decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, the overwhelming majority of high profile evangelical leaders are silent on the issue. Sadly, those evangelical leaders who expressed public support of Black Lives Matter are unwilling to show public support for hashtag babies lives matter. Now, this is just very shocking and troubling that this would be the case, Josh. So would you be willing to name just some of the Christian leaders who you have been surprised at that have been social media users, perhaps tweeted or said something about the Black Lives Matter movement, but have been completely silent on this historic decision to overturn Roe v. Wade and why you think they are being silent? It's a great question.

It is indeed sad as we look at this issue. As we think about specific evangelical leaders within what we might call Big Eva or specific evangelical circles, like even the Southern Baptist Convention, we look to individuals like, say, Russell Moore. Russell Moore is a well-known, highly celebrated public figure in many evangelical circles. He has taught at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He was once the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. He is steeped in ethics. He was indeed my professor at Southern Seminary. But yet when you look at everything he has said, all the articles he's written, all of the tweets that he has tweeted, all of the public statements that he has made, the conferences that he's spoken at, all about social justice and about Black Lives Matter.

When we get to a time in American history when Roe v. Wade is now overturned, 63 million little babies have died since 1973, and now this historic decision has now been handed down by the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. And yet Russell Moore hasn't tweeted about it. He hasn't said anything. He has a platform. He now works for Christianity Today. He's no longer the leader of and the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the SBC. But suffice it to say, he has a massive platform. He appears on CNN. He writes for Christianity Today.

He has a large following on social media. And it's silence. And that's not just Russell Moore. You see it with Tim Keller. You see it with Beth Moore. You see it with other individuals within evangelical circles, even more conservative types like, say, a Mark Dever, for instance. You're just not seeing anything mentioned by these men and these women.

And why is this? Well, in many ways, it's because they pacified a large group of individuals throughout the last couple of years during a social justice tsunami that swept through American culture and evangelical circles and even through the most recent presidential election. And now to actually go bold and to speak up on the issue of abortion would in many ways it would be seen as turning their backs on those individuals. And so I'm not going to presume to know their heart. But what I will say is that their silence is deafening.

I agree. And it's extremely troubling. Many, many devout Christians have worked for 50 years almost here to get this overturned. It doesn't ban abortion in our country, but this is a great step forward.

This is really great news. And for those who are on social media constantly putting out messages and so forth who are Christian leaders to not even say anything about this, it is extremely, extremely disappointing and troubling. Pastor Josh Bice with us today here on the Christian Royal View radio program, not only the pastor of Praisemill Baptist Church outside Atlanta, Georgia, but also the founder and president of G3 Ministries. We have all these links to Josh's ministry right at our website in the preview for today's program, also in the preview for the podcast feed. If you go to our websites, theChristianworldview.org. Let's go to a soundbite because another column you wrote, you talked about how our President Joe Biden used the word extreme over and over again to categorize or really marginalize those who are ideologically different than he is.

Let's get to that soundbite and I'll follow up with a question. It's a realization of an extreme ideology and a tragic error by the Supreme Court, in my view. The court has done what it has never done before, expressly take away a constitutional right that is so fundamental to so many Americans that had already been recognized. So extreme that women could be punished for protecting their health. So extreme that women and girls were forced to bear their rapist child.

It just, it just stuns me. So extreme that doctors will be criminalized for fulfilling their duty to care. Imagine having a young woman having to carry the child of incest as a consequence of incest.

No option. Too often the case, the poor women are going to be hit the hardest. It's cruel. In fact, the court laid out state laws criminalizing abortion that go back to the 1800s as rationale. The court literally taking America back 150 years. You could just hear in his voice just how angry the president is over this this decision by the U.S. Supreme Court and how he's labeling those who who did this, the Supreme Court or those who've worked for pro-life causes as extreme. So the question is, Josh, what are the president and others, by the way, in the media doing and who are advocates for abortion? What are they doing by I think you could call this othering, making this other view out there.

This is extreme. These are people. These are outliers. What are they doing by that? Well, in many ways, what they're doing is they're trying to posture or separate the Christians or the conservatives. But really, when we say the conservatives who are leading in this debate, it's the Church of Jesus that's leading even in that group of conservatives.

But what we could say is that they're separating the Church of Jesus Christ off to really in many ways to make them out to be some sort of radical group of extremists, much like what we would look to say the radical Islamic terrorists, for instance. When you hear the media, when you hear President Joe Biden and politicians talking about radicalism and extremists, oftentimes it's the worst of the worst. I mean, it's very difficult to even get them to even call a terrorist a terrorist. So even in this speech, what you're seeing is you're seeing a public shaming by the president of the United States of America who holds the most powerful office in the land, the most powerful podium in the land. And yet he goes out to that podium and he starts using that language of extremism. And he's pointing towards the Church of Jesus Christ when he says this. And it's very troubling because this could be the spark which could open the door for open state sponsored persecution on the church, simply because we would refuse to agree that abortion is health care or that abortion is a form of women's rights.

And so the extreme position is actually calling the conservative position extremism. And it's dangerous. And God loves you so much. He became a human being, suffered and died on the cross to take the punishment for the sin of the world. That means you don't have to end up in hell. God can legally forgive your sins because he's the lover of your soul. And then Jesus rose from the dead and defeated death. Mario, if you give up the battle and just say, God, I'm a rebel and you repent and trust in Christ, God will forgive every sin you've ever committed and grant everlasting life as a friend. God will give everlasting life as a free gift. Do you believe what I'm saying? Yes. It's the gospel truth.

I wouldn't lie to you. Ray Comfort is a tireless proclaimer of the gospel and a sharp defender of the faith. Did you know that Ray has written a commentary for the Evidence Study Bible, a New King James version that is chock full of evidence for the faith and instruction on evangelism? To purchase the Evidence Study Bible, go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Be sure to take advantage of two free resources that will keep you informed and sharpen your worldview. The first is the Christian Worldview Weekly email, which comes to your inbox each Friday. It contains a preview of the upcoming radio program along with need-to-read articles, featured resources, special events, and audio of the previous program. The second is the Christian Worldview Annual Print Letter, which is delivered to your mailbox in November. It contains a year-end letter from host David Wheaton and a listing of our store items, including DVDs, books, children's materials, and more. You can sign up for the weekly email and annual print letter by visiting thechristianworldview.org or calling 1-888-646-2233.

Your email and mailing address will never be shared and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. Welcome back to the Christian Worldview.

I'm David Wheaton. You can visit our website thechristianworldview.org to get connected with this nonprofit radio ministry. Now back to the interview with Pastor Josh Byss. In your column you say, over the last few years, with the explosion of the social justice controversy in the political election season, evangelical leaders have shamed Christians and lectured the church on one issue voting during the presidential election campaign.

It became a hotly contested debate in the last election when Donald Trump was running for reelection against Joe Biden. Evangelical leaders wrote articles and suggested that Christians should not go to the polls with a single commitment to vote for the best candidate on the issue of abortion because they suggested that nothing could be done to overturn Roe v. Wade and there were other important matters worthy of consideration. Now before you answer this question, I just want to play a sound bite. You mentioned this, Pastor, earlier, Mark Dever of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., having a conversation with, I believe, someone who works for his ministry, Jonathan Lehman, I think his name is.

But I'm just going to play the beginning of the sound bite where Mark Dever frames this question of what you just described in that paragraph in your article. Well, I don't have much time left to make people mad, so what about one issue voting? I think one of the things that most separates white and black Christians in America is one issue voting. I think white Christians think this is the only moral way to approach voting.

I think they've never thought of any other thing, generally. I think a lot of our African-American brothers and sisters realized a long time ago that, well, there are going to be a bunch of different issues that are going to be affecting us, and I can vote for a candidate who I disagree with about some very important issues that I don't really think they're going to get anything done on, but I agree with them on these other issues that I think are going to help a lot of people. Even if you don't adopt that thought yourself, can you allow space for that in your church as a morally legitimate argument and option? One issue voting. And I'm not trying to say one issue voting is illegitimate. I'm saying I think that's clearly there is one way you can think through your vote, and you can sort of champion that. But I think a lot of white evangelicals assume that's the only morally legitimate position or the only position to be argued to have moral legitimacy. And I certainly would like to question that.

Okay. Josh, that was Mark Dever, probably someone you know personally, framing that question. I won't give the whole response by Jonathan and maybe we'll have a chance to play it later in the program, but what are your thoughts on this issue of, now that Roe v. Wade's been overturned, what are your thoughts on this issue of single issue or one issue voting, and also the fact that Donald Trump, who was hated by many evangelical leaders, he was the one who appointed three conservative justices and in large part led to this Roe v. Wade being overturned. How should we view this issue of one issue voting in light of what Mark Dever just said there? And also, what should we think about Donald Trump at this point?

Yes. So as it pertains to what Mark Dever said, again, I am very much appreciative for a lot of things that Mark has done and said and written through the years. He has been a friend in ministry. But what I would say is that he's completely wrong on this issue and it has hurt so many people. His lack of position on this issue or really his position that's gone in the opposite direction. When it comes to one issue voting, we need to think in terms of, OK, yes, there are other issues worthy of consideration.

That's without saying. There certainly are many, many things that we should be thinking about when we go to the polls. But any candidate who would be willing to suggest or to lead or to create opportunities for more abortion or for the support of the killing of babies should not be someone that a Christian should be willing to vote for.

And as we see so many times, the issue of ethnicity is brought into that, as Mark did in this very clip. What we need to remember is that primarily speaking right now, the majority of Democrats and the majority of blacks who go to the polls to vote for Democrats, we need to remember that they're supporting abortion. But when we think about that, we also need to be mindful of the reality that Planned Parenthood was started by Margaret Sanger, who was in many ways in favor of eradicating the black race, quote unquote, in her terms. And so eugenics was a part of the foundation of Planned Parenthood. And now you have black leaders like Stacey Abrams and others like here in the state of Georgia who are running on the very campaign strategy to make it more accessible for black people to kill their babies, which is just unbelievable. So just logic says this is backwards. We should be standing for life.

So as a Christian, I would agree with the late R.C. Sproul that we should not even be willing to vote for someone who's running for dog catcher if he says that he's going to support abortion. And so we should stand against individuals who are corrupt and demonstrate their corruptness as a leader by willing to support abortion and to make it more accessible in a state or even across the nation. So that's problematic. Now, as it pertains to Donald Trump, you can go back and watch the clips for yourself.

They're accessible there on YouTube and various places. But you can see in the debate, specifically the debate between he and Hillary Clinton, where he was making it abundantly clear if he was elected, he was going to be putting justices in office and he would labor to have Roe v. Wade overturned and sent back to the states. And that's exactly what he was committed to.

It's exactly what he did. And yet Christian leaders have shamed the church for this, quote unquote, one issue voting. And so now the question would be, this is the question that I would have for those very same evangelical leaders that shamed the one issue voting before. What will they do now that Roe v. Wade is overturned and is turned back over to the state? And this entire Roe v. Wade decision is going to excite the base of Democrats who are going to try to now use a one issue vote to excite their base to go to the polls to make abortion more accessible. So now how will they speak to the other side of the fence on this very issue of one issue voting? Excellent point, because it is going to be used.

They're already saying that. You hear Democrats saying that this has got to be an election issue, this here coming up in the midterms. Pastor Josh Byce with us today on The Christian Real View, the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church in outside Atlanta, Georgia, also the founder and president of G3 Ministries. All these links for what he's doing are on our website, thechristianrealview.org. Just one more question on abortion, because it's such a huge issue that just took place. And before we get into a couple other things, you talk about in one of your columns, you say the job of a pastor is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, Ephesians 4, verse 11. Such equipping would necessitate applying the Bible to the brokenness of abortion and how the Church of Jesus Christ can learn to rejoice and prepare for war in the wake of the Supreme Court's ruling on the Dobbs case. So it isn't just about abortion.

There are people who want to get them. The people need to be ministered to. And there's all different really ramifications of something like this, as there were before this was even overturned. How should Christians be involved now that this has been overturned federally, nationally, and it's going to go back to the states? How should Christians be involved and churches be involved? Well, I think the first thing that churches should do is they should be educating their people and preaching the Bible verse by verse, and they should be educating the church as a whole on the issue of abortion. I think the church should be using language that's very clear, without qualification, that abortion is murder. We don't need to raise another generation of young people who are being taught to substitute biblical words for more acceptable terminology, like adultery is an affair, for instance.

We need to actually use the language that the Scriptures uses and employ that terminology and disciple children so that they can understand that to actually take a baby's life, simply to sacrifice that child on the altar of convenience so that someone can have more accessibility to education or to reach their corporate America goals, for instance, that's murder. So we need to have that sort of conversation. We need to talk like that. Second of all, I would say the church needs to stop just getting onto social media and complaining over and over and over again on Facebook, as if the whole wide world sees what you're writing on Facebook, because it doesn't. We need to spend time actually talking to our representatives. We need to write letters, and we need to make them know and make them very much aware that the Church of Jesus Christ stands against abortion. And then furthermore, we need to engage in the real life scenario and the foundational level of abortion and adoption by going out to abortion clinics, by preaching the gospel, by being an advocate for the preborn, by offering up opportunities for adoption and teaching what those opportunities are. And so as to care for those who are genuinely unbelievers, but yet we're sharing with them the hope of the gospel, and yet at the very same time giving them hope and opportunities for this child to have a meaningful life, even if they determined that they're not capable of doing that, then we need to be able to point them to opportunities for adoption. There's all sorts of ways to get involved, but I think it starts with the pulpit preaching the Word of God rightly.

And furthermore, I would urge pastors to make sure that they're doing this in the presence of children, not when the children are back there in quote unquote Children's Church or some other place, but they need to hear their pastor talk like this. Okay, you've been hearing from Josh Byst, the pastor of Praisemill Baptist Church near Atlanta, Georgia, and also the founder and president of G3 Ministries today in the program. We have a whole second half of the interview with him that we will air next week as we talk about other issues beyond abortion. We're going to talk about why his church left the Southern Baptist Convention. We're also going to talk about the role of women within the church and the home, something that's being hotly debated within evangelicalism and specifically the Southern Baptist Convention right now. That all is going to be next week in part two. But the rest of the program today, we are going to hear from Colleen Tronson, the executive director of Metro Women's Center here in Minnesota near the Twin Cities. This is a pregnancy help center whose mission is to serve the Lord by offering hope and help to families experiencing pregnancy related challenges.

Today in part one of the interview, we're not going to get into the nuts and bolts of the overturning of Roe v. Wade. That will be in part two. But today we're going to hear her personal story of how God saved her out of a life that was being lived in opposition to him and transformed her to a life that would be glorifying to God. You will hear the inspiring story about how God saved Colleen right after this short break here on the Christian worldview radio program.

Help us sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ by calling 1-888-646-2233, visiting thechristianworldview.org or writing to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. And God loves you so much, you became a human being, suffered and died on the cross to take the punishment for the sin of the world. That means you don't have to end up in hell. God can legally forgive your sins because he's the lover of your soul. And then Jesus rose from the dead and defeated death. Mario, if you give up the battle and just say, God, I'm a rebel and you repent and trust in Christ, God will forgive every sin you've ever committed and grant everlasting life as a free gift. Do you believe what I'm saying? Yes. It's the gospel truth.

I wouldn't lie to you. Ray Comfort is a tireless proclaimer of the gospel and a sharp defender of the faith. Did you know that Ray has written a commentary for the Evidence Study Bible, a new King James version that is chock full of evidence for the faith and instruction on evangelism? To purchase the Evidence Study Bible, go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Be sure to take advantage of two free resources that will keep you informed and sharpen your worldview. The first is the Christian Worldview weekly email, which comes to your inbox each Friday. It contains a preview of the upcoming radio program along with need-to-read articles, featured resources, special events, and audio of the previous program. The second is the Christian Worldview Annual Print Letter, which is delivered to your mailbox in November. It contains a year-end letter from host David Wheaton and a listing of our store items, including DVDs, books, children's materials, and more. You can sign up for the weekly email and annual print letter by visiting thechristianworldview.org or calling 1-888-646-2233.

Your email and mailing address will never be shared and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233 or visit thechristianworldview.org. Welcome back to the Christian Worldview. I'm David Wheaton. You can visit our website thechristianworldview.org to get connected with this nonprofit radio ministry. Now to the interview with Colleen Tronson, the executive director of Metro Women's Center.

Colleen, tell us about your own story as a younger woman and what led you into this ministry as a pregnancy help center here in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul to help pregnant women. Well, thank you, David. I'm really grateful to be here today. I'm thankful that God is at work in the hearts and the minds and the lives of people every day, all day, all the time. And I'm grateful that he rescued me and he showed me that there's a different way to live and that no matter what my past was, that he could give me a bright future and he could give me hope.

And I think that's what we all need today is hope. You know, in 1973 Roe vs. Wade became the law of the land, and in 1977 I had what would be the first of three abortions. I bought into the lie that abortion would help me, but it really didn't.

I was raised Roman Catholic. I actually wore my pro-life bracelet to my first abortion that I had in 1977. I think like many people, when you find that you're in an unplanned pregnancy situation, that fear drives choices.

For me, fear really did drive my choices. I didn't want to be exposed as having been sexually active or having been pregnant. I panicked, and in that panic I went to a local abortion and had that procedure done. And when my turn came for that abortion, I went through the windowless double doors that were there at the clinic at that time. And when I went in, I was really terrified, but I was actually more afraid of not having the procedure done. And when they did the procedure, it was a vacuum suction abortion, and the contents of my uterus were taken out of my body and placed into a glass collection bottle under the table. And I cried because it was hurting, and the nurse told me to relax.

It'll be over soon. But my baby died that day, and part of me died too. It went away through that suction tubing, and it took something from me that I could never replace. So after I had that abortion, drugs and alcohol became good friends of mine. I started medicating myself with those and continued to be promiscuous and to not care too much what happened to me. It was a very dark time for me in my life. I ended up having two more procedures, two more abortions before 1982. And I just kept spiraling downward. I kept thinking that abortion would help me, but it didn't help me. Each time I went to the abortion clinic, I thought that I would have a rescue. And it kind of reminds me of the man who wrote The Amazing Grace, John Newton, when he was on a ship, and he was in a bad storm, and he was fighting against God. Finally, he realized that God was his only hope, and he came to Christ, and it was God's amazing grace that saved him. And I think, like me, I was tossed to and fro by my choices, by what the world was saying to me, and I got caught in a really bad place. What an agonizing story, Colleen.

And things actually wouldn't get any better. Tell us what happened next. The third time I went for the abortion, it was a later-term abortion, and the doctor showed me the contents of my uterus after I got done with the procedure. And he said, I don't want to see you here again. And just how dark I was, I thought, who do you think you are?

I'm a paying customer, and you're judging me. And I just couldn't wait to get out of there and light up a joint and have a cigarette and get on with my so-called life. And every time an abortion happened, the problem, or what I thought was the problem, drained into those collection bottles, but really, a bit of my heart drained out, too. You know, I continued to medicate myself with drugs and alcohol, and not surprisingly, I became pregnant for a fourth time. And this time, I was in a really bad spot.

And I remember leaving the Fargo, North Dakota area with my car, and I had about 20 bucks, and everything I owned was in my car. And I was pregnant, and I was fleeing. You know, the problem with fleeing is that you take yourself with you. And I think I felt like if I could just go someplace else, that I could find the solution.

I could find the answer. But I took myself with me, and so I was my worst enemy. So I ended up in Wisconsin, and I have a friend that lived there, and I thought, well, surely she'll help me take care of this problem. But she didn't have any money, and I was really angry, because I had always been able to escape.

I had always been able to get around the problem. But this time, I was stuck, and I had to begin to deal with the fact that I was pregnant, and that I was going to have to carry this pregnancy to term. And back in 1982, we still had the Yellow Pages, a giant book with all the phone numbers in it.

And I remember standing in a lobby of a grocery store, and back in 1982, we still had pay phones that you put the quarter in this lot. And I remember putting my quarter in this lot of that phone, and calling this place, and from the Yellow Pages, and saying, do you do abortions? And kind of ironic that I had called Catholic Charities, and they said, no, we don't do abortions, but maybe we could help you with something called adoption. And I had frankly never considered adoption before.

I had always solved my problem with abortion. So I went in and spoke with the lady there, and she told me, she said, you are a very angry young woman, and you really need to get some help. And I really, I told her what to do with that, because at that point, I felt like I was still in charge of my life, but I was not. And I left her office in a huff, and went back to where I was staying, and I began to really think about what she said. And it was kind of like the first yield sign in my life, where I thought, she's right, I really need to deal with my life.

And I don't know how, or what's going to happen, but I'm going to have to deal with my life. So I went back and visited with her, and the more we talked, the more I realized that I had to think about the other person that was involved in my crisis, and that was my unborn child. And as I began to think about that child, and what that child needed, and that this wasn't about me anymore, I began to feel hopeful instead of afraid. And I began to start to face the things that were in my life. And the following months, they were a painful time of decision making, and I knew that I was not ready to be a parent, even though I was 21 years old. I knew that this beautiful child needed a stable family, and needed things that I could not give him at that point in time. And I really believe that I began to fall in love with my child, which I hadn't allowed myself to do in the past, and to care about what happened to him. Colleen Tronson with us today here on the Christian Real View, telling your own story.

She now today is the executive director of Metro Women's Center, a pregnancy help center near Minneapolis. Colleen, it sounds like there's a bit of a turn taking place. God is changing some of your attitudes, and he's clearly starting to draw you to him. What happened next? So I didn't have a place to live permanently. So God, in his sovereignty, prepared a home for me to have, even before I knew I needed it, and even before the woman who took me in knew that I was coming. So I moved into her home and lived with her during the rest of my pregnancy. And when I was about seven months pregnant, I started to figure out, okay, what kind of a family do I want for this child?

And this was 1982. And that's when open adoption started to be a real common practice. So I got to pick the family for my son, I got to meet the family, I got to arrange my situation with them. And I had that privilege of knowing his adoptive families prior to birth. And I got to have his adoptive mom as my labor companion when he was born. So when I gave birth to that beautiful baby boy in March of 1982, his adoptive mom was with me. She was my labor companion, she cut the cord when he was born, she held him even before I did. We both got to rejoice that he was here, he was born. I got to rejoice because he was the first child that I got to see, and that I got the privilege of bringing to term, and she got the privilege of becoming a mother. So was that the hardest thing I've ever done in my life?

Absolutely. Seeing the most beautiful baby in the world and looking at him and knowing that I wasn't going to be taking him home was a very difficult thing. It's not something that if you haven't experienced it, you don't understand the gut wrenching decision that it is, but it's also a decision that's for the best of your child. And I'm really grateful that I have today an ongoing relationship with my son.

He just turned 40, and we've had a relationship throughout his life. And I'm thankful for the gift of open adoption. And I'm thankful that for the first time in my life, when I was pregnant with him, I started thinking about the other person involved in my crisis.

Colleen Tronson with us today on the Christian Real View, the executive director of Metro Women's Center near Minneapolis. After your baby boy was adopted, what happened next? So during that pregnancy time, I had started to make some outward changes in my life. I stopped the chemical use and the promiscuity, but still my heart hadn't changed. And within two months of my son's birth, I was really back to my old ways. I contracted a sexually transmitted disease which led to a serious hospitalization. And that slowed me up a little bit, but I was still determined to do what pleased me. I had had that moment of clarity where I thought about that other person, my son, but I still wasn't thinking about God.

After I recovered from that illness, I went back to work and I had got a little job at a Perkins restaurant and a customer that was coming into the restaurant, he began to talk to me about God. And I invited him to my house for dinner because I thought he was cute. And I thought, well, you know, he's going to be just like all the other guys that I had known in the past.

We'll have dinner and then we'll have intimacy. And God fooled me. This young man, he brought his guitar to my house and he shared songs that he had written while he was serving time in a state prison. The songs that he shared reflected God's love and his desire to show grace to people. You know, in the Bible, I found Romans 3 23, which told me that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And the promise in John 3 16. It gave me hope.

You know, God also loves the world, even me that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believe within him should not perish but have everlasting life. You know, I had to begin to see the truth about my life from God's perspective, I was a hottie proud and a selfish woman and I was in desperate need of a savior. And he yielded my rebellious and sinful life to him and I received Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. You know, as I was mourning over my sin I was comforted to read Isaiah 118 it says, Come now, and let us reason together say at the Lord, though your sins are a red like crimson, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool, not my life, in particular, had contained plenty of scarlet but through God's amazing grace he washed me white as snow. He didn't give me what I deserved.

Instead, he showed me incredible mercy. Romans a one tells us that there's no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. And I just pray that for each person who doesn't know that there is hope in Christ I pray that they would come to know that there is no sin too hard for God not to forgive. But we first have to humble ourselves and that's a, that's a difficult thing for us humans because we're very proud people.

We are. This is an amazing testimony of God's grace and the U-turn the turnaround. Just like we see in Ephesians to the before and after picture. So how did God begin to change you know once I repented David, you know, God began to change me from the inside out.

Someone once said that life can be the same after losing a trinket but not after losing a treasure, and I lost three treasures when I aborted my children, and I lost more when I squandered my sexual purity in search of some sort of fulfillment. He was so gracious, he granted me mercy and grace and salvation from my sins through his son Jesus Christ, but, you know, he also granted me something else very special. He granted me the privilege of marrying that man who led me to Christ, and we just celebrated ten years of marriage this year. There's yet another expression of God's grace in my life over the next five years of my life.

God granted me the joy of giving birth to two more beautiful sons. I was amazed by that because he allowed life to emerge from a place where death had once reigned, both in my womb, and in my heart, and I'm so grateful to God, and I'm so thankful that someone shared the gospel with me, and my husband later said, you know you look like you needed a friend, and I did I needed Jesus I needed to have the friendship of God and everyone needs that, whether you're a man or a woman whether you've been involved in abortion or not. We're all separated from God, because of our sin but Jesus came, not so the world would be condemned but so that the world would be saved and I'm so grateful for that and I love to talk to people about the gospel, and to talk to people about hope. And I think we're living in an amazing time when as Christians, we have an opportunity to be ambassadors for Christ, and to share the love of God. I mean this world is so vile and angry, but if we can show people, the love of God, and the peace of God that we can have when we know him.

What a gift, that would be to people. Yeah, it's hard to even follow up with a comment. I love hearing your story. It is so touching and powerful and actually encouraging on so many levels how we as sinners can go so deep into our sin, and yet, God is there to offer forgiveness and restoration and miracles in our life of meeting a man and sharing the gospel with you and coming to saving faith, the greatest miracle of all and getting married and having two children of your own. It's just an amazing story. I thank you for sharing that with us today. And unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today.

I was anticipating talking to Colleen who is the executive director of Metro Women's Center here in the Twin Cities about the overturning of Roe v. Wade and what it means and all the different statistics and where we go from here, but that's going to have to be next week. I think her own testimony was enough just to think about and consider God's goodness and his grace. If you have never come to saving faith and put your trust and faith in Jesus Christ as your savior and your Lord, repented of your sin, I would just encourage you to do that today. The Bible says, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If you want to find out more, go to our website, thechristianrealview.org and click on the page, What Must I Do to Be Saved? Thank you for joining us today on The Christian Real View.

In just a moment, there will be all kinds of information on how you can connect and support this nonprofit radio ministry. Let's be encouraged. We may live in a dark and sinful world where abortion is celebrated, but praise God that he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Until next time, think biblically, live accordingly, and stand firm. The mission of The Christian Real View is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end. To hear a replay of today's program, order a transcript, or find out What Must I Do to Be Saved?, go to thechristianrealview.org or call toll-free 1-888-646-2233. The Christian Real View is a listener-supported nonprofit radio ministry furnished by the Overcomer Foundation. To make a donation, become a Christian Real View partner, order resources, subscribe to our free newsletter, or contact us, visit thechristianrealview.org, call 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Thanks for listening to The Christian Real View.