Evangelicals and Downgrade Denial

Evangelicals in downgrade denial. That is a topic we'll discuss today right here on the Christian Real View Radio program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host. The Christian Real View is a nonprofit, listener-supported radio ministry. We are able to broadcast on the radio station, website, or app on which you are listening today because of the support of listeners like you.

Thank you. You can connect with us by calling our toll-free number, 1-888-646-2233, or visiting thechristianrealview.org. In several programs this year, we have examined the theological war that is taking place within the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination and the one that trains the most pastors in their seminaries. The war is a microcosm of what took place way back in the early Church, more recently in the mainline Protestant denominations like the United Methodist Church or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Episcopal Church, and so on, in what is now taking place across evangelicalism today. A downgrade in the Church occurs when biblical doctrines are compromised, redefined, or quote-unquote updated to be compatible with non-regenerate society. So, for example, the feminist movement in broader society influences churches to put women in pastoral roles where they exercise authority over men and preach to men in violation of 1 Timothy chapter 2, which says in part, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.

Very clear. Or, Marxist-based critical race theory in broader society influences churches to quote, increase diversity by making decisions according to skin color. That's what the Bible calls the sin of partiality. Meanwhile, those pushing the compromise deny there is any compromise and most Christians proceed on as if there is quote, nothing to see here. That is not the case for Pastor Josh Bice, who has carefully discerned the liberal direction of the Southern Baptist Convention, leading to his church withdrawing from the denomination. He joins us today on the Christian worldview.

Later in the program, we're going to hear part two of our conversation with Colleen Tronson, the executive director of Metro Women's Center, a pregnancy help center here in Minnesota, who will explain the ramifications of the overturning of Roe versus Wade. But first, let's get to the interview with Pastor Josh Bice. Josh, let's change gears here to the Southern Baptist Convention and you have made a statement that your church, Praisemeal Baptist Church, has separated from the Southern Baptist Convention.

Let me just read what you wrote here. You said, over the past decade or more, things begin to shift with the SBC leadership, Southern Baptist Convention leadership, that move the once theologically conservative denomination in a leftward direction. The biggest catalyst to this leftward movement undoubtedly was the acceptance of the social justice agenda, which has resulted in the greatest downgrade in our modern era of church history.

Big statement, but I think it's a true statement. Any denial of this downgrade is simply a refusal to report the facts about where the SBC is today, where the SBC was yesterday, and where the SBC is moving tomorrow. This downgrade, you go on to say, involves compromise on theological levels such as complementarianism, or the roles of men and women in the church. Another issue of ecclesiology, the office and function of an elder, and most importantly of all is the gospel.

Then you put in parentheses, the social justice movement has replaced theology with victimology, resulting in the rise of a new religion. And you say, we as elders determined that it will be a violation of our conscience and a misuse of money to invest in a system that has clearly rejected all forms of correction in private and public settings. Therefore, we are no longer an SBC church, but we are Baptist and will continue to cooperate with other like-minded churches and pastors for the work of missions and theological education for the glory of God. Now, before I ask you the question, let me just say a counter to that is former president James Merritt tweeted out recently, and I read this last week when we had Tom Buck on the program, James Merritt wrote, our convention is headed in the right direction and there is in capital letters, no drift, capital letters, none.

Ignore anyone who says otherwise. So my question for you, Josh, is how do two people look at the same thing and come to two completely different conclusions and tell us more about why you decide to pull out of the Southern Baptist Convention as a church? I don't really know if I can answer the question on how two people can look at the same thing and come to various conclusions other than to say what's in it for those individuals, what benefits each individual might play into the answer to that question. In other words, what does James Merritt have to gain by supporting the quote unquote system of the SBC? And I think that you can just look historically at how he's benefited as being a leader, a mover and a shaker within the political sphere of the SBC, this largest Protestant, not true denomination, but network of churches in the United States of America, numbering some 47,000 churches.

But to say that the SBC has no drift is to look at the sky that's blue and argue that it's really orange or that it's black or something that is completely off base. Everyone in the Southern Baptist Convention that knows anything about what's happening in the SBC, I'm talking about the people that actually show up at the meetings. Those people know that something is not right. You can see this with Russell Moore and how he was leading to the left, and now he's no longer leading the ERLC.

Why is that? Well, it's because of the fact that there were problems there. You can look at the adoption of Resolution 9 in 2019 in Birmingham, which was the controversial resolution that passed stating that the SBC was to adopt and employ critical race theory, which is a hot button sort of term that's now floating around even in living room conversations across America now, to employ critical race theory and intersectionality as analytical tools for gospel ministry.

Now just let that sink in for a moment. The SBC, this massive denominational group, this conservative group of pastors that once fought a bloody war over the subject of biblical inerrancy, that the Bible is the word of God, years ago from 1979 all the way through the 2000s. And what you have is you have this group that was beating a massive drum on biblical inerrancy has now adopted worldly ideologies that are in contradiction to the gospel of Jesus Christ as analytical tools for gospel ministry. So what are they saying?

Well, here's what they're communicating. The Bible is the word of God. It's inerrant, but the Bible is not sufficient. You need something other than the Bible to then help you reach a broken, lost world.

The Bible is not enough. That's what they're saying. And so to suggest that the SBC is not in decline, that there's no downgrade, that there's no leftward movement is to be out of touch with reality. Look presently at the SBC.

What is the SBC fighting over today? Well, the SBC is fighting over the issue of the office and function of elder. Can women actually pastor and serve in leadership capacities in the church and occupy these offices? Or can they be called a pastor, but not be ordained to that specific office? That was a massive controversy at this past convention with regard to Rick Warren and Saddleback Church. And yet the credentials committee, after a full year to evaluate the fact that he and his church has ordained three women to the office of elder, and now he's stepping away from the pulpit and appointing his successor to be a co-pastor team, a husband and wife, and the credentials committee of the SBC is inconclusive on whether or not Saddleback should be disfellowshipped.

And so to say that there's no leftward drift is to be out of touch with reality. Yeah, it's a diversionary, don't believe your lying eyes tactic that will probably fool a lot of people, but not those who are grounded in Scripture and have some discernment. Josh Byce with us today on The Christian Real View.

You can find all the contacts for him and his church, Praise Mill Baptist, just near Atlanta, Georgia, and also his ministry, G3 Ministries, at our website, thechristianrealview.org. Josh, I want to dig into what you were saying about this parsing that's taken place by Southern Baptist of the office of a pastor and the function of a pastor. They've kind of divided that out and saying, well, a woman can hold the office, but the function of a pastor is really for the lead pastor who's going to be the one preaching to men or to men and women, so that's really more for men. It's sort of been this confusion of the issue, and they've also developed this other term called soft complementarianism.

Okay, so there's always these new terms, again, just like almost like broader society with the abortion issue, it's a woman's right to reproductive health care or something like this. What are they trying to say with this parsing of the office versus the function of a pastor? Presently, what they're suggesting is that women should be able to be called a pastor, that she's teaching and she's pastoring, she's shepherding, she's making disciples in the life of the church, but yet she's just simply not ordained to the official office of a pastor.

That's what they're saying. The problem with that is that we just don't have a biblical example for it, so again, if we're going to build our theology, it would do us well to build our theology on what the Bible actually says rather than what the Bible doesn't say, and so for years within the SBC, a common practice has been calling women ministers, children's minister or music minister or minister to women or whatever it might be, and this has just been a common thing that's been happening in the SBC for a very long time. In many ways, it has set us up for this very moment, for this very debate, and now with the rise of this latest feminist wave, this latest feminist revolution that's taking place across our society at large, it's now spilling over into the church and it's spilling over into conservative evangelical denominations, and so now the question is, can we allow a woman to stand and speak and preach to a mixed audience of men and women, to the whole church even on a Lord's day, yet she's just not ordained to the office of pastor?

Is that permissible? And we've seen individuals like Beth Moore and others who have done that very thing. Well, the problem is it's just simply out of touch with what the Bible teaches. The Bible actually teaches that the office of pastor is for men, and we see that right there clearly on the pages of scripture in 1 Timothy chapter number three and Titus chapter number one.

It is reserved for men. Now, the reality is that when the Bible talks about the office of pastor, it always connects it to this idea of headship, and headship was rooted in creation. We see that in the text of scripture. You can even see in Paul's own argument when he's discussing the issue of leadership and in men leading, he then cites the creation account. You can go to 1 Timothy chapter two, and you can see that, for instance, where he literally cites the creation account. In 1 Timothy chapter number two, when he talks about the fact that he does not permit, this is verse 12, a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet. The very next verse, verse 13, is a citation from the creation account. For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. So the point is that from the very beginning, God had a blueprint that was intending to flow through society and through the home and through the church. We see that men are called to be the leaders.

Paul also references that sort of thing as he talks about Christ and the church in Ephesians chapter five. So all through the New Testament, you see this connection to biblical headship and women being submissive to their husbands, which is not a bad thing. That's not oppressive.

That's actually a really, really good thing. It's for the good of both men and women, and it's for the strengthening of homes, and it's for the strengthening of local churches. Women don't flourish when we extend opportunities of leadership that go beyond the boundaries that God himself instituted.

So we need to always remember that. And this idea that the feminist movement wants to put on display, that women need to be released from the shackles of this oppressive ideology in the Bible. They should be allowed to do whatever they want to whenever they want to, wherever they want to. That's just anti-God, is all that is. It's anti-Bible. Women don't flourish when they're called to do the role of a man, and churches don't flourish when they're led by women rather than men. And so we need to just do what God says in his word and refuse to blush and to be ashamed of what God's word actually says, and to do this with love and to do this with joy, with this confidence that God's word is clear. And we don't need to bow to the whims of culture. Yeah, so well said, Josh. Thank you for being clear. Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.

Appreciate your conviction and clarity on that topic. Pastor Josh Weiss with us today on the Christian worldview. All right, we need to take a short break for some ministry announcements. Stay tuned.

We'll be right back after this. For a limited time, we are offering my boy Ben for a donation of any amount to the Christian worldview. The book is the true story of a yellow lab that I had back when I was competing on the professional tennis tour.

It's about relationships with Ben, my parents, with the childhood friend I would eventually marry, but ultimately with God, who causes all things, even the hard things, to work together for good. You can order a signed and personalized copy for yourself or for your friend who enjoys a good story, loves dogs, sports, or the outdoors, and most of all needs to hear about God's grace and the gospel. My boy Ben is owned by the Christian worldview.

It's 264 pages, hardcover, and retails for $24.95. To order, go to thechristianrealview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Scripture commands that children are to be brought up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Offering biblically sound resources for children is one of our top ministry priorities. At our store at thechristianrealview.org, you will find carefully selected children's Bibles and books, along with video and audio resources. Check out the Bible infographics for kids books, Little Pilgrim's Progress, and the popular Adam Raccoon set. Theo is a 15-episode video series addressing key doctrines of the faith that is a must-see for children and adults. Satan and the world are bent on capturing the heart and mind of your child.

Instead, get sound resources that will train them up in the way they should go. Browse and order at thechristianrealview.org or give us a call for recommendations at 1-888-646-2233. That's 1-888-646-2233 or thechristianrealview.org. Welcome back to the Christian Real View.

I'm David Wheaton. Be sure to visit our website, thechristianrealview.org, where you can subscribe to our free weekly email and annual print letter. Order resources for adults and children and support the ministry. Now back to the interview with Pastor Josh Byss. Just one more question about this issue of women preaching to a mixed audience or preaching to men or holding the office of pastor in churches. I want to play what Rick Warren said when he ordained three women to be pastors in his church saddle break.

I believe this was last year sometime. And then just get a follow up with a question for you. All right.

Take out your message notes. Tonight is a historic night. We're going to ordain our first three women pastors. But we don't do anything without a biblical basis. So I'm going to run through this really quickly.

You know that I'm going to speed through this when I have already filled in the blanks on some of it. We don't base our practices on popular opinion or what culture tells us to do. It doesn't really matter what any other church does, what any other organization does. The Bible says the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. The Bible says do not copy or conform to the pattern of this world. We don't base our practices on manmade traditions.

Okay. Jesus said it's useless to worship me if you replace what God commands with your own made up rules. Matthew 15 nine. Jesus commanded that the church leadership is to be different from the world's view of leadership.

Matthew 20. In this world, leaders act like powerful rulers, but among you, it is to be completely different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must become the servant of all. So we base not just on leadership, but we base everything we do, all of our practices on the authority of scripture, all scriptures inspired by God. And it is useful for teaching the truth, for rebuking error, for correcting faults, for giving instruction for right living so that we who serve God will be fully qualified. Notice, we who serve God, who's that? You, the core.

We who serve God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good work. Okay. I'm going to stop it right there, Josh. It's just really unbelievable. Rick Warren's a very smart man.

He would have to be the run the empire that he has been, he and his wife have been part of building. He knows very well what scripture says about this and to say that we don't do anything without having a biblical basis for it. You just read those passages in 1 Timothy 2, 1 Timothy 3, and Titus as well. How far do you see this going, this issue of female pastors, women preaching to men in churches, going within now, let's say, more conservative evangelicalism? Because this was the issue that got into the mainline denominations. It was kind of the foot in the door that's led to them basically being liberal social clubs today. Do you see this idea of egalitarianism, so to speak, going very far? Or is it going to stop maybe with Rick Warren and sort of that level of type churches?

What do you think? History is always a good teacher. And so you can look back at church history and you can learn a lot of lessons. If you look back at the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, you can see that the Southern Baptist Convention has already done this before. So it's not to say that the Southern Baptist Convention is immune from these errors.

Good, good, capable men once led the Southern Baptist Convention and somehow, some way, the SBC still managed to drift off hard to the left. So back years ago, in the late or the early 80s, you might say, you had a woman named Molly Marshall, who was actually the associate dean of the School of Theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. She was an ordained pastor. She was teaching things such as post-mortem salvation opportunities.

And she was wickedly liberal. And yet she was holding a very influential position within the flagship seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention. And so the SBC has already done this before. To think that the SBC could not repeat this same mistake over again is just to be out of touch with reality.

Rick Warren's church, Saddleback, is the largest church within the 47,000 churches that make up the Southern Baptist Convention. One would have to suggest that that perhaps plays into the rationale as to why they were not disfellowshipped immediately when they had a full year to review the case of Saddleback. Could it be because of pragmatism?

Could it be because of money? But what I predict will happen with the Southern Baptist Convention, unless God himself just smiles upon the SBC, we're going to see the SBC sooner or later is going to follow right down the main street with the rest of the mainline denominations. And egalitarianism will once again rule the Southern Baptist Convention. And we're seeing that.

I mean, look, when Rick Warren goes to a microphone at the convention in June of this year and he basically sets his case before the SBC from a microphone, he received a standing ovation. So this is not what we would call a conservative, a truly conservative group of churches any longer. And so I predict that it's going to head off in that direction of egalitarianism. It's going to jump even far beyond soft complementarianism. It's just going to continue to go hard to the left.

That would be what I would predict. And then I would just give a critique of Rick Warren. You know, in that clip that you played, it's sort of demeaning when a pastor has to hand out an outline with little fill in the blanks and that sort of thing. I mean, just preach the Bible, just preach the Bible line by line, precept by precept, and let the word of God speak and treat the church with some respect as if they're capable of understanding. The church is not completely ignorant. And adults need to be treated like adults, not like Vacation Bible School for adults.

And then furthermore, in that clip that you played, he also stated that he was going to rush through. Why not take your time and just unpack what the Bible actually says? And I would argue that the reason he's rushing through and filling in blanks for them is because he's not teaching the Bible properly. Pastor Josh Byst with us today on the Christian Real View. Just as a last question here, maybe a parting exhortation by you of what we've been discussing over this interview, whether it's regard to what's going on with the cultural debates like abortion, theological downgrade, as you talked about with the issue of social justice and the role of women within churches and the home, other issues going on, even the issue of homosexuality, which we didn't discuss, how that's kind of pushing in the door of the church as well too. What exhortation do you have for Christians listening today, local churches listening, pastors, elder boards of local churches listening today, and how they can stand firm on God and his word?

What is your charge for them? And then also, maybe in light of what you're trying to do, even outside your own church with the G3 ministry and conferences and that kind of thing. Pastor Bryan Byst My exhortation to the church, my exhortation to Christians would be to be faithful Bereans and students of the word of God. You know, when a banker is taught to be able to identify counterfeit money, that banker is not schooled in every possible example of counterfeit currency. The banker is really schooled in such a way as to be an expert on the real thing so that they can detect a counterfeit when it comes across their path. And that would be my exhortation to the church to be such a student of the Bible, to be such a student of scripture and the true gospel, that when anything comes along, that's a counterfeit. When any false teacher comes your way, no matter how charismatic or how persuasive they may seem to be, that if it's not in lockstep with the word of God, it will be very clear to you.

You don't have to be an expert on critical race theory, intersectionality. You don't have to know everything about Marxism and everything under the sun to be able to see that these godless ideologies are antithetical to the word of God and in contradiction to scripture. So be a faithful student of the word. Pastors don't have to be steeped in the deep understanding of these various different ideologies and philosophies. But what pastors need to be able to do is to open the Bible and week by week proclaim the excellencies of Christ and the true word of God, the full counsel of God's word. And then the church will be able to spot these false teachers in these false doctrines.

I would also encourage pastors to be willing to name names when necessary. It doesn't mean that you have to be ugly or attack their character. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about dealing with substance. We're talking about dealing with what they have said publicly, what they have written publicly, as I've done even in this very interview with with regard to Mark Dever.

I mean, we just have to be honest and say what he said is wrong and what he has written is wrong. And we have to be willing to do that. And so that would be my exhortation.

And then once again, my final parting exhortation would be this. If you're within a group of churches, whether it's the Southern Baptist Convention or any other group of churches that consistently wants to go to the left, it is never sinful to separate from those groups. I do believe you can make a biblical argument for partnering together with other churches for missions and Christian education.

But if you get to a place where you can't, in good faith and in good conscience, continue to support the Christian education or the church planting and missions that that group of churches is engaged in, well then find a better group of churches to partner with. You can find out more about the G3 Church Network at our website, g3men.org. And again, we're a conservative group of Reformed Baptists that love the Lord and love the local church. And we love to engage in church planting. And we have monthly meetings and enjoy great fellowship together. So I would direct your attention to that group.

Well, we have that website, g3men.org linked on our website in case you can't remember the URL there. But Josh, we so much appreciate your taking the time and your diligent study of the word to explain some of these issues that are confronting the church today. And thank you for your truthfulness as well. All of God's best and grace to you, Josh, and your family and praise Mill Baptist Church. Thank you, brother.

Privileged to be with you today. Now, if you missed the first part of the interview with Pastor Josh Bice, you can go to our website, thechristianrealview.org. And that first part aired on July 2. It reminded me as he answered the question about former SBC President James Merritt saying there is no compromise going on within the Southern Baptist Convention. What a conservative commentator once said about how liberals tried to deny when compromise is taking place. Number one, they'll say, it's not happening.

And this is a harmful conspiracy theory. But eventually, when it becomes so obvious that it is happening, they'll say number two, well, it's happening. And it's a good thing that it's happening. And then eventually, they'll get to number three, and they'll be forcing on you saying, we're going to make this mandatory for your children. Well, this is really similar to what's taking place in the SBC.

They'd like to say, oh, there's no compromise taking place. Eventually, they'll say, it's a good thing what's happening. And you should make this a part of the DNA of your church. All right, we need to make a quick transition here because now we have the second part of the interview with Colleen Tronson. She is the Executive Director of Metro Women's Center, a pregnancy help center here in Minnesota. If you didn't hear her testimony last week, how she came to saving faith, that is a must-hear. That is on the July 2, 2022 program. You can hear that at thechristianworldview.org or in our podcast feed as well.

After this short break for some ministry announcements, we'll get to part two of the interview with Colleen Tronson about the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Scripture commands that children are to be brought up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Offering biblically sound resources for children is one of our top ministry priorities. At our store at thechristianworldview.org, you will find carefully selected children's Bibles and books along with video and audio resources. Check out the Bible infographics for kids books, Little Pilgrim's Progress, and the popular Adam Raccoon set. Theo is a 15-episode video series addressing key doctrines of the faith that is a must-see for children and adults. Satan and the world are bent on capturing the heart and mind of your child.

Instead, get sound resources that will train them up in the way they should go. Browse and order at thechristianworldview.org or give us a call for recommendations at 1-888-646-2233. That's 1-888-646-2233 or thechristianworldview.org. For a limited time, we are offering My Boy Ben for a donation of any amount to The Christian Worldview. The book is the true story of a yellow lab that I had back when I was competing on the professional tennis tour.

It's about relationships with Ben, my parents, with the childhood friend I would eventually marry, but ultimately with God, who causes all things, even the hard things, to work together for good. You can order a signed and personalized copy for yourself or for your friend who enjoys a good story, loves dogs, sports, or the outdoors, and most of all needs to hear about God's grace and the gospel. My Boy Ben is owned by The Christian Worldview.

It's 264 pages, hardcover, and retails for $24.95. To order, go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thanks for joining us today on The Christian Worldview. I'm David Wheaton, the host. Just a reminder that today's program and past programs are archived at our website, thechristianworldview.org.

Transcripts and short takes are also available. Now let's get to the interview with Colleen Tronson of Metro Women's Center about the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. Colleen, let's get into some of the ramifications of the Supreme Court overturning this law from, I believe it was 1973, Roe vs. Wade.

What does this mean and what does it not mean? Well, when Roe vs. Wade was enacted in 1973, it took away the state's rights to govern how abortion was regulated in their states, and it took it to the federal level. What the ruling did just recently was it turned the right to govern around abortion back to each individual state, and I believe that's where it should have stayed in the first place. Now, instead of one giant fight about abortion, we're going to have 50 little fights about abortion. Each state can regulate abortion now according to the laws that they have. I believe 26 states have either banned abortion completely or they have trigger laws that will now come into play once they're certified by their state governments. So what it means is now that each state will decide for themselves what they want abortion to look like.

It doesn't mean that a natural miscarriage will be considered an elective abortion, and it doesn't mean that treatment for an ectopic pregnancy will be considered an elective abortion. The hysteria that's out there is hyper-crazy. Colleen Tronson with us today on The Christian Real View. Tucker Carlson recently covered the issue that major companies in our country have promised to pay their own employees $4,000 to be able to travel to another state that allows abortion to get an abortion.

Let me play that soundbite. So corporate America, in response to this, developed a new model, hire single women. At many big companies, including in the traditionally male banking sector, young women now make up the majority of new employees, and you can see why they do. They work hard, they're reliable, they tend to be loyal to the companies they work for. The one downside to hiring young women is they can get pregnant. If you're running the HR department at Citibank, that is the last thing you want. Children make your health care plan more expensive. Worse than that, they tend to compete with an employee's attention. Responding to after-work emails seems less pressing to most new moms than putting their own kids to bed. That's a huge problem for big companies.

They have every incentive to prevent their workers from having children. You can't say that out loud, of course, it'd be too obvious. Give us the best years of your life, and in exchange, we'll pay you what's effectively a subsistence wage and whatever overpriced urban hellscape we're based in, and then take from you the one thing that might give your existence meaning and joy in middle age, which is having children. That's the deal we're offering.

That is the deal they're offering, but they can't say that. It would sound like what it is, which is exploitation. No better than what the cotton mills once did to 14-year-old girls. So instead of saying that, which is the truth, corporate America uses the language of the social movement it created, feminism, to spin the entire arrangement as some sort of progressive liberation movement.

Fight the patriarchy, have an abortion. It's got nothing to do with lowering our labor costs, we promise. But of course it does have everything to do with lowering their labor costs. Across the country, they are making that case, abortion as liberation. Many of the biggest American companies are now paying female employees to have abortions, to end their pregnancies.

That would include Microsoft and Apple, Facebook, Yelp, Netflix, Comcast, Goldman Sachs, Citibank, JP Morgan, Nike, Starbucks, et cetera, et cetera. Dick's Sporting Goods is offering female employees up to $4,000 if they get an abortion. Does the company offer the same amount to female employees who want to have children? Well, the editor at Breitbart wondered that. They asked Dick's Sporting Goods that question, but the company didn't even respond.

And that tells you the answer. Colleen, when you hear that audio from Tucker Carlson's program on Fox about corporations and the financial incentive that they're trying to offer for their female employees to have abortion, what kind of world are we living in when you hear that? It makes me sort of speechless. It's an abomination. And it's another signal to me that abortion is an idol that demands to be worshipped.

And that however it can be, it must be worshipped and it must not be defied. And people are caving into it right and left because when you don't cave into it, bad things happen to you. You get your pregnancy resource center bombed. You get your pregnancy resource center targeted with graffiti and rocks thrown through your windows because you stand for life. And it's just another level to me of how demonic the abortion business is and what lengths it will go to keep it in play. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head saying there's something very, very dark here and even demonic and devilish about the glee with which advocates for abortion, not just the young woman who is maybe like in the situation you were, there's a different mentality there than those who are pushing this as an idol, you call it. It's a sacrament of a significant portion of our country to be able to, well, to be explicit, murder is the word, which is the intentional killing of another human being. And that is what's taking place.

And yet at the same time, God is there offering forgiveness for those who would repent and put their trust in His Son to pay the penalty for that sin and every other sin. Colleen Tronson today, the executive director of Metro Women's Center. It's a pregnancy help center here in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul. I looked at the Minnesota Department of Health yearly report that they have on quote-unquote induced abortions in Minnesota. Listeners will find this interesting about how many abortions there are yearly, who's getting them, what was the pregnancy, the result. So I'm just going to tick off a few statistics that stood out to me from this report.

So this is the last year they had it or last year the report I saw was from the year 2020. There were 9,100 abortions in Minnesota in 2020, intentional abortions. The most common age for those abortions, sometimes people will often think it's teenagers, but it's not, it's age 20 to 29 and then age 30 to 39.

So these are adults getting these abortions. The ethnicity of those getting abortions was of those 9,100. 4,200 were white, so getting nearly half. 2,500 were black. 7,400 of the 9,100 were not married.

Education, most were high school graduates or some college or college graduate. Those were the highest levels of abortions in those particular, in those 9,100 abortions. 6,400 of the 9,100 abortions took place before the baby was nine weeks old and then 1,100 were in the nine to 10 week range. So the vast majority were early, were first trimester abortions. And then what was the pregnancy the result of?

We often hear it's always about rape and incest and so forth. Well, that's not the reason these women are getting abortions, not even close. The vast majority of the respondents of those who got abortions of the 9,100 again do not want children at this time. That was the box they checked.

That was way over half. 5,200 were just do not want the child at this time. I think the second one was economic reasons. They claimed economically not able to care for a child. And then there was another category of women refused to answer.

That was another 2,700. But things like rape was only 48 incest, seven abortions. Others claimed emotional health.

985 claimed that or physical health being at stake. So the vast majority was though just do not want to have a child. Mention one more before people start drowning in statistics here. The number of abortions I thought was very interesting. Back in 1980, there were 19,000 abortions in Minnesota versus in 2020, there were 9,000. So my question for you, Colleen, is what do you make of those statistics that maybe pick out one or two that you thought was interesting that you've encountered? And what has led to the great reduction in abortion, at least in Minnesota?

It's all pretty overwhelming when you put it all together like that. And actually, the statistic that you cited about the number of abortions in Minnesota was actually underreported because one particular abortion facility underreported their abortions by about 1000. We're seeing more teenagers use the morning after pill, which they take within 72 hours after unprotected sex.

So that might be keeping the pregnancy from actually coming to term or even happening. We know that many young people, teenagers, especially parent their children and have lots of support for that in terms of schooling and ways that they can get help through the state. So we're seeing that many teenagers are considering life rather than abortion. The statistic about not wanting to have a child at this time really reflects to me the selfishness of our society. And I say that word selfishness carefully, because as humans, we're all fairly interested in preserving our lives the way we want them to be. And so I would say maybe rather than saying selfishness, I would say that we are self preservative. And having control is a big deal for us humans.

We want to be autonomous, we want to have things the way that we want it to be. And we believe that if we just use birth control, or if we just want things a certain way that we can control everything. And sometimes God says, Nope, you're gonna get pregnant, and it's going to be a challenge for you.

And you'll have to decide, are you going to do what the world says, and take the life of this child? Or are you gonna be strong and face this? You know, I think it's interesting, the old adage was like, you know, a woman can bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, she's strong enough to do anything. But it seems like in our culture and our society today, we say a woman can do anything but have a pregnancy that she doesn't want. And right, I say fully on that women are strong, we can face hard things. And our society cripples women when they say this child is an enemy of you, instead of saying this child is a gift from God to be loved and nurtured and cared for.

And we cripple women by saying that. And then after we encourage them to make the decision, or after we encourage them to decide for themselves what to do, and abortion doesn't turn out to be the way they thought it was going to be, or they suffer from physical or emotional or spiritual challenges after the fact, we say, well, you decided, isn't that just like the enemy? You know, he makes the choices seem so inviting. And he makes the choices seem so innocuous.

And then after we make the choice, he laughs at us and says, Yes, where's your God now? So yeah, those statistics are incredibly hard to look over. And we have those statistics in here in Minnesota, because the law says that people who perform abortions need to report those to the state legislature every year.

And sadly, that requirement is going to be up for debate. This summer here in Minnesota, in Minnesota, we have what we call common sense abortion laws, meaning we have parental notification, and we have abortion reporting laws, we have other laws in place or guidelines in place to protect women and to slow them down in a way to help them to see what's going on in their womb. And those laws in Minnesota are actually under attack right now. This summer, those on the other side want to repeal all of those common sense abortion laws that we have in Minnesota, which is where we get those statistics. One other thing that I read in that report from the Minnesota Department of Health, they had actually they keep track of abortions by an abortion doctor. Now they don't list the name of the doctor.

It's just Dr. A, Dr. B, Dr. C, they label them with a letter code. And the incredibly heart wrenching thing to read is that there were several on that that list that we're doing, you know, over 100 abortions a month. That's more than three a day. Wow, that's a deep, deep level of depravity and a denial of the truth of God's Word and what they're doing. And those people need to be prayed for that they would be so convicted to stop and to be convicted to repent. That part of the report was extremely troubling as well, even though there wasn't a name with it. There's people walking around amongst us who are going to work every day, so called work every day, killing children in a mother's womb.

And that was so hard even to consider. Colleen Tronson with us today on the Christian worldview. Colleen, just final question for you. We've talked about a lot today about this very sensitive major issue of abortion. What can people are listening from different parts of the country? What should churches, pastors, elder boards be doing to lead on this issue? What should Christians in those churches be doing at this particular time in our history, in this transitional time of going away from a federal law on abortion to now going back to the States? There's many things that we can continue doing that we're already doing, which is to offer hope and help to men and women who are involved with an unplanned or a difficult pregnancy situation. I would say prayer is always the way to the heart of God, making sure that our churches and our conversations with people are compassionate and that we listen well when people are telling us their stories.

I think God is very wise to give us two ears and one mouth. Sometimes we need to listen to a person's story to hear where they're coming from rather than to just listen to respond to what they say. So trying to listen to understand what they're saying, what their situation is, and to be gentle in our responses and to help them to see that while abortion might seem like the only way out, it's never necessary in terms of elective abortions. There may be situations where abortion is medically indicated, but those are rare. And for us as Christians in our culture to not shrink from the culture, but to engage the culture and to go forward with a message of compassion that says that women don't need abortion.

They need love and they need support and they need hope. I also think, too, that in our churches, there are probably women who have experienced abortion who have never told anybody about their abortion for fear of being judged and for fear of being shunned. And we need to make our churches the place where speaking about what has happened to you with abortion is not considered to be the unpardonable sin because it's not. And sometimes I hear people say things that I just cringe at things like, you know, women who abort are going to hell or women who abort should be sterilized because they don't value life or a woman should just keep her legs closed if that wouldn't happen. So one of the things we can do is to not say stupid things.

Be approachable to people who are in hard places because there but for the grace of God, go us. No, we are not immune from it. And I think even going back to your statistics that you were talking about, a lot of people, when you begin talking about abortion, they immediately go to those hard cases, those rape, incest to save the life of the mother. And those are the exceptions to why people have abortions. And someone who is raped isn't going to make the rape go away by having an abortion. It's not abortion isn't an eraser.

It won't erase the fact that she's been brutally damaged and it was a horrible thing that should never have happened to her. In fact, abortion can add another layer of grief and difficulty to a woman's life when she chooses that. And that child, if that child was conceived in rape, the circumstances of their conception doesn't change the fact that they're a human being created in the image of God. And in terms of the incest situation, what incest does is it victimizes someone who is vulnerable. And when that incest perpetrator encourages an abortion for that person, it victimizes them all over again. And it keeps that incest a secret. And keeps that person victimized rather than setting them free by exposing what has happened because of the incest. So those two exceptions that people talk about, I say, you know, what the woman needs is counseling and support and prayer.

She doesn't need an abortion, which will add another layer of trauma to her life. Colleen, we thank you for coming on the Christian Rule of Your Radio program today. Thank you for all you're doing to lead Metro Women's Pregnancy Help Center here in the Twin Cities.

And I know you probably speak for many similar organizations around the country. So we just wish all of God's best and grace to you as you continue in your important work. Thanks for coming on the program today. Well, and thank you, David, for raising awareness about the work of pregnancy resource centers and the need for churches and individuals, people of faith to stand for truth. Just as a quick follow up to the interview with Colleen, Elizabeth Warren, the leftist senator from Massachusetts recently said, quote, with Rogon, it's more important than ever to crack down on so-called crisis pregnancy centers that mislead and deceive patients seeking abortion care.

With that comment, Elizabeth Warren epitomizes what it means to call good evil and evil good. Thank you for joining us today on the Christian Rule of Your Radio program. In just a moment, there'll be all kinds of information on this nonprofit radio ministry.

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