TOPIC: Truths without the Truth - Part 2 of 2

Truths without the Truth. How Christians should view Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and those like them. Today is part two of our discussion with Travis Allen, pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado.

I'm David Wheaton, the host of the program, and our website is thechristianrealview.org. You know, Canadian Jordan Peterson is a psychology professor. He's the author of a wildly popular book, The Twelve Rules for Life, and he speaks to large audiences all over the world. Ben Shapiro is also a well-known author and speaker and has been called, quote, the voice of the conservative millennial movement. Both men are known for strongly pushing back against the cultural Marxist worldview that dominates higher education, the media, our culture, and the political left, and which seeks to overthrow those they perceive as the oppressors in our society, who are the Christians, the men, the males, the whites. And they want to create social justice for those they deem oppressed, who are women and homosexuals and minority ethnicities and religions.

And they're strident about this. Now, with Marxism being a God-rejecting humanistic worldview, many Christians find common cause with Peterson and Shapiro, who are standing up to the left at a more deeper philosophical and moral level than the typical left versus right battles of conservative political commentators that you hear on TV or radio, such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. But is there something that Christians should be wary of in being influenced by the worldview of Peterson and Shapiro, who mix human wisdom with some truths borrowed from Scripture, yet without the full truth of Jesus Christ? As I mentioned, Travis Allen, the pastor at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado, he joins us today for the second part of our conversation on truths without the truth. Let's get to the first segment of that interview. Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, who have a semblance of a worldview that Christians can agree with on some things, but miss the mark hugely when it comes to a sound biblical worldview that focuses in on who Christ is and what he did on the cross.

For us in the Bible as God's final revelation and fully sufficient revelation to us. Is there something lacking, Travis, in the church today that paves the way for these men being popular in society and with Christians? I mean, what keeps Christian apologists who maybe are just as smart and know all these same things and say all these same things, except for the fact that they're more biblical in nature, what keeps them from being as popular? Well, another great question, David. What is it that makes these folks attractive to evangelicals?

I think that there's a couple of answers to that. One, I think that evangelicalism for a long time has really flirted, if not fully embraced, the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. That God wants you feeling good, especially with, you might say, mega-seeker churches.

It's all about making people feel comfortable and at ease and giving them motivational speeches and pep talks every single Sunday. I think many evangelical Christians, true Christians, are just fed up with that. So when Jordan Peterson steps in and says, Listen, life is suffering, you opened with that very heartfelt story of someone who felt himself saved by Jordan Peterson acknowledging the suffering in the world, as he himself is struggling to not commit suicide, to get himself out of bed in the morning. So obviously a happy, clappy Christianity has no answers for a person like that.

And sadly, because of the breakdown of the family, the destruction of the family, the promotion of rampant kinds of sexual immorality, people's lives and relationships are absolutely destroyed. They are suffering and they want to come to church to understand the meaning of their suffering. What suffering means, how they live through it, what the significance of it is. Does God have anything to say about that? Turns out in his word, he has everything to say about that. So I think that many latch onto thinkers like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others who are repeating these same truths, that life is not about just filled with prosperity. This world and each individual is under a curse. We're under the curse and we're heading toward death. That is the result of the fall and sin in the world. We all understand that instinctively.

We live through it every single day, that struggle. And so that's part of the popular appeal of people like this is because they're not hearing this in their churches. They're hearing exactly the opposite. They're hearing some pastor who counts himself more of a therapist or a motivational speaker or a life coach who's kind of cheering them on without actually dealing with these deeper realities. I think that's part of the setup for an embrace by many evangelicals. I think the other side of it, though, is that evangelicals for a long time have been taught to be ashamed of the Bible. You heard Ben Shapiro in that soundbite talk about Kant trying to avoid the trap of having to cite the Bible.

Ben Shapiro himself, an Orthodox Jew who believes in the authority of the Old Testament Scriptures, says that he himself in his public debates and discourses tries very hard not to cite the Bible as an authority. That is not what Christ taught. Christ had no problem citing the Bible. Paul had no problem citing the Bible.

In fact, they encourage that kind of thinking. Peter says in 1 Peter 3.15, speaking of the Christian apologetics, they were always to be ready to make a defense to those who ask about the hope that's within us. Before that, he says, set apart, or the word is sanctify, the Lord Jesus Christ in your hearts. That is to say that we are to set Him apart as Lord, and we are to then think and speak and argue and reason and defend the faith as Christ would have us do. That means we must cite His authority, cite the authority of His Father, cite the authority of the Holy Spirit who authored the Scripture. So, I think that many evangelical apologists have taken the same view of Ben Shapiro and other rational enlightenment philosophical thinkers, and they have tried to appeal to the facts, just to say that Christianity is consistent with the facts, they trust in the autonomous individual to recognize and kind of interpret rightly the brute facts, they try to appeal to logical consistency in the Christian faith, they try to appeal to beneficial consequences of the Christian faith, appeal to the integrity and the virtue that's promoted, you know, even citing sometimes the fact that this Christianity has been very meaningful to them, given a personal testimony.

Listen, all those things are true. Christianity is the one and only worldview that does deal honestly with all the facts, is internally logically consistent, it provides beneficial consequences for the good of mankind, it promotes the highest degree of virtue and integrity. It's the only worldview that transforms individuals and making them Christ-like, which puts them on a not a destructive but a productive and fruitful trajectory. But that is not how we make our defense for the Christian faith. We make our defense by answering the fool according to his folly, or answering the fool according to what his folly deserves, lest he be wise in our own eyes. Our apologetic task is to silence the foolishness of the unbeliever.

That's how we make our defense. So we have to go deeper than just those things that I think many Christian apologists, that's then their apologetic approach, is to stay on that level, talk about facts and consistency, benefits and virtues and things like that, but they need to go deeper, they need to go down to the level of metaphysics and epistemology and ethics and start to demonstrate the irrationality of every non-Christian worldview, and they need to use scripture to do that. Just a quick follow-up to that. Is there a reason why these men are so popular and maybe why Christian preachers and apologists don't get the same sort of platform as these guys do? It's because people like Shapiro and Peterson, there's no demand on someone, how they live morally, listening to them.

There's no call to surrender to Christ. It's more human reasoning mixed in with some things that are maybe partially agreeable with a Christian worldview on objective truth and so forth. Is that part of it as well, do you think?

Absolutely. I believe that 100%. Sometimes we think that, well, maybe the reason people are glamming on to these heroes of social conservatism and pushing back against the political and philosophical left, the reason they're so popular is because there are no other heroes. There are no other heroic voices and intelligent Christians. That is just not true.

There are those. It's just that Christians are going to be very, very quickly put out of the public conversation, put out of the public square, because they are going to stand fast, if they're faithful and uncompromising, they're going to stand fast to a biblical morality. The standard of scripture, the law of God condemns every single one of us as human beings, and so if a person is not humble and not driven by the fear of the Lord, they're going to react. They are morally opposed to that.

They are morally in enmity with God. And so when you speak about those things, you're very quickly silenced. So Jordan Peterson, he's a good example of why he can still have a place at the table and still is invited onto the talk shows and things like that, because even his opposition to the Canadian Bill C-16, where they wanted to silence his viewpoint by demanding that he use the offensive gender pronouns, right? So if a transgendered person said, I'm no longer the man I was born, I am the woman that's crying out to emerge, and I want you to use she, her, and hers with me.

I want you to use that. Jordan Peterson said, listen, before that became a bill, I had no problem doing that. I don't have a problem with that with transgenderism and homosexuality. It's when it becomes law that I see the state trying to tell me, trying to restrict and regulate my speech and my conscience, and that is a sign of totalitarianism. Now I happen to agree that's a sign of totalitarianism. I just want to take that protest deeper.

I want to take that protest down to the level of the human heart and human accountability before the law of God. Jordan Peterson doesn't have any accountability to the law of God. He believes in the autonomy of the human individual, the autonomy of Jordan Peterson. And so he determines what he's going to accept as moral and acceptable and what he's going to reject. He just happens to draw the line at the state imposing that. But the question I would have to ask of Jordan Peterson is, on what basis?

That's arbitrary for you to draw the line there. Travis Allen with us today on the Christian Real View, the senior pastor at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado, talking about truths without the truth of Christ, how Christians should view thought leaders like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others like them. I'd like to play another soundbite, this time by Jordan Peterson, where he talks about objective truths, where fundamental truths come from, and then I'll follow up with a question. OK, we're going to play that soundbite after the first break of the day here on the Christian Real View radio program.

We're so glad you joined us for this program. We talk about truths without the truth. What to make of people who use some semblance of a Christian Real View to mix it with human reasoning. How should we approach them when they seemingly push back against some of the same things Christians do? We have much more coming up today with Pastor Travis Allen from Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. So you want to stay tuned.

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You can support us through sending a gift through us through the mail or online or just by calling our office at 1-888-646-2233. Today we're talking about Truths Without the Truth or continued discussion with Travis Allen, the senior pastor at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Let's get back to the second segment of the interview with Travis. I'd like to play another sound bite, this time by Jordan Peterson, where he talks about objective truths, where fundamental truths come from, and then I'll follow up with a question. We do need some fundamental truths.

That's just the position that I've been cornered into. You can't have the enlightenment without the mythos underneath it. Exactly. So this is where you and Sam disagree, right? Where I disagree with people like Steven Pinker. I'm an enlightenment guy, but the thing is that when I look backwards in time, you know, what people like Harrison Pinker attribute to the enlightenment, I see as the enlightenment being the latest flowering of a process that was indescribably older than that.

This is exactly right. And in the historical sense, certainly grounded in the religious traditions, and then from my perspective, grounded in something that's biological, that's far deeper than that, like our true proclivity towards admiration for competence and reciprocity. And I do think that has to be socialized back to your point. Okay, so Jordan Peterson is saying there that there are fundamental truths in the world, objective truths, and Christians would say amen to that. But then he goes to saying, well, those fundamental truths are based on religious traditions, and then said there's something even deeper than that, just what you're made up of biologically. So you can see how there's this almost like a stealing from the biblical worldview saying there's objective truth, but it's all according to Jordan Peterson's own worldview as to how these came to be. Maybe you could comment on that, Travis, and then respond to the person who's listening today by saying, well, yeah, you're right. He says some things that aren't right, but you have to eat the meat and spit out the bones. Or these kinds of people, at least they're not taking people over towards the cultural Marxism worldview.

They're leading people, they're moving people toward the gospel. How would you respond to that? Here's the thing. We're going to find some agreement with Jordan Peterson, with Ben Shapiro, with Rush Limbaugh, with others. I mean, there's one thinker who I kind of enjoy some of the way she writes. Her name is Camille Paglia. She is a liberal. She is a feminist.

She describes herself as a transsexual and a lesbian. She promotes and believes in, which is very hard for me to understand, but I guess it's a consistency of her feminism that she believes in pornography and prostitution. She advocates for it. She's a brilliant thinker. She's a very articulate, witty writer. She's incisive in her critiques of her own party of feminism itself and what she sees as a feminism going to seat. She sees a bloated bureaucracy at the university level and at the government level that she critiques. So she sees the need for these kind of critiques.

Shapiro, Peterson see the need for these critiques, and they want to go deeper and find some type of an objective reality that unifies the world and holds it accountable. I agree with those kinds of things, but the basis of our agreement is the common ground that we share as creatures before a holy God. They have inscribed in their hearts, just like you and I do, just like every listener, they have inscribed in their hearts the law of God. It's written on their hearts, Romans 2.14.

They have a conscience that bears witness with that law, alternately either excusing them or accusing them. And that conscience is what God is going to use to judge the thoughts, the intentions, the motives of every single human heart on the day of Christ. For those who have further revelation, like a Ben Shapiro who has the Old Testament but rejects Jesus Christ, which, by the way, means that he does not worship the same God that we do, even though he has the same Bible. He denies the Trinity. He denies the deity of Jesus Christ. So he does not believe in the same God that we do.

Anybody who opposes the Son opposes God the Father as well. He also has a law, not just written on his heart, but also reads the Old Testament. So God's going to judge him not just according to the law that's written on his heart, but also according to the Scripture that he has. For many people raised in Western Europe, in America, we have both the Old and New Testaments.

We've been raised in church, raised in Sunday school. There's a whole lot of accountability that we have. And so we're going to find in some of these thinkers their sense of a morality, of an objectivity, the need for a transcendent, absolute, unchanging standard of law. We're going to find agreement. And the reason that they talk about those things is because they sense the need for it. They see that philosophically it's inconsistent to say that all morality is relative or socially constructed or whatever.

They just cannot hold those positions. And so that's why they're going to come there. Travis Allen again with us today in the Christian Real View. So Travis, in your last answer, you brought up a good segue to the soundbite I'd like to play next, which is our final one. And I've been kind of waiting to play this one because John MacArthur, the well-known pastor from California, was recently an interview guest on Ben Shapiro's television program. And so you had Shapiro and MacArthur face to face in this interview.

I'd like to play about a five minute soundbite from that particular interview, because I think this will bring up a really good contrast to what we've been hearing between Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro. Now, all of a sudden, we bring John MacArthur into the conversation with a very, very strong biblical worldview. When I read the New Testament myself, and I obviously am not a believer in the divinity of Jesus, but when I see what Jesus actually has to say about the Old Testament, it seems to me very similar to the stuff that Zachariah is saying or that Jeremiah is saying. Jeremiah says that the sacrifices themselves are basically of no use unless there's actual meaning behind the sacrifices.

God wasn't there because he likes the barbecue. It actually has to have some meaning. And when Jesus comes along and he says, you're focusing in on all the details of the Sabbath without actually recognizing the rationale for the Sabbath. And then he exaggerates it beyond the point.

It's interesting. Without loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Right, exactly. And then he, even to make a point, exaggerates it beyond the scope of what Jewish law would permit. So, for example, when he says you're going to leave a guy to die in a ditch on the Sabbath, that's against Jewish law.

You can't do that. You have to violate the Sabbath in order to save a life. This is like basic black letter Jewish law.

But he's making a point, which is you guys are ignoring what's important in order to focus in on the mundane aspect of practice. Like that is that's not unique to Jesus. In other words, there's there's a long prophetic tradition of people saying exactly that.

And in the modern Jewish world, it's called Musser. It's basically just telling people what they should understand about the values beyond the beyond the black letter law. And this is why I think it's fascinating to me when I talk with people who are real biblical scholars from the Christian side that a lot of the areas where Christian scholars think that Christianity has departed dramatically from Judaism.

I think are not really dramatic departures. They seem to be reflections of Judaism from a slightly different angle. Even so far as a lot of the stuff in the Sermon on the Mount about, you know, love when when it says that you're supposed to love that brother as thyself.

And you're supposed to and you're supposed to treat your brother as you would wish to be treated in all of this. That's that's present in the Old Testament, too. No, I think what Jesus did in the Sermon on the Mount was elevate the teaching of the rabbis.

Elevate it. He went above them. He said, well, you've been told you shouldn't commit adultery.

I'm telling you, if you look at a woman of lust after her, you've committed adultery in your heart. He got to the heart of the law that they were content with the practical application of the law. He was not content with that. So I would say that Jesus was the purest Jew that ever lived because he understood the the the elevation of the law to the heart and the soul. It would be it would be a monstrous responsibility for some committee to have invented Jesus. You know, when you hear even the people in his time saying never a man spoke like this man.

He is a person that doesn't seem to have been a product of human invention. And you could say, well, Jesus is a good teacher, but good teachers don't claim to be God. They don't say I and God are one.

They don't say I created the universe. That's not a good teacher. That's somebody who's crazy as a lunatic or somebody who's trying to pull off a huge deception. So you cannot come to Jesus and just patronize him as a noble, good Jewish teacher because he crossed a line. He crossed a severe line. And the Jews saw that either he's the Messiah or he is a blasphemer and he needs to be put to death.

And those are really the choices you have. So when you asked me to show the variation between Judaism and Christianity, morally, no, there's none. In terms of God, we don't have the same God as Muslims. Allah is not the same God as Jehovah. We don't have the same gods as any other false religion, but we have the same God as Jews and Christians. He is the one true creator God, the one true living God.

He has a seity. That is, he is eternal by his own nature. He is uncreated, the uncreated one. We believe he is more than one person in one God. That's why Genesis says, let us make man in our own image. And relationship comes from a God who has relationship within himself. But the distinction between Christianity and Judaism… Okay, there's the big tease.

What is the distinction between Christianity and Judaism? We have to take a break. We'll come back. John MacArthur answered that question right after the second break of the day in the Christian Real View. And what a fascinating conversation that was to watch between Ben Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew, and John MacArthur, a born-again biblical Christian. We have it linked, by the way, that video, on our website, thechristianrealview.org. Stay tuned. We have much more coming up today, full segments, as we talk about truths without the truth.

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We want to get straight back to the interview today with Travis Allen where we're playing a sound bite where John MacArthur was on Ben Shapiro's television program, which is on YouTube actually. We have it linked on our website thechristianworldview.org and he was just talking about the difference between Christianity and Judaism. We don't have the same God as Muslims. Allah is not the same God as Jehovah.

We don't have the same gods as any other false religion, but we have the same God as Jews and Christians. He is the one true creator God, the one true living God. He has a deity. That is, He is eternal by His own nature. He is uncreated, the uncreated one. We believe He is more than one person in one God. That's why Genesis says, let us make man in our own image and relationship comes from a God who has relationship within Himself. But the distinction between Christianity and Judaism is what we do with Jesus Christ.

The writer of Hebrews says, if a sacrifice had been enough to atone for sin, they would have stopped making them. But they never stopped. Morning and evening, morning and evening, morning and evening, morning and evening. You know, basically a priest was a butcher. He had blood up to his waist. I mean, he was a butcher. He had blood up to his waist. And the frustration of it, even on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, all the bloodletting.

And year after year after year after year, this goes on, this goes on, this goes on. You have this most amazing thing. You come to the death of Jesus Christ, and at the death of Christ, the veil in the temple is rent from top to bottom. The Holy of Holies is thrown open. Wow, that's a statement from God, because it couldn't have been ripped by men from the top down, but the way to God is open. There's no more barriers, because a suitable sacrifice has been found. This is the Lamb of God. And amazingly, soon after that, the whole sacrificial system ends, because that's the final sacrifice. And God validates that sacrifice by raising Him from the dead. The resurrection is a provable historical fact.

So I think that's the issue. It's what do you do with Jesus? Okay, that was John MacArthur speaking directly to Ben Shapiro. And what an interesting scenario that was, where you have Ben Shapiro, we've been talking about him today, highly intelligent, Orthodox Jew, taking the positions we've heard about. And then you have John MacArthur coming from a strictly biblical worldview, chapter and verse, all about Christ and so forth. And it's debatable about what he said about, you know, Jews and Christians worship the same God. And MacArthur said that, but he was quick to point out, who God is, that he's a Trinitarian God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But beyond that, what can we learn from that particular soundbite of John MacArthur talking to Ben Shapiro, that they share, I'm sure, many common views when it comes to conservatism and values and objective truths and so forth, but worlds apart on who God is, how we as sinful men and women can be made right with the Holy God through who Christ is and what he did in the cross.

How would you analyze that particular exchange that took place? I think that it would serve every Christian well to watch that interview and see how John MacArthur is so kind and gracious and gentle with Ben Shapiro and yet at the same time uncompromising and unapologetic, speaking directly to a man that he knows, who as the host of this show, of this interview, that he knows is a Jew who rejects Jesus Christ, and yet he leans into that. He's bold, he speaks of a humble boldness, but he speaks of an intentionality, not just to, obviously he's not speaking for the sake of soundbites or throwing red meat to an audience. He is speaking words of truth that cut right into Ben Shapiro's heart. And Ben Shapiro, just as Paul says in Romans 1, Ben Shapiro, like every other unbeliever, is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. In this case, he's suppressing the truth about what the Old Testament teaches about Jesus Christ. In Isaiah 53, John MacArthur, I know in a different segment of that interview, he points back to Isaiah 53.

John preached a whole series on Isaiah 53 that's absolutely phenomenal and wrote a book called Gospel According to God that was recently released. That is must reading for every Christian on how to understand this fantastic chapter of the Old Testament that only one person, Jesus Christ, fulfilled, Jesus wounded for our transgression, crushed for our iniquities. These are Jews speaking here. This is the record of Jews looking back to, they thought that Christ was despised, rejected by men, man of sorrows, but he is now, they understand that he is the one who bore their griefs, carried their sorrows. They esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted, and so they cast him away as a blasphemer, and that's what Ben Shapiro, ultimately, he would side with the Jews and crucify Christ. And John is saying no, he was wounded for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, it was the will of the Lord to crush him.

God is the one who put Jesus Christ to grief. And he spoke with excellent clarity and boldness in that interview to Ben Shapiro. I think it's a model of how to evangelize not just Jews, but anybody, and speak clearly about the truths that divide us. Well, we have that interview with Ben Shapiro and John MacArthur linked on our website, thechristianworldview.org, for listeners who like to watch it.

It's about an hour long, very, very good. Just in summary today, how should Christians be viewing, as we've heard from Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and then the soundbite with John MacArthur, how should Christians be viewing Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, and yet at the same time, what's your encouragement to Christians to be confident in engaging the non-believing world with a very overtly and bold biblical worldview, not being afraid, as one popular pastor said, don't use the Bible says in your arguments, because the world doesn't believe the Bible. What's your final word of encouragement today? You asked first about how should we view people like Jordan Peterson and Dennis Prager and even Rush Limbaugh, or different popular people who provide social commentary and critique and pushback. They're not clearly unapologetically committed by conviction Christians. I think that we need to, like everybody, take the most leftist of the left, the one who is most shrill and antagonistic and persecuting. We need to love them all. We need to love them all and hope for their salvation and want to see them, just like us, come to an end of themselves, to see themselves as sinners before an absolutely thrice holy God, to see that God regenerates them to saving faith, that they would repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ, as God has been gracious to do for us, and that we hope for their salvation and pray for their salvation. For those who are in positions of political authority, like it says in 1 Timothy 2, we need to pray for their salvation, pray for their good.

I think that's the approach we need to have to all these figures. But as far as lining up with them as allies, I think the more we do that, the more we fill our heads with their teaching and their rhetoric, the more we're going to become like them. We need to focus our minds and our attention on Scripture, on Jesus Christ, on the local church, on ministering and serving there and reaching out and evangelizing and discipling, and reaching out to evangelize, discipling the Christian members among us. So I think that our posture toward the unbelieving world, no matter what side of the philosophical, moral, political aisle they fall, I think we need to have an evangelistic approach toward all of them, that we love those people and we love them well. It starts with us knowing what we believe. We have to go down to our own worldview and make sure we understand it very clearly. We need to understand our own presuppositions. In Christian apologetics, we need to make sure that we not only identify, but distinguish and expose our presuppositions as we talk with unbelievers, and then help them to identify and understand theirs. So not only do we need to know what we believe, we need to know and understand the unbelieving mind. We need to understand their presuppositions. To think that the common ground we share is as autonomous individuals, that is destructive, that is totally destructive to evangelism.

We are not autonomous individuals. Now, we are responsible and accountable individuals before a holy God, and that is common ground that we share as creatures standing before the scrutiny of a holy God. So I think then, as we not only know what we believe and understand our worldview, our biblical view of metaphysics and epistemology and ethics, we need to help them understand theirs, because many have not been very reflective at that point.

Even these popular figures haven't been as reflective as we would hope they'd be. Then we want to proclaim the gospel to them unapologetically, just as we heard John McCarthy do in that clip. And then we're going to engage, because it's going to come up, we're going to engage in that apologetic discussion. So as we engage in apologetics with them, we really want to help do an internal critique of that unbeliever's worldview to show its contradictions internally. We want to help them to understand that a lot of what they believe is based on arbitrary presuppositions, that is just mere whim or opinion, that is not at all consistent. You can't just take the evolutionary worldview, which is so easy to demolish. You cannot explain anything in the human experience. You can't even explain rational conversation. You can't explain logic. You can't explain mathematics and numbers and the existence of anything immaterial, immaterial realities. You can't explain that by a material, empirical, evolutionary worldview.

It just does not measure up. Demonstrate that for the unbeliever. Help them to shake their foundations and take them out from underneath them, and then proclaim the gospel to them so they have somewhere to land.

Someone said once, and it stuck with me, that the biblical worldview has the most basis in reality and is the strongest worldview to defend of all worldviews in the world, because it's based on the truth of the Word of God, and that never changes. More coming up on the Christian worldview right after this. The Christian worldview is a listener-supported ministry. You can help us in our mission to impact hearts and minds by making a donation of any amount or becoming a monthly partner.

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That's 1-888-646-2233. All right. Final segment of the day here on the Christian Worldview radio program. I'm David Wheaton, the host. Our website is thechristianworldview.org. If you've missed any of the interview today with Travis Allen, I would highly encourage you to go there to listen to it. You can also listen to Short Takes, which we put out every Monday, usually one per day, or actually put them all up on the website on Monday, which gives the kind of bite-sized audio highlights, clip highlights, of the most, you know, most compelling aspects, I could say, of the interview. So we'll have a few of those up there.

We've had some really good feedback on those. Also, just a final reminder, with Christmas coming up, Monday, December 17th, that's just two days from now when the program is airing here live. So Monday, December 17th is the last day for you to be able to order resources from our online store at thechristianworldview.org and for us to be able to get them to you before Christmas.

So just a reminder, if you're planning to do that, try to do it by Monday, December 17th, so we can get them to you on time. All right. We have a few minutes left with Travis Allen, the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Let's get back to the remaining moments with Travis. David, let me just interject one more thing. Just pastorally, I think as a shepherd and I think all of us as Christians, we do think at some level, after the mind of the Good Shepherd, Jesus Christ, I'm preaching through Luke's Gospel Sunday after Sunday and just rejoicing in the truths about Christ, but so often, he would look across the crowds and his heart was filled with compassion for them because they were like sheep scattered without a shepherd. And so he exhausted himself teaching these people and healing every disease and sickness. He cared about their material existence and he cared about their immaterial existence as well and their immaterial future.

I think that that's probably my deepest concern, if I could summarize, about following these cultural commentators and critics and everything, that we can find them scoring some points against some opponents that we might share. But at the end of the day, following those philosophies does not lead to redemption. It doesn't lead to reconciliation with God.

It does not answer that most fundamental question, that most perplexing question of human existence. How can I, a guilty and condemned sinner, be right and reconciled with a holy, absolutely holy God? How can God justify me, the ungodly? How can God justify me and still maintain his holiness, still be counted just? That points us right back to Jesus Christ. Because of Christ, God can be just, punishing every single sin that we ever committed in him, and he can be merciful, being the justifier of the one who puts faith in Jesus Christ, because again, by faith, it's not us, it's not of our own works.

It's what he did and we are covered in his righteousness. That is the only saving message that the world has. That's the only saving message and we carry that message. So we have to speak that message to this unbelieving world.

I think about that testimony that you read at the very beginning. How profoundly sad a situation so many people are in. They're suffering the effects of the curse in their conscience, in their body, in their relationships.

They expect nothing but a future of more decomposition for their body, eventually ending in death, and that's all going to culminate with them standing before the judgment seat of God to give an account of their life. I want to see those people saved and this is the only message we have for them. Yeah, to think that these guys like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others have such big platforms and they have such great intellects and so forth and yet the most regular Christian who understands the gospel and who strives to understand scripture has the full truth and not just a life-changing truth but an eternity-changing truth through when one repents of their sin and puts their faith in Christ. And as you mentioned, I love that passage that God is just and he is the justifier of those who come to him in repentant faith. So thank you, Travis, for coming on the Christian worldview today. It's just been a very illuminating and enjoyable conversation. We're thankful that God has called you into the pastorate and we wish all of God's best to you and your family and Grace Church, the church you pastor as well. Well, thank you, David, for having me on the program. It's always a joy to whenever I can have a conversation with you and also for the benefit that you're bringing every single week to so many listeners. I just appreciate that so much, David, and appreciate your friendship and what you stand for and what you do. Well, thank you, Travis.

Oh, to God be the glory. It was a very interesting interview. Hope you enjoyed it. Really appreciate Pastor Travis Allen. Very interesting background. I don't know if I mentioned it to today's program, but he was a former Navy SEAL, served our country in that manner. Also was the former managing director of Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

So he's had a very God-ordained background and God's brought him to a very convicted faith walk with him. Just a few summary thoughts today. I think, listening to these two-part series now, I think we can look at someone like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others like them who go deeper and push back against the Marxist worldview that really seeks to destroy Christianity. That's what's at stake here. That's what's going on in this country.

That's where the battle is. The Marxist worldview has taken over all the major institutions in this country, socialism, Marxism, and the final frontier for them to overthrow the Christians, Christianity, biblical Christianity, evangelicalism, that area. So we can be thankful for Jordan Peterson and Shapiro that pushing back against that worldview that seeks to rid this country of Christianity.

They think it's an oppressor religion. I've watched several videos now of Peterson and Shapiro. They make lots of excellent points refuting Marxism and secularism and relativism and feminism and the LGBTQ authoritarian movement. That's easy to not just make you kind of tolerate them, but affirm that movement. These guys are smart debaters and you can learn things from them.

But, the big but, they shouldn't be our main diet. And we really shouldn't be putting any hope in them that they're going to exact much change on behalf of Christ because they are really mixing flawed human reason. You'll hear when they talk, they do give some biblical truth that they borrowed from Scripture and objective truth and so forth.

But they mix it with psychology and evolution and in man-derived science and just anecdotes. They're not directing people toward the truth about Jesus Christ. In a way, you could say they're directing people towards a works righteousness, a religion, not toward the grace, the salvation that comes through God's mercy and grace toward us who don't deserve it. We need to pray that they would repent and believe in the gospel. Otherwise, they like everyone else or anyone else who rejects God's offer of reconciliation through faith in his son will be judged for their sin and sent to hell. Both liberals and conservatives who reject Christ go to hell.

We wouldn't need to pray for their salvation. Because we do live in a changing and challenging world. There's a lot of colliding worldviews. But there is one worldview and one person we can put our faith in and trust in. And that's Jesus Christ. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Until next time, think biblically and live accordingly. This is a radio program that is furnished by the Overcomer Foundation and is supported by listeners and sponsors. Request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount. Go to theChristianworldview.org or call us toll free at 1-888-646-2233 or write to us at Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. That's Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Thank you for listening to The Christian Worldview. Think biblically and live accordingly.