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Truths without the Truth—How Christians Should View Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Et Al? Part 2 of 2

The Christian Worldview / David Wheaton
The Truth Network Radio
January 3, 2020 7:00 pm

Truths without the Truth—How Christians Should View Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, Et Al? Part 2 of 2

The Christian Worldview / David Wheaton

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January 3, 2020 7:00 pm

Canadian Jordan Peterson is a psychology professor, author of the wildly popular book, The 12 Rules for Life, and speaks to large audiences all over the world. Ben Shapiro is also a well-known author and speaker and has been called “the voice of the conservative Millennial movement.”

Both men are known for strongly pushing back against the Cultural Marxist worldview that dominates higher education, media, culture, and the political Left and which seeks to overthrow those they perceive as oppressors (Christians, males, whites), creating “social justice” for the oppressed (women, homosexuals, minority ethnicities and religions, homosexuals).

With Marxism being a God-rejecting, humanistic worldview, many Christians find common cause with Peterson and Shapiro, who are standing up to the Left at a deeper philosophical and moral level than the typical Left v. Right battles of conservative political commentators such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

But is there something Christians should be wary of in being influenced by the worldview of Peterson and Shapiro, who mix human wisdom with some truths borrowed from Scripture, yet without The Truth of Christ?

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Today's program was previously erred. While the content is relevant some of the announcements may be dated for current ministry news and offers go to the Christian worldview.org without the help person should view Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and those like them Travis Allen Pastor of Grace Church thing really rattled the host of the program and our website is the Christian worldview.psychology professor is the author of a wildly popular book, the 12 rules for life and you speak to large audiences all over the world. Ben Shapiro is also a well-known author and speaker and has been called to quote the voice of the conservative millennial movement. Both men are known for strongly pushing back against the cultural Marxist worldview that dominates higher education.

The media are culture and the political left which seeks to overthrow those they perceive as the oppressors in our society who are the good Christians the men the males the whites and they want to create social justice for the those they deem open crest were women and homosexuals and minority ethnicities and religions and their strident about this. Now, with Marxism being a God rejecting humanistic worldview. Many Christians find common cause with Peterson and Shapiro were standing up to the left at a more deeper philosophical and moral level than the typical left versus right battles of conservative political commentators that you hear on TV or radio, such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity but is there something that Christian should be wary of and being influenced by the worldview of Peterson and Shapiro who mix human wisdom with some truth borrow from Scripture, yet without the full truth of Jesus Christ is a mention Travis Allen the pastor Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. He joins us today for the second part of our conversation on truth without the truth is that to the first segment of that interview Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro who have a semblance of a worldview that Christians can agree with on some things, but miss the mark hugely when it comes to a sound biblical worldview that focuses in on who Christ is and what he did on the cross for us in the Bible is God's final revelation and fully sufficient revelation to us. Is there something lacking Travis in the church today that that paves the way for these men, being popular, and in society and within with Christians me, what keeps Christian apologists who maybe are just as smart in and you know all the same things and sale these things same things, except for the fact that there more biblical nature. What keeps them from being as popular on another great question David wanted to make a corrective to evangelicals. I think that there's a couple of answers that one to get evangelicals in for a long time as really sorted, if not fully embraced the help welcome prosperity gospel that God wants you feeling good specially with you might say may go see her churches. It's all about making people feel comfortable and at ease and giving them motivational speeches and pep talks every single Sunday. I think having many evangelical Christians.

True Christians are just fed up with so when Jordan Peterson stepped in and says listen. Life is suffering, you opened with that very heartfelt story of someone who felt himself saved by Jordan Peterson's knowledge and the suffering in the world, as he himself is struggling to not commit suicide to get himself out of bed in the morning so obviously a happy copy Christianity has no answers for a person like that and sadly because of the breakdown of the family.

The destruction of the family. The promotion of rampant kinds of sexual morality people's lives and relationships are absolute destroyed. They are suffering and they want to come to church to understand the meaning of their suffering. What suffering means how they have a have a live through it, what the significance of it is does God have anything to say about the turns on his word has everything to say about that. So I think that many latch onto thinkers like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, and others who are neither repeating the same truths that life is not about just filled with prosperity this world and each of the individual is under a curse were under the curse, and were heading toward death. That is because the result of the fall and sin in the world.

We all understand that.

Instinctively we live through every single day that struggle and so that's part of the popular appeal of people like this is because are not hearing this in their churches there hearing exactly the opposite.

They're hearing some pastor who counts himself more of a therapist or a motivational speaker or a life coach, whose, cheering them on. Without actually dealing with these deeper realities. I think it's part of the set up for an embrace by many evangelicals. I think the other side of it, though, is that evangelicals for a long time have been taught to be ashamed of the Bible you heard Ben Shapiro in that soundbite talked about con trying to avoid the trap of having to cite the Bible, Ben Shapiro, himself an Orthodox Jew who believes in the authority of the Old Testament Scriptures says that he himself and his public debates and discourses tries very hard not to cite the Bible as authority that is not what Christ taught that Christ had no problem deciding the Bible had no problem citing the Bible. In fact, they encourage that kind of thinking Peter says in first Peter 315. Speaking of Christian apologetics. They were always to be ready to make a defense to those who ask about the hope that within us. Before that, he says, set apart for the word sanctify the Lord Jesus Christ in your hearts, that is to say that we are to set him apart in the Lord and we are to then think and speak and argue and reason and defend the faith as Christ would have us do. That means we must cite is already cite the authority of his father cite the authority of the Holy Spirit who authored the Scripture so I think that many evangelical apologists have taken the same view of Ben Shapiro and other rational Enlightenment philosophical thinkers and they have tried to appeal to the facts just to say that Christianity is consistent with the facts they trust in the autonomous individual to recognize and kind of interpret rightly the brute facts they try to appeal to logical consistency in the Christian faith.

They try to appeal to beneficial consequences of the Christian faith appeal to the integrity and the virtue that you promoted me know, even citing sometimes the fact that this Christianity has been very meaningful to them. Given a personal testimony listened all those things are true Christianity is the one and only worldview that does deal honestly with all the faxes internally logically consistent. It provides beneficial consequences for the good of mankind promotes the highest degree of virtue and integrity. It's the only worldview that transforms individuals in making them Christlike which put them on nondestructive butter. A productive and fruitful trajectory that is not how we make our defense for the Christian faith. We make our defense by answering the fool according to his folly or answering the full according to what is folly deserves, lest he be wise in our own eyes are apologetic task is to silence the foolishness of the unbeliever. That's how we make our defense so we have to go deeper than just of those things that the leading many Christian apologists that spend their apologetic approach is to stay on that level.

Talk about facts and then consistency. These benefits and virtues and things like that but they need to go deeper. They need to go down to the level of metaphysics and epistemology and ethics. And start to demonstrate the irrationality of every non-Christian worldview is a need to use Scripture to do that. Just a quick follow-up to that.

Is there a reason why these men are so popular and maybe like Christian preachers and apologists don't get the same sort of platform as as as these guys do is because people like Shapiro and Peterson. There is no demand on someone how they live morally listening to them. There is no call to to surrender to Christ. It's more human reasoning mixed in with some things that are maybe partially agreeable with a Christian worldview on your objective truth and so forth. That is, is that part of it as well. Do you think absolutely I believe that 100%. Sometimes we we think that well maybe there may be the reason people are blaming on to these heroes of social conservativism and pushing back against the political and philosophical left. The reason there are so popular is because there are no other heroes. There are no other other heroic voices in an intelligent Christian that is just not true.

There are those it's just that Christians are going to be very, very quickly put out of the public conversation put the public square. Because they are going to stand fast. If there faithful and uncompromisingly and stand fast to a biblical morality, the standard of Scripture. The law of God condemns every single one of us is as human beings. And so if if a person is not humble and not driven by the fear the Lord there and react are morally opposed to that they are morally and enmity with God. And so when you speak about those things very quickly silenced. So Jordan Peterson is a good example of why he can still have a place at the table and still is, is invited onto the talk shows and things like that because even his opposition to the Canadian bill C16 where they wanted to silence they wanted. They wanted to silence as you point by demanding that he use gender pronouns right so so if if a transgendered person said I'm no longer the man I was born, I am the woman that's crying out to emerge and I want you to use. She her and hers with me.

I want to use that Jordan Peterson said listen before that became a bill I have no problem doing that have a problem with that which and transgender is him and homosexuality. It's when it becomes law that I see the state trying to tell me trying to restrict and regulate my speech and my conscience and that is a sign of totalitarianism. Now I happen to agree that the sign of totalitarianism. I just want to take that protest deeper want to take that protest down to the level of the human heart and human accountability for the law of God. Jordan Peterson doesn't have any accountability to love God.

He believes in the autonomy of the human individual in the autonomy of Jordan Peterson and so he determines what he's going to accept this is moral and acceptable and what is going to reject a just happens to draw the line at the state imposing that. But the question I would have to have the Jordan Peterson is on what basis that's that arbitrary feet of draw the line there is to sterility the senior pastor at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado talking about truths without the truth of Christ, how Christian should view thought leaders like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others like them that like to play another soundbite, this time by Jordan Peterson where he talks about objective truths were fundamental truths come from, and now follow up with a question okay work, a play that soundbite after the first break of the day here on the Christian worldview radio program are so glad you joined us for this program was to talk about truths without the truth what to make of people who who use some semblance of a Christian worldview and mix it with human reasoning. How should we approach them when they seemingly push back against them. The same things Christians do we have much more coming up today with pastor Travis Allen from Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado.

You want to stay tonight.

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Sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God. Christ that is the mission of the Christian review radio program and you sharp listeners out there. When the left forgot to say that the top of the program today somehow got tied up with the title of the program today to want to make sure you knew that.

Why we do what we do every week here on the program. We appreciate your tuning and also your support of this ministry, as we head toward the end of the year. You cannot support us through sending a gift through us to the mail or online, or just by calling your office at one AAA eight 646-2233. They were talking about truths without the truth or continue discussion with Travis Allen the senior pastor at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado get back to the second segment of the interview Travis like to play another soundbite, this time by Jordan Peterson where he talks about objective truths were fundamental truths come from, and now follow up with a question. We do need some funding without the mythos underneath it exactly right and with winter where I disagree with people like Stephen Payne and Nyman's alignment guide but the thing is is that when I when I looked backwards in time. You know what what what people like Harrison Pinker attribute to the event I see as the Enlightenment being the latest flowering of a process that was indescribably older than that is right and in them in the historical sense certainly grounded in the religious traditions but in and then from my perspective grounded in something that's biological that's far deeper than that. Like like our true proclivity towards admiration for competence and reciprocity and I do think that has to be socialized back to your point okay so Jordan Peterson is saying that there are fundamental truths in the world. Objective truth and Christiansen say Amen to that, then he goes to say what those fundamental truths are based on religious traditions and then said there's something even deeper than that. Just what will what's what you're made up of biologically so you can see how there is there is this almost like a stealing from the biblical worldview singers objective truth, but it's all according to Jordan Peterson's own worldview as to how these came to be. Maybe you could comment on that Travis and then respond to the person who's listening today by saying well yeah you're right.

He says some things that are right but you have to eat the meat and spit out the bones or these kinds of people that at least are not taking people over towards the cultural Marxism worldview there there leading people there moving people toward the gospel. How would you respond to that thing that we find some agreement with Jordan Peterson with Ben Shapiro with Rush Limbaugh with it with others. I mean there is there's one thinker who I kind of enjoy some of the way she writes her name is Camille Paglia.

She is a liberal is a feminist. She described herself as a transactional lesbian. She promotes and believe in witches. Argument understand but I guess it's a consistency of her feminism that she believes in pornography and prostitution. She advocates for she is a brilliant thinker. She's a she's a very articulate, witty writer. She is incisive in her critiques of her own feminism itself and then what she sees as a feminism going to seat she sees a bloated bureaucracy at the university level and at the government level but she she critiques so she sees the need for these kind of critiques Shapiro Peterson see the need for these these critiques and they want to go deeper and find some type of an objective reality that unifies the world and hold it accountable. I agree with those kind of things, but the basis of our agreement is the common ground that we share his creatures before a holy God. They have inscribed in their hearts just like you and I do, just like every listener they have inscribed in their hearts.

The law of God. It's written on their hearts. Romans 214. They have a conscience that bears witness with that law. Alternately, either excusing them or accusing them that conscience is what God is used to judge the thoughts the intentions the motives of every single human heart. On the day of Christ, for those who have further revelation like like I have been Shapiro who has the Old Testament, but rejects Jesus Christ, which by the way, means that he does not worship the same God that we do. Even though he has the same Bible.

He denies the Trinity. He denies the deity of Jesus Christ.

So he does not believe in the same God that we do.

He anybody who opposes the sun opposes God the father as well. He also has a law not just written on his heart but also read the Old Testament so God can judge him not done just according to the law that's written on his heart, but also according to the Scripture.

They had for many people raised in Western Europe and America. We have both the old and new Testaments.

We've been raised in church raisins on the school.

There's a whole lot of accountability that we have been so defined in some of these thinkers that are sense of the morality of an objectivity.

The need for transcendent absolutes, unchanging standard of law, or in a find agreement and the reason that they talk about those things is because they sense the need for it. They see that philosophically inconsistent to say that all morality is relative, or socially constructed or whatever they just cannot hold those positions and so that's why they're going to come there really so Travis you in your last answer you. You brought up a good segue to what I like to the soundbite. I like to play next which is our final one and admin, waiting to play this one because John MacArthur is a well-known pastor from California was recently an interview guest on Ben Shapiro's television programs that you had Shapiro and MacArthur face-to-face.

In this interview I like to play but a five minute soundbite from that particular interview because I think this will bring up a really good contrast to what we've been hearing between Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and Elvis that we bring John MacArthur into the conversation with a very very strong biblical worldview. When everything has for myself and my obvious a nonbeliever in the divinity of Jesus.

When I see what Jesus actually has to say about the Old Testament is very similar to the stuff that Zechariah is saying are the Jeremiah Sandra Jeremiah says that they made sacrifices themselves are basically of no use. Unless there's actual meaning behind the sacrifices. God wasn't there because he likes the barbecue rate actually has to have some meaning when Jesus comes along. He says you're focusing in on all the details of the Sabbath without actually recognizing the rationale for the Sabbath and exaggerated beyond the place is having God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Right exactly and even to make a point exaggerated beyond the scope of what Jewish law would permit. So, for example, he says merely that I die ditch on Sabbath and social I can see that you have to violate the Sabbath in order to save life is like basic black letter Jewish law, but he's making a point which is you guys are ignoring what's important in order to focus in on the mundane aspects of practice like that is that's not unique to Jesus. In other words, there's a little long prophetic tradition of people saying exactly that and in the modern Jewish world. The commissary is basically just telling people what they should understand that the values beyond the beyond black letter law and this is why I think it is fascinating to me when I talk with people who are biblical scholars from the Christian side that a lot of the areas were Christian scholars think that Christianity has departed dramatically from Judaism. I think are not really dramatic departures. They seem to be reflections of Judaism from a slightly different angle. And even so far as a lot of stuff in the sermon on the mount about you love it when when it says that you're supposed to love that brother is myself and and you're supposed to a and you're supposed to treat your brother as you would wish to be treated in all harvest that's that's present in the Old Testament to not having what Jesus did in the sermon on the Mount was elevate the teaching of the rabbis elevated. He went above them. He said well you.

You've been told.

You shouldn't commit adultery. I'm telling you, if you look at a woman to lust after you've committed to delivering your heart she got to the heart of the law that they were content with the practical application of the law he was not content with that. So I would say that Jesus was the purest Jew that ever landed because he understood the data.

The elevation of the law to the heart and the soul that it would be in it would be a monstrous responsibility for some committee to have invented Jesus then you know when you hear the even the people in his time. Say never man spoke like this man that he is a person that doesn't seem to have been a product of human invention and you can say will Jesus is a good teacher but good teachers don't claim to be God. They don't say I and God are one.

They don't say I created the universe that that's not a good teacher. That's somebody who's crazy as a lunatic or somebody who's try to pull off a huge deception so you you you cannot come to Jesus and just patronize him as a noble good Jewish teacher because he crossed the line. He crossed the severe line and the Jews saw that either. He's the Messiah or he is a blasphemer and he needs to be put to death, and those are really the choices you have. So when you asked me to show the variation between Judaism and Christianity morally. Now there's none in terms of God the same.

We don't have the same God as Muslims. All is not the same God as Jehovah. We don't have the same gods as any other false religion but we have the same God is Jews and Christians. He is the one true creator God, the one true living God.

He has a CAD that is he is eternal. By his own nature. He is uncreated, the uncreated one. We believe he is. He is more than one person in one God. That's why Genesis says let us make man in our own image and relationship comes from a God who has relationship within himself, but the distinction between Christianity and Judaism.

Okay there is the big tease.

What is the distinction between Christianity and Judaism. We have to take a break will come back will let John MacArthur answer that question right after the second break of the day in the Christian world. You and I what a fascinating conversation that was to watch between Ben Shapiro, an Orthodox Jew and John MacArthur are born again biblical Christian.

We have a link. By the way that video on our website the Christian world viewed outdoor stage and we have much more coming up today. Methods we talk about truths without the truth, I'm David Weeden listing the Christian world. Be sure to take advantage of two free resources that will keep you informed and sharpen your world.

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We strive to do here in the Christian Realty radio program you want to get straight back to the interview today with Travis Allen were playing a soundbite where John MacArthur is on Ben Shapiro's television program, which is on YouTube actually have a LinkedIn or website the Christian world you.org and he was just talking with the difference between Christianity and Judaism will have the same God as Muslims. All is not the same God as Jehovah. We don't have the same gods as any other false religion but we have the same God is Jews and Christians. He is the one true creator God, the one true living God. He has a CAD that is he is eternal. By his own nature. He is uncreated, the uncreated one. We believe he is.

He is more than one person in one God. That's why Genesis says let us make man in our own image and relationship comes from a God who has relationship within himself, but the distinction between Christianity and Judaism is what we do with Jesus Christ.

The writer of Hebrews says if a sacrifice had been enough to atone for sin.

They would stop making them. They never stopped morning and evening, morning and evening, morning and evening, morning, basically a priest was a butcher for black to his right. There is a butcher had brought up to his waist and the frustration of it, even on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, all the bloodletting and year after year after year after year. This goes on.

This was on the design you have this most amazing thing come to the death of Jesus Christ and at the death of Christ, the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom.

The holy of holies is thrown open. While that's a statement from God as it could've been written by men from the top down.

The way to God is open there's no more barriers because assess suitable sacrifice has been found.

This is the Lamb of God, and amazingly soon after that, the whole sacrificial system ends because that's the final sacrifice and God validates that sacrifice by raising him from the dead, the resurrection is a provable historical fact, I think that the issue, it's what you do with Jesus. Okay, that was John MacArthur speaking directly to Ben Shapiro.

What an interesting scenario that was very have been Shapiro been talking about him today.

Highly intelligent Orthodox Jew taking the positions we heard about and then you John MacArthur coming from a strictly biblical worldview chapter and verse all about Christ, and so forth.

And it's debatable at about what he said about your Jews and Christians worship the same God. MacArthur said that but he was quick to point out cuckoo God is that he's a Trinitarian God father son and Holy Spirit. But beyond that, what can we learn from that particular soundbite of John MacArthur talking to Ben Shapiro that they share. I'm sure many common views when it comes to conservatism and values and objective truth, and so forth. But worlds apart on who God is, how we as sinful men and women can be made right with a holy God through who Christ is and what he did in the crossed how would you analyze that particular exchange that took place. I think that it would serve every Christian well to watch that interview and see how John MacArthur is so kind and gracious and gentle with Ben Shapiro and and yet at the same time uncompromising and on unapologetic speaking directly to a man that he knows who has the host of the show of this interview that he knows is a Jew who rejects Jesus Christ and yet he leans into that is bold and he speaks of a humble boldness, but he speaks of the intentionality not just to obviously he is not speaking for the sake of soundbites are throwing red meat to an audience is speaking words of truth. The cut right into Ben Shapiro's heart and then Shapiro is denied justice. As Paul says in Romans one, Ben Shapiro, like every other unbeliever is suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. In this case he suppressing the truth about what the Old Testament teaches about Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53 John MacArthur. I know in a different segment of that interview. He points back to Isaiah 53 action John preached the whole series on Isaiah 53 this absolutely phenomenal and wrote a book called the gospel according to God that was recently released. That is must reading for every Christian on how to understand this fantastic chapter of the Old Testament that only one person, Jesus Christ fulfilled Jesus wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities is Jews speaking here. This is a record of Jews looking back to they thought that Christ was despised and rejected by men, man of sorrows, but he is now.

They understand that he is the one or their griefs carried our sorrows, they esteemed him stricken Smit my gun afflicted and so they they cast him away as a blasphemer and that's what Ben Shapiro ultimately he would side with the Jews, the crucified Christ John is saying no. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. It was the will of the Lord to crush him. God is the one who put Jesus Christ to grief and he spoke with excellent clarity and boldness and that in that interview to Ben Shapiro the model of how to evangelize not just Jews but but anybody in them and speak clearly about the truth that divide us in securing John MacArthur linked websites.

The Christian world you.org physicians like to watch. It's been hour-long very, very good, just in summary today. How should Christians be viewing. As we've heard from Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, then that Sambo John MacArthur how should Christians be viewing Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and yet the same time.

What's your encouragement to Christians to be confident in engaging the nonbelieving world with a very overtly in bold biblical worldview.

Not being afraid is one popular pastor said don't use the Bible says in in your arguments for the world doesn't believe the Bible. What's your final word of encouragement today about how to review people like Gordon peters out and Dennis Prager and and you know you and Rush Limbaugh are different different popular people who provide social commentary and in critique and pushback if they're not clearly unapologetically committed by conviction Christians. I think that we need to like everybody take the most leftist of the left, the one who is most shrill and antagonistic and persecuting. We need to love them all. We need to love them all and hope for their salvation than that and want to see them just like us come to an end of themselves to see themselves as sinners before on absolutely thrice holy God defeated God regenerates them to to saving faith that they would repent of their sins, their faith in Jesus Christ as God has been gracious to do for us and that we hope for their salvation and pray for their salvation for those who are in positions of political authority. Like says in first Timothy two need to pray for their salvation.

Pray for their for their good and I think that's the approach we need to have two all these figures, but as far as lining up with them is as allies, and I think the more we do that in the more we fill our heads with their teaching and their rhetoric the Morgan become like him. We need to focus our minds, our attention on Scripture on Jesus Christ on the local church ministry and serving there and reaching out and evangelizing, discipling and reaching out to evangelize discipling the Christian members among us so I think that our art are posture toward the door. The unbelieving world. The matter what side of the philosophical, moral, political aisle, they fall II think we need to have an evangelistic approach toward all of them that we love those people we love them well starts with us knowing what we believe we have to go down to our own worldview and make sure we understand it very clearly and understand our own presuppositions in Christian apologetics we need to make sure that we not only identify but distinguish and expose our presuppositions as we talk with unbelievers and then help them to identify and understand. There's so not only doing even though we believe we need to know and understand the unbelieving mind, we need to understand their presuppositions think that the common ground we share is as autonomous individuals that is constructive.

That is totally destructive to evangelism. We are not autonomous individuals that we are responsible and accountable individuals before a holy God. And that is a common ground that we share is as low as creatures standing before the scrutiny of a holy God's I think.

Then as we not only know we believe and understand our worldview are our view of the biblical view of metaphysics and epistemology and ethics.

We need to help them understand there's many have not been very reflective. At that point I even these popular figures haven't been as reflective as we would hope they'd be then then we want to proclaim the gospel to them unapologetically, just as Mayor John MacArthur doing that clip and then we are going to engage because it's going to come up to engage in that in that apologetic discussion as we engage in apologetics with them. You know, we really want to help do an internal critique of that unbelievers worldview to show its its contradictions internally. We want to help them to understand the that there a lot of what they believe is based on arbitrary presuppositions. That is just mere whim or opinion that is not all consistent you can't you can't you just take the evolutionary worldview which is so easy to demolish. You cannot explain anything in the human experience. You can explain rational conversation you can explain the logic you can explain mathematics and numbers and the existence of anything immaterial, immaterial realities.

You can explain that by material empirical evolutionary worldview that just it just does not measure up demonstrate that for the unbeliever.

Help them to initiate their foundations and take them out from underneath them and then proclaim the gospel to them so they have somewhere to land. Someone said once stuck with me that worldview has to most basis in reality is the strongest worldview and of all worldviews in the world because based on the truth of the word of God never changes were coming up on the Christian world you grant this David week here to tell you about my boys then story of love, loss and grace. Ben was a yellow lab and inseparable companion stage in my life when I was single, competing in the professional tennis to. I invite you to enter into the story's tapestry of relationships within my aging parents, the child friend I would finally marry, and ultimately with God caused all things, even the hard things to work together for good. Order the book for your friend who needs to hear about God's grace in the gospel for the one who has gone through a difficult trial or loss just the dog lover in your life signed and personalized copies are only available@myboyfriend.com or by calling 1888 646-2233, one AAA 46 2233 or my boys been.com there is an abundance of resources available in Christian bookstores and online that reality is that many of them even some of the most popular do not lead to a sound and strong pain aim of the Christian world is to identify and offer resources that are biblically faithful and deep in your walk with God in our online store.

We have a wide range of resources for all ages, adult and children's books and DVDs, Bibles and devotionals unique and more so brows are still@thechristianworld.org and find enriching resources for yourself, family, friends, small group church and also ordered by calling our office told me once that relates 646-2233, one AAA 46 2233 or visit the Christian worldview.more of the day here in the Christian world view radio program. I'm David week and the host.

Our website is the Christian world view.org you miss any of the interview today with Travis Allen. I would highly encourage you to go there to listen to it.

You can also listen to short takes which we put out every Monday.

You see, one per day or actually put them all up on the website on Monday which gives the kind of bite-size audio hot highlights clip highlights of the most you must compelling aspects I could say of the interview so have a few of those up there with some really good feedback on those also just a final reminder.

With Christmas coming up Monday, December 17 at just two days from now when the program during her life to Monday, December 17 is the last day for you to be able to order resources from our online store@thechristianrealview.org and for us to be able to get them to you before Christmas. Just a reminder if you plan to do that. Try to do by Monday, December 17 so we can get them to you on time. All right, we have a few minutes left with Travis Allen the senior pastor of Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado. Let's get back to the remaining moments with Travis limit limited one more one more thing just really living as a shepherd and I think all of us as Christians, we do think at some level. After the mind of the good Shepherd Jesus Christ I'm preaching through Luke's gospel and after Sunday and just rejoicing in the truth about Christ, but so often he would look across the crowds and that his heart was filled with compassion for them because they were like sheep scattered without a shepherd. And so he he exhausted himself teaching these people, and healing every disease and sickness and cared about their material existence. Any cared about their immaterial existence as well in their material future. I think that that's probably my deepest concern if I can summarize about following these cultural commentators and critics and everything that we can we can find you know them them scoring some points against our opponents that we might share, but at the end of the day. Following those philosophies does not lead to redemption. It doesn't lead to reconciliation with God. It does not answer that most fundamental question that most perplexing question of human existence. How can I guilty and condemn center be right and reconciled with the holy absolutely holy God. How can God justify me the ungodly. How can God justify me and still maintain his holiness still be counted just that point is right back to Jesus Christ because of Christ. God can be just know punishing every single sin that we ever committed in him and he can be merciful being the justifier of the one who puts faith in Jesus Christ. Because, again, by faith. It's not it's not of our own works. It's what he did and we are covered in his righteousness that is the only saving message that the world has the only saving message, and we carry that message so we have to speak that message to this this unbelieving world.

You know I think about that testimony that you read of the very beginning help her family had this situation so many people are in their suffering the effects of the curse in their conscience and their in their body and their relationships expect nothing but the future of the more decomposition for their body eventually and ending in death and that's all gonna culminate with them standing before the judgment seat of God, to give an account of their life. I want to see those people safe and this is the only message we have for them to think that these guys like Jordan Peterson, Ben Sapir and others have such big platforms and they have such great intellects and so forth.

And yet the most regular Christian who understands the gospel and who strives to understand Scripture has the full truth and not just a life-changing truth, but in eternity changing truth through when one repents of their sin and put their faith in Christ and as you mentioned a love that passes that God is just, and he is the justifier of those who come to him and repent in faith still. Thank you Travis for coming on the Christian worldview.

Today it's it's been a very illuminating and enjoyable conversation were thankful that God is called you into the pastorate and that we wish all of God's baths to you and your family and Grace Church the church you you pastor as well. Thank you David for having me on the program. It's always a joy to whenever I can have a conversation with you and also for the benefit that you're bringing everything away so many listeners just appreciate that so much David and appreciate your friendship and what you stand for and what you do. Thank you Travis, to God be the glory was very interesting interview. Hope you enjoyed it. Really appreciate pastor Travis Allen very interesting background. If I mention it in today's program but he was a former Navy seal served our country in that manner also was a former managing director of grace to you on the radio ministry of John MacArthur. So I said a very God ordained background, and he's God brought him to a very complete convicted faith walk with him. Few just a few summary thoughts today. I think as in listening to these two two-part series. Now I think we can we can look at someone like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and others like them who go deeper and push back against that the Marxist worldview that really seeks to destroy Christianity that that's what's at stake here. That's what's going on in this country. That's where the battle is know the Marxist worldview is taken over all the major institutions in this country.

Socialism, Marxism and that of the final frontier for them to overthrow the the Christians Christianity biblical Christianity evangelicalism that area so we can be thankful for Jordan Peterson and Sapir that pushing back against that worldview that seeks to to rid this country of Christianity if they think it's an oppressor religion. I have watched several videos now of Peterson Sapir. They make lots of excellent points, refuting Marxism and secularism and relativism in feminism and the LGBT Q authoritarian movement that's easily not just make you, tolerate them and affirm that movement because her smart debaters and you can learn things from them but the big, but they shouldn't be our main diet and we really shouldn't be putting any hope in them that they're going to exact much change on behalf of Christ because they are really mixing flawed human reason. You'll hear when they talk they they do give some biblical truth that they borrowed from Scripture and objective truth, and so forth.

But they mix it with psychology and evolution in in man man derive science and just anecdotes are not not directing people toward the truth about Jesus Christ and in a way you could say there directing people towards a works righteousness, religion, not toward the grace the salvation that comes through God's mercy and grace toward us who don't deserve it and pray they would repent and believe in the gospel. Otherwise, they, like everyone else or anyone else who rejects God's offer of reconciliation through faith in his son will be judged for their sin and sent to help both liberals and conservatives who reject Christ. Go to hell. We would need pray for their salvation as we do live in a changing and challenging world with.

There's a lot of colliding worldviews, but there is a world there is one worldview and one person. We can put our faith in entrusted nest Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever. The next time think biblically and live accordingly. We hope today's broadcast turned your heart towards God's word and the order a CD copy of today's program or sign up for our free weekly email or to find out how you can be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ go to our website the Christian world view dawdle. Call us toll-free at one AAA 646-2233. Christian worldview is a weekly one-hour radio program that is furnished by the over comer foundation and is supported by listeners and sponsors request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount go to the Christian world view dawdle will call us toll-free at one AAA 8646 2233.2 SF Box 01, Excelsior, MN 55331 that's Box 401, Excelsior, MN 55331. Thanks for listening to the Christian world.

The until next time think biblically and live according


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