Resurgence Turned Divergence in the Southern Baptist Convention, Part 3

Resurgence turned divergence in the Southern Baptist Convention. Today is Part 3 of this series here on the Christian Worldview Radio Program where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to share the good news that all people can be reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host, and our website is thechristianworldview.org. Well, thank you for joining us this weekend on the Christian Worldview as we talk about this topic of resurgence turned divergence in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Today is Part 3 as I mentioned. Over the last two programs, Tom Askell, pastor of a Southern Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, has joined us to discuss two issues currently being debated within the Southern Baptist Convention, or SBC, which is the largest Protestant denomination in America. Those issues are women teaching men, and critical race theory, a humanistic perspective on race and society. This week in Part 3, we will discuss the third issue, professing Christians who identify as, quote, same-sex attracted. Is it possible to be a Christian and accept desires for homosexuality as, quote, who I am, even if not acting on those desires, i.e.

celibate? This is the assertion of Nate Collins, a Southern Baptist Seminary-trained founder of the Revoice Conference, which seeks to, and states in their mission, quote, support and encourage gay and lesbian, bisexual and other same-sex attracted Christians, unquote. Now these debates within the SBC are examined in a documentary film titled By What Standard? It's produced by Founders Ministry, of which our guest today, Tom Askell, is the president. We highly encourage you to watch the film or order the DVD because it will sharpen your worldview as to what is taking place within the, not only the SBC, but the broader evangelical church today, and we're going to tell you how you can get the DVD through the Christian Real View throughout the program today. Let's get to the first segment of the interview with Tom Askell. Okay, we've talked about the issues that are being contended over, women teaching men.

We've talked about race and critical race theory, that worldview that you've been describing. And then one more issue that's been taking place is the issue of professing Christians who have homosexual desires. Now some of the denominations we've seen out there today in the mainline and so forth even recently with United Methodist Church have split over this and it's open homosexuals teaching and that kind of thing.

That is not what's going on in the SBC. Let's be clear about that. But this issue of the fact that Christians can have what they call same-sex attraction and still be a Christian, this is an issue. I know you at Founders have been doing a column series entitled Revisiting Revoice. Revoice was this conference that took place that summer based on this idea that a professing Christian can live with and have homosexual desires.

That's their identity. So before I ask you the question about this issue, I want to play another soundbite from your film from the current president of the SBC, J.D. Greer. He's a pastor, I think, in one of the Carolinas.

And let me play that soundbite and then have you follow up. Jen Wilkin, who's one of our favorite Bible teachers here and who's actually leading our women's conference. She said, she said, we ought to whisper about what the Bible whispers about and we ought to shout about what it shouts about. And the Bible appears more to whisper when it comes to sexual sin compared to its shouts about materialism and religious pride. In fact, Jesus one time, not one time ever said that it was difficult for the same sex attracted to go to heaven. He did say it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle, eye of a needle than it was for a religiously proud or materialistically successful person to enter into the kingdom of God. OK, again, that was President J.D. Greer of the Southern Baptist Convention, also a pastor.

That was in your film, that soundbite video clip, by what standard? Maybe you could explain, Tom, what the crux of this issue is. I think this one's a difficult one to discern. Most Christians might think, well, of course, you know, we're fallen. We have desires for wrong things. Some heterosexual Christians have desires for adultery or lust and so forth. How is that really any different than a Christian who has homosexual desires?

And that's just who they are. How would you answer that? Yeah, well, it goes back to the question of identity. And, you know, if anyone is in Christ, he's a new creation, old things pass away, all things become new.

This is Paul's language to us in second Corinthians five. So the issue is in what way then are Christians made new? How are we made new? Does that newness mean that we go ahead and live with the sin that remains in us having signed a peace treaty with it because that's just who we are? Or do we live with remaining sin in us saying we declare war on that sin and we're going to mortify the deeds of the flesh and the lust of the flesh so that we might live and not die?

Because if we don't, we will die. The sin that remains in a Christian is of the same quality of that which used to dominate us before we were Christians. And so we have to continually declare war on it and put to death the deeds of the flesh by the power of the Spirit.

This question is a naughty one and it can be difficult, especially you get into the deep weeds pretty quickly with it. But one way to bring clarity is to substitute other types of sin or you can just take other types of sexual deviancy for same sex attraction. So we say, all right, I'm a same sex attracted Christian and I expect you to accept me in my identity that way because that's just who I am. That's how God made me. Would we feel comfortable to hear someone say, you know, I am just a pediatric Christian. I'm a man who wants to have sex with children.

That's my desire. But I'm a Christian and I'm not going to act on that. But that's who I am. Don't try to change me. Or I'm a I'm a bestial Christian. I'm a man who wants to have sex with with the animals, but that's just who I am. Those are my desires.

They're inherent in me. Of course, we wouldn't. I mean, we automatically see that still at this point, give us 10 years, we may not. But at this point, we still see that that is perverse, that that is sin against nature. It is a violation. It's a it's a turning on its head the way God designed mankind as sexual beings. So in this sexual and the homosexual agenda, the LGBTQ agenda, there are those who want to lay claim of still being Christians identifying that way and they fall along a spectrum. So there's what's called Side A versus Side B gender dysphoria Christians. So a Side A Christian would be those who see homosexual sex as acceptable to God and the Bible and Christianity. So I am a same sex attracted person and I can have sex with the someone of my same sex and God approve of that. Side B says no, homosexual sex is not acceptable, but I am a same sex attracted Christian.

So I am, quote, gay and celibate. That's the language being used. And that's what Revoice is trying to advocate. This is that conference, as you mentioned. It's happened for two years in a row now, started by Nate Collins, who's a graduate, former teacher at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, PhD graduate from there.

But it's now hosted in a Presbyterian Church of America church in St. Louis, Missouri. And so here we've got two conservative denominations, one Baptist, one Presbyterian, that are very closely associated with this effort to normalize, quote, Side B homosexual thinking or homosexual identity as Christians. And the whole idea of celibacy, that word has been, that concept has been hijacked by the LGBTQ community because celibacy never meant not having sex with anything or anyone. It's always the heterosexual, the normal sexual beings that God created, which is heterosexual, refraining from that and not engaging in sex as God ordained it. To refuse to engage in sex the way God has forbidden it and perverse, it would be perverse to engage in, is not celibacy.

And yet that language has been taken up. And now we've got people who are applauding the gay and celibate Christians. Aren't they brave?

Look at how much they're sacrificing for the sake of Christ. And this is damaging to the people who are caught up in gender dysphoria, who are caught up in sexual confusion. And I'm not suggesting that somebody who has strong homosexual desires or has been caught up in a homosexual lifestyle, when they're converted automatically, they are free from those desires.

I'm not suggesting that at all. But I am saying that they should no longer identify themselves by those desires, just like we would tell anybody who is caught up in bestiality that when you're converted, you don't go forward identifying yourself with those kinds of perverse desires. You crucify them. You acknowledge these are sinful.

This is a result of the fall. This is why Jesus died. And though I may fight against this rest of my life, I do so knowing that I am now in Jesus Christ and that these desires and that perverse way of living no longer identifies me.

I'm a new creation and I'm going to fight and live that way based upon the grace of God that's been given to me in our crucified risen Savior. So again, this is an attack on the gospel. It's a misrepresentation of biblical Christianity and those who advocate it and those who are willing to sit by and let it be advocated and especially even those who would applaud it. How sacrificial our brothers and sisters are being by being gay and celibate. They are damaging people.

They're keeping people from the real grace that sets sinners free and establishes us in Christ as new creations. So you're really saying that the desires for illicit immoral sex are wrong. In other words, as let's say I'm a heterosexual married man, it wouldn't be right. Of course, it would be wrong for me to say, well, I just lust after other women, other people who aren't my wife and therefore that's my identity. No, we should not accept that. We should confess and repent of those desires and we should seek through the word and the spirit within us to overcome those desires. So our desires are in alignment with God's desires. Is that what you're saying? Absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean, God desires truth on the inward parts. The renovation that we have through the new birth is a renovation from the inside out. We are made new creatures.

It's not all automatic. I mean, it's not all zero sum at the beginning, but we are in the process of being completely set free from every sin, including sinful desires. So you think, what will heaven be? Heaven will be a place where there is no same sex attraction. Heaven will be a place where there is no heterosexual sinful attraction. Those things will be done away with. There will be no more sinful desires, as well as no sinful actions. And yet, as one of the breakout sessions at Revoice, not in 2019, but 2018, the first conference, they had a breakout session about queer treasure that will be taken into the New Jerusalem.

I mean, it's loony. It's not the same religion as that which is taught in the Bible. And for us to stand by and let this go on in the name of Christianity, much less for us to applaud it, is to do damage to people. It's to keep people from the real thing, because they have bought into a false thing thinking that it is Christianity.

And it grieves me. We're not helping those who need desperate help when the help of the true gospel is available to them. Tom Askell is our guest today here on the Christian Real View Board.

He explained that very well. It's a difficult issue to discern. It's the battle over words and phrases and concepts, as it always seems to be, when there's compromise at hand. We're talking about resurgence-turned-divergence in the Southern Baptist Convention. The third issue in Part 3 today is this issue of, quote, same-sex attracted Christians.

Is that even possible? We have much more coming up on the program today. I hope you'll stay tuned with us. You can also order this DVD by what standard for a donation of any amount to the Christian Real View. Just go to our website, thechristianrealview.org, or you can watch it online. Just click on the link on the homepage of our website.

More after this. The critical race theory and intersectionality are simply analytical tools. They're meant to be used as tools, not as a worldview. Not a transcended worldview above the authority of Scripture. And we stand by the strength of this resolution. Is the Southern Baptist Convention diverging from biblical orthodoxy over issues of women teaching men, homosexuality, and critical race theory?

Is this a bellwether of what's coming to your church? By what standard is a 110-minute DVD documentary about the battle taking place in the SBC? You can receive the DVD for a donation of any amount to The Christian World View. To order, go to thechristianworldview.org, or call 1-888-646-2233, or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. Be sure to take advantage of two free resources that will keep you informed and sharpen your worldview. The first is The Christian World View weekly email, which comes to your inbox each Friday. It contains a preview of the upcoming radio program, along with need-to-read articles, featured resources, special events, and audio of the previous program. The second is The Christian World View annual print letter, which is delivered to your mailbox in November. It contains a year-end letter from host David Wheaton and a listing of our store items, including DVDs, books, children's materials, and more. You can sign up for the weekly email and annual print letter by visiting thechristianworldview.org, or calling 1-888-646-2233.

Your email and mailing address will never be shared, and you can unsubscribe at any time. Call 1-888-646-2233, or visit thechristianworldview.org. Thank you for joining us today on The Christian World View radio program.

I'm David Wheaton, the host, and our website is thechristianworldview.org. Our topic is, if you just joined us, resurgence-turned-potentially-divergence here in the Southern Baptist Convention, primarily over three issues. You remember that the Southern Baptist Convention, way back when, had to actually turn in a theologically liberal way. But then in the 80s, they had a conservative resurgence.

And so let's hope and pray they're not turning, diverging from that resurgence that took place. And the three issues being debated are race, the issue of race, the issue of women teaching men. And today, the topic we're talking about is the idea that you can be a same-sex-attracted Christian. Our guest today is Tom Askel. He's a pastor, and he's president of Founders Ministries who produced this DVD.

Let's get back to the second segment with him. How would you rate these three issues we've discussed, from gender roles, women teaching men, to race and critical race theory, and then this issue of Christians who have, quote, same-sex attraction, how would you rate how strong the push is for each of them? Like, which one is the most prominently being pushed within the SBC of those three? I think it's the women's issue and the racial issue in the SBC, and I think it's the sexual issue in the PCA, interestingly enough. The racial issue in the SBC, of course, as I mentioned before, I mean, the history of the SBC is tainted. There's no doubt there has been significant racial sin in our history, and nobody should pretend that that's otherwise. It's certainly true, and the writings are there, and we need to look at it and own it, as the SBC has done on multiple occasions, expressing repentance over the sins of racial prejudice and sinful partiality that have been a part of our heritage. But the women's issue is also very significant, and we see this by more and more women being emboldened to talk about preaching in their churches on the Lord's Day.

This past Mother's Day in 2019, Beth Moore, who is a very successful author, Southern Baptist, and she's, I think, one of the, maybe the top author that LifeWay represents or sells her books, she put out on social media how she planned to preach in her church on Mother's Day, and other women said, oh, you know, I'm going to do that too, and they were joking about it. And when some of us questioned it and said, you know, this is not right, this is contrary to where we should be encouraging women to use their gifts and how we should be thinking about this, the pushback was amazing and sad and tragic and indicative of how far down this road we have gone. So I think the women's issue is going to be probably the flashpoint that it's going to have to be addressed and acknowledged in the SBC. The racial issue, I mean, man, there's racial prejudice, no doubt, still exists, needs to be dealt with. That's always tragic wherever it's found, and it has been found. There was a church removed last year, two years ago, from the SBC because of racism. Rightly so. From what I know of the situation, the church in Georgia was removed from the SBC.

The SBC disfellowshipped them because of their sinful racial partiality. That's right. But this women's issue, suddenly, it seems like our leaders are going mute. And it's like, well, you know, but she's Beth Moore.

Or, you know, she sells a lot of books. Or, yeah, it's a new church plant, and the wife of the church planter is a better preacher than the husband. So I think we're going to have to deal with that. I know for myself, and I talk to other pastors around the SBC, that is a bridge too far for us, and that issue is going to have to be resolved. Tom Askel again with us today on the Christian Real View. A pastor and also the producer of the film we've been discussing, all these sound bites have come from that film. The film is titled By What Standard?

You can get this film through the Christian Real View by going to our website. Let's just finish up with the last few questions, Tom. As I've been thinking about this, you know, the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, and its seminaries and all the entities associated with it, they aren't the church. They are parachurch organizations. Obviously there's a network of local churches they represent or affiliated with, but because these aren't churches, the SBC, and because this network, this denomination, has become so broad trying to represent so many different churches and people, isn't there bound to be problems and compromise within these things? Is there really a need for the SBC when the only institution God promises to bless is the local church, not the parachurch? Certainly there is no need for the SBC. God doesn't need the SBC.

He doesn't need any particular local church. The genius of the Southern Baptist Convention is that it is an associational structure whereby local churches that God has ordained can cooperate together. And so to the degree that we can do that in God-honoring ways, it can be a very useful thing, and it has been useful in various ways throughout history. However, that can become corrupted whenever the thinking gets inverted so that the SBC is seen to be an entity that is more important than local churches. We like to pat ourselves on the back in the Southern Baptist Convention by saying, well, the headquarters in the Southern Baptist Convention is the local church. Well, that is true, but sadly, what you have happening very often in practice is that headquarters is seen to be and what takes place in the offices in Nashville where the executives carry out the work day by day for the SBC or in our seminaries where the presidents and faculty and staff do their work or in various entities that are supported by the SBC. Now, I praise God for the good things that have happened in and through the cooperative efforts of churches known as Southern Baptists. However, that cooperative effort must not become the tail that wags the dog, and I'm afraid that's what is happening.

That's what has happened. Timothy George is the retired dean of Beeson Divinity School. He's a longtime friend of mine, and in the early years of the conservative resurgence, Timothy made this statement that I thought was prophetic, and today it is seen to be more prophetic than even I realized back when he made it. The exchange of one set of bureaucrats for another does not a reformation make. And my fear is that what happens is people get into leadership roles in our entities that are supported by autonomous Southern Baptist churches, and they begin to be shaped by bureaucratic forces forgetting that these entities belong to the churches and that they are accountable to the churches. And so if the Southern Baptist Convention is going to be helped and a course is going to be corrected as it needs to be, it will be because the churches and the pastors who lead those churches rise up and say, we are not going to go down this road any further. You are accountable to us. If you refuse to be accountable to us, then we're going to take action to exercise our responsibility as churches who indeed comprise the Southern Baptist Convention. I hope that we will get responsiveness from our Southern Baptist entity leaders and faculty and staff and those who serve in various capacities throughout the cooperative efforts of the SBC because there's much good that has been done and that is being done and that can be done. But if that gets corrupted by these godless ideologies, they're allowed to foment and grow and permeate into the various sectors of our cooperative efforts, then local churches are going to be forced to say, man, we can't go that route. If what you and I have been talking about is true and if we're seeing these things clearly, how in the world can we continue to facilitate the advance of these things that are going to undermine the gospel of Jesus Christ from Kent? Tom Askell again with us today in the Christian Real View.

Final question for you, Tom. And this soundbite I'm going to play from Vody Baccam. He's a well-known pastor. Is he a pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention?

He has been, but now he is the dean of the African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia. Okay, so toward the end of the documentary, again titled By What Standard, you did an interview with Vody Baccam and here's what he had to say. And there will be a falling away. There will be a great divide over this issue and it saddens me, but I don't see any other possible outcome other than this great divide. It's a bridge too far. And when we get that bridge too far, the feminist issue, and when I say the feminist issues, let me clarify. I think the issues of female pastors is going to be a bridge too far. I think, unfortunately, the Me Too aspect has already been embraced and imbibed. And we're going to see some, I think, some significant consequences from that as well.

Okay, so he used some of the same language that you just used in your last answer about a bridge too far. And you've talked about this conservative resurgence that took place in the Southern Baptist Convention back, I guess, starting about the 80s and so forth. And that's very rare, by the way, for an organization to go from theological liberalism to not becoming more theologically liberal. Just look at all the Ivy League schools in this country. See where they are today from their pretty overtly Christian foundings way back when.

So it's rare that this happened. So my final question for you is, for people listening out there today who may not be Southern Baptists, who are just thinking about their own church, maybe their own Christian school, their own Christian college, or whatever they're involved in, who see some drift taking place within their own organization or church, how can this story of potentially what's taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention, I call it resurgence, turning, divergence, how can that be avoided for a church, a denomination, an organization, or really getting down to the specifics, or an individual in their own life? Okay, Tom Askel will answer that question after this next break of the day here on The Christian Real View. That question, by the way, is why we've done this series, not to solely focus on what's going on within the Southern Baptist Convention. We know there's probably listeners today who are many listeners outside the Southern Baptist Convention. But what is taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention? The types of issues are the types of issues that are affecting broader evangelicalism. So how do we avoid this kind of drift? That's what it comes down to.

How do we stay faithful? Tom Askel, the pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, will answer that question next. Also, don't forget, we highly encourage you to get this DVD.

By what standard? You can get it for a donation of any amount at our website, thechristianrealview.org, or you can watch it online. We're back after this. David Wheaton here to tell you about My Boy Ben, a story of love, loss, and grace. Ben was a yellow lab and inseparable companion at a stage in my life when I was single and competing on the professional tennis tour. I invite you to enter into the story and its tapestry of relationships with Ben, my aging parents, with a childhood friend I would finally marry, and ultimately with God, who caused all things, even the hard things, to work together for good. Order the book for your friend who needs to hear about God's grace and the gospel, or the one who has gone through a difficult trial or loss, or just a dog lover in your life. Signed and personalized copies are only available at myboyben.com or by calling 1-888-646-2233.

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Thank you for your support. Think biblically and live accordingly. That is the aim of the Christian Worldview Radio Program as we discuss topic after topic during the course of a season or year. We try to get to the heart of what is the biblical perspective?

What's God's perspective on this particular issue? That's what we've been doing here at the Southern Baptist Convention with these issues that have been arising that are being debated within that denomination. Our guest is Tom Askel, a pastor. He's also the president of Founders Ministry who produced this DVD entitled By What Standard?

Founders.org is the website. If you want to get engaged with the type of content that they produce, they have columns and blogs and emails and that kind of thing if you want to find out more about them. But we have one segment to go with Tom here. So let's get back to here, the final segment, and then we'll have some follow-up afterwards.

I'll also tell you again how you can get this DVD By What Standard? For people listening out there today who may not be Southern Baptists, who are just thinking about their own church, maybe their own Christian school, their own Christian college or whatever they're involved in who see some drift taking place within their own organization or church, how can this story of potentially what's taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention, I call it resurgence, turning, divergence, how can that be avoided for a church, a denomination, an organization, or really getting down to the specifics or an individual in their own life? Yeah, that's a great question.

And the bottom line is there are no guarantees. No entity, no Christian organization ever drifts conservative. We always drift liberal. We have a devil. He hates us.

This world is opposed to us. Our own sin wants to be satisfied and those enemies combined to draw us away from Christ. And so we need to be aware of that and it just comes down to taking God seriously, taking his word seriously.

Believe what he has to say. I think a very helpful tool for every Christian individually and certainly for churches and any kind of Christian organization is confessionalism. And by that, I mean to adopt a biblical confession, declare what you believe clearly, nail your colors to the mast and be as simple and succinct as you can be saying this is what we believe, here we stand so that you're not always having to come back and ask the question, now what do we think about this?

Is Jesus really God or do we believe God's Trinity? No, nail your colors to the mast and be as explicit as you can be in it so that when the questions come up, you're already pre-committed to the big issues and you're not having to rethink everything all the time. But confessionalism is no guarantee. Just look at the institutions you referred to in the Ivy League and look at some of the Presbyterian denominations that had the Westminster Confession of Faith. And so you can have good confessions and still drift. But I think having a good confession and revisiting your commitment to it and maintaining the teachings of the scripture that you confess in it can be a very healthy tool. A second thing, and this is where I believe conservative Christians get tripped up very easily, is we cannot afford to assume the gospel. And by that, I mean conservative Christians lose the gospel not by one night going to bed and waking up the next morning and say, hey, I no longer believe the gospel, but rather over months and years and maybe decades assuming the gospel.

Of course we're all in the narratives. Of course we all believe the gospel is above all when in reality we started operating very subtly and over a period of time with assuming the truth of the gospel. Now, the reason this is so personal and important to me is that I have been guilty of this. There was a period in my ministry probably 25 years ago now when I went through a pretty dry spell and I was struggling. I wasn't sure what was going on with me. And God arrested me by reading George Whitefield's sermons in one particular sermon on 1 Corinthians 1 in which the gospel is set forth so explicitly and it just hammered me to realize the centrality of Christ and the need to preach Christ from all the scriptures. And as I went back and started examining my sermons in those recent months, I'd assumed the gospel. I was preaching exegetically. I was trying to do careful hermeneutics and exposition, but I was assuming Christ. I was assuming that people listening already knew Christ.

And so I actually did a little experiment. I went and listened to, I think it was one semester, maybe two semesters of sermons from three or four of our leading seminaries. So I was listening to chapel sermons. You know, these are sermons typically brought in with pastors coming in. I think I only listened to the pastors that came in, not to the faculty and the people in the seminaries.

But when guest pastors would come in and preach, I listened to their chapel sermons and seminaries from three different seminaries over, I think it was at least one, maybe two semesters. And it was amazing to me how many of those sermons dealt with how-tos and seven tips for this, six steps for that, and they assumed the gospel. And these are good men. These are men who believe the gospel. They die for the gospel. And yet they weren't preaching the gospel.

They were assuming it. And I think that evangelicals, we lose the gospel by assuming it. So I would encourage churches, I would encourage groups to not be offended by asking the question, what is the gospel and where's the gospel in my sermon? How is the gospel being held out and proclaimed and defended in our organization with our stated purposes? The final thing I would say is that ultimately, we are dependent upon the Spirit of God.

We can have the best confession in the world. We can have the greatest intent in the world with the greatest care to make sure that we're dotting the I's and crossing the T's on gospel teaching. But apart from the Spirit, we're gonna drift.

Apart from the Spirit, we can't do what needs to be done, and we will be easy pickings for our enemies. And so we've got to be people who cry out to God, who plead with Him to acknowledge our weakness and our dependence and to look to Him for the grace and the strength that is needed for us to stand. And if the Spirit doesn't help us, it doesn't matter whatever else we do, all will be lost. And so may God make us always mindful of our dependence upon the work of His sovereign spirit. Tom, that was a great exhortation for all of us, even if we're not involved in the SBC, just to remember these things, particularly what you said about the gospel, always proclaiming the gospel, getting to that most important offer that God has made to us, how we can be right with Him, and then exalting Him, exalting His Son.

And then, as you mentioned last, always realizing we need to live and pursue ministry in everything we do and the power of the Holy Spirit. So thank you for that great reminder, Tom, and for coming on the Christian Real View. We thank you also for producing this film, By What Standard. We hope everyone listening today watches this film, whether you're in the Southern Baptist Convention or not. It would be very helpful to understand how Satan tries to undermine churches and institutions and individuals.

They could be very helpful for people to watch it. So thank you for all your hard work in producing that, and we just wish all of God's best to you and your family and your church as well. David, thank you so much for all you're doing, and thank you for having me on your show.

It's been a great joy to be a part of this program. Okay, that was Tom Askell, everyone, and I hope you all benefited as much as I did, just from listening to him over the past three weeks here on the program, talking about these issues within the Southern Baptist Convention. And again, an encouragement to get the film.

I mentioned how you can get it by going to our website, thechristianworldview.org. It's available just to watch online, or if you'd rather have a DVD, it's 110 minutes long. It's a substantive film.

You may even want to watch it twice to really pick up all the different quotes, of which we've been playing some over the last three weeks of SoundBytes. But you can get the DVD. By the way, the DVD is available to ship sometime in February. The Founders Ministry, of which Tom is the president, they are producing it, or in the process of doing so. We're going to be releasing the DVD in February. As soon as we get those, we'll be shipping them out. Just go to our website to get it again, or you can call us at our office number, which is 1-888-646-2233, or you can write to us. This is for a donation of any amount, again, at Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331.

And that contact information, whether it's website or phone number or mailing address, is always given out during the program, during the commercial breaks, right after the program, so if you missed it there, you can get it at some other point throughout the program. Okay, just some follow-up on this. Today we talked about the issue of same-sex-attracted-quote-Christians. That's becoming a thing to identify that way, or it has become. And the Bible, let's be clear, has never had a sinful modifier before Christian. You're not a lustful Christian or a coveting Christian.

That's not the way the Bible ever refers to a Christian. Of course, a Christian can encounter those sinful desires, but should never accept them as part of his or her identity, but rather, as the Bible says, put to death the deeds of the flesh, or the desires of the flesh. I mean, just look at these passages from Colossians and Romans and see whether, after reading these, that you can still identify yourself with sin.

So, as Colossians 3 says in verse 5, therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, here one, evil desire, that's what homosexual desire is, it's evil, sinful desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. Romans 6, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him in order that our body of sin might be done away with so that we would no longer be slaves to sin, for he who has died with Christ is freed from sin. Or Romans 8, 12, So then, brethren, we are under obligation not to the flesh to live according to the flesh, and I'll add to its desires, sinful desires, for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die. But if by the Spirit, as Tom Askell was just saying, you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Now, there's a difference, I think, between temptation and desire. Temptation is something like a sinful thought that is presented to you that you have a choice of delving further in or in the power of the Spirit overcoming. After this break, we'll get back to what a desire is and how we should never, as Christians, accept sinful desires as okay or my identity.

No, we need to mortify them and crucify them. More coming up on the Christian worldview next. There's an abundance of resources available in Christian bookstores and online, but the sad reality is that many of them, even some of the most popular, do not lead to a sound and strong faith. A key aim of the Christian worldview is to identify and offer resources that are biblically faithful and deepen your walk with God. In our online store, we have a wide range of resources for all ages, adult and children's books and DVDs, Bibles and devotionals, unique gifts, and more. So browse our store at thechristianworldview.org and find enriching resources for yourself, family, friends, small group, or church. You can also order by calling our office toll-free at 1-888-646-2233.

That's 1-888-646-2233. Or visit thechristianworldview.org. The critical race, theory, and intersectionality are simply analytical tools. They're meant to be used as tools, not as a worldview. Not a transcended worldview above the authority of Scripture. And we stand by the strength of this resolution. Is the Southern Baptist Convention diverging from biblical orthodoxy over issues of women teaching men, homosexuality, and critical race theory?

Is this a bellwether of what's coming to your church? By what standard is a 110-minute DVD documentary about the battle taking place in the SBC? You can receive the DVD for a donation of any amount to The Christian Worldview. To order, go to thechristianworldview.org. Or call 1-888-646-2233.

Or write to Box 401, Excelsior, Minnesota, 55331. All right, final segment of the day here on The Christian Worldview radio program. I'm David Wheaton, the host.

Our website, thechristianworldview.org. This is our last segment here as we talk about this third part today of our topic, which is resurgence-turned-divergence in the Southern Baptist Convention. And if you missed any of the interview with Tom Askel, we'd encourage you to go to our website and hear these past three programs, or the short takes. By the way, we produce short takes every week, which are like highlights of four or five of them, about two or three minutes long, usually, about taking the highlights, so to speak, from the interviews or from the shows every week. So you can do that as well if you don't have time to hear the whole program. But before the end of the last segment of the program, we were talking about the difference between desire and temptation, and how Scripture says we should put to death the deeds of the body, or our sinful desires.

We shouldn't accept them and just say, this is who I am. You know, temptation is a sinful thought, or something that presents to you, and you have a choice from there, whether you're going to partake or you're going to overcome through the power of the Spirit. A desire is like that.

But a desire has more of the sense of an ongoing something you really want in your life, something that you've accepted in your life. So temptation in and of itself is not a sin, but a desire for what is wrong is sin. If you accept and embrace that desire and just say, well, I'm not going to partake in it, but I'm going to hold on to the desire, no, that is not what God wants from you. That is not what God wants for the believer. And of course, you may have sinful desires, a desire for pornography, or a desire for something illicit, or some transgression.

Of course, every believer has that, but should never be accepted into, oh, this is just the way I am, I can't overcome this. No, that's why Christ died. And you identify with Christ and his death if you're a believer, and his resurrection, his victory over sin, that's why he gives us the Holy Spirit and his word to be able to overcome these sinful desires, because if you harbor these sinful desires for long and accept them, eventually, in a moment of weakness, you will act on them. So accepting sinful desires as okay or my identity without trying to crucify them or mortify them through the power of the Holy Spirit is wrong. And by the way, as Tom was saying, homosexual desire is always sinful. Because there is no context in which it can be fulfilled righteously. Now, heterosexual desire is not always necessarily sinful, as long as that desire is for your spouse.

So there is a difference there. Homosexual desire is sinful when it's for someone who's not your spouse, but it's not one, it's for your spouse. But there's no context in which homosexual desire is not sinful. So this idea of a same-sex attracted Christian, as it's quoting, that's what they're called, a desire for a man to commit homosexual acts with another man, if you want to be more graphic about it, that's always wrong. That needs to be overcome in true believers' life.

When a Christian has a sinful desire, like lust or a same-sex attracted desire, as they would say, he or she should confess it, claim the victory that Christ gives us over it, and through the power of the Holy Spirit trust God that it can be overcome. The second issue I think that was important from today's interview was how to avoid drift. And this is the principle of life, and it's a scientific law that things tend toward disorder, not order.

And it's the same with ourselves and organizations spiritually and doctrinally. And I read, or there was another soundbite that I didn't play in the film, it was by Glenn Sunshine. He is a guy that talked about critical race theory. I think I may have played one soundbite from him in the first part of this series, but I want to play one more about where critical race theory leads, where it goes.

Here's Glenn Sunshine talking about that. My mainstream can't even support free market economics, for example, sometimes called capitalism, if you accept critical theory, the two of them are antithetical. Because in free market economics, people have choices, they make decisions, some of them win, some of them lose. Critical theory says that if you've lost, somebody had to have oppressed you, not you just made a bad decision.

So you can't end up with anything like conservative theology, conservative social policy, conservative politics. You can't end up any of those places if you buy into critical theory. It will inevitably lead you left. It started on the left and it will lead you to the left.

Okay, that's very important to understand. The wrong foundation, the wrong world view, that's why you can't use critical race theory, as that man was saying, as an analytical tool. If you start using the wrong world view, the wrong presuppositions, it inevitably leads you left, theologically. It inevitably leads you to drift. Things tend towards disorder, so that's why Jude said we need to contend earnestly for the faith.

That's how you avoid drift. It says, I felt the necessity to write to you, Jude, to appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith, which was once for all handed down to the saints. Verse 4, for certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. Remember, there's a whole world of professing Christians out there, but within that world, there are weak, true Christians and there are tares, professing Christians who may be really genuine and sincere, but they're tares, they're not truly saved, and they introduce, maybe even not insidiously, or not in an undermining way. Maybe they think they're doing the right thing, but nevertheless, false doctrine gets introduced, and then it inevitably leads these organizations and individuals to drift. You know, big organizations, they're just made up of people, and it's where those people are doctrinally that makes a difference.

We are all very easily influenced and compromised. It says in 1 Timothy 4, Paul tells Timothy, his younger, his understudy in the faith, pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching, persevere in these things, for as you do this, you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. There is this sense that we need to watch very carefully about what we believe, what is our doctrine, and our standard is God's Word.

Ultimately, Tom Askell said this in the film. I really do think it's time just to say, look, this is, we have a book, it says this, if you believe the book, that's good, we're on the same team. If you say, yeah, I believe the book, but because of the position I'm in, you know, I really can't say much, then, you know, go get a different kind of job. We have a book. The book is inspired by God, it's a supernatural book, it's a book unlike any other book. It is the mind, the will and the ways of God put down in black ink on white paper, inspired, inerrant, infallible. Go back to the book.

That's how you avoid drift. We thank you for joining us today on the Christian Real View Radio program. A lot to think about what's going on in the Southern Baptist Convention, but also what's going on in broader evangelicalism. Hopefully, it's informed all of us and sharpened our world view to be more discerning about what is taking place and to always go back to the book as our final authority. There is one thing, Christian, to know what we can count on and trust in. The Bible says Jesus Christ and His word, they're the same yesterday, today and forever. Until next weekend, everyone, think biblically and live accordingly. The Christian World View is a weekly one hour radio program that is furnished by the Overcomer Foundation and is supported by listeners and sponsors. Request one of our current resources with your donation of any amount. Go to theChristianworldview.org or call us toll free at 1-888-646-2233 or write to us at Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. That's Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331. Thanks for listening to The Christian World View. Until next time, think biblically and live accordingly.