The Real Jesus vs. Woke Jesus with Lucas Miles

Hey everybody, today on The Charlie Kirk Show, Lucas Miles joins the program, author of Woke Jesus. Great conversation.

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Register now at tpaction.com. It's going to be a fun hour here with Pastor Lucas Miles. Welcome.

Thank you so much. I show your book here, and we're going to be talking about it all hour. Woke Jesus, the False Messiah Destroying Christianity. And we've had you at a Freedom Night before. I think we had you on the show before.

You're terrific, and so much to talk about. So we are living through pagan times, we are living through in a post-Christian era, but I first want to talk about your book, because your book is really a precursor to that, which is in some ways they've weakened Christianity in the West by making Jesus seem like a social justice warrior Marxist, not the Savior of the world. Yeah, it's his counter reading of Scripture.

A lot of times it's called a counter myth, which even that statement is deceptive, because it's implying that the first reading of Scripture or that Scripture itself is myth to start with. And so we have to present kind of this alternative Jesus, that he is this great social justice warrior rather than the Savior of the world, that he's an immigrant, that he is sort of this barefoot hippie that loves everybody, and he's pro-socialism, he's pro-trans, and it is a great deception. And Jesus is being used as propaganda to push this Marxist agenda in our nation.

So how old is this, this rewriting? I mean, whenever you have something beautiful, good, and true, really bad parasitic forces try to take that beautiful, good, and true thing and use it for their purposes. How far can we claw back to show the subversion of Scripture for this? Yeah, so if you're talking about specifically from a Christ-centric New Testament framework, right? We see early heresies in the church, we can look at the first several hundred years of Christianity, and they exist. But really at this level that we're talking about, it's the 1700s, it's that post-Enlightenment period where we start seeing in Germany specifically the birth of what was known as these Jesus biographies, and that becomes later tied to the quest for the historical Jesus. And so it is essentially now that we're in this age of enlightenment and reason and rational thought and scientific method that we recognize now that the miracles of the Bible, that these can't be true, these have to be myths and fables. And so there was work that theologians were doing, specifically German theologians, to start rewriting the accounts of Christ to make sense of these miracles, basically to excuse them away and to make Jesus more terrestrial. He was this great champion of the people rather than the Savior of all. And like the activist for the underclass, basically.

100 percent, 100 percent. And you know, everybody took that and kind of handled it a little bit differently, and some of these were ludicrous. I mean, you had people that say, you know, he was part of a Senian cult, and that the way he fed the 5,000 was that he had a group of monks baking bread in a, you know, behind a rock, you know, behind him as he's, you know, dressing the 5,000, they're passing bread secretly to him that he's multiplying, you know, these ridiculous kind of ideas that were out there.

And most of those were criticized and kind of called out. But as theological thought went on, you had, you know, eventually, you know, it was Albert Schweitzer that really, you know, wrote kind of the definitive work that established what we know as this quest for the historical Jesus. And in many ways, that's kind of what broke the Harvards and the Yales and the Prinstons as being theological institutions. It was introduction of this social gospel, this social Jesus, rather than a spiritual faith. And so, you know, we started seeing, really, a rewriting of Scripture, this revisionist history that has affected people the way they think about Jesus, even today. And yeah, we see that manifest in those ridiculous advertisements that he gets us, right, which is far more focused on the man than on the divine of Christ's nature, which again, both are equally interesting for us, but we don't worship Christ because he came as a man, we worship him because he is Lord and King.

You know, it's interesting, I've followed this fairly closely, and they have some interesting kind of diverse names that are part of that, you know, whole creative package that went into that. And some of those names are more concerning than others, right? And by no means am I an expert on that, but the thing that I've seen with it is, what they're calling it is sort of this pre-evangelism, that, you know, we're not trying to share the gospel through these, because there's no way you could watch these and get saved. You couldn't watch these and see somebody, you know, you know, kind of a, you know, a priest washing somebody's feet and come to any sort of saving knowledge of the cross or anything like that. There's no gospel presentation in them.

It's very sort of what feels like pro-socialist, pro-illegal immigrant, you know, all of those things. But they're calling it pre-evangelism. But I don't see anything in Scripture that calls us to do what is called pre-evangelism, right?

We're called to preach the gospel, and we're not called to just give little bits and pieces of it. Yeah, and so I mean, I actually got the first screening from the He Gets Us people. Andrew was on the call, he'll attest to this, and they wanted to partner with us, so it was like a potential great thing.

Sure. And I just said, I think this is awful. Good for you. Yeah, I was like, I think you guys are making a huge mistake. But that's, this is what they do, right? The perfect example, because, and I think it's so important, because most people, you know, I think that are out there, the average Christian doesn't know how media works, and so if you have some radical new concept that you want to put out there, what's the best way to get it to be accepted?

Is to find other Orthodox groups that will sign off on it and go, well, see, it's not this radical, you know, we have groups like Turning Point and Charlie have signed off on it, and so now all of a sudden you're given, you know, validity to this slow sort of chipping away of Orthodox love. I did not sign off on it. Good for you. For the record, I did not. Good for you.

And I tried very hard to get them to dialogue. There's so much wrong with it. First of all, this idea of He Gets Us is so actually narcissistic, so narcissistic, which is like, wait, I want the divine to get me? No, no, no.

He died, I should get closer to Him. Right. It's the opposite, right? So this whole idea that He, like, gets me, this kind of, like, broey thing, and wait, does He get me if I'm sinning?

Right. And look, this should be an obvious, right? The God who made me of course gets me. He knows me because He thought of me, He formed me, but the question is, do I understand Him? Am I willing to die to myself and embrace Him?

Am I willing to let go of kind of that pride and that ego? Transform. And to be conformed into His image. You know, I present it like this a lot of times, that progressivism and Christianity, they have one thing in common, and that is progress, right? We believe in progress as Christians. For the progressive, it's progress for progress's sake.

There's no destination in mind. It's just to basically put that dialectic to work and to transform the next generation into something further along than what the previous generation was. And there's no end point ever in mind. But for Christianity, we have a definitive end point, and that is to be conformed to the image of Christ. And we are moving towards—so we're not against progress. We are for progress, but we're for progress to a specific destination, and that is Christ. The right theological destination, not just progress for progress's sake.

And it's Romans 12 too, which is, do not conform to the ways of this world, but instead be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So the idea of progress is very important, and Christianity does see history as a narrative of the beginning and end. Most other cultures see things like a wheel.

So Hinduism, for example, sees—that's one of the most famous symbols in Hinduism, and Buddhism, by the way. This idea of cyclical, right? That there really is not a beginning and an end.

It's all kind of turning. Going to your Woke Jesus point, it seems as if the Marxists and the Hegelians took the Christian view of history, and they applied it to their view. So they—because Christianity was the first to say there was the Bereshit in the beginning, you know, God created the heavens and the world, and the whole world was null and void, and then there is Jesus on his throne and life ever after.

And everything in between, right? You can call it the church era, whatever. The Marxists said, huh, fascinating view of history. It also gives purpose if people believe history has an end point, right? You know, look, when you look at this, I think that it's important to recognize that so many of these ideas, whether it's Hegelian thought or Marxist, et cetera, paganism in general, it's a parasite. And it's attaching itself to Christianity, because Christianity is a really good vehicle, but it's actually not a great long-term host for these things, because the absoluteness of God's word stands against some of those ideas. If the disciples, if the converts will then preach it as such, as a hot gospel, if you live up to the absoluteness of the standard, could you then argue that that absoluteness actually creates an immune system against the infection?

It should. But when it's watered down, when it's not used fully, when it's not, you know, taught the way that it is. You're immunosuppressed. You become, yes, that's a great term. You're on your 11th booster. Yes, exactly.

You're on your 11th booster. You're like, I don't know why the woke stuff keeps on infecting me. 100 percent. You've suppressed your immune system, and I actually think from a political standpoint, the immune system of America is truth and justice.

Yes. So when you no longer have truth and justice, your immune system is suppressed, and you allow foreign invaders to take over essentially the body. The book is Woke Jesus. So let's dive deeper into your book here. What other elements, kind of build this out the structure of your book. I want people to buy it, obviously.

Absolutely. So the book is called Woke Jesus. And, you know, really what I wanted to do was put together a definitive history of wokeism in specifically its integration or intersection with the church and Christianity. Because, you know, of course, there's a secular wokeism that we see that really, you know, it doesn't really have that much of an intersection in the church, other than they hate Christianity and they hate everything that it stands for. But there is this version, this kind of strand of wokeism that I believe really started in the church.

I think that wokeism has a genesis in religion. It's a religious structure, first of all. And it started as this sort of parasitical thought or alternative, you know, reading of scripture within Christianity. And right from the beginning, Jesus was used as a propaganda figure. And so I go through in the book, I go through what is known as the quest for the historical Jesus. I take that into, you know, how the social gospel and things interacted with the formation of liberation theology, which is Marxism and Catholicism within the Catholic Church. And of course, we see that jump to the United States in the form of black liberation theology with James Cone.

And so I trace that. I spent a lot of time reading Cone's work. And it's some some pretty disturbing stuff when you think specifically this is a minister who's writing these words, things like, you know, we have to, you know, throwing a Molotov cocktail in Whitey's storefront isn't the best way to do God's work. But somebody has to start someplace, you know, these statements like this that he makes that are really radicalized. You have to kill the white Jesus, you have to kill the white God, you know, you have to become black in order to be saved, you know, these statements. And so then, of course, you know, I follow that into, you know, kind of the modern, really more atheistic form of black liberation theology, which is what we know as CRT.

I don't think we would have CRT without James Cone. You know, he really kind of opened up a door for a lot of those ideas and Derek Bell and others to be able to generate that. And then, of course, the modern implications, you know, how I have a whole theology of COVID, how we approach this. And I really, you know, a lot of times when I write, I have a message that I want to get out there about the dangers of this progressive and woke thought. But there's also a message for the church in there. How do we respond to this?

How do we navigate this? Of course, I want to spend ample time on that, for sure. So I want to get to one thing you said. You said that wokeism parallels a religious structure.

What do you mean by that? So, first of all, you have, you know, if we look at after the death of George Floyd, right, all of the protests and the burning of cities and all the things, these demonstrations that were happening, there's mantras. You know, you have to say certain phraseology, there's certain posturing, you take a kneel, you raise a fist. You know, it's kind of this religious framework. You know, there are certain doctrines and dogmas that they hold to that if you don't, you know, if you don't say that, you know, it was that whole trying to catch people. Silence is violence. Silence is violence.

You know, if you don't say Black Lives Matter, then, you know, you're a racist. And so kind of positioning people. And so it has all of the trappings.

Yes, exactly. It has all the trappings of a religion. And it's really kind of in that Marxist framework of a man-centric, you know, religion. It's the, they flipped, you know, they flipped, you know, the cross upside down and they put man at the top.

They really put George Floyd at the top of it in that case, you know, as the great savior. And the idea of wokeism, or if we want to just call it whatever that filler term is, these are counterfeit religions that are not necessarily anything new. We should call them pagan because that's really what they are. And involved in almost every pagan belief is child sacrifice. Which, of course, our country specializes in. We sacrifice, we sacrifice a million babies every single year.

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Andrew and Todd dot com. So I believe that it's either you believe in one God, the Shema, right? I am the Lord your God who delivered you from Egypt, or I am the Lord your God, you know, I am one, as it says in Deuteronomy 3-5, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. Or you believe in many different types of gods, the pantheon of gods. And remember, the Romans, way back when, they had no problem with Paul or the apostles if they wanted to add Jesus to the pantheon. It was the idea that there was a one God, that there's a monotheistic, ubiquitous Hashem over all.

Your thoughts on that, Lucas? Yeah, I mean specifically in Rome, which is a period of time that I really enjoy reading about and reading, you know, original documents from, is that Christians were known as atheists during that period because they didn't believe in the pantheon of gods. You know, they didn't adopt sort of this Olympic structure or Hellenistic structure of deities. And even if they, you know, for the Roman just to accept Jesus as one of many wasn't a big deal, but for the Christian that was obviously an issue.

And this is where a lot of persecutions, many of the persecutions in Rome, I think that we get a wrong idea that, you know, Romans were just constantly trying to kill Christians. It wasn't necessarily the case, but they were creating a lot of standard, you know, kind of tests of religion that you had to demonstrate because they believed so much in the favor of this pantheon and these local deities that you had to sacrifice to them and worship them. And Christians could not obviously participate in that because to do so would be idol worship. It would be, you know, a betrayal of the cross. A second commandment.

Absolutely. And so it wasn't that they were necessarily targeting Christians, but Christians got brought into this because Rome didn't understand their faith very well, obviously, at the beginning. But they were called atheists because they wouldn't worship all these other gods. And this is where you have the great, you know, early Christians like Justin Martyr and others in Jerome that wrote these great apologies, these defenses of the Christian faith showing that Christianity is actually the thing that brings the best good into the world, and that it is the answer for all these injustices that are out there, and that's how it won over the Western world.

The problem is, though, is that wokeism is rewriting that. It's providing this new kind of, you know, revisionist history that is tearing down those arguments, and most Christians are not actually capable and qualified to make a strong, you know, stance about their faith. And this is why it's so important that we get in the Word, right? That we are reading it, that we're knowing it, so that we can defend our faith in those ways. And so when people say they're an atheist, again, I think atheism is like a psyop from Satan, they really don't believe in nothing. Something is their god, and it could be the god of earth worship, anti-racism. So it might be themselves, it might be aliens, right, in today's world, it might be the earth, it might be the divine, the spirit, you know, some sort of, you know, sort of esoteric, you know, framework that they have. And what we're seeing right now, if you go on maybe an app like TikTok or Instagram or whatever, and you search modern paganism, you are going to get some of the craziest videos that you've ever seen of people dressed up performing Hellenistic rituals, trying to, you know, go after the, you know, repeat and revitalize faith of the druids and different things.

This is a real thing. Yeah, it's massively expanding. Yeah, it's not as big as other forms, like pride paganism. Yeah, and that's a whole other, right?

So we have all these different variants of it, and the way in which it is sort of captured this. So yes, we see this, you know, whether it be, you know, queer paganism or some sort of more, you know, historical framework that's trying to be revised, it's although the same thing, right? It's being driven by this, and that is an anti-god, anti-bible, anti-Jesus, anti-creator of the world. It's a rebellion against God. It's what happened in the garden. It's what happened again at the Tower of Avil. It is this continuous rebellion that man becomes obsessed with to go against, you know, our Creator.

And that really is the tension point here. The spiritual aspect of this cannot be, you know, mistaken, which is there's an enemy who comes to lie, steal, cheat, and destroy, and all these counterfeit ways are ways to try to keep distance from our Creator. Yeah, and look, this is an interesting thing, and I don't know if this is going to be very popular for everybody, but as the church has expanded and, you know, really become, you know, more of kind of Christian business in many industries, you know, the church, look, it's obviously, without a doubt, it's the most, you know, humanitarian, it gives more humanitarian aid than any other organization. I mean, you know, Christians are really champions of that. But to some degree, I think some of that has done us a disservice, and here's what I mean by that is that I believe that one of the benefits of actually being part of the church was the benefit of community, and we have sort of created this world where everybody gets the benefit of Christian community, whether or not they belong to Christ or not, or whether they belong to the church. It's sort of like, you know, having, you know, intimacy before you're married.

What reason is it for the guy to get married at that point? And I think we have people out there that are receiving the benefits of Christianity without actually having that real, you know, draw to be led into an intimate relationship, a personal relationship with Jesus, and I think it pushes some, I think it delays that for some people. Yeah, and they're not, I don't know if they're actually born again. So the church is largely indifferent to this still.

Yeah. They say, I don't do politics, I don't speak out about this stuff. You know, we've started a, you know, an organization, you guys have been incredible to work with us at Turning Point Faith as well, you know, called the American Pastor Project, and it's really an initiative within our organization, the Influence Network, and we have a call out to pastors where they would sign a statement at americanpastorproject.org, and they would take a stand against wokeism, basically say that I'm going to preach, you know, a historical Christianity that's based on the Bible, and I'm going to stand against wokeism at my local church. We've got 500 plus pastors, I know you guys have thousands of pastors you work with at Turning Point Faith, and it's incredible to see those that are willing to take that stand, but there are still way too many out there, as you know, that are not willing to stand up, that do really, they're not preaching the full counsel of the Word of God. They're shrinking back on these issues because they're afraid of losing their people. I've lost 50% of my church in 2015 to 2016.

To refiners fire. Right. I preached an eight-week series about what does the Bible have to say, and we looked at socialism versus the free market, we looked at open borders and national sovereignty, we looked at things like sexuality, gender, divorce, you know, all of this, and within about an eight-week period we lost 40, 50, you know, percent more of our church, and with that, our revenue, everything else, and we're the strongest we've ever been, we're the biggest we've ever been. Have you recovered past that? We've built back better, right?

Oh, I love that. How much of the economy was like that? Right. But it really took getting on the other side of COVID, I think, for people in our area to wake up. You know, I'm from South Bend, we lived through the tyrannical regime of Mayor Pete Buttigieg there. With all the potholes? Yes, all the potholes.

Pothole Pete there in South Bend, and Domino's Pizza actually came in and gave the city a grant to repair those, by the way, so we got bailed out by a pizza company. He runs our transportation department. Yes, he does.

Yes, he does. The terrain never worked from South Bend to Chicago either, it was always broken down. No surprise. But, you know, look, the church, we have to circle the wagons on some stuff. There's way too many secondary doctrines that keep Christians separated from one another. Look, I think secondary doctrines matter.

What am I talking about? Things like spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues. Eschatology.

Eschatology. I got in trouble for saying that secondary doctrine. But look, and there are certain people that would go, there's no such thing as a secondary doctrine. But there are. There are.

That statement itself is... Yes, it might be a tertiary doctrine at that point, right? And so we have to learn how to go, we have to set some of these things aside so that we can find unity in believers. There is Christianity, the nation is under attack, we have to work together if we want to see these things push back.

I completely agree, and liberty is God's idea, not man's idea. There still is this hesitancy, though, by some pastors who say, this is how it goes, and they're about to do these sermons when they come back from their summer sabbatical, which every pastor needs time off. It's a tough job.

And that's not sarcasm. I couldn't be a pastor. I couldn't do it. I have such respect for people that are pastors.

It's a gifting I don't have. Because pastoring is not just speaking. I'm good at speaking. Pastoring is a completely different deal. Is they're going to come back, and they'll be like, everybody, welcome, happy Labor Day. I know a lot of you guys have thoughts on the election, and we have some Republicans here, and we have some Democrats here, and I want you to know that Jesus is the only thing that we do here.

Everyone claps and applauds, and he says, so because of that, we won't be talking about the election here, and we are here to love on you and pray for you, and God bless you. How many times do you think that sermon is going to be given? It's going to be given a bunch.

It's going to be given an absolute bunch. Why is that in error? So it's in error because there are specific things that are happening in our world and being presented that are cataclysmically against Scripture, right?

They're completely antithetical to Scripture. So I was talking to a Catholic priest, actually, about this, and I said, you know, where are you at on the whole Republican and Democrat thing? And he goes, look, he goes, I don't think either party's perfect, but he says, I have to commit nine sins, according to the Catholic Church, to sign a statement to support the Democratic Party.

And just by doing that. And I thought that was such a great position, you know, the stance on abortion, the stance on really personal responsibility with all the socialism and entitlement programs that are there, the complete just ignoring of sovereign borders and nations, the treatment towards Israel, all the stuff, all the trans, all the harming children. I mean, it goes on and on. Are Republicans perfect? No, of course not. Is any one candidate?

No, of course they're not perfect. But we have to take a stand. Preaching the whole Council of the Lord of God. I think the first time that we connected, you know, in person was at your pastors conference you guys did.

And one of the things I shared there was, look, you know, the same way that God comes to Eve and says, who told you you were naked, you know, to Adam and Eve in the garden. I think that pastors, we need to hear the Lord say to us, who told you these things were political? Who told you that abortion was political?

Who told you, you know, that open borders is political, that marriage is political? These things are first and foremost spiritual issues. And pastors, it is your job. It's your job to speak about these things in the pulpit and to teach your people on how to be able to present.

So that's a great point. I want to, don't let me forget it. It's your job because I actually think we're fine. I'm finally realizing it last couple months.

They have a different opinion what their job is. All right. I need to tell you guys about Strong Cell. It's amazing. With nearly a million units bought by you, it is more clear than ever that Strong Cell works. It works to combat fatigue, brain fog, joint pain, skin issues, and constant sickness.

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Strong cell dot com forward slash Charlie. Check it out right now. What is the job of a pastor? So I think the job of the pastor, first and foremost, you know, we see this in Ephesians four. It's to train up God's people for works of service.

Right. But before we get to that, that sort of job description is and let me back up. I would say the first job of a pastor is to protect their own anointing. It is in what I mean by that is that they have to protect their heart and to ensure that they stay connected to the Lord. That is their first job.

And because so many have have lost sight of that, I don't I can't tell any pastors that never read the word other than to prepare for a message. Right. And you look, you go through seasons.

I have had you know, you're you have seasons right where you go, man, it's been it's been a couple of weeks since I really sat down and did this other than to do message prep. Right. But look, you have to develop that discipline. You have to go.

I'm in the word on a regular basis, professional athlete saying I haven't I haven't run a 40 and, you know, watch film. Right. You know, you can do anything. It is part of this. And I think that in our culture, the way it is, there's so many things that are pulling on pastors. Pastors expected to be, you know, travel agents and counselors and attorneys for people and all these things that they, you know, get get pushed to be. And I think that, you know, it's easy to lose sight.

But you have to protect that first and foremost. The second thing that I think is missing in the church and this this I'm sure there's some people would want to debate me on this. But in Ephesians four, before you see this mission of to train up God's people for works of service, it's not specifically the pastor only that's doing that. It's what the what I would call the fourfold or the fivefold ministry.

We see apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, evangelist. Now, I'm not going to sit here and debate whether or not there's apostles today that we're not going to use your show for that platform. Right. Unless you unless you find me back specifically on that topic. I won't do that.

I couldn't care less. OK, but but I do believe that without a doubt, the church is called to be apostolic. It is called to be prophetic in the sense it is called to be evangelistic. It is called to be pastoral.

It is called to be, you know, a teaching, you know, have a teaching component to it. A healthy church has all of those. What's the apostolic do? It advances. It moves the gospel forward.

It takes it from, you know, point A to point B to going into new areas. What's prophetic to it speaks truth, you know, into into areas that are, you know, need to have those things. So many people that call themselves pastors are truly only doing the pastor work. They're shepherding the sheep or they're teaching, but they're not willing to do the apostolic job of dividing doctrine and setting the record straight on what the scriptures say and what does it not say. They're not willing to do that prophetic job of really calling out things, you know, and being that voice that maybe somebody doesn't necessarily want to hear, but it needs to be said. And we have watered down the church to one job only, and that is the pastoral, when in fact it is supposed to have all of these functions.

And again, I'm not going to say offices, but all of these attributes at minimum present. And I think that that's something, regardless if you're coming from a Reform background or Catholic background or Evangelical background, I think that we should be able to embrace that the attributes of those things should be present in the body of Christ today. I completely agree with that.

And I just, you say, this is your job. I don't think every pastor would necessarily agree with that. Is it okay if a pastor offends his congregation? I think it's okay if the word of God offends a congregation, right? I mean, look, as a pastor, you're going to offend people. I've offended plenty of people. I've had plenty of people leave my church.

I understand completely, right? We need to be unafraid. It is that we have so many people that are kind of that Gideon in the wine press, you know, that are hiding, that they're afraid of they're going to say something to set you off and trigger their audience. And look, I'm more concerned about ignoring truth and having to face the Lord than I am about saying truth and having to face my people.

And in fact, I think loving them is speaking truth to them. So I want to get into now just current events here. Your opinion on this upcoming election, Donald Trump v. Biden versus all of this, as someone who loves the word, who loves the Bible, who loves liberty, how do you plan to vote and how should other Christians vote and how should they think about voting? Let me say to start with, you didn't ask me this ahead of time, so you don't know what my answer is.

I have no idea. And without a doubt, I believe that there is one answer for this for this election, and that is Donald Trump and President Trump. You know, we have seen already his time in office. The world didn't end. There were no new wars. The economy was going great.

My bank account was probably doing a little better, even than it is right now. And there was there was many, many, many, many reasons to vote for him. And you've done a great job addressing some of those over the years. The you know, he has also been the most pro Christian president, I think, that we've ever had. And, you know, repealing the Johnson Amendment from day one, you know, being able to first Christian president, I care first president I can ever remember who was speaking about persecuted Christians and actually addressing that. I can't remember any other president ever addressing persecuted Christians the way that he did. Yes, absolutely.

You have to go to March for Life. And so I think this is an easy call. This is a good versus evil election. Is Donald Trump perfect? No, of course not.

None of us are. But do I think he has a handle on the tyranny that we're facing today as as a nation? Do I think he has a handle on on what's going on in the world and the way in which elites are trying to use power to, you know, really control the masses? I think he absolutely does.

And I think his policies have already been proven. I think we're going to see them work again. I want to play cut seventy five here. I want to. Jill Biden agrees with you. It is good versus evil.

Let's play cut seventy five. I've raised alarm bells among other Republicans about the danger of a second Donald Trump term. And I'm genuinely fearful for what that could look like. But consistently, we're seeing poll after poll that are showing Trump beating your husband outside of the margin of error. Are you fearful of what a second Trump term could look like?

Or a third, as Donald Trump says. So I believe that Americans are going to choose good over evil. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Woe to those who call good, evil and evil good. Yes. And look, I mean, to some degree, I think that she's got a little bit of a prophetic statement because I do believe that Americans are going to choose saying God is speaking through Dr. Jill Biden. He's spoken through donkeys before. Right. We can make this work.

Ballum's donkey. Right. It wouldn't be the first time. And so, yes, this is a good versus evil election. And I think without a doubt, Americans do need to do the right thing. And as Donald Trump going to solve every problem, no. Is that is the job of the church done after Donald Trump is elected? No, we've got so much work to do to win back this. It might buy us some time.

That gives us a little bit of a reprieve. So what do you have to say then to Christians? And they come to my event and they say, but he's allegedly an adulterer, live the colorful life.

I don't like the way he talks. I get those objections only from very, very committed Christians. Yeah.

Like this is a this is a group of folks that are incredibly devout and not all by with a super devout people that don't share this like us. Right. But there's there's a there's a hesitancy and they say, I just I can't vote for him. How should they think about it?

Should they prioritize his behavior or his actions and policies? So, you know, statements like that actually, to some degree, are are some evidence that we have, in fact, live in lived in historically a Christian nation. Right. Because there's an assumption that a candidate is actually going to hold to Christian values. Right.

So we have people that I mean, that in of itself kind of gives them some validity to that. And so we have to come to let's just set aside Donald Trump's faith for a second. You know, I you know, you know, personally, I've not met him personally in those things. And so let's just let's set that aside. Let's just look at his policies.

We have a track record. We've seen him in office. We've seen what he's done.

All these statements of he's going to blow up the world and lead a nuclear war. Those are hollowed out. Right. Because we've already have evidence that none of that happened.

The world is actually blowing up and the world is blowing up now. Right. So we know that those things are hollowed arguments. But when we look at these other things, we the reality is that there's might come a time in America's history. I pray it doesn't where we don't have any sort of Christian choice on the ballot.

And so how are we going to handle that then? You know, are we able to go through and say, is one better than another? Is one is one Caesar better than another Caesar in this in this regard?

And I think the answer absolutely is yes. And look, to have a Christian or to have a president that it all identifies and supports Christian values, that continues to honor God, continues to honor Jesus, continues to honor pastors and prayer. And, you know, we're actually talking with his people right now about the possibility of trying to get him on the American Pastor Project for one of our calls. And I believe the pastors need to hear, you know, from from President Trump on these issues. We hear from any world leader, you know, on these issues that are facing the church. So they are aware of our concerns and that we also have a chance to impact them and influence them as well as they are fighting for all of our behalf. So I think these are empty arguments.

I think they're foolish arguments. Of course, we all would love to have, you know, that that that Christian prince. But I'm not waiting for a Christian prince.

I already have one. His name's Jesus. Right. And so we need we need the best option for the American people right now. And we only have one option. And that's Donald Trump. I completely agree. And the question is, can we get enough Christians to prioritize the good, the true, the beautiful, the nation, liberty, self-government over their, I don't know, their hesitancy, their potential issues of Donald Trump's behavior?

I also just I have very little patience for it when it just comes to the fundamental life or death type issues. Donald Trump is all that stands between a pagan regime basically permanently engulfing the country. But look, so I mean, this is what a lot of people aren't aware of. How much of Christian music, how much of Christian universities, how much of Christian publications have been infiltrated by leftist ideology already and that they are pushing this? And so the Christians that are out there that aren't as engaged as you or I, they're they're getting a subscription to Christianity today and these other publications that are essentially, you know, being used as propaganda centers for a lot of these ideas. And look, there's good people with all these institutions and publications. But I think as a whole, a lot of them have been impacted very negatively. You know, my previous book, The Christian Left, goes into all of that. And look, we have seen this.

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Use discount code Charlie to get 35% off. So, the marching orders for Christians right now in this election year, what would you, in the ideal, like to see from the church? In the ideal? Yeah, I think that you have to have one foot in the local and one foot in the national conversation. You know, look, not every pastor is doing tons of interviews. I mean, I did 500 interviews last year on, you know, major publications and those things.

And I understand that that's a rarity, you know, for a lot of people. But we have to at least be aware of what's happening at a national level. We have to be able to have those conversations because your people are watching the news. They're involved in this.

You have to be able to answer those things. Anytime there's a major world event, I'm addressing that usually what my staff calls the pre-message. You know, I'm getting up there. I might have a topic that I'm teaching on on that Sunday, but I'm going to take a little time and I'm going to address that to my church. You know, I've been in, look, I'm saying these things not just as a traveling circuit speaker. I'm a senior pastor of a ministry.

I preach almost every single Sunday, you know, at our church based in South Bend, Indiana. And this is, we've seen, you know, the importance of this with these issues. There's also, you have to be involved in the local. You have to, you know, know what's going on at your school board. Know what's going on at your county politics.

All of these things. Get involved in that. Maybe you have some people in your ministry that you can help raise up to run for office.

Maybe you need to run for office and to be able to assist this. And I think that we have to be able to do that. We also have to answer some of these big questions that people have.

I mean, look at the Millennial and Gen Z. They have questions about the environment. They have questions about sexuality and gender and marriage and all these things. We need to show them how Scripture speaks to these things and actually provides a better solution than what the world offers.

Instead of just discounting them and calling them stupid, you know, we need to answer them. You do such a great job at your events when you have banter back and forth with that, you know, doing that specifically. So then there's the other part of this. Yes. Which is, there's the pastor that says don't get involved. But then there's also the pastor like this, the false white gospel, where they say we must reject Christian nationalism. Yes.

How should we think about that term? So I was really hoping that my take on Christian nationalism would have taken over the nation. Well then let's do it.

This is the time. So look, I think that the term Christian nationalist, look, I know that there are people that have embraced it and they've said, you know, if that's what you want to call me, then that's what I am. And yeah, I want God to take over the country and everything else. And I understand that.

And I understand the case for that. But I don't think that we need other monikers for being Christians other than Christian disciple, believer. I'm okay with conservative Christian because we have so many that are not conservative Christians that or biblical Christian, you know? It's like a denomination. Yes.

You have to kind of say that. But this idea that there is a false white gospel, I mean, this is straight out, James Cone could have written this book today, right? It's all, it's just a regurgitation of that. It is that we have to kill the white Jesus. We have to, you know, do this, that this is, it's the oppressor versus oppressed Marxist framework, except for instead of, you know, proletariat versus, you know, bourgeoisie, it is now the white theology versus, you know, you know, black Christian, you know, or this black gospel or non, you know, white gospel. And look, when you look at Christianity, Christianity started in diversity. How many, Augustine, first of all, like from Northern Africa, I mean, probably the most influential person outside of New Testament thinkers. Yes. And this is, this is, I mean, how much did he write and shape what we know of, of the church and Christianity today of being able to interpret a lot of, you know, these New Testament scriptures? And, and he was somebody, he was a person of color. Yes. You know, and so much of, so many of early Christian thinkers were people of color from different parts of the world. The gospel has never been a white gospel and nobody's preaching a white gospel, maybe some, you know, backwoods KKK group or somebody someplace.

I haven't met him, but I haven't met him yet. Right. Exactly. And so, you know, there is not, there, this is a straw man argument that Wallace is using here.

It's completely ridiculous. I think that Christian Nash, the true Christian nationalist, and this was my take, the true Christian nationalists are the Christian left because there is no difference right now between say, you know, thinkers like Brandon Robertson, the kind of TikTok progressive, you know, LGBT preacher and the Biden administration's view on, on gender, sexuality, open border socialism. They have identical doctrines and dogmas from state and church on the progressive church. They have truly bowed the knee to the state and they are, they are the true Christian nationalists.

I think now I understand that that term is as all sorts of different definitions for people. But I think if you look at historically what happened in Germany, who were the Christian nationalists? It was the progressive church. It was, it was not the believing church that Bonhoeffer and others were part of. It was, it was the, the, the Nazified German church that bowed the knee to the Third Reich. That's exactly what we're seeing happen right now today. And I'm not saying that they're all Nazis, but I'm saying that they are bowing their knee to it, to a false agenda of the state.

And they have left Christian doctrine, you know, at the door of the church. Having, having traveled the country and been to a lot of churches, you're going, you've spoken one in Mesa last night? Yeah, I was in Mesa last night. I didn't speak, but it was, it was special service.

We were there as special guests. So yeah. Are you, are you optimistic? I am optimistic. I'm always optimistic, Charlie.

Like, I don't know. It's just, it's how I'm wired, but optimism doesn't mean stick your head in the sand. It means we've got a lot of work to do and I'm willing to do the work. I'm willing to, you know, put in time and have the conversations with people. This is why I write. This is why I, this is why I work, you know, as hard as we do. My wife and I, we don't have children. We, we've, we've, we've had, you know, some challenges in that area and we've dedicated our lives to the sharing of the gospel. This is something that we're both involved in.

And she's, you know, here with me in the studio, as you know, and, and you know, this is, this is our life's mission, our life's calling. And, and is the church always going to thrive in America? I don't know. It faltered in, in Europe. We see these, these monuments that we call churches and cathedrals in Europe that are beautiful, but they're a reminder of a church, a place where the church was once alive and now it's dead.

And I'm afraid that if it happens here, there's not going to be any beautiful buildings left to even know it. Was that a bowling alley? Was it a strip club? I don't know. It might've been a church.

I don't know. There, there's nothing distinctive about the church here in America if we don't carry the gospel first and foremost. The book is Woke Jesus. You also have the Christian Left, right? I have that one at home too. Yes. So, and I know someone who really enjoyed it that I enjoyed it too, but it's been a while since I've flipped through that.

Email us freedom at charliekirk.com. You're also coming down to our Believer's Summit, is that right? Yeah, in July. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that.

So that's late July. We're going to really be ramping up promotion for that in late July, where we have Lucas Miles and really big speakers. It's our Believer's Summit. It is, the theme is Here I Am, Haneni, which is said seven times throughout the Old Testament scriptures, always during a time of choosing and binding of Isaac and the call of Samuel and the call of Moses.

So that is going to be the theme of our event in Florida. Lucas, thank you so much. God bless you, man. And yeah, anything else you want to plug?

20 seconds? Congrats on the new baby. Oh, thank you.

Praise God that... Check out American Pastor Project. If your pastor hasn't signed it yet, ask them why they have it, because you might be in a woke church. Use it as a great litmus test, americanpastorproject.org. Great, thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening, and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.