A Hung Trump Jury?

Hey everybody, welcome to The Charlie Kirk Show. We break down the disastrous, the shocking, the aha moment that spun the political commentary world on its head yesterday when Michael Cohen was called out for the liar that he is in the cross-examination at the Trump Hush Money trial, as they call it, in New York. Why this is such a bomb show, what it means and why it matters. We also welcome Kurt Schlichter to the show, who's a lawyer who tells us just exactly what a clown show this all is. And then, of course, because it's mandatory, we had to play the clips of the AOC versus Crockett versus MTG brawl in Congress yesterday. It's quite the show.

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Register now at tpaction.com slash peoples. Yesterday was terrible for Michael Cohen. Absolutely disastrous. The Daily Mail, I think, summed it up the best. Michael Cohen is torn to shreds by the fact that Michael Cohen is torn to shreds by Trump's attorneys in blistering cross-examination over Stormy Daniels' hush money payments. This is a train wreck. This was an aha moment.

And I just love the way that the Daily Mail, Rob Crilley, over at the Daily Mail puts it. It said, it created an aha moment just as the case barrels towards its conclusion. The sort of pin drop shock common to courtroom TV dramas, but rare in real life.

So, what exactly happened? The lead up to this was pretty remarkable. So, you have to remember, on direct, Cohen was very rehearsed. We even have, you know, rep Dan Goldman saying he rehearsed with him.

I'm assuming he spent hours and hours and hours with the prosecution. Everything he said seemed rote. It seemed rehearsed.

It seemed canned. And then, on day one of cross-examination, I heard from some reporters in the room, a little underwhelming. Now, some of the Trump criticisms of his lawyers, Todd Blanch specifically, is that he hasn't been aggressive enough. So, I'm sure they went to a room, they put together their plan, and man, did that happen. Their plan and man, did they execute it. Rarely will you ever see such broad sweeping agreement that something went so well for Donald Trump. And we're talking from CNN. We're talking to MSNBC.

MSNBC called it a moment of real triumph for the Trump team. Anderson Cooper looked shocked. As a matter of fact, let's go ahead and play that clip because, you know, it was a shocking moment. I'm gonna pull that clip up in just one second. This was a real moment where the case really could hinge.

It could be determined on this one moment. And I'm gonna get to exactly, but I want to play this Anderson Cooper clip here. 186.

Let's go ahead and play 186. You know, on a cross-examination, lawyers want to kind of put the witness in a, you know, build a box around the witness and then slam it shut. That's what Todd Blanche did to Michael Cohen. It was an extraordinary cross-examination by Todd Blanche and, you know, Michael Cohen's, throughout the day, Michael Cohen, when cornered in, when he found himself in a corner, he does have a pattern of suddenly not understanding the question that's being asked or seemingly kind of, I mean, one could say buying time to try to figure out what, how he wants to answer. Michael Cohen was cornered in what appeared to be a lie, I think, to many in the room. So caught in a lie.

What is the lie? Michael Cohen said that he, three days earlier, he had testified that he had made a phone call to Trump confirming that the payment to Stormy Daniels had been made. It was very, very, like I said, rehearsal. He looked confident.

He looked like it was a really bad day for the Trump campaign. But it turns out Todd Blanche brings out the records and said, you're lying. He said it was actually about a 14-year-old crank caller and you called Trump's security guard to get advice on how to deal with this kid, a 14-year-old. So not only are you a scumbag that is a convicted liar, you're not only a scumbag that records your clients, in this case, Donald Trump, this bombshell recording that didn't actually do anything. It wasn't a bombshell at all.

But you're a scumbag who's going after a 14-year-old crank caller. It was a really powerful moment. And so if you were in the courtroom, and so yesterday, I saw this tweet from Eric Trump and just said, wow, with a bunch of fire emojis.

And so I was with the team. I was like, what is this about? What is this about? Well, it turns out Eric Trump was sitting there and saw the moment.

And it's almost hard to, I think, put into words. I spoke to some of the people that were inside the courtroom yesterday. And they said, and I think Anderson Cooper alluded to that, he kind of does this, Cohen does this thing where he tries to buy time and give himself a little space to kind of come up with his answer. It was so telling based on his body language and his reaction, when Blanche cornered him with this, when he shut the door on him, that you could just feel the air go out of the room.

Everybody said it was electric. It was so clear that Cohen, the famed perjurer and convicted liar, got caught with another one. So what does this mean for the rest of the trial?

So are any of the other things that Michael Cohen has alluded to and alleged in this trial? Is that going to hold up? Well, I don't know. I say, I think so.

Play cut one 90. Okay, ready? Thank you for waiting your turn. Now.

Recoverable for the prosecution. No. Can I stop there?

Do you want me to keep going? You can elaborate it one job to do, and he couldn't do it on something so simple. Tell us about a conversation.

And the worst part of it is on direct. He sounded so convincing. He sounded so smooth, so good. It was such a good date for the prosecution describes the conversation and then completely shoots the pooch where it looks like that conversation. Absolutely. Actually never happened. Done. Done. This is CNN, folks. This is CNN. Let's, let's play another one. Let's go to MSNBC.

A moment of real triumph for the Trump Trump team 200. So about an hour ago, Katie Tur came out and we were asking about sort of the mood and the tenor. And she said it was calm, quiet, almost serene. And I said, you know, we're kind of looking for that John Grisham moment. And she said, we have not had that. And she texted me just five minutes ago, maybe. And she said, we just had your Grisham moment.

I'm eating my hat. This is a moment of real triumph for Todd Blanche. You could even hear it in his voice. He is not a person to get excitable very easily.

Not excitable release. And again, this has been a point of contention with president Trump. Trump likes his lawyers like attack dogs. So this prankster, this prank caller, this crank caller, 14 year old, this guy had been harassing Cohen, apparently, this 14 year old, right, right in that October 2016 time period. And on one occasion, he forgot to hide their caller ID. So Cohen told him that he would have to explain themselves to the Secret Service being a tough guy.

The caller responded by saying he was only 14 years old. Cohen then messaged Trump's body man, Keith Schiller, shortly before 8pm on October 24, to ask who he could talk to about the prankster and how to handle the matter. According to the messages read aloud in court, call logs showed that Cohen made a call at 802 that lasted only 96 seconds, which means he could not have been calling about Daniels and the crank caller. So that's what Blanche said. That was a lie because you were actually talking to Mr. Schiller about you were getting harassing calls from a 14 year old. He said in the most dramatic moment of the case so far, Cohen, who has adopted a meek hang dog air throughout protested, he said Daniels update was only brief. And Todd Blanche goes, that is a lie. You can admit it. And that's the moment I think the transcript doesn't read as dramatic as that moment again, in the in the courtroom when the air went out of the room for Michael Cohen and the prosecution.

It was a absolute train wreck. That Grisha moment, as MSNBC put it. So here here's here's why this is important. We all know this case is a sham. But again, normal people in Main Street America need to get it through their heads.

And so when you have this many people saying the same thing that Michael Cohen's a liar and he got caught out in court, that starts to filter on down. Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here. What an unbelievable start to 2024. We had last month saving babies with preborn by providing ultrasounds. And we're doing again this year we did last year. We're going to stand for life because remaining silent in the face of the most radically pro death administration is not an option. As Sir Edmund Burke said, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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Click on the preborn banner. They say, do you know why you were reaching out to Mr. Schiller in the evening of October 24, 2016? Yes. Why? Because I needed to speak to Mr. Trump and I knew that Keith Schiller was with him. Why did you need to speak to Mr. Trump at that point? To discuss Stormy Daniels. Why did you call him to discuss Stormy Daniels? Today, at a minimum, he called Schiller in order to discuss the 14 year old. Within 30 seconds of the phone call ending, he then, Michael Cohen, texts Schiller the phone number for the 14 year old. The phone call was about the 14 year old at a minimum.

Right. I mean, there was an immediate follow up on that topic. So to answer the question, why did you call Schiller answer, because of a 14 year old?

It's because of a 14 year old. So, Michael Cohen, the convicted perjurer, is getting outed for the wrath that he is, which begs the question, why? Why would the prosecution, why would this Democrat lawfare assault put so much weight onto somebody like Cohen? Everybody described Michael Cohen as their star witness.

The star witness. Well, John Yoo, who's been on this show, asked that same question, play cut 198. So I think if you're Trump, you leave them with this message at the end of Cohen's testimony, which is, did we cross the Rubicon? Did we go after a former president for the first time in the history of this Republican? Two hundred and thirty five years for this guy, for this kind of witness, for these kinds of charges.

The other thing I would say is you could you I think there's a good chance that this judge would have to dismiss these charges as not proven, even before you put on a defense. Now, I think that's a little bit wishful thinking. You would assume you're dealing with a judge that would be nonpartisan, unbiased.

I don't think that's what we're dealing with, unfortunately, in New York. But let's just look at this. This is so, you know, yesterday was a very important day for this trial. And why is it an important day?

It's an important day for the country. Because at some level, this case is about more than whether or not one political party in this country can summon a bunch of jurors and summon a bunch of prosecutors and judges and get them to try and throw the leading candidate for president into jail. It's about more than that, because that's obviously what they wanted to do.

They wanted to take him off the chessboard. It's about the character of this country. It's about how much virtue is left in the population that makes up the citizenry of this great country. Are we going to fall for it? Are we going to accept these assaults on our republic?

Is it going to affect polling? Are people going to say, you know what, yeah, he's a convicted criminal, a convicted felon, Donald Trump? Or is the American people, are they strong enough to look at this? Are they wise enough? Do they have enough virtue left in them to look at this as the blatant assault on our democracy and our rules and norms and traditions that it is? And rejecting this and reject the party that is perpetrating these assaults on our republic? That is a really important question that is still an open question. But as these clips come out, as you see it from top to bottom, from Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, everybody saying the same thing, that this was a big bombshell moment for the defense, for the Trump campaign.

That is going to help get the normies, the people that aren't paying such close attention, invested in the outcome of this case in a way that they need to be. And we have a real shot. This is an existential threat to our republic and to the future of this country. The next five months are critically important because we're asking a question, will we be taken hostage by a movement that seeks to destroy the foundations of the country or will we fight back?

Will we be smart enough, wise enough, good enough? And in the words of John Yoo, did we really cross the Rubicon for this guy? Look at this. The defense is showing in court, in one podcast statement, Cohen says, I truly effing hope that this man ends up in prison. And he said that about Trump. In another clip that they showed to the jury, Michael Clohan makes clear that he would enjoy Trump's downfall. It won't bring back the year that I lost or the damage done to my family, but revenge is a dish best served cold. Cohen could be heard to say, you better believe that I want this man to go down. Consider what they did.

And they rested it all on the shoulders of this clown. Hey guys, prepare to witness a journey of resilience, courage and redemption in Angel Studios' upcoming new film, Sight, hitting theaters May 24th. I had a chance to watch it and it's such an extraordinary true story that captures your heart and leaves your spirit inspired. It's everything awe-inspiring that you'd expect from Angel Studios and you can buy your tickets now at angel.com slash Charlie. This film stars Academy Award nominee Greg Kinnear and Terry Chen and follows Dr. Ming Wang's epic quest from poverty-stricken beginnings in communist China to become a pioneering eye surgeon in America. You'll watch him face the challenge of restoring the sight of a blind orphan that forces him to confront his dark past of violence and communism that he experienced in China. This Memorial Day weekend, find out if the ghosts of Dr. Wang's past shatter his sanity or propel him to accomplish the impossible for a child in need. Mark your calendars for March 24th and get your tickets today at angel.com slash Charlie.

That's angel.com slash Charlie. Kurt Schlichter, who's a senior columnist for townhall.com as well as a brilliant legal mind and a talented lawyer in his own right. Kurt, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Kurt, so you've had, I'm assuming, a little time to digest the Cohen train wreck yesterday on Cross by Todd Blanche. Just to sum it up for us, you are a lawyer, I am not. Tell us, how bad was that moment?

And really, there was multiple moments, but how bad was yesterday? Well, let's explain first what's going on. Cross-examination, the key to our justice system, Andrew. The ability to take a witness and to pick apart his or her or theirs story and, you know, test whether it's true or false or a little of both.

And this is, this is something that is hundreds and hundreds of years old. If you've ever seen A Man for All Seasons, the movie about Thomas Moore, where he cross examines the Rick of Grit, the guy who's lying about him, you know, trying to get him executed. Up to, you know, Al Pacino and Justice for All and all those.

And of course, you can't handle the truth. Cross-examination is just, it is central to the truth, discovery, purpose of our justice system. And I gotta tell you, when you are doing a cross, and I'm a trial lawyer, I do trials, about 30 years, there are few things as much fun as a good cross with your clothes on. So, now, you know, when you, look, first of all, it is a, the whole trial is a scam and a disgrace. But it is an utter disgrace that an agency of any level of an American government, this time the state of New York, would bring in a witness who is a known perjurer, a known liar, a convicted perjurer, I mean, the guy's a convict, and put him up as their key witness against a guy 50% or so of Americans want to see as their next president.

I mean, Jim did his right. But, you know, the cross-examination of Michael Cohen, let's just say it's not one of the most technically difficult ones out there. He's a liar.

He's a scammer. What they're trying to do is establish to the jury. And look, I think the jury is probably going to convict him because they're all hopelessly biased. So, they're not really speaking to the jury. They're speaking to America. And when they get, when Todd Lax gets up and just begins boxing in Cohen, and you can just see him setting it up, Mr. Cohen, don't you agree with this? Isn't this true?

Let's go through your personal resume of crimes and lies. He's just setting it, and he's tightening it. So, Cohen can't shift out of it. And eventually, you know, the most famous exchange, of course, was the 14-year-old prank-caller call where Cohen said, well, I called Trump, and Trump agreed to this giant Stormy Daniels conspiracy, which isn't a conspiracy and isn't against the law. But let's put that aside. A 96-second call, and Blanche was able to get him to, you know, recommit to, yeah, that was all about Trump.

And then he starts dropping in other evidence like text that shows it was really about a 14-year-old prank-caller. And, you know, when that's going on, the room gets quiet. When you're doing the cross, there's nothing but you and the guy on the stand that you're literally eviscerating. The key to a great cross is to know all your facts and have them at hand. If you have to put up an exhibit, you need to have, you know, your second chair, a junior lawyer, a paralegal, whatever, ready and totally coordinated with you, you know, put up exhibit X.

Now, Mr. Witness, that's your signature on exhibit X. Exhibit X says it was Tuesday when this happened. Your testimony was it was Wednesday. Which one is the lie? Or are they both lies? You know, and it's a beautiful thing because, you know, it's very hard to get a good cross, but for someone who's not lying. Now, you can bring out good facts, but you don't completely devastate their credibility if there's not one.

It's very hard to turn someone who's not lying into a liar. Was this devastating? Was this completely devastating?

I mean, does this, I mean, how bad is the scale one to ten? In a real case, a legal case, which this is not, it's not just talking times Hiroshima, you know, times the Star Wars sequels in the level of disaster. I mean, it's, but this isn't a normal case. He's not really talking to the jury. Now, there's a small chance he might get somebody to hang.

There's no chance he'll get an acquittal in my view, and I've been wrong before. But what he's really doing is he's cross-examining for America to say, this is what the Democrats have put up. This is the lie. And I think in that, in that context, it absolutely does.

So I just got to pause for one second. So it's like Jar Jar being bad. Like that's how bad this was. Only five-year-olds like it, basically. Well, let me put it this way. Jar Jar, you so suck. We went there.

We did it. I will tell you, I will tell you there is one juror and I actually had this conversation a couple of times yesterday and the day before with various people that are actually inside the courtroom. One journalist in particular I was speaking with said he can figure out who the true social guy is. So there's one juror that gets their news from true social which obviously is Trump's social media network. And he says he can pick him out. He's 90% sure he knows which one.

And there's one that gets their mail from the Daily Mail. Reading the jury key leads is a classic thing, you know, as soon as you break for lunch. What did juror number six do?

Well, he was kind of looking at the ceiling during your examination and the doctor. No, God knows he's not engaged. How about juror number four? Well, you know, she's got two kids in the army. You know, she cooks for a living. She seems very interested.

Maybe she'll be a good conservative juror. I don't know. You know, yeah, I mean, we do that all the time.

And I don't know. And, you know, sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. But I'll tell you, you know, I've had experiences in cases. Fortunately, it wasn't me in this one. I had a juror burst into laughter at my opponent, you know, when he said so.

I mean, burst into laughter, just like, oh, God. You know, but I've had jurors roll their eye. You know, I had a juror look at me on one of the few cases I did not prevail in.

And he just shook his head. And I was like, OK, well, I'm done. I remember my first trial. I was the second chair, very senior lawyer. And we thought we're going to do well. And a very pretty juror who'd been kind of smiling at me throughout because I was younger then, she wouldn't meet my gaze. And my boss said, yep, we've lost.

And we did lose. We won on appeal. But, you know, trying to read juries is, you know, that's what lawyers do. That's just the thing.

But again, I mean, this isn't a real legal case like other ones, because if it wasn't Donald Trump, if it was Donald Trump, and the case never would have been filed, it'd be the jurors who'd be sitting there going, why are we here? Correct. So you make a good point. And I think it is the bigger point.

I made this point earlier in the hour as well. This is actually a case for the American public. I think the bigger question with all of this lawfare assault on Donald Trump is, are we a nation that can see a brazen politicization of our institutions and reject it?

Or will the party that is doing the lawfare attack, will they be rewarded for it? Right. So I actually think this is a larger existential civilizational defining question.

These are a civilizational defining five months. But just let's play out the scenarios. If I'm right, which, you know, I'm going to take, I'm going to get a bet with somebody on this, I think this is going to be a hung jury. What would that mean to the Democrats' lawfare assault on Donald Trump if the one jurisdiction in which they just have a completely stacked deck, New York City and DC, if they are not able to be successful in attaching convicted felon to the front of Donald Trump's intro?

Look, I try and be objective. And objectively, it is devastating for the Democrats if they get hung. Just devastating. If he gets acquitted, I mean, holy cow, but I don't think it's that. But if he gets hung jury, yeah, it's devastating because Donald Trump's going to walk out and say, yeah, you know, they brought out this perjurer and a bunch of Democrats on the jury believed it. Because, you know, the jurors, the activists, the lonely wine women of the jury, horrible liberal wine women, are immediately going to go on MSNBC and be interviewed about this. We're going to know exactly who they are, right? Well, there are two lawyers on the jury. There's two lawyers on the jury. You've got a Daily Mail reader.

You've got a Truth Social. I'm telling you, I don't think they're sequestered, by the way. They're seeing that the clips from yesterday were, I played a lot of them already. They're calling this a moment of triumph. They're calling it an absolute shredding of Michael Cohen on the stand.

Well, Trump's impeachment syndrome is strong, but go ahead. Well, look, Anderson Cooper and Eli Honig, who are no friends of Trump and who I don't agree with very often, they were just, you know, essentially shell-shocked at how bad Cohen was. Now, I wasn't sitting in the courtroom. I'll take their word for it.

He must have done badly. Don't put too much hope in the lawyers, okay, after being a lawyer for 30 years. You know, I mean, remember, look, every case I'm in, I disagree completely with the other lawyer. So, if some lawyer comes and says, well, lawyers agree. Well, you don't agree.

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Satannow.com. Kurt, okay, I have a very complex set of emotions behind this clip. Well, it's a series of clips.

I don't know how many we're going to get to here. So for our audience's sake, MTG basically, you know, tells Rep Crockett, who's a real piece of work, that she's obviously not able to read what's in front of her because, and they were arguing about Merrick Garland, because she has fake eyelashes. And then all hell breaks loose. Then AOC gets involved, starts calling her baby girl. And MTG tells the AOC she isn't that intelligent. That's why she won't debate her. I mean, this thing, on the one hand, I love MTG for the fight she has. She sometimes, I sometimes hold back some of my other feelings, but I really do appreciate MTG's kind of spunkiness here. But I, is this really what it's come to, Kurt?

Is this really what the people's house, the house, I mean, listen, we've got nothing on the UK. I get it. But, okay, let me just play the clip, then I'm going to get your reaction. And there's a series of clips. There's a series of clips. It's a long exchange.

192. I'd like to know if any of the Democrats on this committee are employing judge MarShawn's daughter. Is she a porn star? Do you know what we're here for? You know, we're here. I don't think you know what you're here for.

Well, you don't want us talking about- I think your fake eyelashes are messing up. No, ain't nothing. Hold on, hold on. Order. Mr. Chairman. Okay, Kurt, your first reaction. My first reaction is always, what are the rules? You know, it's a skullum place of decorum and respect. Because I haven't seen that from Crockett or Ocasio-Cortez. Now I'm supposed to expect it from NPG.

Now I know what I prefer. I prefer, you know, the founding fathers deliberating about great issues of national importance, of natural law, and the place of man and God and government. But that's not what we've got, Andrew. What we've got is essentially, I don't know, it looked like a cat fight to me. You know, when everybody agrees that we want to change the rules back, then I'm all for it. Until then, you know, if people want to get into brawls, that's fine.

All right, Kurt, we got to keep playing the clips. It's mandatory. 193. I do have a point of order. And I would like to move to take down Miss Green's words. That is absolutely unacceptable.

How dare you attack the physical appearance of another person. Move her words down. Oh, girl, baby, girl.

Oh, really? Don't even play with me. Baby, girl, I don't think so. We are going to move and we're going to take your words down.

I second that motion. Miss Green agrees to strike her words. I believe she's apologizing. No, no, no. I'm not apologizing. I am not apologizing.

Why don't you debate me? Okay, Kurt, then I'm just gonna get to the to the to the end here. This is a congressman Jasmine Crockett ends this whole exchange when Anna Paulina Luna is telling her just calm down, calm down. I can't hear you. You're shouting. She goes, y'all talk noise. And then you can't take it. Because if I come and talk about her, y'all gonna have a problem. That's, that's how it ended.

Well, you know, I believe I believe I read something like that in the Federalist Papers. You know, I mean, they sound like a bunch of, you know, they sound like a bunch of guys on Drag Race arguing with each other on Bravo Channel. It's just so tacky.

I mean, AOC is a brain dead moron. Crockett's just ridiculous. My favorite part was when they told them to calm down, because as you and I both know, women love it when you tell them to calm down. Women love that. Well, at least it was another woman. The best part about this. Imagine being Comer who's up there just like, he's just like, no. Oh, God.

Oh, it's okay. I will just say this. At least, you know, they're showing some fight. And yeah, I wish I wish we had the decorum and the big ideas and the natural on this. You know, but at the end of the day, I look at Jasmine Crockett.

She's literally trying to destroy our country if you boil it down. It is what it is. Kurt, thank you as always for your time. Excellent as always.

We'll see you next time. Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Please consider joining members.charliekirk.com. That's members.charliekirk.com and become a paying subscriber to the show. It means the world to us.

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