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Was MLK a Good Christian? A Discussion and Debate with Bishop Aubrey Shines

The Charlie Kirk Show / Charlie Kirk
The Truth Network Radio
March 14, 2024 5:00 am

Was MLK a Good Christian? A Discussion and Debate with Bishop Aubrey Shines

The Charlie Kirk Show / Charlie Kirk

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March 14, 2024 5:00 am

Was MLK a great Christian leader, or a Marxist and a false prophet? Charlie created a storm of debate two months ago when he offered a critical take on America's single most-beloved figure, and Bishop Aubrey Shines is one of those who reached out to offer an alternative take. Bishop Shines and Charlie have a discussion about the  forces that draw people toward leftism, the sins of great men in the Bible, and whether it's appropriate to consider MLK a Christian saint.

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Hey everybody, my conversation with Bishop Aubrey Shines. We talk about black history, MLK.

We also talk about Donald Trump and eight questions people ask about race. Email us as always, freedom at Get involved with Turning Point USA at This is

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Go to Hey everybody, welcome to this episode of The Charlie Kirk Show. With us is a new but good friend, Bishop Aubrey Shines. Bishop, welcome. Fantastic being here, Charlie.

Looking forward to this dialogue. Really am. So, we did a segment on Martin Luther King. Okay. And it's got a lot of attention. And you were one of the few people that were so loving and truthful to call me up and say, Charlie, let's meet.

Yeah. And we had a great meeting about that, about many things, and I want to dive right into it. But first, why don't you introduce yourself, kind of the work you do, but I wanted to make sure we frame the conversation. And this is always a difficult part, isn't it? When someone says, hey, tell us what do you do? We all have, those of us that- Oh, I hate it. I know, don't you?

Because you feel like, is this going to sound like some self-grandizement type of moment? Am I boasting a building? So, I'm fortunate, Charlie. I'm able to shepherd over 21 different ethnic groups every single Sunday in the beautiful city of Tampa.

Very diverse group, very conservative group. Outside of that, maybe some of your viewers recognize I was, and I hate saying this part because again, it sounds like I'm patting myself, like I'm having some sort of ego maniacal moment here, but I was the only clergy ever that Hillary Clinton put in her book by name as to the reason she lost her election. I have that honor.

So, I'm not sure where else to go with that. I worked within the Trump campaign going from state to state speaking. And I didn't know that I was a white racist until I started doing that. I had no idea about it and that's no reflection on my Jewish mom, but I just didn't know that I was a racist. You're a white supremacist black preacher.

I know, I know. And so, I'm not big on the black and white thing. I see myself as a Christian just with a different ethnicity than some. I have a good mix of both black and Jew that's there.

So, I don't know. I think there's too much made of the whole quote, ethnic breakdown. I think it's good. I think it's something that all of us should address. I don't believe in multiple races.

I believe there's only one human race and I think God made that race. I think it's pretty clear about that. So, those are some of the things we do. Outside of every week, I am the voice of America Shines on Real America's Voice.

I've seen it on Real America. That's where some people might recognize you. Yeah, hopefully.

Hopefully not on the cops most wanted list or anything like that. I've not had that distinction, so I'm not interested in that. So, those are some of the things that we do. So, Bishop, I want to thank you for being here. This is just going to be really great for me and for the audience because when we first talked on the phone, I obviously knew of you and watched your program. And within the first five minutes, you said, you know, I am the one clergy who Hillary Clinton blamed. I said, I like this guy.

So, it made me take everything you said even more seriously. Yeah, sure. Sure. And so, you know, you said, hey, Charlie, let's meet. And we had this great meeting.

I thought it was really wonderful. And just so everyone knows, you can go back and listen to the Martin Luther King episode. Happy to do that, but no reason to rehash that. But I think, you know, Bishop, here's the best way I could frame it.

Tell me what I missed. And I don't mean that as a gotcha. No, no, no, no. And I don't take it at that. I think we're all guilty of this.

Let me start here. I think often all of us speak from some cutout that we've learned somewhere. I think all of us, if we're intellectually honest, I think we go back over our lives and we realize, wait a minute, I meant exactly what I said, but maybe I should have considered the following. Maybe this part of this speech or this line was true, but was at all that there was to it. And that's when I heard what you said. It wasn't a matter of gotcha kind of a moment.

I did wonder, does Charlie know the following? And I think that's where our dialogue began. And I think, and I want to say this, not just to you because I have, but I want to make sure that your audience get it. And especially those that hate you, because it's hard for me to imagine that people look at us and they actually hate what we're doing. It's always a gotcha moment, especially with those who hate Christianity, those who hate a conservative movement. Oh my God, which in my opinion, Charlie goes hand in hand. So I looked at the MLK thing and let's just kind of segment and let's kind of break some of this down here.

Did King ever have a left leaning history? Let's deal with that. And I ask you this, and I often have done this when I've done lectures before, let's play a game. And to the audience, I want you to just consider, because all of us are right now, we're playing what's called Monday morning quarterback.

That's what we're really doing. But let's put ourselves, let's make all of us with the same skin reflection as King. Let's go back in the 50s. Let's go to the 40s. Let's go to the 60s. King was hurting as most blacks were.

I'm not talking just economically. Here he believed in a system that was blind. It should have been as related to the law.

Here this great statue says, hey, come in. I'm not going to see you as anything other than we're going to base this great republic on just pure laws. Blacks are following the laws, but they're not the recipient of those laws. So I ask your audience to consider this, not from a 2024 perspective, but let's go back to the 50s. Make yourself black just for the sake of argument. If the very constitution that you know is proper and right and beautiful, but it's not working for you, why wouldn't any of us consider another way out? After all, it's not working. And this was what I agreed with and still do. And if I could say it differently, it's that if you live under permanent racial segregation, which is evil, it can create a sense of bitterness. Of course.

And it can lead you to, dare I say something, let's say Diet Marxist ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Even the US military used satellite phones and you'll never get an advertisement from any other company because everything you do with the satellite phone will be 100% private in America. This year, only 5% of the island and Maui burn, but 95% of the island lost its power and cell service. Even the 911 emergency service was down because they had no access to satellite communication backup. Be ready, prepare your family with power and communication.

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Of course. I had to look at my own life. I was raised in a very successful when my dad was living very successful business home.

I'll never forget that. And I think I may have shared this story with you. I remember coming home one day from high school, had a great history teacher, and she was teaching things that my dad was really good at teaching, uh, facts and life and history and business and all those kinds of things.

But she exposed me to some of the more horrible things that were happening in the nation. I went to my dad now at this point, my dad, I didn't know my dad was of course going to die. And he had been sick and he was there in his room and he's lying there. And I said, dad, I need to ask you some questions. And I won't bore the audience with some of those questions, but I challenged him. I said, dad, are the following things true? And I shared with him what my high school teacher shared with me about some of the horrendous things that were happening. Again, I had a overview of some of the horrible, horrific things that had happened in our nation and et cetera, et cetera.

But my dad was so successful. I, in my mind, I thought either he didn't know this and my real question to him would have been, dad, how could you have not known this? When I shared with him what my teacher said, here was his, I mean, I'll never forget this. He said, yeah, those things Aubrey happened and it shocked me. It was like, I was stuck.

Like, wait a minute, they happen? And so my next question to him, dad, why didn't you say anything to us? He said, because I never train you boys to go by what someone says and or calls you.

He says, with God, you can do all things with hard work. And it changed me. He said, I said, but dad, why weren't you involved in this facet of it? He said, because I believe that God was bigger than this nation. And I got in with a Christian view. I worked hard and I became this successful. So I saw a dad who was in church. I saw a father who never used ever in my presence, never a racial epithet. Here was a guy that had come out of the Jim Crow Democratic controlled South, moved to Chicago, incredibly successful. My dad's name to this day is in the annals of some business historical documents here. He was the first guy to do several things as relates to certain corporations.

So I didn't believe the hype. So again, I go back to the MLK piece. Why did my dad become bitter? I don't know. Maybe he had a moment, Charlie. I really have no idea, but I know what he projected. He projected that there was nothing impossible to do as it relates to whatever it is you're endeavoring, if you follow certain templates in your life, that number one being God, being pro-family, and those were the results of it.

Go back to MLK. I could see how King would be upset. I think all of us would have been, and I could see why he would have been disillusioned. But what I shared with you was that was a very early part of his life. Again, I challenged you, and I think the audience should know this, I said, Charlie, if we use that metric, if those who are coming against you right now that are saying, Charlie, he's a racist, simply because you ask a question, which is crazy in my opinion. I mean, you were so sweet the way you handled this.

Well, you're very kind. The reality of it is, I look at things like that, and I think just for a moment, wait a minute, King had every right to feel the way that he was feeling. After all, and I said this to you, Charlie, some of the same Christian institutions, I'm talking white, Baptist, Evangelicals, these institutions were anti-black. That's a fact.

It's not my opinion. They wouldn't allow the Martin Luther King types if they were black to be part of their seminaries. That's another fact. As a matter of fact, most of their congregation up until very recently was still very segregated, not in the sense that it's blacks only or whites only. And I'm not talking about because if you happen to live in a predominantly white area, well, why would you have a bunch of black people? They're no different if you're in a predominantly black area. Why is it insane to think that, oh, it's not fair because it's not 50%? Well, that's crazy if where you live dictates those demographics.

However, institutionally speaking, the Baptist and the white Evangelicals, they wouldn't even allow nor would they even believe in individuals getting married if they were of a different ethnic group. These were our Christian organizations during the time of King. Why wouldn't he feel a sense of maybe there's another way to do this. Maybe there's another system because we're doing it.

We're doing everything the system is telling us, but it's not working for us. I believe that's where you and I, I think in my opinion, and correct me publicly if I'm wrong, I think at that moment, I looked at you and you went, Bishop, I see that. Yeah, and I want to just kind of say it from my own perspective, which is there was a moment of King's life that we highlighted on the episode where he would be talking about redistributionism or reparations. You have said that's not a totality of his life's work, and I want to get into that, but you just kind of, as we're beginning here, because he kept on experiencing unjust, bitter racial segregation, it made the, let's just say the siren song of Marxism seem more attractive. And that I can totally resonate with because we're always asking the question, why do people gravitate towards socialistic Marxist ideas, at least in a moment in time. And the reason would be you feel as if the game is rigged against you. So let's just kind of take in the American example, certain college kids might think that they're Marxist, if they feel as if they can't own property or, you know, again, it's not the same thing, but that mentality, that is what kind of, let's just say, fosters that mentality.

And so when you said that, it was a very interesting clicking moment. And again, let's look at it historically. When Japanese Americans were singled out, there was some sort of correction publicly that had been made.

I have Jewish ancestry. They were singled out. There was some form of reparation that was made.

Now I want to make this just abundantly clear. I don't believe that anyone should receive anything that they didn't earn. I just, I believe it's unchristian. That would be like you committing a crime against me. I don't get you for it, but five generations later, someone comes and says to your great, great, great grandkids, you owe me. Well, that's absurd.

It's not biblical. Think about this. How do I charge you for something a hundred years later that you didn't do? And if we want to go further on the whole reparation thing, not you and I, but I'm just saying publicly speaking, shouldn't then, if we're honest, intellectually honest, then why don't blacks charge Kings to this day in Africa who sold them? See, there's this misnomer, a bunch of white guys, I don't know, out of Mississippi, Arkansas, got on their little paddle boats, went across the Atlantic and got over into Africa and rounded up 25 million black people.

That's stupid. It's not even history. It was black Kings selling other blacks that they had conquered.

They were selling them from everything from tobacco and a whole lot of other things, alcohol, beverages, various products that were sold and they would merchandise them. So if blacks are really interested in reparation, then go to Africa. Now I know I'm going to take a lot of feedback, but if we're going to be intellectually honest. I said that once I got so criticized.

Well, I say it all the time, but it's true. How can I charge you for something that you didn't do? And then let's go further, even with the reparation issue, if reparations are right, Charlie, then what do you do with the 3000 black men that owned other blacks here in the United States of America? Forget about Africa. Let's stay right here in America.

What do you do with them? What about the blacks that were never enslaved? I wasn't enslaved. My people weren't enslaved, even the black side of my people weren't enslaved. So why should they, why should we receive something from something we didn't do? Do we do that with any other ethnic group? What about Europeans that enslaved Europeans and Asians that enslaved Asians?

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Go to slash Charlie. Now what else do we do? Do we go back the 40,000 men that Frederick Douglass said, hey, pick up that flag. I'm talking the United States of America, not a BLM flag or LGBTQ flag.

He said, pick up the United States flag. We are part of this system and we're going to fight against those racist Democrats because that's who they were in the South. 40,000 black people die. Do those blacks get reparations?

If we're going to talk reparations, let's be intellectually honest. Why then shouldn't blacks sue the democratic party? After all, it was the democratic party that was formed to keep blacks. They were the ones that fought against the 13th, 14th, 15th amendment. Then blacks should be suing the democratic party. After all, they were the major proponents of, let's make sure this slavery continue.

So how far do we want to go down that rabbit hole? Yeah, I think that's super smart. And thank you for saying that because you have more license to say it than I do.

Because when I say stuff like that, I get criticized. As I will too, by the way. I want to make sure we continue on this though, to do this from every angle. When we sat down, I think it was important when you said, Charlie, yes, at times he was entertaining Marxist elements.

Very young. Yeah. So talk about the timeline. Can you educate our audience? So this is in the inception and I want your audience to understand, and I know that she's going to hear this. I am still a very close friend to the niece of Martin Luther King, which is Dr. Alveda King. Very pro-life girl, lover to death. She's almost a mother figure, even in the movement.

And she's yet ostracized, even by some of the family members, because she takes such a conservative position. Martin had these ideas at a very early age. He was just talking. These were languages that say, hey, what else do we do?

What else can we do? But now it's not what a person says, at least according to scripture. It's not just in our- By the fruits you will know. It's the fruits. So let's look at his fruits. He can say anything he wants.

But what did he do? He believed yet in this system. He talked about the inequality in the system and it was like a check that had been given, but didn't have the proper funds to cover the check.

Insufficient, yes. Absolutely. So were those things true? Absolutely, they were true. But we know for a fact, not by what he said over here or there, because if we use that, Charlie, as the template, we also have to be honest with Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln once said, and I can quote because I remember it. He said, for there is only one race that is superior and there's only another that's inferior.

Do we burn down Lincoln? Those were Lincoln's words. Lincoln said, hey, there's a superior race. And he says, and I ascribe it to those of us who are white. He said, there are inferior races. He says, and I ascribe it to those that are black. Did he mean that? Well, he said it, Bishop. He must've meant it.

Well, let's look at the fruit. He was also addressing a bunch of Southern Democrats that had he not appealed to their ignorance, he never could have gotten emancipation proclamation sign. As a politician, he had to say some things that, again, we're looking at it from a Monday morning quarterback position where some of the we're sitting on our couch game is over.

That's right. But put yourself in Abraham Lincoln's era. He had to say what he had to say to bring the nation together.

We were sorely divided. Yeah. And I think the Monday, I love the Monday, Monday morning quarterbacking thing. I think part of my, and you know, this, my heart was that, Hey, I'm not saying he's the worst person, but he has created, he's almost become the Saint light figure. And your contention is Charlie not, not relevant in the sense where it's like, Hey, here's what he, here's what he should be remembered for. So, yeah. And let me answer that first.

Sure. You know, I think sainthood is appropriate in this regard. Again, I'm speaking now from a Christian perspective.

I believe that God raises up whoever God wants to raise up. Anybody that wants to take a Pharisaical view and to say, well, here was some of his faults. Well, if we do that, we're going to have a problem with the entire Bible.

Why? Abraham had a ton of faults. Again, these are just facts. Abraham was willing to give up his wife, Sarah, to a King to be violated sexually, that he could preserve himself. He did take a strong position and say, Hey, that's my wife. You can go in and kill me if you want. Abraham said, Hey, wait a minute.

Ah, that's just my sister. Which part of that was true. But the fact of the matter is Abraham relinquished a position. Yet as Christians, he's still the father of our faith. Time won't even allow me to talk about the failures of David.

We only think about Bathsheba. But there were tons of other problems that David had. Yet God said, Hey, that's my boy. That's my guy. This is who I'm going to raise.

Go further. Look at King Cyrus. Cyrus was not a man that was even in covenant with God. But yet God said, this is who I, myself, I've selected this guy. And in selecting him, he was able to bring Israel back to a place that they began to practice Sabbath again and practices the feast again. Time won't even allow me to talk about Paul. Paul was an accessory to murder.

He forced Christians to blaspheme. Yet God said, this is my guy. This is who I'm going to raise up.

He's going to be one of the great, he is going to be the chief apostle forever. My own president, Trump, if we use this metric, none of us would vote for Trump based on some high moral standard, but he loves his country. And I don't need Trump to be my Bishop or my Pope or my priest.

I need him to be a man that would honor the values of this constitution and allow us to have the liberty and the freedom to express ourselves even in a religious way. But Trump has done all that. So I liken that even to King.

There is no such thing as a perfect life. Which one of us, Charlie, you, me, or anybody that's listening, how many times can we go back in our lives and go, man, I should have never said that or this. We all have moments like that. So did King have a moment where he talked about these issues?

I would say, I'll go further. If he didn't, I would be afraid of him because I would think this guy is too perfect. I can't relate to him. There's only one perfect individual that is Yeshua, Jesus. That's it.

That's it. Every disciple, they doubt it. They ran. They were cowards at times.

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Click on the Preborn banner. So when we did the episode, I received a ton of messages. 99% of the negative ones were just, you know, not worth reading because they were full, you know, insults. You were so sweet. One of the ones that I did appreciate, I want to ask you about that I found to be somewhat persuasive as they said, Charlie, without MLK, the quote unquote black liberation movement would have been far more violent, far more damaging to the country that MLK acts.

Do you, do you? I don't agree with that. And let me tell you why I don't agree with that. Because what they're doing right there without them saying it, they're pitting Malcolm X, Malik El Shabazz is Arabic term. They're saying that the country would have leaned that way.

It would have not leaned that way. Now, we're not talking about Malcolm, but I believe that a lot of what Malcolm did was good. You know, they paint him as this anti-Semitic guy.

He wasn't. Well, that's the other I want to ask you about. Well, I know one of Malcolm's to this day. I know his, one of his cousins, a young lady who, by the way, is a serious Christian. Her dad was a Christian. This is Malcolm's first cousin. These are people that I know.

These are Pentecostal people in the city of Chicago still existing. Malcolm came out of that. But again, when we allow the left to dictate our history, we're only going to get the sound bites they want us to hear. So do I believe that the country would have been ravaged by radicals? No.

Why? Let's look at it historically. Take Malcolm out.

Just take him out of the equation for a moment. I think it would have been a better time to burn down the whole system if you wanted to use that type of language back in the 20s and 30s. But what did we see? We saw great men and women going into the World War II theater. We, out of it, we had great guys from the Tuskegee Institute that flew planes.

And even though they were discriminated in a military uniform, they fought for the country, died for the country, yet they would come back and they'd be spat on. So if there was ever a time to burn it down, I think that would have been a good time. No, I don't believe that for one moment. Why?

I'll tell you why. The nation was founded on Christian principles. When you have a Christian principle, truth is always going to live out.

It doesn't mean that it doesn't have a process to get to, but it has to take time to get there. Any of us who have ever parented, trust me, you will look back and you'll think and rethink a thousand times, man, I should have said this or did that. Keep living, you'll always second guess yourself. So do we have any evidence that the country was going to burn down prior? No, I mean, even if you went as far as Marcus Garvey, who believed in separatism, who said, hey, let's go back to Africa. Well, what he didn't realize is that Africa was the same group of people that sold you in the first place. And if we're going to use that language, again, I got to go back to this, Charlie, then why isn't the black movements or the white liberal movements?

Why do they give Islam a pass? Islamics were the biggest purchasers of blacks. By the way, they still are. It's still happening right now in Libya. It's still going on.

It's still happening. Why don't we hear it? Because the legacy media don't want you to hear that. So what they'll do is they'll say that Charlie Kirk is a racist. Well, what makes Charlie racist?

I want to say to your audience, no one's paid me to say this. Charlie Kirk is not a racist. I wouldn't be sitting here. No, I take that back.

I probably would be sitting here, but I would be chewing his head off right now. Charlie, it's nothing racist about you. If you lose the ability, my friend, to ask questions, you're dead already.

Thank you. And that is not what makes us American and what's the pursuit of inquiry. So Aubrey, just kind of riff on this as we think about MLK at his best. Just how we should look at him and his life. Just make the best case for MLK. A serious Christian who had serious challenges as Moses and David and Paul and everybody else.

A lot of people don't know because history has done such a horrible job. You'll hear, well, if you listen to King's Last Speech at the Masonic Temple, it's a lie. It was not the Masonic Temple. It was at the Mason Temple, the Church of God in Christ in Memphis, Tennessee.

He was invited in by someone who I know personally who's deceased. He was a spiritual father to me. His name was Bishop Gilbert Earl Patterson. He was once the presider Bishop of the Church of God in Christ. That's where King gave his last speech in a Pentecostal organization. I can tell you conversations I've had personally with Bishop Patterson about Dr. Martin Luther King. And I trust Bishop Patterson like I would trust any saint that have done a phenomenal job. You're talking about a church organization, second largest Pentecostal organization. By the way, just a little history here. Had it not been for the Church of God in Christ, the assemblies of God would not exist because it was the Church of God in Christ, a black man by the name of Charles Mason, I'm going to tie this into King, who ordained a group of white guys, but in the heat of segregation, these white guys decided while Charles Mason was out doing evangelism and building other churches, hey, we can't take the pressure of racism anymore.

They started an organization called the Assemblies of God. So with that type of information, here is Bishop G. Patterson, I would speak for him often frequently. I would have multiple conversations with him about Dr. King.

Dr. King believed in the same God that G. Patterson believed in, but at times did he question things, no, not about God, but about organizations that went astray, some of the white counterparts. Remember it was Dr. King, Charlie, that said to not the world, he was saying this to a group, and I'm quoting part of the Birmingham letter right now, he said to a group of white pastors and leaders, he said, I know you brethren mean well when you tell me, Martin, don't act out right now. It's not time for civil disobedience.

What was King's response to his Christian white brothers? He says, you say the time isn't now. He says, but what do I tell my children? That when we pass the amusement parks, they're not allowed to go in it. That when we want to stop to get rest, we can't go to the hotels that are in the area because, and I'm quoting King, because no colored children are allowed. He said, therefore, we have to find ourselves sleeping in the crevice of our cars looking for comfort because we're not invited in. He says to his white brothers, he says, so when you tell me not now, when?

How long? So again, here was this great leader saying to all people, and I want to say for the record, King did more for the white community than he did for the black. Let me explain that very briefly because blacks already knew that they were made in the image of God, but there were some of their white counterparts that didn't see them as equal to themselves. So King was awakening the conscious of whites to say, hey, if you're really a Christian, you got to stop the segregation in your churches.

You got to stop it. That's why King went out to say, Charlie, he said the most segregated time in America is on Sunday morning. He wasn't saying it because blacks lived over here and whites lived over there. They were not allowed by the Christian organizations to even come together. So that was to God, and that sounds like the God of the Bible that I know that says there is no black and white. There's no Jew and Greek. We're all one in Christ. He says we're one in Christ.

That was the message of Martin Luther King. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always, freedom at Thanks so much for listening and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to
Whisper: medium.en / 2024-03-14 06:11:50 / 2024-03-14 06:26:53 / 15

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