How Long Until DEI Causes a Plane Crash?

Hey everybody, Tim at Charlie Kirk Show. We went viral recently for some of our comments regarding the FAA and who is hiring the pilots and air traffic controllers. We have an amazing guest, Michael Pearson, who is suing the FAA. He's a pilot. He was in air traffic control. He's a lawyer. He's a professor.

Very, very qualified. And you're going to learn a lot about how DEI and wokeism has infiltrated the airlines, the Federal Aviation Administration, and more. Enjoy freedom at charliekirk.com and subscribe to our podcast.

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Go to noblegoldinvestments.com. Joining us is Michael Pearson. Michael, welcome to the program. Thanks, Charlie.

Glad to be here. You're former air traffic control, right? Yes, sir. Also a lawyer and you teach at Arizona State University.

I do. A lot I want to cover with you. You're involved in a class action lawsuit that's still ongoing with the FAA. I want you to tell us about that, but I do want to speak more broadly because we had a conversation recently that went viral where we talked about how the FAA and some of these airlines are beginning to prioritize diversity over merit and excellence.

I think you have something to share regarding those statements. Well, certainly from the air traffic control side, the FAA for years, along with obviously other government agencies, but the FAA is more critical because it's a safety-related occupation. And they've engaged in what I believe to be a form of social engineering for years, but it got fairly blatant and bad in 2012, 2013 period, where they took the best source of controller applicants, the pipeline for air traffic controllers.

There's 36 universities across the country, and in a midnight raid, so to speak, literally in late December of 2013, it has notified all these students who paid tuition and who had gone through two to four-year programs investing their life's work in becoming an air traffic controller. They eliminated them from a preferential hiring list, and the reason was is because they were the wrong color. And a lot of those young folks who were on that list, by the way, it was a very diverse list, males, females, Hispanics, African-Americans, and to be very straightforward, your race, your gender has nothing to do with your ability as an air traffic controller. That's right. I've trained hundreds of them, and so I know that for a fact.

It's really more your motivation and your ability to persevere through a tough training program. And so literally, this was from an organization called the National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees, who felt there were too many white privileged controllers on the list. They went through the Rainbow Push Coalition, it was Jesse Jackson at the time, and the DOT, and eliminated the program overnight.

And it was race-based, there's absolutely no doubt, and that's what we're litigating the case for, and that's what we're going to prove, to bring justice to these kids who lost not only their tuition, but their life dream, simply because they were the victims of identity politics. So then post-2013, 10 years ago, how has ATC air traffic control changed since then? Well, I will also, definitely one of the things that happened, one of the causal effects, where now the FAA has facilities that lack adequate staffing.

A lot of the delays you hear about are actually because they shut down airspace, not because of the weather, because of airlines. They literally shut down sectors because they don't have enough folks to work. Most controllers at major facilities now are working six-day weeks, a day of overtime per week, which is exceedingly costly. Air traffic controllers make a very good wage, and what happens is when these controllers work six-day weeks, after a while, they start sticking out.

So you can imagine if you do the math, it's an exponential cost to the system. Not only are the controllers tired, the attrition rate is high, and a lot of folks are leaving the profession, so here's what we have. It's a situation where you have less qualified people working more airplanes, and it's not a good situation. I'm not a table pounder.

I'm not a person that predicts dire consequences. There's a lot of technologies and automation that help air traffic controllers separate airplanes now. But the deficit in the system has been hidden, hidden from certainly the flying public. The airlines have got it figured out. They've been able to fly through weather for years, and they've been able to do certain things for a long time. So when the FAA shuts down sectors and causes reroutes or eliminates flights, that's also a causal effect of eliminating the controller pipeline. According to the New York Times, there's more and more near misses at airports. They're way up. Is this related to this, and are you afraid of a ticking time bomb?

I am, and I'll tell you why. After a while, controllers get tired. They work at most of your major facilities, the bigger facilities that handle most of the air carrier traffic, which is airline traffic. Most controllers work six-day work weeks when they're supposed to work five-day work weeks. And again, that's the domino effect I told you about. What ends up happening is controllers work. They work this over time, and then to get a day off, they take sick leave.

So the financial costs are high, but the human toll is high also. And so it's very difficult when you're tired and your sleep cycles are controllers, but they're called your circadian cycles. Because of the nature of the way air traffic controllers work, they work two nights, two mornings, and work a midnight. It's not good for your body.

It's not good for your awareness. And so there's a lot of factors involved, but cutting the pipeline and eliminating folks that would have been fantastic certified air traffic controllers working in the system now has led to a lot of safety issues. But the thing that the public doesn't know is that the air traffic controllers about 15, 20 years ago were given immunity for close calls. So it used to be if an air traffic controller had an operational error, controllers call them deals, an operational error simply means that two airplanes got too close, less than standard required separation, that those controllers could be pulled off the boards and given retraining. It's not so anymore. In fact, in order to get retraining for a controller, the managers of the facility have to go through extraordinary measures, and usually they're overruled. So what you have is a system which wasn't meant to be deterrent. It was meant to provide training to controllers to bring them back up to speed if they kept having repetitive error or they kept having deals, operational errors.

It's non-existent now. Do you know of any examples about siting them, but just curious of people that have been pushed through the system as pilots or air traffic controllers that might not have been as qualified as they should be? Yeah, absolutely. Hundreds of them. Hundreds? Hundreds of them. And would these people be in the, let's say, the diversity box? Certainly a percentage I believe are. Usually when I look at that or when folks still in the FAA, I still have a lot of contacts that work in the field in the FAA, and I get lots of communications. And, of course, they can't become or they can't speak out themselves because they will be retaliated against. The FAA has gone full woke-ness, full DEI.

And certainly with the management over the last few years in the air traffic branch, they're more worried about diversity than they are near misses. I'll give you a real quick story. Please do. Yeah, and then I want you to repeat that, but please do.

Yeah, I'll give you a real quick story. I had a manager from a major facility contact me who's been in the FAA for decades and tell me that during one of their management meetings that was supposed to be about how do we reduce or eliminate these operational errors, lack of standard separation, people getting, airplanes getting too close. And the whole time the meeting was going on, the person in D.C. holding the meeting, all he wanted to do was talk about diversity, equity, and things of that nature. And literally the managers themselves across the country were communicating in text, instant messaging, offline about what a waste of time it was and they were exceedingly disappointed. The people in the field are not the people I'm complaining about. No, they're the heroes.

They're the heroes. They eliminated interviews for air traffic controller applicants. It used to be that before you could become a controller, you would have to go to a facility and talk to somebody. And that was to make sure you understood English and you could basically communicate. They eliminated that because that was a barrier to people that could not understand English. Well, the language of air traffic control is English. Yes, it's even English in almost every country, right?

It's IKO, yeah. It's worldwide. I mean, if you go to Japan, you're going to communicate in English if you land. If you fly over any country and you're part of an air crew, the language is English. Do you know of current controllers that are not as well versed in the language? I don't know of any personally because I've been out of the field. I haven't worked as a controller in over 10 years. But I have stories from other controllers training people that I trained where they're exasperated or they're having a difficult time because they will be dealing with someone and their language capabilities aren't up to par.

So I've heard stories. Yeah, there is this clip I think we'll get of an air traffic controller, a woman who was arguing with the pilot. And I've had tons of pilots say that woman was totally wrong.

She was. I know the clip you're talking about. It's totally inappropriate. And I would venture to say that that person, I don't know this to be a fact. So this is pure speculation and the current makeup of the FAA and managers are not allowed to effectively discipline air traffic controllers. Not only do they get a pass on operational errors to this air traffic community program that's been put in place, but air traffic managers who try to do the right thing are oftentimes retaliated and their careers suffer. So I'd be shocked because of the nature of the power the air traffic controllers union has, if in fact that controller suffered any consequences at all.

It was embarrassing to the system. And I'm also a pilot. So I can tell you she was. And I was also a quality assurance specialist for the FAA. So I happen to know the rules and regulations fairly well.

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Before they sell out, click the link in the description below and use the code KIRK to save 10% on your pine pollen tincture and all other products. So Michael, part of the problem is also the airlines. I know this was something that you just know probably adjacently.

Can you speak to that? Anytime you sacrifice safety at the altar of political correctness or wokeness, you're risking people's lives. It doesn't matter if it's air traffic control.

It doesn't matter if it's the flight side. I think most people in this audience and most people when it actually comes down to brass tacks, regardless of which side they're on, would want the best surgeon operating on their child. If my child has an issue and I need a pediatric neurosurgeon, I'm going to get the best neurosurgeon possible, regardless of the race, ethnicity, color, sexual preference, all the other garbage that people deal with. Anytime you're in a merit-based occupation, you cannot afford to do that. That's my personal belief, and I think most folks in the industry would agree with that.

There's enough examples of shining stars of every race, ethnicity, and creed to fill these positions. However, what we're doing is we're weakening the fabric in the system as a whole by not requiring air traffic controllers to have a certain level of expertise or qualifications prior to being checked out and certified. I want to play cut 86, and you're going to kind of tell us what's going on here because it's a lot of lingo going on here. Play cut 86, please. For a short approach, if you're going to do a power off 180, that's my point. Well, okay. I will remember that from now on. No problem. Yeah, when you ask for a short approach, I expect you to turn your base to beating the numbers.

That's incorrect. This ought to be a full stop for 65 Charlie, and maybe we need to talk about that some more because you're the first controller in 15 years that's ever said that. Well, I'm just, you know, if you ask for a short approach, a short approach is when you turn your base to beating the numbers. If I know you're a student asking for a short approach, I know you're out there practicing and you probably will extend. But if you're doing something other than a short approach, don't ask for a short approach. Well, I will definitely look up the definition of short approach because I've never seen where it says you turn base to beating the numbers because I don't see how you could possibly do that. Well, I googled it, actually.

I googled short approach, and it said to turn your base a beam or before the numbers, and you will land probably touchdown around this field. Your response? That's a ludicrous response. The air traffic controller rules are in a document.

It's a government order called the 7110.65. There's nowhere in there that you'll find or the AIM, the Airman's Information Manual that pilots use, where you find that definition of a short approach. It's ludicrous to expect that. It really depends on the type of airplane, the weather conditions, everything else. But I've never, and I've flown, I've never heard of that definition of a short approach, and I've worked millions of airplanes over my career. And actually, this very clip was passed amongst air traffic controllers, and I happen to be on the list, and her position is untenable.

There's nowhere in the regulations. In fact, as soon as she said, I googled it, most folks should realize that that person should not be working airplanes. Do you think she would be fired?

No. I think, as I stated before, I doubt very seriously if anything happened to her at all. It's embarrassing to the system. She might have got a letter or a counseling session with the supervisor, but I can guarantee, well, I can't guarantee you.

It's my sincere belief that that person didn't suffer any time off, was not retrained, because they can't retrain them without the managers getting discipline themselves from folks in D.C. who are worried about DEI issues. And she's a female, so there's a quota. Well, she's protected class, and the only people that aren't protected class are being very straightforward. It might not be politically correct, but I could care less for white males.

Yeah, we're the problem. All those safe landings for 40 years. And safe air traffic controller operations.

How racist of us to want to land airplanes. There's an FAA document from 2013. This is during the same period of time. Is this part of your lawsuit? I'm not sure.

If I saw the document, I could tell you. I'm very familiar. Is this one? Oh, yes.

You know what I'm — yeah, okay. Yeah, there's hundreds of thousands of documents regarding our lawsuit. Hundreds of thousands.

Yeah, so I want to just read this. This is from the FAA in 2013. They say, key questions for leadership. So who do they mean by leadership, the FAA, when they say this? The folks in Lafont Plaza, which is — That's where the FAA — the Department of Transportation is? The DOT and the FAA headquarters are right next to each other.

Get off the metro stop. Wasn't that Darren LaHood at the time or something, or under Obama? The DOT? Yeah, something — Ray LaHood or something? It was Ray, but then it was someone else.

He was Rodney Slater, I think. Yeah, okay. And then, yes. Now it's Mr. Buttigieg, super qualified. Yeah, different story.

Yeah, another DEI one. So this is, what are the relative values of diversity and the prediction of performance outcomes? And so what's amazing is that the FAA admits in their documents that there's a trade-off if you embrace diversity. The FAA understands and knows that the risks are going to be higher because — and really, it's not faced or directed toward any race. It's more of a competency issue. As I stated before, I've known air traffic controllers that are African Americans, Asians, Filipinos, certain female air traffic controllers, some of the best people I've ever worked with, to let you know. This would be very straightforward.

No, 100 percent. But the focus on identity politics — It forces it, where it's not — merit should be the only thing we care about. And there's plenty of people out there of all creeds and colors that are different races that could easily do these jobs. But trying to put everyone and paint everyone in a broad brush — no pun intended — with a broad brush and say, okay, you can become an air traffic controller, whether they have the competency levels or not, is creating an intentional hazard to flight safety. And they've been doing it for over a decade. So I want to reiterate this. In the part of your lawsuit, you've discovered these quiz questions. Yes.

What's going on with this? Once the FAA wiped out the air traffic CTI program — or attempted to, but Congress, thank goodness, has reinstated it. But back in 2013, the FAA literally wiped out lists of qualified folks — again, of all races, creeds and colors — who could be air traffic controllers because the National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees and BC FAA decided it was too white. And they used their political power and lobbying power to get that done. So that was the inception. That's what started. Our lawsuit is about that and about these folks being struck off the record due to characteristics that are allegedly protected by the Constitution and lots of laws.

And you would not think that the United States government would actually be the ones to violate the constitutional provisions and laws, but they have. Christmas is here, everybody. And that means that you might have to be moving boxes or just it's tough, a lot of stress. And that means inflammation increases. And that means pain also might increase alongside of it. Relief Factor, though, is here to help. It's a daily supplement that helps your body fight back against pain. It's 100 percent drug free and Relief Factor was developed by doctors searching for a better alternative for pain. Relief Factor uses a unique and proven formula of natural ingredients like turmeric and many others to help you get out of pain to reduce or eliminate the everyday aches and pains you're experiencing. So whether it's neck, back, joint or muscle pain, Relief Factor can help you feel better. Unlike pills that simply mask your pain for a short time, Relief Factor helps support your body's natural response to inflammation.

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Go to relieffactor.com. So in the test, there were certain things that if you said you weren't good at science, you actually got extra points. Well, yeah, I'll jump to that. What happened was prior to 2013, there was a peer reviewed employment test called the ATSA. It was a test that controllers had to take to qualify. And it had been reviewed and modified many times to take out any form of bias.

And the records are there. It was done by the Civil Aeronautical Medical Institute, CAMI. Well, in 2013, the FAA hired an outside vendor called APT metrics for the first time in history to do an outside analysis and outside review and develop a new test. The new test was called a biographical assessment or biographical questionnaire.

They changed the name midway through. And in this test, things such as what was your worst grade in high school? What was your favorite sport? Do you like math? And if you had any aviation experience? Well, ironically, that test, when you grade it out, if your worst grade was science, you got 15 points. If your best grade was science, you got less. If you had any aviation or military experience at all or were a pilot, you got no credit for it. No credit for it? No credit. Basically, you got three points in one question and the other, you got zero credit, even though there's a high correlation with having some experience in something and being good. Well, yeah.

If you know which end of the knife cuts, you're going to be a better butcher, right? And that's basically what the FAA decided was that's not true. And the FAA, in their infinite wisdom, used this test and they decided that they could take anyone and turn them into an air traffic controller. It's equivalent to the Veterans Administration hiring people off the street and teaching them how to be doctors as a butcher people in the hospitals or having your taxes overlooked and audited by someone who's not a CP or has no financial acumen at all. But the government and at least the FAA decided that it was more important to put people in based upon select identity characteristics and competency. And those questions are most people see them and they laugh and they can't believe that this was done.

It was done. So, Michael, United Airlines announced and they reiterated in an Axios interview about a year and a half ago that in their hiring class, so as far as their trainees, that they want 50 percent to be female or black. Currently, less than three to four percent of all pilots are black and I think maybe eight percent to 10 percent are female.

So let's just take those. How could you even find the people to to hit that target? It's an it's an insane goal.

You can't. And along with the FAA ties into what we're talking about, the Department of Labor statistics have statistics in every occupation. It's really interesting when you dig into it. I wish the FAA would have done it more. But if you look at those statistics, what they have are qualified individuals that can do jobs. They might be too old. They might have a disability. And it's based upon race. For instance, air traffic controllers who are qualified to be air traffic controllers back when the FAA wiped out the CTI list.

I forget what it was. I put it in the pleadings because I took it off the government statistics with somewhere between nine and 12 percent of the black population could be air traffic controllers simply because they might be too old. They might have health issues. There might not be enough of them.

Well, it's the same. And I haven't looked at the exact statistic with pilots. There's a relevant workforce population that can do the job. And the Department of Labor keeps track of that simply because of the basic qualifications. So when United Airlines or any airlines artificially sets limits as we're going to do 50 percent of a flight class, it's already difficult enough to get folks to have a minimum of fifteen hundred hours to work for.

Which by the way, they lie a lot now. Well, it's more than that. They go through a system where they have to work very low wages for a lot of years to qualify to get those fifteen hundred hours training people. And a lot of people can't afford to do it or they don't want to do it. They lose interest. And there's other lucrative opportunities elsewhere. There's an opportunity cost issue there. But at the end of the day, this social engineering is creating hazards to the flying public.

And the bad part about this is that the government and these folks engaging us have immunity. One of the things that needs to be changed, quite frankly, is the Federal Tort Claims Act. There's some other things that need to be modified because we have too many bureaucrats, specifically in the FAA, who are making life-altering decisions. Unelected bureaucrats, by the way. Unelected bureaucrats that are making life-altering decisions with no consequences to them.

Now, I will tell everybody the same thing I told folks in Congress when we lobbied to get these laws changed where the CTI went back. I talked to many members of the House and Senate and it became real to them because it's in their backyard. They all fly back and forth.

Yeah, seriously. So this is not an issue that you can sweep under the rug because the reason the FAA was created in 1958, by the way, was because of a collision, a couple of mid-air collisions. There were a couple of high-profile individuals, including congressmen, on board the airplanes. Well, that's when they really started regulating the system itself. Well, unless they grab a hold of this problem and they eliminate DEI, wokeness, whatever term you want to say, political correctness from the hiring decisions, there's going to be blood on people's hands. The problem of it is when you're trying to isolate and hold them responsible, they're going to have immunity and there's no one to hold responsible for these policies.

I have two questions in two minutes. Number one, some people still say the FAA is the greatest in the world, greatest standards. Are we at risk of losing that in its current trajectory?

Of course. Any time you derogate or reduce merit for other reasons in a safety-related occupation, you can't be at the forefront. Anyone else that is trying to develop professionals that are best in the system, they don't worry about gender, race, ethnicity. They just want the quality outcome.

And in the private sector, by the way, the reason business works is because it's competitive and you can't afford to do that. That's right. Last question here. You said that the question is that it's against white men. Where does that come from?

Is it that explicit? No, it's not that explicit, but basically the way the test was designed was to eliminate or to give preference to African-American applicants, the biographical assessment specifically. That can be shown statistically. The National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees actually had the test prior, at least it's our allegations. The DOT inspector general investigated, but they, of course, whitewashed it, no pun intended. But they actually had keywords and they had at least a version of the test from what their representative said at the time. There's a tape recording of them out there saying that to give preference to African-American applicants. So, no, they didn't come out in a policy and say there's too many white folks applying and we want to wipe the list out.

But every bit of evidence and people you talk to behind the scenes, including some very straightforward African-American applicants, have told me that was what they basically said. Michael, thank you so much. You're welcome, Charlie. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening and God bless. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.