Two Legal Minds Dissect the Colorado Trump Ban

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Will, thank you for joining the program. This is extraordinary, Will. The decision from the Colorado Supreme Court, was this expected or was this a surprise? You know, the crew and these other left-wing dark money groups have been bringing these 14th Amendment cases all over the country. Until yesterday, no court in America had found any validity or any merit to any of them. But Colorado Supreme Court did what they did. I think in the history of the United States, this is one of the most egregiously wrong and certainly one of the most dangerous dangerous court opinions that has ever come out of the judiciary in this country.

So the argument that they're making is that Donald Trump violated the 14th Amendment despite Donald Trump not even being indicted for anything regarding insurrection or rebellion. This is a near 100 page legal opinion. The most chilling part of this, Will, is that these are people that should know better. These are the best educated, the best credential. These are people that are writing as if they're an unhinged college freshman, offended by someone not using their pronouns. Yet they're supposed to be the sober guardian gatekeepers of legal decisions.

How did we get to a place where this happened? And I think even these judges know what they did is crazy, which is why they stayed their own opinion pending Supreme Court review until January. So they knew what they were doing, posed a serious risk to the Republic, and therefore they stayed their own opinion. That shows you how confident they are in their own legal reasoning. But as you said, what they've done here is they've taken the insurrection clause of the 14th Amendment, and they've said that through a summary state court proceeding, without the protections that due process provides in a normal trial context, without any of the evidentiary safeguards that you would see in a normal criminal trial, that they can just deem Trump to have been an insurrectionary, and therefore they can keep him off the ballot in their state. It's unprecedented in American history. It finds no support in the Constitution, in the case law analyzing this aspect of the 14th Amendment.

It is a totally lawless opinion. I believe we're going to appeal it, and I believe that we're going to win decisively. I want to play cut 27. This is former chief criminal division of SDNY, Christy Greenberg.

Play cut 27. Well, it is an interesting decision because the Colorado district judge, Sarah Wallace, last month, when she made her decision, she had a really puzzling decision where she found, based on the evidence, that Trump had engaged in insurrection, but essentially said, well, section three of the 14th Amendment, it doesn't apply to presidents. He's not an officer such that it applies to him, which was a really odd result. So when that was appealed, I think a lot of people had been scratching their heads and thought the appeal was appropriate. So it all comes down to this idea of insurrection or rebellion.

January 6 was, at the very worst, a mob that got out of control, and more accurately, a federal agency and filled provocation campaign infiltrated with an unknown amount of people, of the vast, vast majority of people that did nothing wrong and some people that got out of control. So, Will, what is the technical legal and definition of insurrection and rebellion? Because it comes back to the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment, that part A was obviously morally necessary to abolish slavery, part B, so broadly written, it's floated to be used to kick Trump off the ballot to not to abolish parts of the national debt, in fact, where they were the debt ceiling. They said that Joe Biden could use the 14th Amendment.

Your reaction, Will Scharf? Yeah. So there are a few things here, Charlie. So Article 3 of the 14th Amendment is this insurrection clause.

But then you go down a couple. And in Article 5, you have a clause that says that Congress can act to enforce the provisions of the 14th Amendment. And Congress did, in fact, has a criminal statute barring insurrection.

That's a defined term in the federal criminal code. President Trump has never even been indicted for the crime of insurrection, much less convicted of it. He was impeached for, some would say, similar sorts of offenses, and then acquitted by the Senate. So the idea that a Colorado court in a summary proceeding, not even a full trial, could just go and find that President Trump committed insurrection and attempt to keep him off the ballot for that's crazy. One other point, if I can, Charlie, the trial court in this case actually made one correct decision, which was that this insurrection clause clearly on its face does not apply to presidents. It specifically enumerates congressmen, presidential electors, and then has a catchall phrase for officers of the United States.

Why name congressmen and not name presidents if your intent was to include presidents? I think it's very clear that this provision does not apply to the president, cannot apply to President Trump. There are so many legal irregularities and deficiencies with this Supreme Court judgment that I look forward to having this up on appeal in front of the Supreme Court. I think that's going to be a very good day. Are you confident, 90%, 95% certainty that the United States Supreme Court will not let this stand and will blunt any other state measures that are trying to do this? I certainly hope so, Charlie. I believe that President Trump will be on the ballot in all 50 states come next November, and I believe he will be our next president.

I think the United States Supreme Court will do the right thing here, and we look forward to having this case up before. Hold on, hold on. Timeline's important. I agree with you about November. The primary, though, is also important. Is this a way that they could try to prevent him from getting primary delegates? The Colorado GOP is talking about going to a caucus system, writing people in. This is scheduled to be heard in January. Are they going to do an emergency, what is it called, a writ?

Right. They're doing an emergency deal. The Colorado Supreme Court stayed its own decision until January, giving us time, giving President Trump's legal team time to take this up to the Supreme Court and apply to the Supreme Court for a stay.

I don't want to predict exactly what the Supreme Court is going to do, but I think the idea that President Trump will be kept off the ballot in any state, that's just not going to fly. It's outrageous. So you mentioned something I want to emphasize, which is you said there are well-funded dark money nonprofits that are pushing this. This is not some sort of grassroots deal.

This is not even driven by office holders. Explain to our audience how left-wing billionaires and dark money groups sat in a room, and they came up with several ideas of how to prevent Donald Trump from becoming president. One of them was using the 14th Amendment for ballot access, which is a very important amendment for ballot access. Who are these groups and who funds them?

The principal group involved in this effort is called CREW, C-R-E-W, which is a major left-wing group. It plays generally in the politics space in a number of different ways, but that's sort of the linchpin of this effort to file these frivolous 14th Amendment suits all over the country. It's very important to note these cases, as you said, are not just being brought by ordinary or people who are concerned about whatever. These are cases that are being brought as part of a concerted lawfare and election interference effort against President Trump. It is egregiously wrong.

It is a violation of every democratic principle we have in this country, and it has to stop. Otherwise, this republic's not going to last. Will, you're very prudent. You're very wise. I don't want to.

You never exaggerate. If we don't get this right, do we have a country anymore? I think at the point where any state court can just declare someone an insurrectionary and hold them off the ballot as a result, I think that cuts to the heart of our constitutional system of government that undermines our Republican form of government. This is legitimately end of republic type stuff. But I'll say the same thing about when you have a sitting president using the Department of Justice to politically prosecute his principal opponent, when you have DAs around the country bringing frivolous criminal lawsuits against the leading presidential contender of one of the major parties in America. I mean, we are living in unprecedented times. The left loves to talk about norms and the rule of law. In the last three years, we have seen the left run roughshod over every constitutional norm we have and the rule of law itself. If we don't fight back now, we are not going to have a country left.

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Go to relieffactor.com. So Will, we were really busy at America Fest. It was unbelievable.

The Turning Point USA team deserves such amazing, amazing credit. But I was distracted, right? Because there was this thing, people were whispering in my ear, they're like, hey, the Supreme Court said something with Judge Chutkin. And so I want to talk timeline here because you're one of President Trump's lawyers. What is the timeline of when you think Donald Trump will actually be in a courtroom for January 6?

Documents, Georgia, Alvin Bragg. What is your best guess given the non-obviously privileged stuff? Public opinion. When do you think he'll actually be standing trial for those four? So let's start with the DC case. Judge Chutkin originally scheduled that for March to start the day before Super Tuesday. Presently, because of our judicial or because of our presidential immunity motion, that case has been stayed. Not just the trial, but all proceedings in that case have been stayed, pending final resolution of our presidential immunity and double jeopardy motions. Now, we have appealed that issue to the DC Circuit. Jack Smith's team is attempting to bypass the DC Circuit and take that case straight to the Supreme Court, which we plan on opposing.

My view is that the Supreme Court will reject Smith's attempt, that we will have our day before the DC Circuit, that we will likely have an appeal before the en banc DC Circuit, the entire circuit sitting as one court. And only at that point will the case make it to the Supreme Court, at which point the Supreme Court's own process probably takes a few to several months before we get a decision there. To cut a long story short, on the presidential immunity issue alone, I think the chances of that case going to trial anytime soon are vanishingly small. In addition to that, the Supreme Court took the Fisher case, which relates to the ability of the Department of Justice to prosecute January 6 protesters under the 1512 statute, obstruction of an official proceeding. We expect an opinion from the Supreme Court in that case no sooner than this spring or summer, most likely in June. That case directly implicates two of the charges in President Trump's DC case as well. So all in all, I think the chances of the DC case going to trial before the election are getting smaller by the day. The documents case in Florida, as you know, that case involves millions and millions and millions of pages of discovery, including classified discovery that requires special handling.

It involves thousands of hours of videotape recordings. The judge down there, Eileen Cannon, is a straight shooter. I think she's a fair judge. I think she will give the defense the time it needs to prepare a defense, which in that case is a lot of time.

Georgia, similarly, we're in front of a state court judge there who has not been rushing things. It's another very, very complicated case. I think he will give President Trump's defense team the right to adequately prepare a defense, to analyze the voluminous discovery in that case. And I think the chances of that going to trial before the election are quite small. The Bragg case is anyone's guess.

I will say that relative to the other three, it involves much more minor charges, basically misdemeanor bookkeeping charges that are being disguised as felonies. I don't want to make a prediction there. But all in all, when you look at the entire portfolio of these criminal cases against President Trump, I believe that he will have the opportunity as is his right to campaign unmolested by this lawfare to be the next president of the United States of America. I believe he's going to be able to campaign vigorously and effectively. And based on the polling and every metric we have available, I believe President Trump is going to be elected next November. And hopefully at that point, this unlawful campaign of lawfare will be at an end.

That was an amazing summary. So just to kind of put a button on it, Will, you don't think outside of Bragg, you don't think that any of the other three Georgia documents, J6, will be in trial before the election? I think the closer we get to election, the tougher it's going to be for them to justify a rush trial. And I think all of those cases, the timeline is stretching further and further out, not shortening DC.

I think if you'd asked us a couple months ago, DC was the biggest risk there. We have an absolute stay on proceedings. And the Supreme Court taking Fisher directly implicates issues in that case. I find it tough to see that getting to trial anytime soon. This is great news, right, Will, because we don't want to have Trump's legal team rushed. Obviously, we want to have an election, right? Because so much of this is political. And the question is, do they keep the charges if Trump wins?

All sorts of stuff. This is great news. And Will, I'm so happy that you're part of Donald Trump's legal team. I talked to the president the other day. I said, you've got a great one and Will and he agreed. So Will, you're doing a great job. I'm glad you're running for attorney general in Missouri.

We have your back. That was excellent analysis. Thanks so much, Will. Thank you. Thank you, Charlie. Have a good one. I've been talking about our nation's public schools and I've been captured by progressive ideologues, teaching things that directly contradict the values of millions of American families.

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Go to herzogfoundation.com. Mike Davis joins us, Article 3 Project. Mike, this whole hour has been dedicated to lawfare.

I think that we need to talk about it more, detail it more. Mike, am I thinking correctly that some of the lawfare plans are a little bit forwarded in recent weeks, especially with the Supreme Court looking at 1512, the Supreme Court potentially delaying, they needed to try to get Donald Trump as a convicted felon before Election Day. Is that likely to happen? Well, it shouldn't happen and it's really going to depend on whether the Supreme Court grants Biden Special Counsel Jack Smith's extraordinary petition for cert before judgment, meaning the Supreme Court would bypass the Federal Court of Appeals, in this case the D.C. Circuit, and take a case of first impression on whether the President of the United States enjoys presidential immunity in the criminal context. We know that judges get both civil and criminal immunity. Members of Congress get civil and criminal immunity when they're dealing with their official acts.

The President gets civil immunity, but this is the first time with Jack Smith's indictment of a President, this is the first time a former President or former President has faced criminal charges based upon actions they took as the President of the United States. In this case, whether January 6th was criminal, which it's not, so the Supreme Court will need to decide whether they're going to take the case now or let it go through the normal process. If they take the case now, which they should not do, Jack Smith and D.C. Obama Judge Tanya Shukin may be able to railroad President Trump and violate his due process rights and try to convict him before the election. If the Supreme Court does not take this case, if the Supreme Court says, let's wait for the D.C. Circuit to decide, I don't think that Tanya Shukin and Jack Smith will be able to get this January 6th trial in D.C. done before the election.

I mean, just, Mike, you know, for the those of us that, myself included, that don't know the way it is, it's so not unusual. It's grotesque to get a federal trial up in less than 12 months. I mean, this some federal trials take 36 months. They could take 40 months. Is that an exaggeration, Mike Davis?

Not at all. Remember, they waited 30 months to bring these charges against President Trump and they timed these trials for criminal trials, along with the civil fraud trial, back to back to back, along with these disqualification trials, back to back to back in March. It's March, it's May, it's March again. It's, you know, in August, it's insane what they're doing. It's blatant election interference by Democrat prosecutors and Democrat judges and Democrat hellholes, right, like D.C., New York and Atlanta. And it is very obvious that they're trying to interfere in the election. For example, on the January 6th case in D.C. with Jack Smith, there are like 13 million pages of documents and hundreds of witnesses. Trump is supposed to prepare for that and go to trial in seven months. While they have the January 6th defendants, the people who trespassed and paraded around the Capitol, they had them in the D.C. gulag, you know, for many, many, many months preparing for their trial. If you can't try someone for trespassing for more than a year, but you think you're going to try a former president and the leading presidential candidate for a, you know, a conspiracy on January 6th and you're going to do that in seven months, that just shows you that this is blatant election interference. And this is why the Supreme Court absolutely should not go along with Jack Smith's extraordinary request to speed this along.

This is huge news, everybody. Again, of all the threats a month or two ago, it was almost certain that Donald Trump was going to be in some sort of a courtroom. But, you know, people like you, Mike and Will Scharf and many others been filing motions. And it seems as if we're going to get past Election Day, which, by the way, even if you're a Democrat watching this show, which we have lots of Democrats that watch and we get their their notes and I love it. You should want to have an election uninterrupted by trials. I mean, give me a break.

I mean, just just keep the election untampered with. So I want to ask you, Mike, you are currently in Denver. You're based out of Colorado. These lunatics in the Colorado Supreme Court came out and they say Donald Trump's not allowed on the ballot. Did you expect this and walk us through it?

Yeah, absolutely. And what happened is, is you had these Democrat attorneys and these Democrat operatives and these fake Republicans bringing a election challenge in Colorado, an expedited challenge to disqualify President Trump from the Colorado primary ballot based upon January 6th. They claim it was somehow an insurrection, right? How many insurrectionists show up to a nation's Capitol unarmed, walk through velvet ropes, follow police direction, take selfies and don't burn down the damn place.

January 6th was a lawful protest permitted by the National Park Service that devolved into a riot. And this, this biased Denver District Court Judge Sarah Wallace, who donated to an anti-Trump January 6th PAC to chase Republicans out of office, somehow she thought that she could be fair. She, she got called out on this, so she found that there was an insurrection, but then, then she essentially head, head faked and said that the 14th Amendment does not apply to the President of the United States, knowing that the seven justices, the seven Democrat appointed justices on the Colorado Supreme Court would affirm her insurrection ruling and reverse her, her ruling under the 14th Amendment that the, that the 14th Amendment doesn't apply to the President. So that's exactly what they did.

This is exactly what I predicted would happen, right? So you have the insurrection finding and then that the four most liberal justices on the Colorado Supreme Court in a four to three decision reversed and said, yeah, the 14th Amendment applies to the President. He's disqualified in Colorado. Now, Trump's going to lose Colorado regardless.

It's a deep blue state, but now Democrats are going to take this abomination of a legal precedent on the road to key swing states again, like Michigan, like Minnesota, like New Hampshire, to try to disqualify him and those key swing states. But, and then, but the US Supreme Court can come in and just put an end to this. Is that right? The US Supreme Court can just say, this has been fun. We're done.

Is that right? Well, that requires the Supreme Court to actually do their jobs and follow the law. The law is very clear that the Supreme Court has discretionary review.

They don't have to take this case, but I don't know how they avoid this. And the law is very clear. There's 155 year old precedent from Chief Justice Samuel Chase after the Civil War. If you want to disqualify under section three of the 14th Amendment used to chase Confederate insurrectionists out of government, if you want to do that, Congress has to pass a federal criminal statute for insurrection or rebellion, which Congress did in 1869. It's still in the books. If you want to get rid of Trump for January 6th, Jack Smith would have to bring charges under that federal criminal statute for insurrection or rebellion or another prosecutor.

It doesn't have to be Jack Smith. You'd have to have a grand jury indict. A federal jury finds him guilty unanimously with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that federal trial judge would have to convict and that conviction would have to be upheld on appeal. That is the only way you can disqualify under section three of the 14th Amendment. You don't get to have partisan secretaries of state or goofball state Supreme Court justices like these four clowns in Colorado who think that they get to just decide for millions of Colorado voters who the next president of the United States is going to be.

Yeah, it's just it's so immoral and disgusting and repulsive. Talk about the fact, though, just Colorado generally, some people have emailed us freedom at Charlie Kirk dot com. Wow, Colorado, I didn't see coming. I did. And I'm sure you did. Colorado is one of the most radical places in the country.

How did this happen, Mike? Just riff on Ruby Red Colorado that got blueprinted into a state that is legitimately more insane than California in some ways. Not an exaggeration. When I first moved to Colorado back in 2000, 2006, it was a red state. And then these Democrat billionaires poured millions and millions and millions of dollars in dark money into Colorado. And they went to all mail ballots where you just mail ballots out to everyone on the voter list. And then they legalized marijuana.

And so all these dirtballs from California and New York moved to Colorado was like cultural COVID. They destroyed the state. And now it is a deep blue state.

And this used to be a deep red state. Every statewide office is controlled by Democrats. Every seat on the Colorado Supreme Court, seven of seven seats is controlled by Democrats. The Colorado Court of Appeals is controlled by Democrats. Every institution in Colorado, the Denver government is controlled by Democrats. There are very few Republicans who have any control in Colorado. And it's at the local level. It's not even at the state level. And that's how they've taken over in Colorado. And we've gone from having liberals who love America and just disagree with conservatives on the best way to get there to leftists in Colorado. These four leftists on the Colorado Supreme Court who went to these fancy law schools and they brought these elitist values to Colorado and they are destroying this state. And if they think that they're going to get away with having four elite justices on the Colorado Supreme Court, just unilaterally disenfranchise over a million Trump supporters in Colorado.

This is crazy. This is not going to fly. And I would say one of these justices is Monica Marquez. She's up for retention in November of 2024. Throw her ass out of office. Vote no on the retention of Monica Marquez.

That was a fabulous summary. Remember, Colorado is the second most college educated state in the country. Second, Massachusetts one, Colorado two. And you have a lot of people that have been affected by the academic virus. They come in and they have destroyed the great state of Colorado.

Just a quick question, Mike. Is there any left wing liberal backlash in the state of Colorado? They just think this is totally normal. Is there anyone speaking out against this? Well, I mean, there were there were three Democrat appointed Supreme Court justices in this four to three decision who said that this was an abomination, that this violates our Constitution and violates our due process.

It's un-American. It is shocking what's happened. I think there are even Democrats who are waking up and realize, oh, no, we've gone too far because we have really awakened the American people. And when they when they disqualify Trump, it's no longer it's no longer a theory. It's no longer you and I talking about this for the last 16 months. What we've been predicting that this would happen, it's actually happened.

And people are like, wow, I've had 30 people or more text message me today. These are not Trump supporters. These are, you know, conservatives, independents, even some Democrats who are saying, wait a second, I'm not a Trump fan. But this is nonsense.

What's happening here? We cannot let this happen. And this solidified Trump support. Mike Davis, I want to play this piece of tape here. Tulsi Gabbard gave a great speech at our America Fest, and she warned that the Democrats, they will stop at nothing.

Play got 45. So as we head into this next election year, which is coming upon us very quickly, beware because we're dealing with people who have no respect for the rule of law, who undermine it for their own political gain and willing to do anything. We should not be surprised if they declare new national emergencies that allow them to grab on to more power.

We should not be surprised if they declare new unnecessary counterproductive wars of choice, whether cold wars or hot wars, to stoke fear and try to force us into submission, all in the name of national security. Mike Davis, Steve Dace, who I disagree with on some things, but I like him and we text a lot. He's not not exactly the Trump camp. I wouldn't say anti Trump.

He's Trump critical. But he had a really great point. He said, there's obviously a plan that there's obviously a plan in 2024. And the Colorado Supreme Court went to like 10 out of 10 thermonuclear weapon that just kind of basically it spoils the lead. I think it was a great point, meaning now we now we could basically have a reference point, say, see, see, they're literally trying to make you so you can't vote for this guy. Mike Davis.

Yeah, of course. Remember, they spied on President Trump as a candidate. They spied on him as the president of the United States. They ran the Russian collusion hoax against him and illegal criminal conspiracy to interfere in the 2016 election to take him down. They impeached him twice for nonsense.

They said that the Russia the laptop, the hundred Biden laptop, 51 former intelligence said it was a Russian disinformation campaign. They interfered in the 2020 election with that. They're interfering in the 2024 election with with their four indictments for non crimes.

There are two illegal gag orders. They're trying to bankrupt Trump for not non fraud in New York. They're trying to just take him off the ballot. The Democrats will do anything to win. This is not our parents or grandparents Democrat Party. These aren't liberals who love America, and just disagree with us and the best way to get there. These are leftists. They hate America and they will do anything they can to win.

All they care about is power. And you're going to see that if you think the BLM and a Tifa riots were bad in 2020. Buckle up for the Hamas riots in 2024. And I would say to Republican voters, do not wait till election day to vote. Vote as early as you can.

Because if there are riots and disruption on election day, that could change the election. Mike, in closing here, what other things should we be, I'm asking every guest this, expectant of in 2024? What games do they have up their sleeve?

What tricks do they have? How can they try to derail us in 2024? I mean, they've thrown everything they have at the wall with impeachments, with indictments, with civil fraud, bankruptcy, gag orders, disqualification, Hamas riots are likely coming.

I don't know what more they can do. But I would just say to Trump supporters, again, vote as early as possible. Bank your vote. Do not wait till election day.

Mike Davis, Article Three Project. Thank you so much. Excellent work.

Thank you. America Fest was a game changer, everybody. I know a lot of you guys watched online. We had record attendance. It was unbelievable. People came from all across the country. And the most amazing part of America Fest, of course, we had the massive viral moments. We had everybody up on stage.

It was incredible. But was the breakouts. That's the buried lead of America Fest. We had 30 packed breakouts where people sat for a long time, hour and a half, sometimes two hours. And these were detailed training, standing room only, how to become an RNC delegate, how to become a precinct committeeman, how to run for office.

We did one on Robert rules of order. By the way, if you go to breakouts at other conservative events, you'd be lucky if 16 people show up. These were packed. And that's why I describe America Fest as the super activist convention. Somebody asked me, they said, what were the two takeaways? Two words from America Fest, hopeful and heavy. I leave with a lot of hope. But it's if you're around and you hear these speakers like, boy, it is a very heavy moment. People are talking about a spiritual war, the transing of kids, the wide open border.

We had Tom Homan. They got these passports of people dropping them at the border. But I left and I leave and I have hope.

And you see the dedication. People are locked in. I mean, this is not normal. By the way, the bad guys, the Marxists, the media, they say, oh, it's just an event.

No, no, no, no. This was a boot camp. That's what they miss. And that's fine.

The media, they're lazy. Boot camp. And there you are going to see the posits, the positive impact of America Fest for literally generations to come. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always. Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

Thanks so much for listening. God bless. All riled up. And don't get me started about the reindeer right selves. The shop floor just isn't the happy little place it used to be. We should have used Red Balloon.

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