Remaking the GOP in Real Time with Patrick Ruffini and James Lawrence

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Noblegoldinvestments.com, the only gold company I trust. Hey everybody, at the end of the Charlie Kirk show, Patrick Raffini joins us. Is the GOP being remade in real time and going to jail for making a meme? The tragic story of Douglas Mackie. We have his back. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Get involved with Turning Point USA at tpusa.com.

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Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at sierra pacific mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. Alright everybody, welcome back. We have a young man who will be going to federal prison in the new year because he made a meme. Because he made a meme. A meme that no one acted on, no one was disenfranchised, but it goes to the core of what the regime aims to do. You cannot make fun of the regime.

Comedians shall be imprisoned, but they want to set a legal precedent that speech can land you in jail. Joining us now is James Lawrence, attorney for the Legal Defense Fund for Douglas Mackey. James, thank you for taking the time. James, our audience is familiar with this story and with what's happening with Mr. Mackey.

Just give us an update. How is Douglas doing personally? Thanks again, Charlie, for having me on to discuss this case. So to get your audience up to speed, on October 18th, the federal district court judge in Brooklyn, New York, sentenced Mr. Mackey to serve seven months in prison for violating federal law under allegedly under 18 USC 241. So seven months in prison, which will start in January. So he was ordered to report to prison in January. And importantly for your audience to know, he asked for the sentence to be stayed pending appeal. So his legal team right now is in the process of appealing the conviction to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. And so his defense asked for the district court judge to allow the appeal to go forward and for his sentence not to start until all appellate options have been exhausted. The judge denied that request and ordered him to report for the start of a sentence beginning in January. And another point for your audience to be aware of, again, sentence on October 18th, on October 17th, Mr. Mackey's wife gave birth to the couple's first child.

And Doug couldn't be there, Charlie. He was not present at the birth of his first child because he was in federal district court the following day in New York City awaiting sentencing. And it's just another aspect of this case that's heart-wrenching and troubling on every level.

We've talked about it previously. The First Amendment problem, the Fifth Amendment problem, and with respect to the conduct of the trial itself, the Sixth Amendment problem. And then you compound all of those constitutional issues, which are profound and downright disturbing, and add on top of that the personal impact of missing the birth of your firstborn child and compound it with, hey, you're going to have to report to prison in January.

So that's the latest. So in American history, James, has someone been sentenced to federal prison for a speech crime such as this in the history of the Republic? Well, this is this is the first prosecution of its kind, Charlie, under 18 U.S.E.

241. And again, this was a statute that was passed in 1871. It was aimed at preventing the Klan from exercising power and intimidating African Americans who were newly emancipated from slavery. No such prosecution has been brought in the history of our country under that statute. Now, I mean, can speech provide a predicate basis for criminal liability in other contexts? Yes, but as we've maintained in court filings, this is a, or as Doug's defense has maintained in court filings, this is a radical extension of federal criminal liability to really criminalize political speech. And that is what this case at its core is about.

That's why it's so important. That's why we're asking your audience and others to go to memedefensefund.com to support Doug's legal defense, because this is a precedent that can't stand. It has to be resolved and overturned at the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. And if it doesn't happen there, then ultimately, Mr. Mackey's case has to go to the U.S. Supreme Court and the Supreme Court will have to weigh in on it.

It's not important. I mean, the issues that are at stake here are just fundamental bedrock issues that go to the core of what it is to be an American, to be able to speak truth to power, as you alluded to when you were open, to be able to speak truth to power to the regime itself, which cannot broker and cannot tolerate in some ways, and we think that this case illustrates that dissent and the poking of fun at the political class in this country, we can't stand for this. This prosecution theory, this theory of criminal liability has to be headed off at the past or there will be other prosecutions. And in fact, there's media coverage that took place early on in this case suggesting that the Department of Justice is contemplating just that. Other prosecutions predicated on the spread of misinformation and disinformation. And Charlie, as we know from the COVID pandemic, today's misinformation and disinformation conspiracy can be tomorrow's conventional wisdom. It's a path we can't go down. It's Pandora's box that we can't open. It's been opened in Mr. Mackey's case and it has to be shut down on an appeal. And again, that's why we're asking your audience to go to memedefensefund.com. Douglas Mackey's case is the basis for the the Smith case against Trump. Same law.

They escalate and they elevate. So, James, tell us about that. And by the way, it's memedefensefund.com. This impacts every single every single patriot out there that you could you could be a young man who now is a father. He misses the birth of his son so that these cockroaches, these maniacs, these vermin and swine can bring him in front of a judge to put him in federal prison for seven months. And there are no victims.

James, I just want you to reiterate that. Who was victimized by his meme? Tell a bad joke and you go to jail. Well, Charlie, the government did not put on did not forecast before trial and at trial, did not put on a single witness that said, I saw this meme, I was confused and as a result, I texted my vote and didn't exercise my right to go to the polls or vote by mail or whatever other legal mechanism of voting was available to that person at the time. So not a single person, not a single confused voter who did not get to exercise their right to vote.

And yet, Douglas Mackey is going to prison for seven months anyway, under this ruling and under the verdict, unless it's overturned on an appeal, which is why it's so critical that we had the theory of prosecution off at the pass. And another thing for your audience to know, we talk a lot of this country about our democracy. And people make allusions to it that our democracy in the case of former President Trump is under attack in many ways and the ways that he's trying to curtail the influence of the administrative state.

It's important for your audience to know that Congress repeatedly considered whether or not to create criminal liability around election misinformation and disinformation. They considered various proposals to do that, and they rejected them. A proposal like this never passed the House or the Senate and was signed into law by a duly elected president.

And yet, Mr. Mackey has to report to prison in January anyway, because the administrative state, the deep state, was able to stretch and contort a statute from 1871 to achieve an outcome that was not politically viable or could not be pushed through the Congress. And that is really what the regime means when it talks about our democracy. It's not about voting. It's not about elected representatives voting.

It's about unelected prosecutors and bureaucrats using statutes to enact its will and impose its will on the American people without those. Christina Wong tweeted on November 8th, 2016. Hey, Trump supporters, skip poll lines at election 2016 and text in your vote.

Text votes are legit or vote tomorrow on Super Wednesday. Christina Wong is still making jokes, was never investigated or indicted. And Christina Wong continues living a free life.

Meanwhile, Douglas Mackey did the exact same thing, even less blunt, by the way, and he is going to federal prison. Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here. I want to tell you about the Legacy Box Sale of the Year. You send in all of your stuff to Legacy Box and you can get it as low as nine dollars a tape.

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Everyone should contribute MemeDefenseFund.com. So, James, what is your approach for the appeal going to be? First Amendment protections, Fifth Amendment protections, what will your approach be for appeal? Well, Doug's appellate team will undoubtedly raise arguments under the First, Fifth and Sixth Amendments.

I mean, the First Amendment issues have been talked about quite a bit. The Fifth Amendment issues relate to the use of a very vague statute. Again, as I mentioned in the opening segment, this is a law that was passed in 1871 and it is the text of the statute bars conspiracies to injure, quote unquote, to injure individuals in their exercise of protected rights.

And so one of the arguments I'm sure his appellate team will make is that the statute itself is impermissibly ambiguous and vague and attack it on a void for vagueness challenge under the Fifth Amendment for lack of notice under the Due Process Clause. The Sixth Amendment issues relate to, among other things, Mr. Mackey's defense not being able to cross examine a confidential government witness who was allowed to testify basically under shield on the nature of that individual's ongoing relationship with the FBI. Under the Sixth Amendment, criminal defendants have a right to cross examine their accusers in public, in open court, and one of the problems, among others, among others with this prosecution is that Mr. Mackey didn't get to do that in violation of the Sixth Amendment.

And again, this is bedrock stuff. I mean, this goes back to the right to confront your witnesses in public and open court, goes back to Sir Walter Raleigh, the namesake of my hometown, who was locked away in the Tower of London precisely because he could not cross examine his witnesses in open court. That's why we have the Sixth Amendment. Yeah, no kidding.

So and then I mentioned this before the break. Is there an equal protection argument here potentially? I mean, they don't enforce this against Christina Wong, who has obviously did the exact same thing.

Right. No, that's another that's another avenue for sure is the selective prosecution, though defendants in many cases try that argument. And certainly in this case, as you pointed out in the open, you've got similarly situated individuals engaged in similar conduct. But I think that's a that's a harder, harder case, a harder case to make than than some of the other other arguments.

That's just my my impersonal view of it. But Doug's appellate team will handle all of that. Yeah, the prosecutorial discretion that we give the federal government is remarkable. James Lawrence, thank you so much. Meme Defense Fund dot com. Help out Douglas Mackie, a young man going to jail because he told a bad joke.

You are living in the Soviet Union. James, thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, everybody, I've got some thrilling news to share with you. The by optimizers Black Friday mega sale is in full swing. And guess what? It's not just a one day thing.

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So check it out by optimizers.com promo code Kirk 10. Joining us now is Patrick Raffini, author of a book called Party of the People inside the Multiracial Populist Coalition Remaking the GOP, poster for Echelon Insights, Echelon Insights and author of Party of the People. Patrick, thank you so much for taking the time. Patrick, your book confirms and or the poll, I should say it differently. The poll this weekend for The New York Times confirms the thesis of your book.

That's a better way to frame it. Tell us about your book and how also the data is confirming your hypothesis. So my book is about how essentially the parties, the parties that we knew maybe when I was growing up, have just completely reversed themselves in terms of the Democrats used to be seen as this party of the working class, party of the people, really standing up for the blue collar worker. And really ever since 2016, that really hasn't been true anymore. You've seen this huge huge reversal in terms of working class voters increasingly voting Republican and voted for Trump in 2016. And more so a lot of these coal, a lot of these groups voted more so in 2020, including Latinos, African Americans. Now, that looks to be if if this poll is right, it's going to be like that on steroids in 2024. When you look at Trump being at 22% of the black vote, within eight among Hispanic voters, we really are seeing a realignment in our politics.

Yeah. So what is driving this? Is it the Republicans embrace of populist nationalist ideas or is it a combination of academic fantasy ideas of white liberalism that don't resonate with non college educated muscular class voters?

It is it is a it is definitely a combination of both. But I think that, you know, everything that we're seeing out of the college campuses over the last month suggests that the left has really learned nothing about how to moderate their message to appeal to the working class majority of the country who are not interested in these ideas of inter of decolonialization of intersectionality of things that are only ideas that only somebody with an advanced degree even could could even fathom. So I do think that they're just continuing to dig themselves a bigger hole.

You go back to it didn't used to be like this. You go back to as recently as the 1990s. And Bill Clinton, you know, a lot of Republicans didn't like Bill Clinton when he was president, but he is somebody who really moderated his message, said the era of big government is over, signed welfare reform, signed the Defense of Marriage Act. All of these things that, you know, you could not see Joe Biden for all his talk about for all the talk that he is somehow this sort of blue collar working class Democrat. He is just as beholden, I think, to the left as as anyone. And you just don't see that kind of Democrat anymore.

Why do you think that is? This Donald Trump obviously changed American politics. That will be one of his longest lasting legacies is reshaping the Republican Party. Democrats seem comfortable. They don't seem as if they want to win over muscular class voters again. They think they can create a fusion of the of the permanently government addicted and the hyper educated Boston elite.

Why is that? Well, I think they're going to be then reduced to that elite. That's what's starting to happen. So this idea is the Democratic Party has always been this coalition of folks who are, you know, these liberals, primarily white liberals and and African-Americans, Hispanics, minority voters.

Right? I mean, that has always been kind of the core of the Democratic coalition. And now we're seeing that break apart, where significant chunks of voters, you know, in these minority communities have actually started to break off. I know there's been talk about this for decades, Republican conservatives have talked about this for decades, but it actually seems to be happening.

So what's going on? What's going on is a lot of these groups are actually better off. So under under Donald Trump, Hispanic incomes rose 20%.

Asian American incomes rose 20%. So they're no there's no longer the sense that they are need to be dependent on the federal government. You talk to people I visited the Rio Grande Valley of South Texas, and you talk to people down there and they want to get ahead by their own hard work and are very suspicious of anyone who is on government welfare benefits.

I mean, that is a really big concern. When you talk to people down there, you see who talk about like, why is there a Tesla in front of the unemployment office that shouldn't be happening? So it's a very different kind of politics that I think people on the left and, you know, frankly, some people on the right have assumed about about the people they want. They're achieving the American dream. They want to get ahead and they realize the Democratic Party is not helping them get there. So let's just talk pure numbers in the states that matter. Georgia, Wisconsin, Arizona, maybe Pennsylvania. If these trends continue and Republicans get near 50 percent or at least near an equilibrium within the margin of error with Hispanics and continue to do well with working class whites, but maybe do a little bit worse with upper middle class white voters.

What does that mean? How how significant is the growth in the multi class, the multiracial middle class to just get one more vote than the other guy? I mean, I think that what Trump showed in 2016 and why the election was so close in 2020 was the fact that this coalition of working class whites and the more African-Americans, Latinos punches above its weight in the Electoral College. You know, when it comes to the states actually decide the election, not just the Rust Belt states of Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, but also states like Arizona, Georgia and Nevada, you know, those states have tend to have fewer graduates than the blue states, where primarily all these college graduates, people with postgraduate degrees, people who are listening to the crazy ideas coming out of college campuses now, you know, those are concentrated primarily in blue states.

That's why I think Trump or any Republican candidate would have an advantage in the Electoral College by appealing and talking to these voters. Yeah, if you look at the state with the most college degrees is by far by far Massachusetts. And it's that way every single year. I mean, with Boston and all that. And then Colorado is right up there.

It's the second. And then it goes Vermont, New Jersey, Maryland, Connecticut. These are these are traditionally Democrat states. And then you go from the bottom up, the ones that have the least college education. By the way, that doesn't mean they're stupid.

I don't have a college degree. What it means, though, is that they have different professions. They'll work with their hands, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, oil fields, entrepreneurs. It's not an indictment of their intelligence. And they also, but most importantly, Patrick, author of Party of the People, different value systems.

That is absolutely right. This is a group that has never, you know, they have not ever had anything handed to them. They've had to work for what they have. And I think that just they're unified, united by a common sense value system, even if they don't vote Republican.

And I think that, you know, you particularly talk to try talking, I think, about the Green New Deal or the screen transition idea within these minority communities. And the polling is pretty clear on that, that when it comes to, you know, you know, people, you know, really saying, you know, all this stuff about global warming is nice and you hear this in focus groups a lot, but it doesn't help me put food on the table. And I think the real the real trigger as much as, you know, as much as Republicans want to pat themselves on the back for realigning these for realigning these voters, the real trigger for this has been the absolute failure of the Biden administration to bring down inflation meaningfully. And the fact that we've had so much inflation has really hit these voters, particularly really hard in the wallet.

And these are the voters who are actually paying attention to performance. You know, I think that if you have a college degree, it doesn't necessarily mean you have more accurate ideas about politics or the world, because I think you're primarily you're very partisan and you're voting. You know, I think you're very committed to existing your existing ideology and whatever information comes out, you know, really just is going to push you in one direction or the other. This multiracial populist coalition is very pragmatic, is very common sense, and they can see what's happening.

I want to keep on diving into this. Does the does the working a multiracial class you're talking about? If the Republican Party were to go to all of a sudden and nominate like a Mitt Romney or somebody like that, they wouldn't necessarily be on on board for that, correct? Well, I think that it's a little bit I think we are not going back to that kind of Republican Party. That said, I do think that there are a number of candidates running who could, by and large, capitalize on this on these trends. And you see it in a place like Virginia with Glenn Youngkin, you know, who did really well, and we'll see, you know, in the election tomorrow, you know, how well his candidates do. But I do think that, you know, we are permanently on a trajectory, I think here, where people are going to have to, you know, Republicans are going to have to realize, you know, it's not, you know, it's not going to be the case that, you know, you're fully going to back to where we were before Trump. And I think people in the establishment need to understand that, too.

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That is CharlieKirk.com and click on the Preborn banner. So, Patrick, if you were advising the Republican Party to go into 2024, there is an open question. Do you try to run up the score and the rules and go straight working class voter or do we just kind of forget the upper middle class suburban type voter? Is or is it a balance of both for every messaging you do, you know, towards suburban? You might turn off some of the working class folks or there are issues that can bridge the divide.

What would you say, Patrick Raffini? I think you always have to look at the issues that are bridged the divide because you're gonna you're gonna kill two birds with one stone that way. But what I do think that right now people are very concerned about the border. People are very concerned about the economy and the state that they need high inflation. The fact that, you know, prices are 20 percent higher than they were when Joe Biden was inaugurated.

People are concerned about crime. You know, we used to think about a lot of those issues as base issues but, you know, the failure on those issues has been so great that those are not just base issues anymore. Those are issues that, you know, really resonate across the spectrum with independents, moderates.

And they also resonate with Hispanics and African-Americans, too, especially. So I think like, you know, we have plenty of issues. If we can stay focused, I think on those three issues, I think Republicans are going to be in good shape.

Yeah. And I mean, so the the other question I have for you is that can another candidate other than Trump continue a multiracial type working class coalition? We've seen a little bit of evidence of that with DeSantis in 2022, but it hasn't really been replicated. It seems as if rural turnout dives a little bit.

That kind of mystery voter is hard to replicate. Can it be done? I think it can. I think it can in the sense of you have seen it. You definitely have seen it with DeSantis. You've seen it with a candidate like I mentioned, Yunken as well. I do think that, you know, in the sense of, you know, I mean, you may have and when you have candidates like look, I mean, MAGA was not a huge fan of Brian Kemp, but in Georgia, he carried that state in a landslide. Really, he carried by eight points and he won in all the places Trump won. But he added back some of those suburban voters. So, yeah, I think that any of these candidates, I think, could win. I think they each bring slightly different strengths to the table.

Yeah. I mean, look, I'm not a fan of Kemp, but you're right. In some ways, he shows how to win Georgia, which is you don't totally tick off the rules. You don't do as well as Trump, but you do better in Buckhead.

You do better in Augusta. So let me ask you, Echelon has some of the most accurate polling. You guys were one of the most five most accurate pollsters in 2022. Do you find this New York Times poll to be consistent with what you are seeing or, you know, it's one of the weekend or a little bit more? Let's just say exaggerated than the trend. Well, I think that, look, I'm going to be cautious and say it's a little good.

It seems a little good, but it's broadly consistent with the trends you're seeing, which is erosion of the nonwhite base of the Democratic Party, especially if they really go through with this and, you know, really make, you know, Joe Biden running. Right. So so I do think that it is it is broadly consistent. And, you know, maybe it's a maybe it's a couple points to to optimistic, you know, just being the cautious person that I am on some on on some of these polls. But but I do think that, you know, we should be paying attention very close to these numbers.

They are one more accurate than so on. It is is the New York Times CNN poll. Patrick, if you were a Democrat and giving advice to Democrats, what would you tell them in one year less than one year to fix this? They got it. They got a major problem. I think that, you know, you need to stop listening to the far left.

And, you know, it's it's happening right now with this Palestine. And I think that is emblematic of a broader problem is that they are not focused on the middle of the electorate. They are purely focused on how can we stop this believing in our base right now. But I think if they do it by going to the left, they're only going to further alienate that base, because that base of people is not these young liberal activists. It is African-American voters, is Latino voters. It is voters who have far more moderate views on issues.

And if they don't pay attention to that, you know, they're going to have the worst of both worlds. Patrick Raffini, check out his book, The Party of the People Inside the Multiracial Populist Coalition Remaking the GOP. Patrick, thanks so much.

Thanks so much, Charlie. There will be armies of hardouts voting for Trump in 24. Democrats have a problem.

I'm not saying we're going to win, but it's going to be within a couple thousand votes here, a couple thousand votes there. Get to work, everybody. Action, action, action. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us, as always, freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

Thanks so much for listening and God bless. When I grow up, I want to be offended by my co-workers and walk around the office on eggshells and have my words policed by HR. Words like grandfather, peanut gallery, long time no see, no can do. When I grow up, I want to be obsessed with emotional safety and do workplace sensitivity training all day long. When I grow up, I want to climb the corporate ladder just by following the crowd. I want to be a conformist. I want to weaponize my pronouns.

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