Gaza: What's The Solution? with Joel Pollak and Steve Baker

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That's why we are here. Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. Joining us now is Joel Pollack with Breitbart News. He does a great job.

Senior Editor-at-Large at Breitbart News and host of Breitbart News every Sunday at 7 p.m. Eastern. Joel, welcome to the program. I wish it was under better circumstances. What is your reaction about what happened this weekend?

Obviously, sadness and heaviness. How are we supposed to explain the intelligence failure? I mean, what is your working theory here?

It's perplexing. Well, I think that the failure was both by American and Israeli intelligence to anticipate that, first of all, Iran was going to want to trigger a new war in the Middle East. Keep in mind, the Biden administration has been negotiating with Iran to try to renew a nuclear deal. They just did a hostage deal where they gave Iran $6 billion.

So, the conventional wisdom in Washington was that Iran would not want to rock the boat and risk those negotiations by launching through its proxy another war. And then on the Israeli side, I think there was a sense of complacency because in previous weeks and months, there had been some skirmishes with other Palestinian groups. If you remember, there were several days of rocket fire from the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which is an Iranian group, and Hamas did not join the fight. Israel basically eliminated the rocket threat from Palestinian Islamic Jihad. It was a clean victory for Israel, and Hamas did not jump in.

So, the wisdom, such as it was, was that Hamas was too weak to fight Israel after being decimated in so many of the past conflicts, and that they preferred to simply roll the Gaza Strip, collect money, and rebuild probably for the next round of attacks, which might come in a year or two, but not tomorrow or on the Jewish holy day of Shmini Atzeret, which is the last of the high holy days. They managed to surprise Israel in other ways as well, and it's very interesting. I think it was a combination of low-tech and high-tech weaponry.

Low-tech in that I think they probably evaded signals intelligence by using written communication and word of mouth rather than phones and emails and other electronic signals. And then high-tech stuff because you look at the videos that have come out of Hamas using drones to take out Israeli observation posts, which made it a lot harder for Israel to see the attack as it was happening. You hear about communications jamming technology that was used by Hamas as soon as they broke open the fence or cut open the fence and then widened those openings with bulldozers and went after Israeli army bases in the area and prevented them from communicating with headquarters, even using cell phones apparently. So that kind of equipment comes from outside of Gaza. That's not homegrown in Gaza. If Gaza could produce equipment like that, it would be the next Singapore.

It would be Silicon Valley on the Mediterranean. Instead, that equipment probably came from Iran, and we know that's probably what Iran has been testing in the field with Russia. Keep in mind that Russia is using Iranian drones, and Iranian drones are no longer a joke. They're sophisticated enough to cause significant damage to Ukrainian forces, and they were able to destroy Israeli observation posts and to at least inflict some damage on Israeli armored capacity, that is tanks.

So Joel, a lot to unpack there. Israel is now saying they're going to invade Gaza. What would that look like, duration, time, casualties? This is not a simple operation in the slightest, considering the density and the urban makeup of Gaza. I think it will involve thousands of Israeli casualties and tens of thousands of Palestinian casualties. And unfortunately, that is probably unavoidable at this point, because the nature of the attack by the Palestinian terrorists against Israeli civilians in their homes, on their farms, women, the elderly, children, the nature of that kind of attack is to project an existential threat.

It's basically a message that we intend to murder all of you. So that's not something that Israel can live with, and Israelis are prepared to die to stop that from happening. You now have Israelis not just being mobilized and called up in Israel. There are Israelis flying home from all over the world voluntarily, not just ones who've been called up, but voluntarily showing up at their military units and saying, what can I do?

How can I help? There is an overwhelming response from around the world. There are flights that are packed leaving New York, leaving Miami, leaving places where Israelis have settled or where they work, and they're going back to Israel, and they're prepared to die in defense of the state of Israel. And that's because the nature of the threat is such that it is like the Holocaust. The Nazis did what Hamas is doing. They piled Jewish families, women especially, onto the backs of trucks.

They drove them to an uncertain fate, often to be abused and executed. And that is what Hamas is doing. For Jews around the world and Israelis around the world, watching this happen is like watching films of the Holocaust. It's unfathomable that could happen again, and Israel is not going to let it happen again.

The fact that Iran is applauding all this and grinning and celebrating is a sign that eventually there may be some effort to take out the Iranian regime, not necessarily in this conflict, but that is the source of all this. Because the Abraham Accords that President Donald Trump signed and initiated show us that there's no real reason that you can't have peace between Israel and Arab states, and there's no reason that Jews and Muslims can't live together. In fact, I was just in the Middle East. I got back from the United Arab Emirates a couple weeks ago, and I had a fantastic time. I was welcomed by Muslims, by Emirati leaders in Abu Dhabi, in Dubai, and there's a tremendous amount of friendship.

In fact, right here I have a little card that was given to me by someone from the Abrahamic Family House, which is a multi-faith worship facility that the government of the Emirates has built there. So there's no reason for there to be war other than the fact that Iran doesn't want there to be peace. Iran is the engine behind all of this. And the challenge for Israel is going to be how to go after Hamas and get rid of them in Gaza, effectively removing Iran's military asset in Gaza without Iran opening another front in the northern part of the country, that is to say on the Lebanese border, or doing other things, perhaps even attacking Jewish institutions around the globe. Right now, there's stepped up security at synagogues and Jewish institutions everywhere because Iran has in the past carried out terror attacks against not just Israelis, but against Jews around the world. How should Israel act to ensure it doesn't turn into a broader regional conflict? I was texting with somebody in Israel who's in the IDF, and he says we might have to go to war against Iran.

Is this a proxy war against Iran? Could this potentially become something even bigger and heavier in the region, or do you think it'll just be targeted potentially at Gaza? What does Israel have to do next?

Israel has to win in Gaza as quickly as possible while maintaining peace on the other fronts, not peace, but calm. Ultimately, there is going to be some kind of confrontation with the Iranian regime unless the Iranian people can remove it themselves. And under President Donald Trump, they were actually close to doing that. When Trump took out Iranian terror general Qasem Soleimani, the Iranian regime looked weak. They didn't really respond. They fired some cruise missiles, but they didn't actually kill any Americans. They are not as strong as they like to pretend to be. All they've ever done is take out innocent people in surprise attacks like this, whether on Israel or on Americans, and this is what they do. They're not that powerful. Their own people hate them. Iranians are probably the most pro-American people in the Middle East outside of Israel, and they would be willing, if given the opportunity, to overthrow their government. But the Iranian regime cannot exist in a peaceful Middle East. And so how that happens, I don't know.

When it happens, I don't know. But what Israel needs to do is win as decisively as possible in Gaza. They may have to go street to street. They may have to encounter booby traps and all kinds of other defenses that Hamas has built over the years.

They may have to bomb areas of Gaza so heavily that there are massive Palestinian casualties. And as unfortunate as that is, that is perfectly legal within the doctrine of international law. You'll hear people use the term proportionate a lot. It gets abused in every single war. But in international law, proportionate doesn't mean equal numbers of dead on both sides.

Proportionate means a number of dead proportionate to a legitimate military objective. And the legitimate military objective here is getting rid of Hamas. I don't think anyone can argue that they are in any sense allowable anymore in Gaza.

They have to be removed. And that means that they're going to have to be bombed. There are going to have to be battles on the ground. And Hamas likes to hide behind civilians. So there are going to be a lot of civilian casualties. This could all end if Hamas surrendered, if they stopped trying to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible, if they gave back the hostages.

But we all know that's not going to happen. So there are going to be bombs. There are going to be battles.

There are going to be terrible losses of life on both sides. Much more on the Palestinian side. And that is legal.

And that is to be expected. And I am OK with, as a person, never mind as an attorney with a background in human rights law, but I am personally OK with Israel doing whatever it has to do to secure its own future. You know, I'm OK with the United States nuking North Korea if we have to. And I'm OK with Israel doing whatever it has to do to maintain its own security. For 10 years, Patriot Mobile has been America's only Christian conservative wireless provider.

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That is patriotmobile.com slash Charlie or call 878-PATRIOT. They're capitalizing on statements by the United Nations and by some of the Arab countries that say they want a ceasefire right now. A ceasefire right now would mean that Hamas gets away with murder, literally, because it would allow them to escape any consequences for murdering up to 900, maybe more Israeli civilians and soldiers.

Most of them are civilians. And so a ceasefire is a non-starter. You know, Charlie, sometimes violence is the answer and this is one of those times. There is actually a military solution to this problem and Israel is going to apply that solution. I don't think there are going to be any more ceasefires. You know, sometimes you're just done talking. I agree and I don't come to that conclusion lightly because not all the time is violence the answer. You come and you go rape hundreds of women and kidnap them and parade them through the streets like savage animals you are.

Yeah, sorry. So here's my question. We only have four minutes on this, Joel. Convince our audience that Israel can ever control Gaza. As far as annexing it, there's 2.5 million people there. So let's say there's 100,000 members of Hamas.

Then what? Do they re-annex it similar to the West Bank, kick the Palestinian Authority out of control? What are some of the big ideas out there as a way to manage the 2.5 million population hotbox that is a terrorist breeding camp known as Gaza?

Well, let me say the unsayable. I'm not endorsing this, but it's a possible solution, which is simply to expel them from Gaza. You might call that ethnic cleansing and so forth, but the fact is that after the end of the Second World War, there were a million Germans kicked out of Poland. There were Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia. There was a decision made by the global powers that after Nazi Germany had used these populations to anchor their occupation forces and carry out atrocities against the victim nations of Europe, that these German populations had to go.

When India and Pakistan separated and had years of conflict, there were massive population transfers. It may be that Gaza is just unviable. So that's an option, I think, after all this. I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but you cannot have this entity next to Israel that is a constant source of terrorism. It's just not sustainable. Now, that's the outer limit, I think, of what might happen.

I don't think it's going to be something people consider, but it's there. It's a possibility, and frankly, I'm okay with it. I say that at the risk of being accused of all kinds of stuff, but if it comes down to ethnic cleansing, you want to cleanse my people, I'll cleanse yours first. I mean, that's where we are.

By the way, that's the going assumption of every citizen of the United States. We have nuclear arms and mutually assured destruction. That's how we ended the Cold War.

You have to let the enemy understand that they're going to be wiped out if they try to wipe you out. Clearly, the goal of Hamas is to wipe out Israelis and Jews. But I think more reasonably, you'll see the Israeli military move in and take operational control, allowing the Palestinian civilian population to stay in some kind of occupied status. Look, before Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, there were rocket attacks, there were terror attacks, but they were so much smaller than what happened after Israel pulled out. So, there will be attacks on Israeli occupation forces in a military occupation of Gaza if that happens. But it's preferable to having what exists today, which is mass terror attacks and rocket attacks from Gaza. But ultimately, you know, Charlie, a lot of this would be easier if the Iranian regime would just drop it. There's only one reason that Hamas is still in operation and it's because Iran funds it and arms it. And there's only one reason Hezbollah is there in Lebanon, it's because of Iranian weapons and money.

And you're hearing a lot of anguish in my voice as I describe the situation, a lot of anger. But again, Jews and Arabs can live side by side in peace. I've seen it myself.

I've experienced it. Jews and Muslims can as well, Christians, Muslims in the Middle East. The problem is that there are people with money and weapons who are fueling this conflict. And those people are the mullahs sitting in Tehran, directing all of this because ordinary Palestinians just want to go about their lives. They want to get jobs.

They want to improve their own futures. And they're being indoctrinated and armed by Iran. So ultimately, we're going to have to deal with Iran. One way you don't deal with Iran is by giving them $6 billion. Biden's strategy is a complete disaster. Trump's strategy is the only one that works, which is you isolate the Iranian regime, and you give the Iranian people hope and encouragement that they themselves can rise up and take care of their regime. I don't think that we want to commit American troops to that. But I do think it's possible the Iranian people hate their own government. Their government is corrupt.

It's brutal. They've been close to collapse many times before. Obama rescued them, Biden rescued them.

We've got to stop doing that. Joel Pollack, Breitbart.com. We'll be watching closely. Thank you for your analysis, Joel. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, everybody.

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And remember, retirement is about more than just investments. The Charlie Kirk endorsement of the Pax Financial Group LLC was given for compensation, which creates an incentive to recommend Pax's advisory services. You make sure that disclaimer is very clear. So check it out, paxfg.com slash Charlie. OK, joining us now is Steve Baker, Blaze contributor and independent journalist. So, Steve, welcome to the program. There's a lot of back story here. From what I understand, you have been able to get access to some of the January six footage and regarding Stephen Stewart Rhodes and all that. So walk us through your entire story, please.

Yeah, Charlie, thanks for having me. This very simply started back in October of last year during the first Oak Keepers trial, and there were five defendants in that trial. Of course, also, this was the Stewart Rhodes et al trial, and that trial presented for me as somebody that was sitting in the media room every day for nine weeks of that trial. Several examples where my radar went off because of things that were happening between the Department of Justice attorneys and the judge, as well as their attempts to suppress exculpatory evidence. And then it was actually October 3rd of last year, just barely over a year ago, there was an event in that trial where the government approached the bench and tried to suppress the inclusion of a couple of FBI interview documents related to one of the Capitol police officers who would then eventually testify in that trial about three weeks later. And there was quite a kerfuffle in that moment in the trial that really caught my attention because the prosecution was adamant that these documents should not be released to the public. And what was happening was there was a rogue attorney who was threatening or alleged to be threatening to release these FBI, what they call 302s. They were two different FBI interview transcripts. And as a result of that, the judge did something that I've never seen before. He actually addressed the assembled press and media pool down on the lower level of the courthouse and told us to tweet out a threat to that attorney and let him know that if he did, in fact, release those documents that he would hold him in contempt. Well, obviously, I wanted to know right then what was in those documents, and I did everything I could to get my hands on them. And I did eventually get copies of these documents and began the process of a year-long investigation into which ultimately revealed through my access to that 41,000 hours worth of video there at the Capitol that these officers did, in fact, perjure themselves in the trial.

So walk us through more details here. Is it true that the footage is available, the 18,000 hours, and how do we potentially get access to it? Yeah, they initially allowed, as you recall, they allowed Tucker Carlson's team to get access to that footage first.

That was earlier this year. And in fact, his producers called me and asked me what they should be looking for. I gave them a couple of tips and leads.

They used one of them, and they're two nights, so they only used two nights of that video in his reporting. And then subsequent to that, there was the access granted to Julie Kelly, Joe Hanneman from The Epoch Times, John Solomon, and myself. And essentially what Congress or the staffers there at the Oversight Committee subcommittee were using us for was guinea pigs to develop a system of process and procedures guideline where they would eventually open all of that up to the press at large. And they did do that just a month or so ago. They finally issued that guidelines and procedures, but now the pause button has been hit on that because there's no Speaker of the House right now, and so nobody's making any decisions.

And that opportunity has been temporarily paused until we learn who the new speaker is and what their new rules will be. So how do we then get access to all the footage and get it on the internet to have people to start go through it? Because I know other people that in their defense have been unable to get access to footage. Yeah, unfortunately, that's the one thing that they are not granting is full and total access to everything. As you recall, McCarthy, when he was campaigning for the speakership earlier this year, he promised that all of that footage would be released to the American people. And then, of course, because he was pressured because, quote unquote, security concerns and the like, that they changed their mind and then started the process of this limited access. So you actually have to apply.

You have to go through a process. There's an email address issued by Congress that you apply for access, and then you get a few hours per week if you're lucky enough to be granted that time and be scheduled in. But the reality is something you keyed on just a moment ago is that there are over 1700 cameras worth of footage from that day available in that treasure trove of video. But in discovery, the trial's defense attorney or the defendant's defense attorneys have only been granted about 650 cameras worth of access. So they are actually having to apply just like journalists are for time in that video room with only three consoles to even help develop and build their cases for their defendants. So, Steve, help me understand what is the next step then for Stuart Rhodes?

What happens? Because if the government did indeed perjure themselves, wouldn't that potentially weaken the government's case? Yeah, right now I have been in many, many long discussions with various Oak Keepers attorneys from that trial. I've had a lot of time with three of them specifically over the last week since we released this information about these two Capitol Police officers.

And obviously they're hot. They wish that they had had this information available to them a year ago during this trial. It was withheld from them. These actual cameras were withheld from them. They didn't have them because these cameras that we were given access to are located in what they call highly sensitive parts of the Capitol building. And so those were not available to them during their discovery process. And so there are talks right now between the various Oak Keepers defense attorneys to file emergency motions to get the attention of the judge, to get the attention of the Department of Justice and maybe get an accelerated appeal process so these circumstances can be presented to the court. So this opens up a bigger question.

How many of these defendants are really in kind of Soviet show trial type situations where there could be exculpatory evidence? Right. And another one of this is another question is how were the doors opened?

Because they could only be opened from the inside. I'm sure you've been curious about that. So the footage is just one part of this, though. The government could be potentially setting a standard or a precedent where appeal judges or appeal courts could be overturning some of these convictions. But the government doesn't seem to care.

No, they don't. I think that, like, for instance, in the case of this particular Oak Keepers trial, and there were three Oak Keepers trial and then, of course, the big Proud Boys trial earlier this year. But in those marquee trials, they got their pound of flesh, they got their notches and their gun belts, and they don't really care what happens in the appeal process at this point.

And as sad as that sounds, that's exactly the case. They had their celebratory moments. I mean, even after the first Oak Keepers trial, Merrick Garland himself went out to dinner and toasted the prosecution team after the jury came back with the verdicts that night. And this was recorded by Politico, so this was something that really did happen, that the U.S. Attorney General showed up.

Not to celebrate justice, but to celebrate really a, as you said, a Soviet-style show trial, kangaroo court, because that was ultimately what we're finding out was what was taking place. Now, that doesn't mean, Charlie, that there weren't bad people doing bad things that day. That doesn't mean that there weren't people that committed violence. It doesn't mean that there weren't people who did assault law enforcement officers.

In fact, I always say this. I was there myself that day. I saw bad people doing bad things, good people doing good things, and otherwise good people doing some really stupid things when they got caught up in the moment. So there's all manner of things that took place. And in certain circumstances, some of these people do need to get what's coming to them.

We'll say that. But on the other hand, there were specific incidences with specific of these defendants who were seemingly now framed up by the government in what I'm calling a star chamber that was convened back in early 2021 to target some of these groups, some of these quasi militia groups to take them out so as to create a narrative and to create a chilling effect against groups forming like the Oak Keepers that were mostly there. Well, in fact, almost entirely, the Oak Keepers themselves are former law enforcement, retired military. And when I say former, some of these are still current law enforcement and military that were members of that group. They had over 35,000 paid, dues paying members in that group. And of course, they effectively dismantled that and sent everybody scurrying to the corners and hiding now.

So they're not even functioning right now. So, Steve, one minute remaining, how should we then proceed to try to pursue justice and seek justice when it seems as if the government does not care about facts and instead throwing political dissidents in prison, basically for sport and for celebration? First of all, every single one of your listeners must contact their congressman. We must get all of this video released and we must demand justice.

We must demand speedy appeals for certain of these cases. And we have to make noise. And we're going to continue this process. Myself as a Blaze contributor, fortunately, I'm working with a larger bullhorn right now than I was even going back during the trial period. And so we're going to make a lot of noise about this.

And we have several more parts of this reveal coming out and showing the American people, in fact, that our own Department of, quote unquote, justice created false evidence, created and manipulated and served up false testimony against some of these January 6 defendants. Steve Baker, excellent work. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Charlie. Hey, everybody.

Charlie Kirk here. When the government used emergency edicts during COVID to restrict the gathering and worship of churches, three pastors facing the risk of imprisonment, unlimited fines and their own churches being ripped apart, took a courageous stand and reopened their doors in the face of a world that chose to comply. The Essential Church is a feature length documentary that explores the struggle between the church and government throughout history. The story uncovers those who have sacrificed their lives throughout history for what they believe in. Rediscover why the church is essential and how we prove this stand remains true from a scientific, legal and most importantly, a theological and biblical perspective. This is not your typical movie.

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So go to SalemNow.com right now. I do want to mention, because we've been obviously covering the Israel thing, there is another part that we have to cover here, which is that I stand 100 percent with Israel. But my first and foremost loyalty is, of course, with America and some American politicians, especially on the right. They got crazy talk going on here. You should always talk about America first, our borders, our sovereignty, 100 percent.

And yes, I'm really glad, I'm thankful that we spent the last couple hours talking about this unbelievably horrific issue in Israel. But you have some of these people that when they got to calm down, they listen to Nikki Haley here, OK, when she says that it's an attack on America. No, no.

Come on. That's an irresponsible thing to say. It's not an attack on America. You say Israel can defend itself. Israel should have our support. But to say that it's an attack on America.

Play cut for. But let's step back because I want the American people to kind of take this in for a second. Just imagine that here the Israelis woke up and communities were bombarded. Families were murdered. Women and children were taken hostage, dragged through the streets.

The elderly were taken. All of this has happened in front of everyone on top of thousands of rockets that hit Israel. I'm also going to play this next tape here, but some people in the Republican Party, Nikki Haley continuing, they're more nationalist about Israel than they are about America. And that's very strange. It is kind of weird to me that some politicians get really fired up about foreign countries more than what's happening in our own country.

I don't have that problem. Every day I talk about the disintegration of America. So, yes, today I was more than happy to spend our time talking about Israel, a country I love. I'm not a citizen of Israel. Obviously be under attack.

There's nothing wrong with that. Here's Nikki Haley saying that it's like America being under attack. And when she says finish them, finish them. I don't really know what she's talking. Play cut five. This should be personal for every woman and man in America.

Why? Because when they did this, when they did this surprise attack, when they took these hostages, when they murdered these families, they were celebrating. And what were they celebrating? They were saying death to Israel, death to America. This is not just an attack on Israel.

This is an attack on America because they hate us just as much. And I'll say this to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Finish them. Finish them. Hamas did this. You know Iran's behind it. Finish them.

They should have held to pay for what they've just done. OK, OK, OK. You've got to calm down. OK, you shouldn't talk like ravenous dogs.

OK, that that is not good. Is it possible, Blake or Andrew, that I'm the moderate in this situation? Is it?

Is it possible that I'm actually a moderate where for the first time I found a political position where I actually find myself living in nuance? It's amazing because I always get called a radical. I love Israel. I don't think that we should deploy American troops.

I think that's a mistake. I think that we should totally support Israel. But also, I think that these lunatics with their anti-Jew narrative and rhetoric and these these pro-Palestine numbskulls after 800 Jews are murdered.

I think that those people shouldn't even be in the country. So I guess you find myself in a happy middle. But I'm going to speak again. This Mike Pence stuff is like, bro, calm down, man. It's too much.

It's too much. And then you have Rashida Tlaib, who's like shrieking for a holy war on the other side. I guess I find myself in the middle here.

And the middle is very simple. Put America first. Put the country first. Mike Pence sent out this statement that was just, geez.

It is an absolute tragedy what has happened in Israel. And this is not for Trump. Trump has totally earned the ability to talk about this freely. But I will say this. That for those of you out there, the neo-cons, that get super fired up about foreign stuff and you never, ever talk about anything domestic, that's very weird to me. Very weird. Trump's not in that category.

This program's not in that category. But if you get like the most angry you get on TV of stuff happening abroad, that bothers me. Pray for Israel. It's going to be a bloody night and a bloody couple days.

The airstrikes are just the beginning, we're told. Email us as always. Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

Thanks so much for listening and God bless. Theodore Omen came to this country to find the American Dream. 70 years ago in 1953, Omen printed a limited number of these exceptional Constitution lithographs.

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