Is the Pope Catholic? with Dr. Taylor Marshall and Harmeet Dillion

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That is noblegoldinvestments.com right now. Hey everybody, it's The Charlie Kirk Show. Dr. Taylor Marshall joins us and so does Harmeet Dillon.

We talk about the Pope, we talk about the California GOP, and more. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Become a member, charliekirk.com, members.charliekirk.com. That is members.charliekirk.com. Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com and get involved with Turning Point USA at tpusa.com. That is tpusa.com.

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That's why we are here. Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. Joining us now is an excellent guest, Dr. Taylor Marshall, who is the most popular Catholic YouTuber and has a lot to say about what is happening with the Pope. Dr. Marshall, thank you for taking the time. I always want to make sure I get these facts right because sometimes there could be translation issues for what the Pope says. So let's just, outside of all the media fervor, all the rancor, what exactly was the Pope's position and or statement yesterday when it came to blessing same-sex civil unions? Well there's been a growing debate and it's really reached, I mean basically you have five cardinals of the Catholic Church who have written five requests asking the Pope to clarify his position on five key issues. One of those issues is the blessing of same-sex unions by clergy, by priests. Pope Francis has already said that you cannot have gay matrimony marriage in the church because that's between a man and a woman. So theologians have said, okay well if we can't have a gay marriage in the church, what if we have a same-sex blessing in the church?

And this is a big debate coming into a synod of synodality here in October and the Pope has been very careful about it but it seems very clear by whom he's appointed and the people he's listening to that he is starting to pave the way for there to be these same-sex blessings, not same-sex marriages. And of course this is creating a huge scandal amongst the over 1 billion Catholics on planet earth. So I'm not Catholic but I have great respect for Catholics and something that I've always admired about the Catholic Church, especially in recent years, is some of the strongest social conservatives are Catholic and there is this kind of promise of dogma that doesn't change, right? That we're going to protect the family no matter how much the culture tries to make us convinced. We're going to protect life, we're not going to go along with the trans-mafia, and honestly some of the most articulate people in public life talking about the family or yourself, Matt Walsh, Michael Knowles, right? All practicing faithful Catholics.

So this is an issue that I see on multiple levels. Let's take a step back, Dr. Marshall, remind us of some of the other troubling statements, not the internet, you know, misinterpretations that this Pope has made that is starting to pave the way to question and weaken Catholic dogma. Yes, I mean one of the key issues that the Cardinals are objecting to is they're asking the Pope, can doctrine change? As you know, the Catholic Church for 2,000 years says that doctrine can't change. Jesus gave us what's called the deposit of faith.

He gave it to the 12 apostles and they passed it down over time. It's codified in sacred scripture and in sacred tradition and it can't change. But the Jesuits, beginning in the 1950s, and Pope Francis is a Jesuit, beginning in the 1950s, they started saying, well, you know, we can evolve doctrine, we can evolve dogma, we live in an enlightened world, you know, we're not medieval, we're not ancient Romans, we're enlightened men, so let's reassess everything. And part of that was the Second Backing Council, which happened in the 1960s, they changed the liturgy. But you're right, Charlie, it is the fundamental Catholic belief that we do not change. And, you know, Protestants, they don't recognize matrimony as one of the seven sacraments.

We in the Eastern Orthodox say matrimony is one of the seven sacraments, baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, matrimony is in there. So to come in and to start to tinker with that and to say we're going to have two men or two women or why not have three or four, it's either Adam and Eve, man and woman, Christ and the church, or it's not. And these Jesuit theologians have been tinkering with this and saying, well, love is love and God is love, so why can't we bless love? And the problem is, is it simulates matrimony, a man and a woman coming together in the image of Christ and the church.

And it's gravely scandalous and it's confusing. And part of the problem is Pope Francis has recently hired this new Archbishop from Argentina, who is a Jesuit and who is, he wrote a book called Heal Me With Your Mouth, it's scandalous, it's horrible. And this theologian has been appointed by Pope Francis to rehaul, allegedly, some of these 2000, going back even into the Old Testament, these over 2000 year teachings from Almighty God in the Bible, and people are rightly upset. And now you're seeing in the church, cardinals, bishops, priests, and lay people saying enough is enough, quit trying to change our faith, leave it alone.

Yeah, and this has been a long looming battle and war that is now bubbling up at the top levels. And Pope Francis, coming from a Jesuit, you could even say a more Paulo Fieri, liberation theology type worldview. I'm not a Catholic, so I can speak freely. He feels like an infiltrator that is larping as a pope.

And I know that might consider be heresy in your circles, I don't care. Because compare him to John Paul, who was so strong against Marxism in favor of the family, all these things. I think the world is a much better place with a pope that is not trying to bring Marxism into the largest family of Christians that we know on the planet. I think that's a good thing for humanity. So build this out though, would you agree, at least in premise, that Pope Francis is introducing, I would call them unclean spirits, or even heretical ideas that are rooted in Marxism, critical theory, Paulo Fieri.

Talk about that. Yeah, I mean, I wrote a book in 2019 called Infiltration, and it tracks this 200-year trajectory of infiltrating the Catholic Church, it also has to do with the deep state, of, you know, we can't beat the Church from the outside because that just produces martyrs, let's just go and infiltrate, join the seminaries, join the religious orders, and work our way up the hierarchy. And that's precisely what they have done, especially since the 1950s and the 1960s. And you mentioned heresies, you mentioned evil spirits, I mean, just a few years back, Pope Francis brought this idol from South America called the Pachamama, and he brought it into the Church, he even placed it in Saint Peter's Basilica, in the Vatican, in front of the altar, which is over the tomb of Saint Peter, the apostle. This was gravely scandalous to the entire world because, as you know, basic teaching, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, is thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I mean, it is commandment number one, Charlie, like, this is not even a debate. And the fact that he would try to enculturate, that's what they do, in the name of enculturation, let's bring in this idol, this totem, and bring it into the Church, and somehow that will convince non-Christians in South America to somehow become Christian. And this is completely foreign to the teaching of the Bible, where you see Christ telling the apostles, go into the nations, baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them all that I have commanded you.

That includes the Ten Commandments, that includes thou shalt have no other gods before me. And like you said, Charlie, there's a communistic element with liberation and theology, that's sort of the theological version of socialism. There is this idolatry element, and now there is the tinkering with sacraments, and the tinkering with holy matrimony, and what it means to be a man and a woman, and ultimately, what is human sexuality. And again, I cannot express more to your audience what a huge scandal this is, not only for Catholics like myself, or you had mentioned, you know, Michael Knowles, or, you know, Walsh, think about the third world, think about the Asian Catholics, the African Catholics.

Which is the fastest growing area for Catholics in Africa, yeah, that's right. Absolutely, and it's interesting, the five cardinals that have objected to this, one is American, one is Mexican, one is German, one is African, one is Chinese. So you're hitting all the time, Australia's not in there, Cardinal Pell died sadly, but I mean, all the major continents, you have the most popular Asian cardinal, Cardinal Zen protesting, you have the most popular African cardinal, Cardinal Serra, you've got, I mean, this is becoming a global movement, and I believe that if Francis tries to move forward on this, you will see formal schism happening. What is that, so I mean, you mean like, can you impeach a pope? Like, I mean, I'm sorry for like the lack of understanding of like Vatican checks and balances, but what does that mean? So it's Catholic teaching that the pope has to be Catholic, I mean, that should be pretty obvious to most people, just like to be president, you have to be a United States citizen, that's basic. So this has never happened in the history of the church, but theologians like Saint Robert Bellarmine and others, Cardinal Henry Newman, they talked about how if a pope were to defect from the faith and become a manifest heretic, or just say, I believe in Buddha now, or I'm following Muhammad, that by ceasing to be Catholic, they would cease to be the pope. Now, the mechanisms for discerning that and executing that have never been done, and that's part of the controversy right now, but more and more people, I mean, recently there was a very prominent Catholic priest, Father James Altman, who came out and said, Francis isn't the pope, to the scandal of many people. You have Bishop Strickland, who's a great hero of the faith in Tyler, Texas, down the street from me, he's under investigation because he went out and protested the the trans thing that happened at the LA Dodgers over the summer, and has also been critical of some of these maneuverings of Pope Francis.

So you're starting to, there's kind of been an underground division, and now the cracks in the plaster, cracks in the sheetrock, are starting to manifest, and this could break open. And I'm curious, I understand enough to be dangerous, you know, how that would work, and then if would that person, is that person actually the Holy Father in Catholicism if they're not Catholic? And I'm really upset because Pope Francis took away one of my favorite jokes, where someone says, you know, Charles, are you hungry? And I say, is the pope Catholic? And now I can't say it because he's obviously not Catholic, right? So he took away one of my favorite jokes, because I mean, I'm just looking as an outsider, like he doesn't, at least in my personal understanding of what he's been saying, he doesn't espouse like basic teaching of the church. He seems far more interested in kind of going with the winds of social change and the narratives of the day, giving these long, I think you would call them encyclicals on climate change. It's like, what are you talking about?

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It's time to prepare for what's coming, mypatriotsupply.com. So, it's an unfair question, but I have to ask it, which is a hypothetical. What would it take for you or your fellow Catholic brethren to say, we're going to do something serious and we do, we no longer believe the Pope is the Holy Father.

I know that's a hypothetical, but what is the line? Has that been discussed in Catholic intellectual circles? This is probably discussed at coffee after mass in so many different places for the past several years.

When I go around, people ask me this question constantly. I get asked almost daily, what if he's not the Pope and if he's not, what do we do? And I think the layman's answer to that is, we have a canonical structure here and so I think just as if, you know, you believed O.J.

Simpson murdered someone, you can't create your own vigilante justice system. So, there is this patience of waiting it out and figuring out. And of course, if Francis were to go forward with gay marriages or women's ordination or to dogmatize liberation theology and say, we're all communists now, I think that would just strengthen the resistance movement for people to honestly assess and call together the cardinals of the Catholic Church. That is, I think, what we're going to do with the cardinals of the Catholic Church. That is, I think, most theologians and intellectuals think the cardinals of the Catholic Church would first warn and admonish the Pope, which I think has just happened over the past week, honestly. And then if there weren't repentance or clarification, then they would begin to ask the questions, well, are you a heretic?

Yes, you are. That means you're not the Pope. It's time to elect another one. And that seems to be the process that is lined out by ancient theologians and St. Robert Bellarmine, who's kind of the expert on the papacy.

That would be the direction to go. I don't think we could all just fragment into, you know, 10,000 different denominations of what we think Catholicism is. There would have to be a patience and there would have to be a canonical process, a trial, and then of course the election of a new Pope. And of course, all of this could be averted if Pope Francis died tomorrow or something like that, then of course we would be onto the process of having a new Pope and all this would be, of course, held for review.

I mean, there's over 2,000 years of church history. Has there ever been an instance where a Pope has been removed? There have been Popes who have resigned. Actually, the Pope before Francis, Pope Benedict XVI, he resigned. That was the first time in like a thousand years or something, right?

It was. It's very rare. The Pope before that was Pope Celestine. There was a case in which the Byzantine Emperor of Constantinople kidnapped a Pope and was placed in prison.

He ended up dying in prison. But there's never been a case where the cardinals of the church come together and go through a process that would look like a deposition. That has never happened. And there are some, you know, prophecies and things that have been discussed in the church of a bad Pope or of something like that. There have been the case of what's called anti-Popes. These are men who set themselves up as Popes in competition to real Pope. But this would be the first time where you don't have a Pope and an anti-Pope fighting each other. You just have one guy who is perhaps under investigation and some form of a deposition.

So we are in a unique situation and no one really has a clear way forward. But I think that the fact that you have five cardinals from five different continents representing the faithful all over the world who are sending what's called dubia, which is Latin for doubtful questions, like, hey, we got some doubts on what you're teaching here. Can you clarify this? They did that once this summer, and then they weren't satisfied with the answers. And they went back to Pope Francis and said, here are the five questions again, and we would like you to answer with the word yes or no.

No paragraphs, no sentences. Let us know, is this what you mean or not? Yes or no? And so it's pretty serious. And I don't know if he was expecting this to happen, but there is definitely a strong pushback in 2023. Really quick, Dr. Marshall, you have to answer this question. Somebody says, Charlie, I disagree with the guest. The Pope is infallible in all matters of church doctrine. We can't question that.

How would you respond to that? Well, in 1870, we had a council called the First Vatican Council, and it said the Pope is only infallible in faith and morals when he speaks ex catheter, and ex catheter is a fancy Latin term. It means when he speaks dogmatically in authority from the chair, from the seat, and it's very clear that he has to pronounce that he is speaking ex catheter. So Francis has never spoken ex catheter.

I don't know if he plans to. So the infallibility of the Pope is limited. It's only happened under a dozen times in church history. So Francis hasn't done that. And so those who would say, well, the Pope is always infallible on the weather and soccer games and whatever, that's just simply not Catholic teaching. That was clarified in 1870 at the First Vatican Council.

Dr. Taylor Marshall, excellent. We'll have you on again. I'm cheering for you guys that want the Catholic Church to stay rooted in scripture and teaching. I say this as an evangelical Christian. I am your number one supporter.

We are all Christians together, and we need to stand together against the Marxists and the apostates and these godless secularists destroying our culture and all that is good, true, and beautiful. We're with you, Dr. Marshall. Thank you so much. Amen. Thank you.

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If you're a consumer, join. Check it out. Download the Public Square app today. Michael who runs Public Square does a beautiful job. Good friend of mine, 100% behind him. Check it out today. Joining us now is Harmeet Dhillon, an amazing patriot, someone who I tried my best to get to run the RNC. Fell short.

Harmeet, thank you for taking the time. Give us some update about what happened at the California Republican Party meeting this last weekend. Donald Trump spoke. It received a lot of attention, but there was a fair amount of fighting in the committees. Tell us all about it.

Well, Charlie, thanks for having me. Every four years, California GOP, like most of the parties around the country, adopts a platform in anticipation for the national convention next year, and so we usually have a process where there are competing drafts that are submitted, and the platform committee, which consists of party leaders, including myself, get to vote on it. This year around, like in prior years, there was an effort to really water down the platform on a couple of points.

Abortion, traditional marriage, as well as our commitment to Prop 13, California's landmark tax law that keeps taxes low on property taxes. So we really had a concerted grassroots effort to challenge these watering down efforts on the platform, and it was kind of a grassroots and base versus establishment fight. And with a concerted effort, I'm proud to say that we defeated the effort to water down our platform and kept it conservative. But the reason I think this is important is with the national platform, a similar effort goes on every four years, and there are some folks who try and try their best to get onto the platform committee of their RNC convention just for purposes of watering it down, particularly on social issues. And so I want to make sure that conservatives around the country are aware of this and start making their plans to keep the platform conservative. So yeah, talk about how they were trying to strip the social issues. In particular, it looks like this article, California GOP rejects effort to strip abortion, same-sex marriage from the platform. Who are the ones that were pushing this?

Well, it's so interesting. So within the platform committee, which is up to 200 people, there's a drafting committee that is elected from the platform committee. And there was a circulated slate that was called the leadership slate that was basically a lot of social liberals in the party.

Some of these folks are my friends. We welcome their vote in the party. But in terms of what the platform is, the platform is not for going door to door and knocking on doors to convince unconvinced voters. It's for the base. It's for the volunteers. It's for our core conservative activists.

It's the heart. It's the constitution of the party, if you will. And so to water that down means that what you're trying to do is pander to the left or Democrat voters and not considering the expense to our base. And so, you know, for me, both ideologically, I am a conservative and that's why I'm in the party.

I don't think that trying to make ourselves Democrat-lite is in any way going to help us either win elections or be morally correct. And so I did lead this effort with a couple of other conservatives in the party. So even though the drafting committee produced this liberal draft, the grassroots of the party united. We had people in the room. We had a concerted effort. And by the end of the day, the morning of the vote, we had the legislative leaders in California, as well as three members of Congress on our side. And it really was a snowball effect. And the other side just kind of retreated and listified another day. I can guarantee you this will be back in four years.

Yeah. So, Harmeet, I just want to talk about California in general. It was notable with 10 or 12 or 15 years ago, California rejected the redefinition of marriage by ballot referendum. And then like 10 or 15 years later, you have the Republican Party trying to remove what the voters just a decade ago clearly said, you know, marriage should not be redefined. I understand that public sentiment has changed on the issue, but I don't think it's actually changed nearly as much as they think it has. I actually think and by the way, polling is showing that social conservatism is coming back in popularity. But Harmeet, we we're never going to win as Republicans if we think we think we could just continue to water down the essence of conservative truth and then somehow win as like Democrat light in Orange County.

Or can you talk about that? Because not too long ago, California sent a message to the nation that marriage was one man and one woman. Well, that was Proposition 8.

It was an epic fight. And what the, you know, sort of call it the reform wing of the party is saying today is, oh, well, this is outdated because the Supreme Court has ruled that you can't discriminate on this basis. And so, you know, look, the Supreme Court has ruled a lot of things over the years, including the Dred Scott decision, including, you know, some decisions that we look back on, Buck versus Bell and we disagree with.

This isn't necessarily in the same vein, but let's just say the platform is going to take a long while and the base is going to take a long while to get there to eliminate that plank. And if we ever did that, which I disagree with, it would definitely alienate a lot of our base and be suicidal. But this isn't the first time, look, I've had to fight with leaders in California who just want to be more popular and say, oh, let's go for a carbon tax and let's, you know, water down our commitment to anti-tax and other issues. Conservatives have to realize that there are forces in the party who, for their own reasons, want to use the party to validate their choices, their career goals, or what have you.

And this isn't the place for that. So in prior conventions, I've seen the same battle take place on socially liberal issues at the national convention. And there are people who campaign just to get on that, just to make a fuss.

It becomes a media spectacle and it is a distraction in our goal of winning elections. And so at the end of the day, I don't know how I, as an activist, convince people to get out there on weekends and join me, do the work that like our friend Scott Pressler does to get out there and register voters. If we're very similar to the Democrats, what's the point?

It's not motivating. So I think we have to draw those sharp distinctions just tactically, as well as do what is morally right for our party and for our own values. But also, you know, just from a tactical political standpoint, if you remove life from the party platform, who do they think is the base of so much of the activism? Pro-lifers compose, especially out of the churches, so much of the energy. Just look at Pastor Jack Hibbs, who has done so much to help retake Chino and try to flip state senate seats. California has some of these massive churches and to try to say, we're going to remove a position that, honestly, 40% of the state of California believes.

I don't care what they say. I mean, I'm not saying it's a majority, but that's a pretty significant remnant, which is your activist base. It's perplexing to me. Harmeet, let's look at another place where there's a ton of infighting. What is your take right now? What's happening in the U.S. House and how we should think about that? Well, look, you know, I think it's a question of promises made and promises kept. There were a number of promises made by Speaker McCarthy to win his leadership position, and some of those promises were made publicly, and I think some of those promises were made behind closed doors. And where you get into power making certain promises and then certainly the people you made them to don't feel like they've been honored, then you get this kind of a discord.

But I would have to step back and say, at the end of the day, you have to play a game of chess here, not checkers, and look a few moves ahead. And where does this leave us as a party? So that's the sort of reality of politics is a lot of things go wrong. A lot of promises are made, but you have to look at whether you're handing power and control to the other side before you make that move. So I'm watching it with interest.

No promises were made to me. I'm sympathetic to holding our leaders to the highest possible standard. I'm more sympathetic to making sure that Democrats don't take control of this country.

People are suffering badly enough as it is. Harmeet, talk about how do you see Republicans starting to improve their mentality for ballot chasing, election integrity, especially in the key states that we need to win? We are seeing that for sure.

Certainly around the country, people are adopting this rhetoric and this effort in the party. There also are a lot of activists who are concerned because to be frank, even if we chase ballots and even if we get them all in, which is a very important part of the equation, the other part of the equation is counting them accurately. Who counts them?

How are they counted? And is there due process and the ability to challenge? When you have a federal government that is literally imprisoning and threatening to imprison and indicting lawyers who simply ask questions in court, you are really gutting the integrity of that process.

So we as a party have to fight back against that and defend those lawyers. We have to also in the front end get those ballots into the system. And then in the middle of that process, we have to make sure that we have all our eyes and ears on counting. If we're not allowed to count and get that commitment in advance, we have to go to court and make sure we have the right to count, that the count is accurate and that there's a remedy at the end of the day. All of those steps are important.

Nothing can be left out of that equation. Harmeet, Dylan, thanks so much for joining. We are behind you a hundred percent.

Thanks so much. Hey, Charlie Kirk here. If you guys love this program and you want to support this program, if we have impacted or blessed your life in any way, I want to tell you about a new thing that we are starting it up. First of all, if you have supported us at charliekirk.com slash support, nothing to worry about, you guys are going to be moved on over. If you want to support us even more and say, hey, I want exclusive content. I want to talk to Charlie directly.

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Yes, there's going to be a lot of goodies, a lot of engagement, a lot of fun stuff, but even more than that, if you feel moved and compelled that our show is impacting you and impacting the world, it would mean a lot if you became a member at members.charliekirk.com. I was asked a question yesterday by a young man in a mask and he said, Charlie is there anything good you could say about liberals? He meant leftists, but I answered the question.

I said, you know what? They fight way harder than we conservatives do. They just do. They're not afraid to use political power. They want it way more than we do.

They play to win. So while Donald Trump is facing 500 years in federal prison with Jack Smith, he's facing life imprisonment in Georgia. The documents case and Alvin Bragg to add on top of it, they're trying to take all of his wealth that he built, that he earned. Understand what is going on with this New York civil fraud trial. This is the American dream on trial.

That's what this is. This is way bigger than Trump. This is the promise of earned success on trial. Wall Street Journal writes, what a ridiculous headline, Trump fumes as fraud trial starts new phase of legal peril. Can someone tell me who he defrauded exactly?

They say that he reaped 250 million dollars in ill-gotten gains. Basically, this is the lesson is that if you're rich and you run for office, or use something like that, they can now use the power of the courts to just take your stuff away. Just another example of how we are living in a third world country. This is not a free country anymore. It pains me to say that.

This is not a great country that does stuff like this. And the judge who's doing this smiles for the cameras. Look at this. It's his big day. He takes off his glasses. Smile for the cameras, dude. Now you're a big deal. This is him in 2015, essentially saying that if a jury doesn't do what he wants, he just overrules the jury.

Play cut 38. Now I'm going to say something controversial, even while I'm being taped. Juries get it wrong a lot, but I've had situations where like, oh my, my heaven's sake, how could they have thought that?

I have a tool that I can deal with that. It's called jury notwithstanding the verdict, judgment notwithstanding the verdict. I can say there is no possible way that a reasonable jury would have reached that conclusion. And all right. Am I following the law or am I making law?

Okay. I'm following law. I'm an impartial referee, but it's hard to factor out my own emotions. I got a text message from a New York attorney this morning.

Let me read this to you. Someone who's actually argued cases in front of him. I argued a case in front of him a few years back. In my case, he told me, I don't care about the facts.

I just care about what I think happened. I, the lawyer, kept nailing the other side of specific statements, what the parties had done, how they committed themselves, the oral agreement, et cetera. The judge kept saying he doesn't care. The whole case was reliance on an oral agreement. At the end of the case, after losing, approaching the bar, the, the judge says you're an excellent attorney, but never represent a client like that again. So basically he decided he didn't like the client.

He just made a judgment in accord with the position without caring about the actual facts of the law. This is a top level attorney in New York, like top, top, top. So this is who Trump is in front of. While he has all this other stuff, and it's not enough, by the way, this is never going to stop. This is never going to stop unless Republicans start to use political power to go after Democrats. There's not a single Republican AG going after any of their groups, SPLC, BLM, nothing. They're going to try to gag Donald Trump to try to stop him from speaking out. Meanwhile, where is the opposition party? The opposition party is doing what many of you want them to do. And who am I to say you're wrong?

You guys have been betrayed and lied to. I'm just asking the question, is it a good idea? That's all I'm asking. I'm not even saying you're wrong. So the House, we're going to be without a speaker.

That's basically a guarantee. So that cake is baked. The entire Republican party statewide is just sitting on their hands, hoping for, waiting for the storm to pass. You got Bannon, that's going to go to federal prison soon. O'Keefe, that's been investigated. You got Tucker off the air.

Yeah, not a good time for the opposition party as the revolution continues and our freedoms disappear. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us as always. Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

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