America's Cultural Revolution with Chris Rufo

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And he joins us for an in-depth conversation. Email me freedom at charliekirk.com and get involved with Turning Point USA, tpusa.com. That is tpusa.com. Start a high school or college chapter today at tpusa.com. Deeply appreciate all of you that get involved with Turning Point USA during our kind of chapter drive, you could call it, tpusa.com. Buckle up, everybody.

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That's why we are here. Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. We have a great guest for the full hour, really smart man, Christopher Rufo, author of a very important book that you should purchase, America's Cultural Revolution by Christopher Rufo. Christopher, thank you for joining the program again. The subtitle of the book is How the Radical Left Conquered Everything.

I have been encouraging our audience. It's about Mao. It's about Mao. It's about Mao.

You know, kind of in politics we talk about Stalin or Hitler or Mussolini, I think, too much. Mao doesn't get as much attention. Before we talk about America's Cultural Revolution, catch us up to speed about Mao's Cultural Revolution and what can we learn from it and how does it apply today? Well, Mao understood. You know, Mao was of course the great Chinese communist military hero who led the communist forces on their long march and then conquered the country, established a Marxist-Leninist state. But what he realized by the 1960s was that leveling the economy, reshaping everything on an economic front and a political front was not enough. And that in order to get the true communist utopia, he believed, you had to also level all attachments to the prior culture. You had to really wipe out the connection between the people and their cultural history and replace it with left-wing Marxist ideology, which then became known as Maoism, famously made concrete in his little red book of quotations that was spread around the country at that time and still to this day.

And in America, though, what's happening is something very similar. The radical left realized that they could not bring a socialist Marxist working class revolution to the United States. In fact, most middle class Americans and working class Americans were totally against that kind of movement dating back to the 60s and 70s. And so they said what we have to do is infiltrate the institutions of culture and turn those great institutions against the American people to change how they think about their past, their present in order to influence their future. And so now you're talking about America's cultural revolution. When did it start?

And we could talk about how they've conquered everything as you throughout because your book is super smart and you make a lot of great points. When would you say was the beginning of America's cultural revolution? The beginning point is actually quite clear. It's in the year 1968. That was when the so-called new left came to prominence. You had student activists and left wing intellectuals mobilizing in the universities at the same time that you had what was thought of as the underclass mobilizing through riots in America's cities, more than 100 different cities around the country. And this is the genesis of this coalition that has stuck around to this day. You have the intelligentsia working ideologically, trying to reshape people's opinions, attitudes and beliefs. And then you have the streets, the inner cities, what was called the lumpen proletariat, the people at the fringes of society mobilizing in a physical and violent way. And so what you saw established, that basic dynamic in 1968, all of a sudden you fast forward 50 some years to 2020 with George Floyd and you see it emerging again. You have the editorialists at MSNBC and the elite left wing media working with the BLM movement that was really mobilizing people to violence in America's cities.

It's the same pattern over and over and over. These folks have been doing it not by accident, but very deliberately. They had a plan to get the institutions to march all the way through America's prestige economy and then to turn these ideas on using events like the death of George Floyd as a focal point in their campaign. So in the book, I'm really glad you start chapter chapter one, Herbert Marcuse, the father of the revolution. This is a name that most Americans aren't familiar with.

Politically involved people would maybe know Saul Linsky, right? Maybe Antonio Gramsci, but Marcuse, elderly philosopher, took the dialectics of liberation, you write. What did he believe? What is the Frankfurt School? And I'm told, Christopher Rufo, by the media that the Frankfurt School is a conspiracy theory.

Christopher Rufo. Yeah, I guess it's a conspiracy theory, but it's quite interesting because left wing intellectuals prior to maybe 2015, 2016, they celebrated what they called Western Marxism or cultural Marxism. And they said that that was a line of thinking in the academic literature that was highly prized at the time. And then all of a sudden, once it became well known and it became unpopular because these ideas are insane, then they said, no, no, no, we can't talk about that anymore. That's a conspiracy theory.

And they tried to take all their own work and kind of hide it in the corner. But Herbert Marcuse is really important and his name should be just as prominent as Saul Alinsky's name. And I think he's actually more important because while Saul Alinsky was a master tactician, he knew how to play the game of activism at the tactical level. Herbert Marcuse was really the intellectual godfather of the modern left.

He realized that the traditional Marxist revolution was a failure. He looked at the Soviet Union and realized that that could not work, wasn't working in the Soviet Union and wasn't working anywhere in the West. And so all of the ideas that Marcuse originated, the ideas of the new left, the idea of the high-low coalition, the idea of changing cultural perceptions in order to change politics, the idea of using extra parliamentary power, meaning street activism and the threat of violence in pursuit of political activism, the idea of repressive tolerance, meaning repressing certain ideas, all conservative ideas in places like universities, and forcing left-wing ideas into the discourse. All of those ideas that you see all around us were already written about, thought about, and originated and perpetuated by Marcuse in the late 1960s. And so if you want to understand our current moment, you have to understand this man, you have to understand his ideas, and you have to understand his strategies for achieving power. So Marcuse's most well-known work is one-dimensional man, of course, Eros and Civilization. He is the godfather of the American left, but more specifically, postmodernism, which really tries to deconstruct this idea of truth. And it's funny that you say one of your lines, and it's totally correct, that he saw that it wasn't going to work in America, and that means by definition there's a standard that they're judging things by, which is not very postmodern of them. So talk about how the truth, or the idea of any truth, is at odds with Marcuse's postmodern beliefs that are now being jammed through our universities and educational institutions.

Well, I would trace the lineage slightly differently. I think Marcuse is better described as a representative of neo-Marxism, so moving away from that orthodox Marxism that believed in class conflicts, the material dialectic, that the clash of economic forces was leading towards this utopia. Marcuse, I think, really is better described as a neo-Marxist who believed that societies were more complex, that you had to influence cultural attitudes. I think that he actually, though, in fairness, and I actually have a grudging respect for the man after having studied him for researching this book, I think he would be a bit distraught at this idea of total relativism of truth, of morality, and of even the language that we use. I think the postmodern idea becomes grafted onto Marcuse's theories later in the late 1980s and 1990s, certainly influencing the work on gender. So Marcuse, in some ways, was actually the last honest Marxist, in my review, in my reading of him.

I think that he really had a genuine belief. His ideas were mistaken, they led to disaster. But once those ideas started to fail, you see postmodernism come in and start to fill in the gaps to say, well, the Marxist ideas aren't working and therefore maybe truth is relative after all, maybe we can deconstruct the very structures of society, that's how we'll get it to finally work. The postmodern ideas are a nihilistic reinterpretation of Marcuse's Marxist ideas. And so you see the progression that's leading more and more in the direction of nihilism to what you have in BLM. BLM is a reborn version of the Black Panther Party. The Black Panther Party was idealistic, the BLM is deeply cynical. They looted the organization, they took all the money, they ran. These folks are a cynical, truthless reinterpretation of that old 70s idealism. Yeah, ideologies decay as they fail. It goes through multiple iterations and they get more extreme and they get lesser, uglier versions of their former self, where they become either more cynical or predatory or they even become outright unhinged, which is what we're living through.

Christopher Rufo is the author of the very important book, America's Cultural Revolution, buy it right now, How the Radical Left Conquered Everything. Question, why are so many people buying emergency food right now? Answer, as tensions continue to escalate, our fragile food supply will break again.

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PrepareWithKirk.com. Christopher, I want to emphasize or focus on chapter three, which is from Mr. Rudy Duchka. I think I say that right. The long march through the institutions. What is the long march through the institutions and how do we counter it? I don't want to get too much into the how do we counter because you have a whole part of that at the end of the book. Let's just focus on what is the long march through the institutions.

The long march through the institutions is the single most important concept for modern conservatives to understand because it is really the linchpin of left-wing political practice. In the 1970s, the Marxist-Leninist revolutionaries had been defeated. Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover had dismantled their organizations. They were deeply unpopular.

They were totally scattered. It seemed like when Nixon won 49 states in 1972 that conservatives were on a path to permanent victory. The left-wing activists at the time, particularly Rudy Duchka in conversation with Herbert Marcuse, said we have to come up with a new way of attaining power. They looked to Chairman Mao who conducted a long march in China during the communist revolution.

They said we have to do the same thing but peacefully. We have to infiltrate all of America's existing institutions, also in European countries, but in this case in the United States. We have to get people that can get into the media, into the academia, into K-12 schools, into government bureaucracies, learn how to actually administer the organs of cultural production and then bring our ideas from the outside in and avoid the democratic process.

That's why it's an infiltration. It's extra parliamentary. They said well, we'll just get into the institutions and bring our ideas. They did this perfectly, patiently, and they did it over the course of 50 years. And so what they did is they started in higher education. They got into K-12. They got into HR departments. And then all of a sudden in 2020, people looked around and they said, wait a minute, why is every institution in my life suddenly posting the black square and pushing CRT?

The answer is the long march of the institutions. They executed it brilliantly, flawlessly, patiently, and that's why things are the way they are today. Yeah, I mean, the Floyd death reaction was this cultural Pearl Harbor. And don't take me out of my words, media matters, meaning it was like shock and awe. And then the cult, it was like ready, set, go, right?

Can you build that out, Christopher? Because all of a sudden at that moment, all these sleeper cells came out and were looking around like, oh my gosh. Like you remember like pre Floyd, post Floyd basically. And it was as if the veil was off. And can you also just add a little bit that the only way forward is through, like there's no going back.

It's like full acceleration. Now it's time. We must press forward. Yeah, that's right. And really the Floyd movement, the kind of Floyd moment rather, was basically a recapitulation or a reanimation of the principles of 1968. They saturated the language about white supremacy, systemic racism, white privilege, starting in about 2015. That became the discourse on the left. I mean, it really saturated all of the thinking on the New York Times op-ed page and other places.

And then you had COVID, which increased the pressure on people psychologically. And then you had the moment of George Floyd's death, which we've known since the Black Panther Party in the 1960s. Images of police brutality are the number one way for left-wing radicals to recruit, to build power, and to foment violent revolution in the streets. They said it rather very clearly in the 1960s. Our number one recruiting method for the Black Panther Party is by baiting the police, goading them into violence, and then turning the narrative against them.

Within the age of smartphones, the speed of that happened even more quickly. But then what happened was really brilliant on their part politically, to give them credit. In the 60s and 70s, the government, the law enforcement agencies, the corporations, even the New York Times was against the left-wing radicals, was against the Black Panther Party. But in 2020, everything had changed.

Universities, school, media, churches, New York Times op-ed page, all knelt before the ideology of BLM. And that was the moment when they revealed this change. They had conquered the institutions from within.

Everything had changed in that moment. And what I try to do in the book is explain exactly how we got there. Because as you said, we cannot defeat this movement unless we understand it, but we also cannot go back to the status quo of the past. Conservatives have to roll up their sleeves and get ready to fight, because the only way out is through. The only way out is through is exactly right.

I want to say there are some positives on the landscape, and you deserve a lot of credit for this, Christopher. The Daniel Penney situation on the subway could have turned into Floyd 2.0. They tried.

That wasn't police brutality, but that's like angry white macho man in a subway vigilante justice-type archetype, which can work. And it didn't. We didn't fall for the bait. We held the line. A couple days later, Wall Street Journal opinion says, free Daniel Penney.

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Connect two things together. The Polfieri-Marxification education deal, also with this kind of like anti-white CRT pathology. Christopher Rufo. Well, I mean, this has been something that has been around the academic work and around the ideological work for many decades that exploded into prominence. But the origins of it are actually pretty simple. You have the Brazilian Marxist educational theorist Paulo Freire, who is really the patron saint of modern American graduate schools of education. He was an unrepentant Marxist. This guy was going around to Marxist-Leninist regimes and third world countries in Latin America and in Africa and reshaping their education system, creating this Marxist propaganda. But he realized that it wasn't working in the United States.

You couldn't foment a class-based revolution from workers against the factory owners, for example, in the United States. And so what they did was quite brilliantly say, OK, well, where are the weak spots in American society? And they put their finger on race. And of course, it's a weak and sensitive spot because we do have a history of racial injustice in the United States.

That's just a simple fact. But what they did is they said that we can exploit it and we can make whiteness the problem. We can whip up resentment, envy, hatred, destruction on behalf of certain segments of the population. And then very crucially, they can create the intellectual apparatus to manipulate the guilt feelings of white Americans. And so they create this idea of white privilege, white fragility, internalized white racial superiority, the problem of whiteness. What they do is they problematize white racial identity and then use an emotional manipulation techniques to manipulate people. They first started in the universities where they tested out these theories. And then they moved them into the K through 12 to the point where, as I've shown through my investigative reporting, as I detail in the book, they're taking white kind of problem of whiteness style theories and they're imposing them on your kids in elementary school all the way down to kindergarten.

And so this is the transmission belt. This is how they do it. They work on these ideas behind the scenes in academia. They mainline them into our institutions and then they impose them on your kids without your permission, without your knowledge. Fortunately, we've exposed it. We're starting to push back.

We're getting this poison out of the schools. But there's a long way to go. Yet now we now we need the long reverse march to the Constitution. I could do that through the institutions to restore the Constitution. So Christopher Rufo, your book America's culture revolution. I want to spend the most amount of time now that we've established the problem, which is seemingly endless because I want to just remind people.

I chuckled when I read it because it's so true. Christopher Rufo, America's culture revolution, how the radical left conquered everything. OK, well, now that we got that established, how do we take it back? How do we launch a counter cultural revolution?

And that is the conclusion at the end of your book. The the counter revolution to come. Christopher Rufo, how do we win? How do we stop the cultural revolution? How do we defeat these people?

Christopher Rufo. Yeah, I mean, the fundamental question boils down to this. What do we do when all of the prestige culture making institutions have been captured? What levers of activism, of politics do we have available to us? And the good news is that as conservatives, we have the most powerful lever imaginable in our control in many places, meaning the power of democratic legislation. And so what we have to do is really revive the democratic structures of our country. And in states like Florida, Texas, Tennessee, Idaho, some of the Carolinas, we have democratic majorities in the legislature. We have the governor's mansions. We have to start a counter revolution retaking these institutions, recapturing institutions and reorienting them towards our values.

And what that requires is for us to have a very simple insight. Institutions are governed according to a single set of values, and it's going to be their values or our values. We should not have any hesitation to say that if we have a majority of people that vote for this set of values, we have a majority in the House and Senate and the governor's mansions and state legislatures that we should say unapologetically. Our public universities, for example, should be oriented towards the true, the good and the beautiful, not diversity, equity and inclusion. And we have to govern that way as if we really mean it. We have to install good people as university presidents. We have to appoint great boards of directors. We have to hire faculty to balance out the faculty ratio. That means hiring more conservative faculty. And then we have to give students and parents an avenue to send their kids to colleges that affirm and reflect their value as citizens. Because, look, these are taxpayer funded institutions.

Why do they act against the taxpayers? We have to fundamentally disrupt that. And the good news is all it takes, at the beginning at least, is the courage to legislate, the courage to reform, the courage to transform these institutions. And then the backbone, the strength, the courage to say no when people try to subvert them anti-democratically. And the courage, the strength and the fortitude to say these are the new standards. These are how our institutions are going to be governed.

And if you don't like it, find somewhere else to go. You write here beautifully, if the end point of these critical theories is nihilism, the counterrevolution must begin with hope. The principles of the society under counterrevolution aren't oriented towards sweeping reversals and absolutes, but towards the protection of the humble values and institutions of the common man, faith, family, work, community and country. The intellectuals and activists of the counterrevolution must arm the population with a competing set of values, spoken in language that exposes and surpasses the euphemisms of the left wing ideological regime.

Excellence over diversity, equality over equity, dignity over inclusion, order over chaos. In order for that to happen, Christopher, and you've been attacked by every major outlet, including, you know, the low IQ moron, Joy Reed, who had you on the program. I thought you did very well. And she's like, oh, there's no CRT.

There's just the Christopher Rufo theory. I thought you handled it so well. We also must change our temperament. Yes, we must be positive. We must be cheerful, Christopher, but we also must not care what they call us. Talk about that in your own personal experience, because you've been attacked by everybody, as I have as well. But you continue onward when you don't allow their criticisms to hurt you. You actually get stronger.

Christopher Rufo. Yeah, that's right. And I think I learned something very important after I went through the fire for a number of months. And then, you know, over the course of a couple of years is that you have to submit to your critics in order for your critics to have power over you. You have to internalize their view of you, their criticism of you, their hatred of you, their image of you. And if you have the inner strength to fundamentally reject it, to define yourself, to know yourself, to have confidence in yourself, nothing they do can touch you. And once you get through that initial fear, that initial anxiety, that initial attempt to destroy you and to define you, and you come out on the other side stronger, more confident, more optimistic, more buoyant, more courageous, you realize that all of these people that are shooting arrows at you, they just bounce off. They bounce off, they bounce off, and actually they make you stronger, because you're demonstrating to people your strength in the face of your critics.

And so I tell them to bring it on. Criticize me, come after me, do whatever you need to do, because I know that they cannot get to the most important thing, which is what I think about myself. And so if we want to win, we have to have that same kind of attitude. We have to know who we are, what we believe, what we're fighting for. And you can never submit to your critics.

You can never let them define you. And it doesn't matter what anyone else out there thinks about you, what they write about you, what they say about you. I know what we're fighting for is good. I know what we're fighting for is true. I know what we're fighting for is beautiful. And if we can communicate that with the requisite aggression that's required, I know we're going to win over the people, and I know we're going to establish better institutions, and I know we can dispatch our opponents from the positions of power that they currently occupy.

And when we replace those administrators of our cultural institutions with people that are aligned with our mission, I know that we're going to deliver victories for every family that's anxious about what's happening in our institutions. We're going to protect them, we're going to offer them a better way, and we're going to give them something that they want, but they've been so far perhaps too scared to advocate for themselves. And you said it great, submission is their life force. They gain energy when we submit to them. And in fact, it's very Maoist, which is public humiliation and constant, every knee shall bow to their ideological intellectual regime.

I hate to use their language, but resistance really is necessary. In the book, you also, I mean, so you talk about recapturing institutions. Christopher, how should we think about building new ones?

How should we balance entrepreneurialism and starting new stuff with recapturing things that we used to control? How do we think about that, Christopher Rufo? Yeah, I mean, I think we need to first start with the recapturing of our public institutions using democratic power.

But beyond that, you're absolutely right. We have to start new institutions. And one of the examples that I discuss in the book, and I think it's really the bright spot, is the classical K-12 movement, which is the fastest growing style of education in the United States. There are hundreds, if not now thousands, of these schools.

And the mission is pretty simple. It says in our period of unprecedented cultural revolution, we have to go back to the founding. We have to go back to the culture of the Greeks and Romans, the culture of the Bible, the culture of the founding fathers. We have to unearth those eternal principles, and we have to then teach them to our kids in a way that's new, fresh, relevant, and helpful to them. And so I know that that's what I'm doing with my own kids. I see tremendous value, and I look at the curriculum that they're studying, and I think, wow, I wish I had this as a kid.

This is a gift that we're giving them. These are secret insights that for so many generations have been lost that we're now recapturing, reinventing, and rediscovering. So that's the idea of saying, you know what?

If you want to go send your kid to the public school that has terrible test scores, that maybe is a dangerous place, poor disciplinary record, that's pushing CRT, that's pushing radical gender theory, that might transition your child without your knowledge and your consent, go ahead. But if you want to do something better, if you want to do something that's rooted in eternal values, if you want to do something that's going to lead your child to flourishing as a human being, this is what we've built for you. That's the kind of competition, that's the kind of trade-off, that's the kind of distinctions we need to be making. And it's not just going to happen by complaining about Bud Light or thrashing Disney, which I think is great, we should do both of those things, but we have to offer something better. We have to build it, and then only in that process of creation and creativity will we really have the power and the strength to overcome the institutions that we see all around us today.

So Christopher, you do a lot of traveling out of talking to groups. If there was one either misconception and or opinion that is held by the traditional rank and file, let's just say parents' rights activist, that you seek to clear up or add clarity, what would that be, Christopher Rufo, in this project of trying to launch a counter-revolution? I think the most important thing that we have to move past and really understand as conservatives is the Reaganite notion that the government is the problem, therefore we have to have reduced the size of government, we can't take an activist role within government, we should shun government service and really just leave the state alone. It's illegitimate to shape or influence the operation of government.

Look, I agree in principle. I would love to have a much smaller state, I would love to have universal school choice like you do down in Arizona in every state, but what this has done is made conservatives complacent about governing, about leading, about statesmanship, and we need to have leaders in our movement that are saying, hey, you know what, if we're going to have a public school system, if we're going to have public universities, we should have not only a seat at the table, but we should have the top seat at the table. We should have strong principled conservatives that have the best interest of the public at heart as university presidents, university trustees, K-12 school commissioners, K-12 school board members. We have to get involved in governing the institutions and I think that we can't simply adopt a posture of libertarian complacence. We have to get activated, we have to revitalize the democratic structures, we have to have people running for office, joining organizations like Moms for Liberty, Turning Point, getting involved in legislative campaigns, because look, the public schools and public universities control between 75 and 90 percent of our education systems between the higher education and K-12, and so we have to get active.

We can't just concede them to our opponents. We have to take control, we have to take responsibility, we have to prioritize statesmanship and governance once again. America's cultural revolution, Christopher Rufo, is doing yeoman's work. So Christopher, I always try to end these interviews about books the same way because you put so much work into it. Is there anything we did not cover that you'd like to speak about or anything that you want to re-emphasize that we did not cover enough? I think what's really important in the book and really what I tried to do is speak to all of those people who after 2020 looked around them and said, you know, our country is unrecognizable. All of a sudden, all these institutions are pushing CRT, are pushing gender theory, are pushing this orthodoxy, whether it's at school, at work, in my university, anywhere where you spend time and shape your life. And so what I'm trying to do with this book is to not only give people a sense of the history, how things got to where they are today, but also give them the information, the language, the concepts, and the power to start fighting back in their local communities. That's how the Cultural Revolution will be defeated.

That's what we're doing. As you said, this is the number one book on Amazon right now in all categories. It's a number one national bestseller. So I would just say to all of the people listening, buy this book right now. This is going to be everything you need to know to explain what's happening around you and start fighting back.

If you care about this country, if you care about the future for yourself, for your kids, this is going to be a valuable tool for you, and that's why I wrote it, and that's why I think people are responding so greatly. One minute remaining, Christopher. Are you starting to see the progress or the momentum, at least since you've started your public commentary, let's say post-Floydapalooza?

One minute remaining. Absolutely. President Trump banned CRT after I exposed it in the federal government. Twenty-two states have banned CRT in K-12 education. And governors in Florida and Texas and other states are abolishing DEI offices and universities, starting the process of recapture. We're developing prototypes for winning the culture war at a substantive level, and we need to accelerate that process.

We need to be more bold in our prescriptions, and then I think this war can finally be won. Christopher Rufo, you are one of the most important thought leaders in the country on this. You're relentless and persuasive, and you have earned my favorite word in the English language, the number one spot on Amazon.com for your book, America's Cultural Revolution. It's the number one book on Amazon, and let's keep it there, and send it to your family, your friends, your independent middle people, Marxists in your life. Send them America's Cultural Revolution.

Dive deep. You cannot protect or save that which you don't understand. Christopher Rufo is helping us understand our beautiful country. Christopher Rufo, thank you so much. Thank you. Please subscribe to our podcast, everybody. Thank you so much for listening.

For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com. And have my words policed by HR. Words like grandfather, peanut gallery, long time no see, no can do. When I grow up, I want to be obsessed with emotional safety and do workplace sensitivity training all day long. When I grow up, I want to climb the corporate ladder just by following the crowd. I want to be a conformist. I want to weaponize my pronouns.

What are pronouns? It's time to grow up and get back to work. Introducing the number one woke free job board in America. RedBalloon.Work