Escaping "Nice" Christianity with Aaron Ginn

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It's a conversation I have with Erin Ginn about masculinity, feminized Christianity, and more. Email us as always, freedom at charleykirk.com, and get involved with our amazing movement, Turning Point USA at tpusa.com. That is tpusa.com. Start a high school or college chapter today at tpusa.com. I think you guys should check it out, tpusa.com. Become a member today, members.charleykirk.com. You guys can become a member insider monthly. There's going to be some amazing stuff, exclusive meetups, Zoom calls, all sorts of stuff, answering exclusive questions, also exclusive interview with Dan Bongino, Tucker Carlson.

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You wouldn't get the joy out of it. You need contrast. This morning, I put a picture of my local's account of me. I know I have this speech today, and I got a dinner tonight with a local politician about some stuff. It's Sunday. I should have this day off, but I'm here with you. This morning, I said to Paula, it's 95 degrees in Florida. I said, let's go downstairs, do a full body workout.

By the way, my garage with no AC, so it's about 80 in the garage. Then I said, I'm going to jump in 190 degrees sauna afterwards for about 10 minutes before this speech. I put a picture up on locals, and I'm like, you want to see what pain looks like? I said, if you don't go through this suffering and this suck all the time, you're never going to learn to adore the moments of joy and success.

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Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com. Aaron, welcome to the program. Hey, man. Nice to see you again.

Yeah, thank you. So you have a whole program right now on masculinity. Tell us about it. Yeah, so I've been writing the series devoted to what I find like an epidemic. Of course, last time I was on the show, we talked about another epidemic, the Fauci apocalypse, right, when I came into town during the lockdowns and talked about COVID. And so I've been writing a lot about masculinity, biblical friendship, particularly around this idea of like nice guy Christians, which is sort of plaguing a lot of big Eva evangelism, which I think really came to head during the Trump era. And even today, sort of as we think about like what comes next for the party. And so nice guy Christians, or you could say nice guy in general is like, there was a seminal book written a couple decades ago by Dr. Glover, who is a psychiatrist who identified something in America, where that men were particularly behaving in ways that were quite manipulative and immoral, aka trying to be nice. And, and a part of that is basically never saying what you want, never being direct manipulating people by being nice and kind to them.

So they do something that like for you, right, so these like over contracts and things like that, driven by toxic shame. And a lot of the problems I think that America is facing from fatherlessness to like issues in politics and even stuff that you talked about, about, you know, plaguing the church in America about not understanding what Trump was or is, you know, depending if he gets reelected, or what we need to do as a country to, you know, defeat China, things like that. And I think that's around the idea of like how men view themselves. And particularly around like being nice, which is very different than being kind, is the indirectness of a lot of men. And that goes everything from like how they work and how they choose relationships and how they have friends and how they don't have friends and how they treat their children. That's a very astute point. Yeah. And, and so I think this is why maybe you and I have experienced a lot, both in our friend group and then working in politics, you know, me on the edge is more you involved about why we can talk to somebody who's like theologically and morally aligned with us. But then when it actually comes to like doing something, acting, they don't follow through. And you're like, you don't understand why.

No, and I'll give you an example. You know, we've had a pastor on once, and I won't say the name, you know, kind of a cool guy pastor who was speaking out against some of the woke stuff, really nice person. And he invited me to his church, right? So I texted him like, hey, I'm going to be in town.

And then he texted back. He's like, oh, well, actually, my board doesn't want you to want you to come. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're exactly who I thought you were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's so and I think particularly for Christians.

So I have a whole section devoted to how Jesus wasn't nice. Oh, yeah, that's the latest Medium post, right? No, oh, no, I don't write on there anymore. No, just Substack.

Substack, yeah. Oh, this is June 10th. Maybe this is all messed up. Yeah, the, the, so, so yeah, the, the, my last part of the series is devoted to Christ and what Scripture says. So what do you mean, Jesus wasn't nice? What do you mean by that?

I agree, obviously. So one is that nice is a Latin word. Yeah, tell me the etymology of it. Yeah, basically, the original meaning was ignorant. And so, but nice has also had multiple versions of, like, everything from, like, you're basically more or less a bad guy to being great, to being evil, to being manipulative, right, over the course of the word nice. Basically, it has a ton of meanings, similar to the word, like, when you mean nice. What's the root, though, in Latin?

Oh, ignorant. No, but actually, the Latin word, like, Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. Like, so, like, whenever people originally use the word nice, they meant, they meant you're ignorant. So, versus kind in Greek, which actually appears in Scripture, is generally, like, kind of four things. It's, like, generally goodness, righteousness, grace, long suffering. Yeah, so, but nice does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Bible or in any Aramaic translation or Greek translation.

The first time we have record of is, like, 14th century. And this is why I also had so many meanings, which is also typical of nice guys, right? Like, this nice pastor guy you met, like, he's here, he's like, yeah, yeah, rah, rah, rah.

Total coward, intellectually, I could say the name, but... Yeah, you don't want to be rude, right? So, Christ, as an example in Scripture, he was never nice. He was kind, right? So, being kind, as rooted in the Greek, is both oriented towards truth and goodness, right? Which nice guys don't.

They're not principal, they don't stand up for themselves, they don't stand up for other people. And so, one is that we have lots of examples of Jesus being super direct and, you could say, not being nice. Remember, he called a canine woman a dog, he called Pharisees vipers, right?

Send no more. Yeah, the woman at the well basically calls her a harlot, and none of this was an orientation, of course, of, like, demeaning or shame. There's no shame in Christ. But it was to correct the error, right? Yeah, and to see them for who they were, right? And nice guys don't do that. Nice guys, instead, they lie, they manipulate, they deceive. And because Christianity in America has told them, to be a good Christian man means to be nice.

Well, again, the word never appears. Being a good Christian man is being kind, being like Paul and being like Jesus, right? Paul was certainly not nice, like, if you read any of the letters.

No, he's pretty harsh. Yes, because the world is sinful and the world is fallen. And so I think the men in America are really suffering from this contagion, this view of themselves that they're supposed to behave in ways that are not biblical and not oriented to Christ, and that's what creates these passive men that don't lead their families, they don't stand up for themselves, they don't fight for goodness, they don't fight for character, they won't fight for our country. Instead, they placate and being like, oh, to be Christ means being a pushover.

Right. No, this is widespread in our seminaries, and so I'd say, and you kind of know it, first of all, most Christian pastors look like women, right? They're metrosexual, skinny jeans. I mean, look, I'm just looking at some of the pictures now of, you know, a pastor who didn't want to be there.

No, but very baggy clothes, right, not very masculine features, so that plays into it. But there is this belief on the men in particular, must be nice, must be nice. So for example, when I say that transgenderism comes from the pit of hell, they say, Charlie, that's not you being nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how did a secular word that's non-biblical infuse it as almost the ultimate commandment? It's not, you shall know the gods before me, shall not covet, shall not steal, honor your mother and father, remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy, but now the ultimate commandment is, thou shall be nice against evil. Yeah, I think it's a combination of post-1950s, sort of the insert of the sexual revolution, more or less Marxism, that was trying to attack the foundations of what would make America what it is, which has basically constantly been kind of rabble-rousers, frontiersmen, like push the boundaries. Awfully disagreeable. Yes, right, and I mean, you have photos of people who are behind you that are quite disagreeable people. James Madison, Winston Churchill, Clarence Thomas, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield.

By the way, if you guys ever come to the Charlie Kirk studios, it's like a museum here. Yeah, yeah, so there's this kind of spirit of America that is remarkably masculine, that does not exist in any of the other cultures, and so for, you could say for the enemy, which would be Satan, or for other enemies, which would be more secular human, like China to Marxism, to attack America to the point where it's neutered. Most countries know they can't ever really, like, kinetically defeat us. The only way they can defeat us is through culture, right? And so they had to go after the source, which is the church and men that actually make America what it is. And so I think this nice guy Christians, and the reason why I put it before a Christian is like it overtakes Christ, right?

Oh, it does. Yeah, and so the big Eva kind of invented this thing that is the culture. That's so, that's exactly right. And infiltrated it, and said, like, no, this is the highest calling.

We were like, but wait a minute, like, how can you get past that, like, Jesus literally makes bold claims to the point that it offends people so much that he goes, gets crucified. So, I mean, just the obvious, 45 seconds in this segment, but if you're not nice, that doesn't mean you have to be mean. No, no, no, no. And that's the immediate, sloppy, big Eva. Exactly. Like, whoa, you're just a mean person because you're not nice.

Yeah, yeah. That's awfully a sloppy, two-dimensional way to look at it. It's rather as being direct, right? Being kind means to be direct. And so what they're missing is that when you're being nice, you're actually lying to people. Because everybody has wants, everyone has needs, everybody has opinions, but when you're forced to be nice, you're just lying. Like, are you really telling me that, like, as an example, that, like, intimacy is, like, a huge problem for many men in marriage, and so they're nice to the point where they, like, lie to other people.

Oh, it's great, right? Or, like, oh, she's such a, like, she's such a, like, a wonderful person. In reality, it's, like, no, you're actually lying. Or, like, a job. Like, oh, you're trying to be nice to your boss. Oh, yeah, like, I don't deserve that raise. Or, like, I'm trying really, really hard, you know, and I'm just so happy to be here. Rather than saying, like, no, I deserve a raise.

Have you received any pushback to this contention? Most of the pushback would be mean, which, again, is, like, you know, you're kind of a shallow way of understanding what I've written. The second one would be, like, Dr. Glover is not a Christian. I love this, by the way. You're not commanded to be nice.

It's a made-up term. You are commanded to be kind, but truth is the ultimate gospel, okay? There is no love without truth. So is it time for us in Christianity to crusade against the word nice?

Oh, please, yes. And I think— I think you're on to something pretty deep here. Yeah, because I don't think it's to over-respond into, let's say, some of the pastors you probably have on that are, like, rude and mean, right? Who don't position themselves as speaking truth in a form towards redemption and reconciliation.

Because that's the real difference between our faith and the other faiths, is that the point of the cross is that we are in a position to help restore the world. Yeah, that's right. And you can't restore on a lie.

You can't restore on fake truth. By definition. The cross corrects errors. Sen means you're off target, literally. That's what the word means.

Exactly, like hata, right? It means you're not where you should be. Yes, but the origination of desire, and that's what, like, I think was one of the failures of many nice guys, is that a lot of the desires I feel are wrong. But that's not how ever in the Hebrew Bible or in the Greek New Testament, like, sin is ever presented. The desires that God gives you is good. Where it goes is bad.

No, that's exactly right. And the orientation of a lot of evangelical thought is this idea that, like, your heart—right, they talk about heart issues. And it's like, well, that's actually where all the sin is, right? And I think what they're doing is they're misreading a lot of the Old Testament Scripture on heart and, like, what God is going to do with the heart in terms of the New Covenant, right?

Like Jeremiah 33 and 31. And they're also misunderstanding—even if you talk to Ben, like, if you talk to Ben about sin, like, I think a lot of the— Well, they're very action-oriented in Judaism. Yeah, because to them, it's like, oh, it's like the origination's not bad, we've just got to put it in a good place, right? But a lot of, like, big Eva teaches men that, like, no, you're just bad and you're shameful. How dare you have any of these thoughts?

How dare you have any of these ideas? You've got to root that out of your heart. Rather than saying, oh, actually, no, your desire for winning, your desire for victory, your desire for, like, being proud of yourself should go somewhere. But instead, it teaches them, like, no, that's bad.

That's bad, bad, bad, right? And maybe this relates to sort of our sort of reformed—and I'm mostly reformed—like orientation about how, like, we view people, et cetera, et cetera. But a lot of, like, nice guys are living in this really deep shame, which is really sad, because you talk to them and you hear how they talk about themselves.

Yes. They would—if any friend ever talked to them that way, they wouldn't be friends with that person. But yet they live with that person in their brain, right? And then when it comes to expression of the faith to the world, like, you've talked to, like, non-believers, right? Like, I think the one reason why, like, Peterson to Rogan to Sigma males and all this stuff is happening is because men know, like, what's being presented by Big Eva American evangelicalism is not real or true or good. So they go to these other men who are like, yeah, I should want to go eat steak and shoot guns and be around my dude friends and smoke cigars or talk about whatever and not feel ashamed. Folkness, to me, is this, like, we could say, like, Christianity without Jesus that is deeply unmasculine, that is, like, constantly hunting down, pursuing people out of heart issues, sin-hunting and attacking people. And then there's not a man to be there saying, like, wait a minute, actually, you should just kind of say what you want.

Like, it doesn't mean that necessarily it's true or good, but we can debate it, right? This lack of masculine culture, nice guys, etc., I think is one reason why we have white culture and all this, like, nonsense, is because we're feeding this beast. So I think American evangelicalism has taught men to think less of themselves, orient talk to shame, have no friends, don't pursue actually who Christ is actually in the Bible, and instead has created this neuterized thing that Paul would be deeply ashamed of. It's like, you know, Rick Warren and Levi Lusko and, you know, all these people who really don't like me, and I got in a text argument with Rick Warren, who's, you know, become a hyper-feminine type figure, right?

And he got kicked out for a reason, SBC. Yeah, well, literally hyper-feminine, because he thinks women should be pastors. But also, his whole approach is very feminine, very feely, very—isn't that part of the problem, is the feminization of the American church? Yeah, it's good, because if you go to the church in Africa, a.k.a. real hardship—so, you know, I let you know that I'm in Colorado, and it's just funny when people are like, look at this nature. And you go to Africa, you're like, no, that's frickin' nature.

That nature is going to kill you, right? And you talk to a Christian there, and you present— That's exactly right. Yeah, so even—this is such a great example—so, like, I went to Tanzania during the whole Fauci apocalypse, and it was the only country open, and I asked my tour guide, who was a Christian—so Tanzania's one of the few split countries, Muslim and Christian, they're, you know, a Christian by their first name—and he asked me, yes, like, what's going on in America? And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, why are all these white people scared of this thing, right? And he was deeply, like, just concerned about, like, what do you mean? Like, I live in this country where, like, a lion can kill you, a bunch of diseases. And he's—you know what he is?

He is frickin' happy. And of course—but that's the thing. So, I mean, we're going to keep you for a couple more minutes in the break here, so guys, if we could configure it. But isn't—I mean, part of the issue, and I think you've pinpointed it, is the—wokeness capitalizes on guilt that is not dealt with. Yes, yeah. And bad theology leads to, as you say, this incredibly heavy guilt on a lot of largely white men who then become metrosexual versions of their former selves. Yeah, rather than believing that Christ is Victor, right? That, like, Christ doesn't ever say these things that big Eva, Warren, or whoever says, you know what Christ says when he sees you?

Like, and these are all present-tense Greek words. He says that you're chosen, you're elected, you're a saint, you're the Son of God, right? That you are part of the new kingdom right now. Doesn't say in the future, he says right now. Because how you exist today, as presented by Paul and Ephesians and Galatians, a bunch of other places, like, as you exist today because you are saved and you live in eternity is how you are today. Because in heaven, it's eternity, it is. There's no future, there's no past, everything is now.

I am. So we do have a question here, though, about—let me just ask this for you, Aaron, and you can help us. You say, Charlie, my pastor just gave a sermon on being nice, how do I best confront him? Meaning that we must be nice to the world or else people will not accept Christianity. One, that that's an incredible, diminutive view of the Gospel, and of sin, and of Christ's work on the cross, that somehow it's dependent on you in being nice to send the message. I mean, I think Paul really condemns that in Galatians as an example of that. But the other thing is that you should put never anything— both in the sense of theology, like as in, one area that I do condemn, let's say the more masculine side of the Church, is they put these things in front of the Gospel to prevent people from coming to faith, as in different behavioral things and stuff like that. There's nothing that prevents you from being saved. And so you should not put these requirements on people outside of accepting the fact that Jesus died for your sins and gave you the Holy Spirit and he rose again from the dead and he will return, the Nicene Creed.

Nothing else should come between that. But in terms of being nice, to me that's putting a list on it, as if you can somehow influence what God is going to do. People are elected and it's God's choice. He uses you, right, and uses your words to propel the Gospel forward and your talents and your skills. But artificially putting yourself in some sort of weird cultural mix of things, a milieu of manipulative behavior, lying, etc., all these elements of being nice, is a gross, grotesque belief that you can somehow do something in terms of the Gospel message. So the way I would approach him is literally go read the first part of Galatians, which most people don't know, Paul's being sarcastic. So when he's calling the super apostles, all these things, he's mocking this Church. And probably that pastor may have a diminutive view of Paul, which is very common among these feminized pastors. But it's very hard to argue, if the person accepts Paul, that he was not nice. And the other one would be, you can go to Christ and you can see how he talked to Samaritans, see how he talked to Pharisees.

He did not hide what he thought. Because if your goal is redemption, which is the goal of every person sharing the Gospel, you cannot reconcile on a lie. You have to reconcile on the reality of who Christ is, what he said, what he's going to do.

Have we seen the American Church ever be so captured by a secular idea as we have now? I mean, yeah. I mean, it's really hard. I mean, I don't want to be—technically, I'm a post-millennial.

So that's a difficult position. So you're post-Trib? Yeah, as in, like, oh, it's going to get better and better, right? Although I do submit that Revelation reads like a pre-millennial orientation.

We're going to get a lot of emails. We have a lot of Calvary folks that watch that disagree. Pre-Trib, pre-millennial. Yeah, exactly.

So I would say that it is pretty depressing. And I'm a student of church history. Outside of very grotesque things that the church accepted for a while, like I would say indigent servitude, slavery, et cetera, which was prevalent in a lot of parts of the church for hundreds of years, it's hard to see something as terrible as what the church is suffering from right now. And that is an extension, really, of an—that's what Americans don't understand. So much of what we're dealing with with the American Church is, like, in America. If you go to another country—and, like, one of my most memorable moments is going with some of our friends to Palestine. And I talked to my tour guide there in Bethlehem. Palestine doesn't exist. It's West Bank. So that is true.

It's technically true. It's a Roman word, right? It's not a region. Philistine.

Yeah. So my tour guide there in Bethlehem was a Christian. That's an Arab city now. It's 90 percent Arab. And he mentioned that.

He goes, whenever he was born, it was like 30 or 40 percent. And now it's, like, it's incredibly small. And he joked that, like, the things you thought would separate churches in America, you realize how dumb it is once you're down to a couple churches, right? And I asked him who Jesus was. He repeated the beautiful Nicene Creed to me. And I've never met this before, right? And he used to speak English, but he grew up there. And we were standing next to the wall, obviously, that surrounds Bethlehem.

The house of bread. And he said, he goes, this wall's not for me, but I totally get why Israel did this, right? Like, I don't go and do these things to Israelis, right?

It's not me, right? But, you know, I don't like this wall, but I totally get it. That orientation towards truth and reconciliation, right? But, you know, you talk about some of the things that we suffer from here, unlike nice guyism and woke stuff within the church. That doesn't exist in other countries, right?

Because they actually have real problems. Like, wokeness and masculinity problems are like this, we're so bored that we need to invent some crisis. No, that's right.

Bored in plus affluence equals wokeism. Yes. So, all right, I'm just curious on your own personal—you say you were a reformer, a four or five-point Calvinist. Yeah. What do you believe? So, I would say I'm mostly three and a half to four, never go before three.

Three and a half. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, then you kind of draw the line. No, no.

Or you pick and choose. Yeah, yeah. So, I would say that the—I believe in perseverance, I believe—my one I kind of go back and forth on is irresistible grace. So, just remind our audience what these mean again. Yeah, yeah. So, total depravity is that, like, you know, that you can't earn your way to God, more or less. I can buy into that.

Yeah. Unconditional election, that, you know, there's no condition for you to be chosen. Limited atonement is the idea that Jesus died only for the people that are saved. Irresistible grace, you can't resist God. Perseverance of the saints, you can't lose your salvation. So, I basically go back, and my pastors are gonna—my pastors are reformed, so they're— So, they're all five. Yeah, yeah, essentially.

So, but I love them to death, and they love me. So, and that's Jesus right there. So, I would go back and forth on irresistible grace, because you see examples of it, and you don't see examples of it. He's kind of both and.

So, what do you mean? Like, give me a biblical example. Like, for example, Paul, right? So, Paul, on the road, gets literally blinded by Jesus, and he can't resist. But then you have examples in Exodus, obviously, the greatest example, where, like, he hardened his heart towards the Lord, right?

And so, Calvinists, full Calvinists, would kind of make up these, like, these theology things to try to explain that, like, corresponding— Well, you could also read—you could say that God hardened his heart, though. Yeah, so— In the story, it's not that he had his heart hardened, God hardened his heart. But it appears both ways. So, in the Exodus story, it appears both ways. No, that's correct.

Yeah. So, where it says, God did, he did, God did, he did, right? And so, what I tried to do with theology, like, theological frameworks—because, like, Tulip is a— I believe it was written by an Arminian, so it actually wasn't written by Calvin. And again, I would choose to go to a Reformed church over an Arminian church, like, 100 percent.

But the irresistible side is that, like, I try to submit the Bible to theological frameworks, not fit theological frameworks into the Bible. Right. So, do you believe that we have some agency or will? Not when it comes to election.

I don't. I believe that election is purely unconditional. So, God's already chosen who he wants in heaven. Yes, because to live in eternity means that there is no past, present, or future.

It is. So, everyone that is in heaven is there. So, we don't have a choice to accept Jesus.

I do not believe that, yes. I believe that God chooses people. Then why did he send Jesus? Well, that was his choice, yeah.

Just because, just for fun? No, I mean— Because it's not redemption, then it's selection. Well, no, he sent Jesus because someone needed to pay for the sins of— Well, then it's just metaphorical, then, right?

No, there still is a justice element of Christ and God that has to be paid for. Metaphorically. These are all symbols at some point, right? No, no, that's not metaphorical. If you're not actually accepting Jesus, you're just kind of just—you're just a robot, right?

No, no, no, no, no. So, there's conflation there between, like, do you have a choice, for example, to—I'll use this as a framework—to speed or not, right? Like, you have a choice there, right?

But there still is, like, a consequence whether or not you speed or not, right? And so, sin operates that same way, and I think choice operates the same way. It's like, God is a person. Like, you have a choice to do something, he has a choice to do something. Like, just because he— You said we don't have a choice.

No, no, no, no. In terms of one category. But there's multiple categories. So, but how is it love if everyone's already been selected? How is it love— How is it loving if there's no voluntary agency to get closer to God? Well, but again, there's a difference between how you live out your faith and the moment of being elected.

Those are, like, not the same categories. There's different categories of operation for God. But if God has a list of who he says is in heaven already, absent our own will, then there's not loving, then. No, it is loving, because if you believe in the first orientation to a total depravity that you can't ever get to him anyways, then it is loving, right? Well, I think we're totally depraved, and only Christ can bring us out of it.

Because we do have agency, obviously. Yes, and that's where the irresistible grace comes into play. I think that you still have a choice in how you respond to God, but not when it comes to love. Not when it comes to love and not being saved. Therefore, if what you're saying is true, he's predestined people for hell. Yes. That's not a loving God.

It's a just God, because God is both, those things, right? Interesting. Okay, Aaron Jin, thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening, everybody. Email us your thoughts, as always, freedom at charliekirk.com. Thanks so much for listening, and God bless. This is your moment to get in the fight.

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