The Legend of James Lindsay: A Conversation at the Chapter Leadership Summit

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That's noblegoldinvestments.com, the only gold company I trust. Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show, my exclusive conversation with James Lindsay from the Chapter Leadership Summit. James and I riff about the Maoist Cultural Revolution.

You are living through an act of measure and how to fight back. One of my favorite guests and favorite people, James Lindsay, who is a good man, very smart, understands Maoism, and will make you laugh. It's a great conversation. Text this to your friends and become a member today at members.charliekirk.com. That is members.charliekirk.com. That is members.charliekirk.com. As always, you can email us, freedom-at-charliekirk.com, and subscribe to our podcast.

Open up your podcast application and type in Charlie Kirk Show. Get involved with Turning Point USA Today at tpusa.com. Again, when you become a member, you get exclusive content, and for people that become an annual member, you can get a Never Surrender shirt. So check it out. As always, you can email us, freedom-at-charliekirk.com. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go.

He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Brought to you by the loan experts I trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandtodd.com.

So we're going to dive right into it. This is a really important dialogue we're about to have. Dr. James Lindsay, I consider him a great friend. I don't have many friends, but James Lindsay is one of them. And James Lindsay has a PhD in mathematics.

That is really, really hard to do. Like, if it was PhD in queer studies, like, whatever. He has an IQ that is beyond comprehension. James Lindsay, though, being in math, being in that space, gravitated all of a sudden realizing this woke mind virus was taking down the entire civilization.

Communism. He reads, like I've never seen anybody read before, and he said, okay, I want to understand what this is. He did multiple years of research and still does, of where does this come from, how do we fight it, queer theory, wokeism, critical race theory, widely published. He has some hilarious stories he's going to share of where he wrote some fake academic journals that got accepted pretending to be woke. But Dr. James Lindsay is, in my opinion, the clearest, most courageous, and also fun academic that is going to help you have the intellectual ammunition to be able to push back against your professors and your snobbish classmates.

That's why he's here. We're going to talk about all the issues. Pride month, drag, woke, what even is woke, and hopefully, we're not going to be able to cover it all, hopefully it will get you interested enough for you to follow his podcast, read his books. So Dr. James Lindsay, welcome to the Turning Point USA Chapter Leadership Summit.

Thanks, Charlie. I always wanted to be introduced as fun. Well, so James, why don't you talk a little bit about the fake academic journals. I think that will give people a picture into your brilliance and also trolling the bad guys to show their idiocy. Yeah, so this is actually going to be kind of useful for you all on campus if you end up having to go toe to toe with one of your professors or whatever. So way back in the day in 2017, a couple of friends of mine and I, Peter Boghosian, Helen Pluckrose are their names, decided that it would be useful to write a bunch of fake academic articles in gender studies, queer theory, critical race education, and the whole gamut feminist theory. And so what we did was we sat down, we thought, let me tell you why on earth would you do this, first of all. We thought, you know, we were trying to criticize it like you guys have probably tried to stand up to it, tried to say this is wrong, this is a mistake, here's the fallacies are, here's where the errors in logic are.

And they didn't care, and they said, you don't have a PhD in it, so you can't say anything. So we thought, well, if we get a bunch of papers published, that's like better than a PhD, like three papers is equal to a doctorate in most fields, let's just do a bunch of papers. Plus, we read this paper, a real paper about feminist study of glaciers, and it pissed us off.

There's no other way to put it. This is in a huge journal, and it's like this paper, it's like, listen, the study of glaciers has always been plagued by masculine bias. It was manly men going to the Arctic and climbing mountains, studying glaciers, and that excluded women, and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, because you'd die, but you read through this, and it's like, well, we study glaciers using satellites, and that's pornographic, that's the God's eye view from nowhere, we're taking pornographic images. And it really says that, and we're like, what the hell is this? And so then I get further down, and it's like, well, you know those satellite images, what they really should work in, there's this feminist, and she's a painter, they should include her paintings alongside their satellite images to study glaciers, and it's like, you've got to be kidding. Then there's like, you've got to call the glacier on the phone and listen to its sounds, and there's a phone number in the paper, and I thought, this is insane. Then it's talking about like glaciers having sex and indigenous myths, and we're like, this can't be real.

And I got so depressed, I decided we had to get some revenge on these people. And so we wrote 20 academic articles, 21 really, there was a trial balloon, unlike the one that China flew over ours. We flew a trial balloon called The Conceptual Penis as a Social Construct, in which we argued that penises don't really exist, they're socially constructed objects that cause all the problems in the world, especially climate change. And that was a controversial object to throw into the literature. So this blossomed into 20 more papers, some of them were literally about assessing rape culture by watching dogs humping each other at dog parks. We wrote a chapter of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, his intersectional feminism, it got picked up by a social work journal, so there's that field. We wrote a paper about the sport of bodybuilding being unfairly exclusive of fat people, so it's called Fat Bodybuilding.

The title was Who Are They To Judge? That got accepted by the leading journal. So we did this, and academia looked at us and pretended it didn't happen. We got seven of those papers, remember three is a PhD, seven of those papers got accepted, and academia just put its head in the sand and pretended it didn't happen, so when you guys get up against some of your professors and they say all this crazy stuff about queer theory this or whatever that, and you say well how do you know that, how do you know that's true, they say well there's studies, ask them about this, ask them about the grievance studies affair, what about those academics that wrote those fake papers, how'd they get those published, see what they say about that. These were accepted as actual academic research, and James is so smart, you wrote it in a way of their lingo, where they were applauding you and they thought it was really smart and really interesting of the stuff that you were publishing. And you used fake names too.

Well some fake names, we actually had a guy that my friend Peter is friends with, so a friend of my friend, he's an actual pro bodybuilder, that's where we came up with the idea for Fat Bodybuilding, he's a real professor in Florida that was like I hate these guys, you can use my name. And so we had one real name and we made up names, but the reason we got found out, they really didn't get published, the dog humping paper is a little ridiculous, I can't actually express to you in PG terms how ridiculous it is, but they loved this paper and it got published and journalists started to look at this paper like there is no way this is real. And some journalists just dug on it and dug on it and dug on it, so you guys, the one who dug was a college student who wouldn't let it go. It was a college student and she couldn't get people to pay attention to her articles and like campus reform or whatever it was she was writing for, so she sent an email to a friend she made at a conference like this that she made at the Wall Street Journal and the Wall Street Journal got a hold of us and we had to come clean, and so don't ever think for a second that you're too young to make a difference. But Charlie, one of these papers, talking about their lingo and fooling them, one of these papers was about Hooters, the restaurant, and I wrote some really absurd and lewd things about Hooters, and the editor of the journal wrote a personal note on the document when she sent it back and said, oh my God, I've never been to one of these places and I always knew they were bad, but it's so much worse than I thought. And James, these are academics that are in charge of teaching this entire room. Yeah, that's the research these academics that are teaching are doing.

I've never been to one of these places, but I thought it was bad. And then somebody makes up, literally makes up a bunch of crap, and they're like, that's how it is. That's what they're teaching you.

So then James, you did the academic story, but then you came out with the book, Cynical Theories, Race Marxism, Marxification of Education, and you have now been a relentless and effective critic of CRT, and now something I'm going to ask you. James, what is WOKE? WOKE is denouncing everything you want to control until you control it. That's all it is. That's not a complicated definition.

I can go as academic as you want. It's critical consciousness. It's believing that the world is arranged in systems of power and domination and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's called critical consciousness formally.

That's academic. The reality is it is denouncing everything you want to control as being a system of power until you control it. So what's critical race theory?

You like this one. It's the first thing in Race Marxism, my book about critical race theory, the first sentence. Critical race theory, noun, calling everything you want to control racist until you control it. Queer theory, we could do the same thing. Noun, calling everything you want to control homophobic and transphobic until you control it. That's what WOKE is. WOKE is an excuse to use ideas like bigotry to take control of people and institutions. And so, James, let's talk about a couple elements of this.

Every single one of these kids, unless they go to Hillsdale or Liberty, are going to be hearing kind of like this relentless campaign from professors and teachers. You're white. You're not allowed to comment on this or you don't understand that we are systemically racist.

Where do these terms come from and how should let's just say there's a white student in the audience here and a professor says you're white. You're not allowed to comment on this. How should they respond to that? Well, I mean, in the moment, this is always going to be a tricky thing. But you've got to say, yes, I can.

Just yes, I can. My comment counts. This is actually, by the way, how I got started in all this way back in like 2013. I was at a table, mixed group. There were some blue collar friends of mine. There were some white collar, actually academic friends of mine.

We were at the same party. We're sitting there talking and this guy's talking about affirmative action and how it's led to some issues at his factory, the blue collar guy. And the academic white woman says, that sounds a little bit racist. And he's like, blah, blah, blah.

I try to intervene and it's like all falling apart. And he's like telling his story. And I said, listen, you all the time talk about how we have to hear people's stories. This is a story and you don't want to hear it.

And she said, well, he's a white man. His story's already been told. This is a story. You're all about hearing people's stories. Why can't we hear these other stories is actually an answer you can give. I'm not going to say it's going to get you anywhere. But what you have to learn is that they're not interested in the truth. So what you have to do is say these things, let them say the horrible thing back to you and then make that go viral. You have to make attention come to that. One of the papers that we wrote, one of the fake papers was about education.

We called it the progressive stack. We said that the teachers should not allow white male students to talk in class. They should listen and learn in silence. Can't ask questions. Can't raise their hand. Don't get their e-mails answered. Get spoken over. Should have to sit on the floor. They can wear chains to experience reparations in class.

Be humiliated and embarrassed. But we should do it compassionately. Because we're writing funny papers, right? And so we have to do it with compassion. And the peer reviewers, this, Charlie, is the turning point, by the way. The peer reviewers wrote back and said we love this idea but you can't use compassion.

Because that might recenter the needs of the privileged students over the oppressed students. And I said, oh my God, there's a genocide at the end of this. That's where I went. A couple weeks later, you're married, you'll understand how this works. I went a couple weeks later and said to my wife, can I quit my job and dedicate it to studying this and exposing it?

Because this ends at the end of civilization is where this goes. And you have to be able to stand and say, listen, my opinion counts too. And if you don't want to count it, let's hear you just own that. Make them own the things that they actually believe that are horrible, that are un-American, that are immoral, that are sometimes absolutely perverse. Make them own them.

That's what we've been doing for a couple years now and it's the most effective tool. You're not going to win in the moment with somebody who has tons of power over you. But you can set them up to be humiliated and embarrassed or maybe even at the end of a lawsuit. How do you respond, James, when you hear from an activist, a classmate, a professor, administrator, that I have my own truth and you have your own truth? You just ask them, I guess, is that true?

Is that universally true for like everybody? Like that there are truths for some people and not truths for other people? Because what they're doing is they're saying, I have special knowledge nobody else is allowed to have. And you have to ask them if something like that is universally applicable, what on earth gives them the right, the authority? Why do you believe you have the authority to know things nobody else can know? Where did you get that?

Did you just kind of wake up with it in the morning? What's the deal? You've got to ask them, where do you think you get the authority to talk like that? Of course, you don't have your truth and I don't have my truth. There is the truth and the truth, if you want to get technical about it, is that which any independent observer can go verify for themselves. And I believe the truth will set you free firmly and completely.

And so, but James, even the term truth is a is a threatening academic concept, is it not? Yeah, because they have woven together the idea of truth and power, which makes sense because there is an immense amount of power, as in the exact kind of power that will take them out of the game in the truth. The truth will actually knock them off their pedestal, it will depose them, so they have to suppress the truth.

They have to hide the truth, which means, by the way, that they are not just dumb or ignorant or crazy. They are in fact, and I want to use this, I want to train you guys to start using this word, they are wicked. Which means they are doing evil and they know they're doing evil.

They are wicked. They are suppressing the truth because that's the only way their lies can go forward. So what they've done is they've wrapped truth and power together as one concept. This is what postmodernism kind of boils down to. Oh, the truth is whatever, whoever has power gets to say is true and everything else is false.

And like I just said, there's a way to cut right across that. No, the truth is that which any independent observer can see. The truth is what hits you in the face when your beliefs are wrong. So why is woke and truth incompatible? What is it about the woke that is threatened by the truth and how the truth overcomes the woke? Well, they're incompatible because the truth will question things that woke people are saying, like for example that we can't tell what men and women are.

And I think any of us can tell what men, I don't even, I think even they know anybody can tell what men and women are, except for maybe a very small percentage of them. And what that will do is it will remove their justification to power. The fact of the matter is the reason that truth is dangerous is because truth is accessible to anybody, therefore it's not only accessible to tyrants.

I need to interrupt you, James. I hope you guys understand this. How many times have you heard, you're not studying it, you don't have a PhD, you're not allowed to comment on this. What they're doing is they're saying you're not in the secret society to be able to open your mouth. So what we believe in is that every human being has access to the truth regardless if you have a PhD or not. You don't have to be in the secret society to be able to say that men can't give birth. You do not have to be in the secret society.

Right, James? They're trying to create this secret cabal almost. That's exactly what it is. It's a club, you've got to get the credentials. That's what they told me, that's why I wrote the fake papers. Oh, you can't criticize this. At first it was, well, you're a white man, of course you don't understand. But then my criticisms mostly got too close because I just kept hammering at them and they're like, well, you don't have a PhD, you're not an expert, you aren't credentialed, you're not in the club. He does have a PhD. I do have a PhD but he's in the wrong field. But then you could have somebody who has a PhD in the right field but if they say the wrong thing, there's actually a guy, I think his name is Eric Anderson or something like this, he developed this whole concept of what he called inclusive masculinity and he was all the vogue for a number of years. And then all of a sudden he said something because he actually believes in observable objective reality and he believes in empirical science even though he's kind of in this sort of direction. And all of a sudden they came for him, they canceled him, his theory is all wrong, it just turned around on him like overnight.

He had a PhD in the right stuff, he was doing the right things. But he said, I actually care about observable truth, I care about who can do the experiment. And that's the thing, they are erecting a false reality, the truth will knock them off of it and anybody can access the truth, which means they can take them out. But it requires truth tellers. The truth in existence will always be there. But it requires you to have the courage to speak that truth.

It requires more than that and I'm going to get a little biblical on you if you don't mind. It doesn't just require truth tellers. It is hard to tell the truth, especially now, especially if you're in the disenfranchised or marginalized position that you are and don't dip into that victimization. They are marginalizing you, that's why they use that word all the time, they marginalize their opponents. Mao Zedong said, to not have correct political opinions is like not having a soul.

In other words, not being a person, which justifies them doing whatever they want to do to you. But the fact is, it's not enough to say the truth. You have to love the truth. You have to love the truth to get biblical with you with all of your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind and all of your strength. And you must pursue the truth, you must pursue the truth again when they lie to you and then you must speak it at every turn to the best of your ability. Every single time you get the chance. You have to love the truth the way that the religious people love God.

You can't, it's the same thing, you can't step away from that. You have to love it. You have to cherish the truth. You have to act like the truth is something that you actually have to advocate for, that you love, that you support in all ways and all corners. And that's the way that truth drives out lies, truth drives out darkness, truth drives out evil. It's absolutely necessary not just that you speak the truth but that you love the truth.

And it's hard because it will knock you off your pedestal too. Now, James, let's get to something that every single person here will encounter. The queer theory, the LGBTQ mafia, the rainbow jihadis, you know, this like this tyrannical thing that we just lived through in the month of June. What are we living through? I've made the comparison that this is like conquered land and conquered territory with now we have competing flags. In fact, more pride flags than American flags.

What's going on? Well, I mean, that's what colonization is. Don't you know how they obsess about colonization?

Well, guess what? They've been studying it since the 50s. Of course, they're going to colonize. So when you see at the White House that they put the pride flag in between two American flags, there's two pride flags. When you see that, they're telling you we've colonized your country from within. So that's a good way to look at it. But you said rainbow jihadis.

I actually want to switch that for you. I'm talking about the Rainbow Guard, which has a historical precedent to the Red Guard in communist China. What we are living through, what you are experiencing day to day and what you have been experiencing at least since 2015, although you may not have noticed it until 2020, is a cultural revolution, just like happened in China in 1966 through 76.

You are living through a cultural revolution. Now, I have some bad news for the woke, for the mafia or the jihadis or whatever, the Rainbow Guard, because Mao let loose in 1966 the Red Guard, which were his communist youth. He let loose to smash the four olds, to destroy the old culture, to destroy the old society, tear down statues, rename streets, cut off their old family names and adopt new names. You know, they had dead names back then, too, that you couldn't say anymore. They had the revolutionary names. He unleashed them to hound and struggle. That's the word, struggle.

Do struggle sessions, doujang in Chinese, struggle. People who had wrong political opinions, which often included humiliating them, putting them up for public spectacle, beating them sometimes to death in the streets, robbing them of all their possessions, embarrassing them, making them confess that they weren't good communists up to the standard. And, you know, that started in 1966, Charlie. In 1967, to give you an idea of how powerful the Rainbow Guard could become, in 1967, one and a half years later, they went and they grabbed the chairman of the CCP, Liu Xiaochi, who had become Mao's chief political rival, did it to him, dragged him, the dictator of China, out of his place of power, humiliated him in the streets, sent him off to die in misery in the countryside. And you know what Mao did after he got his seat back because they deposed his political rival? A month later, at the end of 1967, he declared, oh, the Red Guard is too left. It's too radical. It's not necessary for this stage of the revolution.

And he unleashed the People's Liberation Army on them and they went away by 1968. There was no more Red Guard. That's the future of the Rainbow Guard that's colonizing our country, unfortunately, for them.

So, if you're worried about it, the Pride Month thing has a time limit. It's not going to persist. It's not useful after this stage of the revolution. But what we're living through is a cultural revolution. What we are living through is what happened in Mao's China in 1966. And now, this is what you and I have been talking about for a month or two, Charlie. The question before every one of you is can a cultural revolution be stopped?

And if so, how? Let me give you some discouragement followed by some encouragement. Discouragement. There's only been one cultural revolution so far. It happened in China and it didn't go that well. The CCP is now in its 74th year of power. Let me give you some encouragement. The United States of America is not China. The situation you find yourself in is also not the situation. I'll give you a little history.

I know we're trying to not be too dorky. But a little history lesson. The CCP actually took over China in 1949. If you did the math from 74 years, you figured that out already.

Okay? 1949. But I told you the cultural revolution started in 1966. What does that mean? That means that there were 16 and a half years during which the communists already had been breaking Chinese society.

In 1958 and 9, Mao Zedong launched a program that was supposed to bring China to the top of industrial standards of the world called the Great Reset. Wait. No. Great Leap Forward. It was a Great Leap Forward. Sorry.

I mixed those up. But I did that on purpose as a joke because the fact of the matter is the Great Reset is meant to break the U.S., break the West, break Europe, break Australia, New Zealand, Canada exactly in the same way because the reason the cultural revolution worked is by 1962, we cannot comprehend unless you lived there or you have parents or grandparents who lived there the devastation that this caused. The reason Mao had a political rival in Lu Xiaochi was they made him leave office.

They kicked him out as dictator because he killed 55 million people and ruined the Chinese economy in three years with the Great Leap Forward. I did the math on this the other day, Charlie. You guys have ever seen the great pyramids at Giza in Egypt? So you know there's the two big ones and then there's the smaller one, then there's those three little ones.

Well, that smaller one, the medium-sized one, if you took the skulls of the people who were murdered in the Great Leap Forward only and stacked them up in a square pyramid, that's how big it is. That's what Mao did. That's what the Great Leap Forward did.

So you have four years out that ended in 1962, 1966 he launches a cultural revolution. So that didn't sound very encouraging. We don't have that. They did not do that to us.

So we're in a different circumstance to answer this historical question differently. Can a cultural revolution be stopped? Yes. How? Americans. That's how. And this is why what you're doing is so important.

This is why President Trump, Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Dan Bongino, they want to spend time with you because they have to go through the youth, right, James? Is that they go through Mao's Red Guard was primarily young college kids. It was introduced through the CCP's university system.

Yeah, that's right. So in 1949, Mao takes over. A little more history. Take notes. There was a quiz.

He takes over. In 1950, do you know what Mao did? He fired every teacher in China.

Every single teacher. He took every textbook in China and got rid of every single one. And for the next two years, between 50 and 52, they brainwashed the teachers and you were not allowed back in the classroom until you passed your socialist proof exam and they rewrote the textbooks so that people didn't even have textbooks. They didn't even have textbooks to learn. So for 1952 or so until 1966, they had 14 relentless years of communist education only from communist teachers who were toeing the party line, who were completely indoctrinated and brainwashed. So the entire generation of young people who are entering what Mao called his revolutionary high schools and revolutionary colleges and universities were brainwashed on his own. They were brainwashed on his program and that is who he activated into the red guard to go take over. Why do you think that they're pushing queer theory in the schools?

So why? Why are they doing that? So that they can brainwash and break a generation of people your age and younger so that when George Floyd dies, for example, they'll go out in the street and tear down statues and break windows and burn down buildings and kill people and yell at people and everything else. So that they will throw a gigantic fit when their life isn't going the way that it is and hope and change at every turn. So they will go and tell you that you are wrong and you need to be bullied and struggled into having the right beliefs against racism and transphobia. They are activating an entire generation of David Hoggs and the youth to go out and mess up our society because they know it's possible. They know it works because it's been done before. And the threat to them is you, is Turning Point USA chapter leaders scattering across the country after this, going to high school and college campuses.

And you might say, well, Charlie, my chapter has five people like yesterday. That's a big threat to them. Relentless rebels launching a sabotage campaign against their plan throws sands in the gears.

It is this remnant of rebellion that makes their revolution hard, that makes fun of them, that mocks their ideas, that is relentless against their pressure campaign. Like, no, I'm actually not doing that. I'm not doing the pronouns. I'm going to sue you. I'm going to hold you to the book of your own rules. I'm going to multiply your impact. I'm going to have Candace Owens come and speak. I'm going to have Charlie Kirk come and speak.

I'm going to come bring a guest speaker. This all makes a difference against their forced conformity, everybody. It does. And we know that because the media considers what Turning Point is doing. They have to smear and slander us like, oh, it's a big threat. Yes, it is a threat.

The media is finally telling the truth. Turning Point USA is a threat to these Maoists that are taking over America, because you tell the truth and you do it in a way that is appealing. That's 100 percent true.

I'm going to tell you guys, a friend of mine named Brett Weinstein you may have heard of, he went through a struggle session himself at Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington a number of years ago, around when we were writing those fake academic papers. And he has a saying that he says that I want you guys to think about a lot, even if you have a chapter with five members or 30, whatever. Or I went to Northwestern, I spoke at Northwestern, they told me there are 8,600 students on campus and 100 are conservative. They're outnumbered 85 to one. That's a lot.

And that's discouraging. But what Brett says is that one is a special number. Zero and one are the two most important numbers here.

They want zero resistance. Zero. They don't have the ability in our free country at this point to make the number zero unless you quit. If you don't quit, and there's five of you, five is not zero. Five is one times five. It is more than zero.

Even one. We have one major social media platform where there's legitimate ability to speak our minds and they are losing their ever-loving minds about it. They are flipping out. Elon Musk bought Twitter and people can say things on Twitter that aren't supposed to be said.

Speaking as somebody who got kicked off that platform for five months, yeah, Charlie got kicked off. Yeah, they cannot abide a single truth teller. And if you guys, again, you want to get biblical, look back in the Bible. How many times is it everybody's going all wrong? What happens? One prophet stands up and is like, y'all are screwing up and all of a sudden there's redemption. And they screw up again. Well, of course, because humans are humans.

That never changes, which they actually believe the other way around. If I can interrupt, I really believe you guys are going to be the Joshua generation. And look, how many of you have parents, raise your hands, that don't take this as seriously as you do? Raise your hands. Okay, about half the room. That's interesting, isn't it, James?

Yeah. So what do you make of that? 16, 17, and 18-year-olds, about half the room raised their hands that say that their parents don't take their involvement as serious. Not that they don't care, but it's not as much as them.

What's going on? It should be the other way around, shouldn't it? It really should. I mean, there are groups where I think it might go the other direction, but at half there should be no hands that go up. Yeah, right. Exactly.

So what drives that? Well, unfortunately, people my age, we were in a very propagandized. I know you guys are in the most propagandized generation of all time. We were in a very propagandized generation and we went to sleep. And that's why you are in this unfortunate position. So what I see, though, is when half these hands go up, I see a lot of people who have become more switched on than we were, which is why we got in this mess. For 50 years, conservatives basically went to sleep, except for the ones that were trying to sell our country. And that's unfortunate.

They weren't working really hard. Now we have a new generation. You're talking about this Josh? We have this new generation ready to start stepping up, ready to start being truth lovers and truth tellers that are going to be the major problem for this organization or this agenda being pressed down on us. And what do I mean by the Joshua generation, right? So God delivers his chosen people out of Egypt.

They're in the wilderness. But there is this generation that constantly complains that they have no understanding of freedom. All they remember is slavery.

And there's this tension. And God does not deliver them to the promised land. In fact, he has to wait for that generation to kind of go away is a nice way to put it, right? Moses and Aaron, they don't get to go into the promised land, right? And it's not until Joshua are you able to actually deliver that promise.

Now, you could take that wherever you want. But what I think in the end of Deuteronomy, you see that kind of fulfillment where it's right before kind of the first book of Joshua, it says it so clearly, where you guys are going to be a generation that I think are finally equipped to revitalize and restore self-government in this country. I truly believe it. I think that and you have to embody it. And this is not a negative towards your parents.

But I get frustrated because you are more based than 90 percent of the boomers I talk to. Do you guys know seriously? Yeah, I was about to ask, do you guys trust the CDC?

Say it louder. Yeah, that's what I thought. But 90 percent of even some of our donors think that it's wrong to question the CDC or it's wrong to say the FBI should be broken up.

A lot of our donors are great. I'm talking just like more macro, right, James? Yeah, people like my agent up, we're all like, well, yeah, the CDC says it.

Okay. But now y'all are like the CDC says it, do the opposite and we'll be healthy. Yeah, they're yelling for Fauci to go to Gitmo. I mean, but this is promising to me because the kids are based. Kids are based.

I mean, abolish the FBI. And this gives me hope in a sense because you know why you guys have these beliefs and this is why I'm as radical as I am on this stuff is because you have to live around it all the time on high school and college campuses. You are seeing the cultural revolution every day.

And then you kind of go to maybe your parents or your uncle or aunt. You're like, you don't understand. And they're like, oh, it's just a flag. It's just pronouns. Who cares if they just want to wear a dress? They're like, you don't get it.

It's an all consuming. You must bend every knee shall bow to the trans golden calf. You don't get it. They're like, okay. Okay, little Johnny, like whatever.

How many how many of you like understand what I'm saying right now? Like every hand goes up. Right. And some adults will get it. But it's like you have to look up and be like, can you please stop these maniacs from coming after me? And they're like, but will I still like have a good stock portfolio or like, you know, a country club membership?

You're like, they're literally making me do things that are totalitarian. James, help me build this out. There's something here. Let me give you a story. This is a true story.

It was about a month ago. I was talking with a very based mom and she's telling me this story about, she's taking her kid. There's no like euphemism. Somebody, I told this story yesterday and somebody's like, is that a euphemism?

There's no euphemisms. They're taking her son to go get chicken tenders at the fast food place or whatever. And you know, some of y'all would have been 14 not that long ago. He's 14.

He belts out an awkward question as 14 year olds sometimes due to their parents and he says, mom, this is how bad it is. Charlie, you're going to watch Charlie's face because he hasn't heard this story yet. Mom, would you still love me if I told you that I'm not gay?

Told you. Would you still love me if I told you that I'm not gay? And she's of course flabbergasted. She's like, buddy, I thought we were getting chicken tenders.

What's up? And he's like, I'm just asking. And she says, well, you know, do you, do you get a lot of pressure to, I mean, I'm going to love you like no matter.

And she's all awkward. And he's like, well, you see, this is the thing is they told us that if you're, you're a real cool mom, you're accepting. And if you're an accepting mom or accepting parents, then probably you expect us to be gay and there's a ton of pressure on us to be gay. And so I didn't want to disappoint you because I'm not gay, but I didn't know if that was going to be an issue. That's a 14 year old in, it turns out a very blue state. That is what they are doing to you.

So you fully understand. And she is of course very based and immediately, you know, latched in and started doing things, but most parents are not as dialed in as these based moms. How many of you feel as if that it's fashionable, cool, or the easy thing to be gay, bisexual, trans, lesbian, gay? Yeah, almost every single hand goes up. And yeah, I mean, so like about how many of you would say that more than 20 to 30% of your school is lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans? Yeah. James, what, what's behind this 40%? You go to Brown?

No, I'm kidding. Brown University, 40% of the kids are gay. Would you say 40% of your school is gay? Where do you go to school?

At high school? Where, what state? In Arizona. So what, what, what part of Arizona?

In Mesa, the East Valley, LDS Mormon world, 40% of his high school is gay. I don't believe it, but I believe it. But is this forced behavior? Okay. So you guys have probably heard this thing called social contagion. I'm not talking about that. I, there is a social contagion, which is not quite correct.

There's a strong incentive structure. You guys all raised your hand. Is it cool to be gay? Yup.

All the hands. Who thinks it's like treated as cool to be straight? Nobody's celebrating you. You're not special. You're not, whatever. They've created an inverted incentive structure.

Homeschooler hand goes up. Yeah, right. No. They're, they're, they've inverted an incentive structure. This is way beyond social contagion. There's an incentive structure. There's an incentive structure. People follow incentives. They've incentivized being in broadly and academically, technically the term queer, which is to be in a political position of resisting all of these, the, the norms of society to resist normativity. So they've created incentive, but it's even worse than that, Charlie.

What is causing this? Social contagion alone cannot explain this. The incentive structure alone cannot explain these numbers. Maoism can explain these numbers. Again, another history lesson. Unfortunately, Mao, believe it or not, you know what he used?

They didn't call it this in China, in China, but you know what he used to make the Red Guard? Intersectionality. Intersectionality is what he used.

He created 10 different identity categories and he classified you in those identity categories if you were younger, primarily based on what your parents were. Were you a rich farmer? Are you a landlord? Oh, that's bad. Are you a counter revolutionary? Are you a bad influence? That's bad. Are you a right winger? That was one of the categories.

That's bad. And if your parents were, you were, and if you had any of these attitudes and they bullied you and struggled you. Or on the other hand, were you a peasant? Peasants use sickles, by the way. Were you a laborer? They use hammers. Hammer and sickle. There you go. Or are you one of the many revolutionary groups, revolutionary volunteers, cadres or martyrs or your parents being a martyr, then you're in the good category.

So he created a pressure pump. So what do you do now? Well, critical race theory tells you that your national origin, your skin color and all of this stuff is a problem. So what can you do? Well, you better get activated. You have to become an activist. You have to become an ally, but it's still not good enough. Allyship is problematic. You're just doing it to make yourself look good. You're just trying to get out of your feelings of racism.

This is the narrative from CRT and it is complete poison, but what do they dangle out over here? Sexual identities. Well, those are subjective, aren't they? Can't you just decide you're bisexual this morning? Can anybody question it? That's the more important part. Can anybody, if you showed up at school tomorrow and said, I'm pansexual and demiromantic, could a single person at your school tell you, no, you're not?

They absolutely cannot. So guess what? There is a not just social contagion, meaning your friends are like, oh, this is what's cool. Not just an incentive structure, but also a pressure pump, an identity politics pressure pump to push people into identifying this way to escape the bullying and the oppression and the stuff that you're all raising your hand that you relate to, to escape all of those pressures. All you have to do is come out as some sexual or gender identity and then they'll celebrate you. They'll affirm you.

They'll give you special privileges. You're the king and queen of the prom. You can be Miss Netherlands or whatever it is.

If you're a man, you could be Miss Netherlands. That's right. Yeah. Male. Male. Or you could be a social media influencer.

You could be an influencer and have to move to Peru. Yeah. So, so James, I want to get to some questions here cause I, I, I know the audience is, how great is James by the way?

That's Mal by the way. And so James, I want you to do this quickly cause I really want to get to questions. Name three of your principles that you are writing extensively about that could be applicable to them. The most applicable to them because you're developing these rules. Yeah.

I'm working on developing these rules. So the first issue that's applicable to you, I already told you it's, this is the most important one, which is love the truth. You have to start loving. It's a relationship with the truth. You have to start loving the truth. You have to take it in that, that regard. If you don't, then, then you're lost. You have no chance.

Second one. This is actually something I'm reappropriating from them, which is usually a powerful thing to do. There is a guy, a communist guy and then a socialist back in the sixties who became conservative and he wrote down this rule explaining what he experienced in the sixties radical environment and it was the issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution. That means the thing they're trying to make you argue about, they're trying to make you argue about so they can do something else. So if you can learn, you've probably heard us talk about before, you've got to be discerning. You've got to be able to figure out why they want you to argue about sex, gender, sexuality. When I said all this stuff about why is there this incentive structure and then there's this pressure.

This is Maoism. They have a purpose for that. If you learn to start identifying that the thing that they are making you deal with is not what they're actually interested in, but they have a purpose. Then when you start to call it out, you can start to call it out properly.

You get to call it out. Not in terms of that's not, you know, you're racist. No, I'm not. Yes you are. No, I'm not. That's what they want. You're racist.

You want to control me. That's a completely different dynamic. So that's the second thing.

Love the truth. The issue is not the issue. They're trying to tangle you up in a BS argument that they can manipulate you with.

They're trying to control you is always the answer. And the third thing, this is the Daniel Penny rule. This is the biggest one. Listen close. Always do the right thing, especially when it's costly. The more they make it cost you to do the right thing, the more important it is to do the right thing. The more likely you are to get in trouble for telling the truth, the more it is necessary you tell the truth and tell the truth today.

It will be worse in a week, in a month, in a year. Always do the right thing. So why do I call it the Daniel Penny rule? You guys know who Daniel Penny is.

Daniel Penny is the guy on the New York subway that put the guy in the choke hold that was being a total threat to the whole subway car. Threatening everybody. He was threatening everybody. He puts him in a choke hold, restrains him, and unfortunately the man dies later. So now he's being perp walked and embarrassed and humiliated and put on trial by this corrupt blue city DA. He did the right thing.

They're making him pay. And the narrative that you're seeing all over social media and the thing that they used to call the Ferguson effect with the police is, oh, well, they're just not going to do it now. They've learned their lesson. New Yorkers learn their lesson not to stand up for the protection of innocent people. BS.

You can't be that person. The more they make it cost you to do the right thing, the more important it is to do the right thing. You must always do the right next thing, always.

I love it. All right. Let's get to some questions. And I think we have roaming mics, guys.

Try to make the questions around these themes we're talking about. And I just want to compliment and encourage you guys. I was so blown away by spending time with you upstairs at the breakfast. You guys are so impressive, James. Don't you agree? I mean, I've been mingling.

These people are awesome. I mean, and this is, there's a lot of hope for America and I feel it. I know the, I love coming to turning point because I come away with hope for America every single time.

And saying that since 2020, the first time you had me out, that's that, that means a lot, James, because you're invited to a lot of different groups. I am biased, but when one of you guys become a billionaire, please help make turning point even bigger because we, we, we, we need to bring this thing. We need to defeat the cultural revolution.

Am I right? We need to defeat these, these bad, bad guys. Chloe, I think the great Chloe has a question.

Dr. Lindsay. I was once in the native American literature class and I took a slightly unorthodox approach to writing papers. I did not go scorched earth and dismantle their entire the old ideology, but I didn't as Ben Shapiro said, like lie way, way through college. Instead, I use their leftist language to convince them of conservative rhetoric.

In this case, it was like a writer of any race can write compelling characters writers in any other race. Do you think there's any value in this approach? Yeah, I actually do.

I actually do. What we have is you, what you're facing by the way is a whole lot of people. Most of the people, you know, maybe are in a cult and cult deprogramming is hard. That's why you can't just go give them a fact and they change their mind.

People say, how do you get people out of a cult? Well, the trick is you got to think of it, it's like they're in propaganda space. Their head is all clouded up. They can't see the truth. They can't love the truth. They can't even see the truth. And so what you have to do is there are different techniques that work with different people.

Some people laugh their way out. Some people get convinced by some fact they can't square. Some people get held to their own principles to kind of parody or to parrot Mr. Alinsky to turn their own principle back on them. This is an effective tactic. There are a lot of effective tactics and so I talk a lot about, you guys have got to think about different strategies.

I say, you know, all these different things to tell the truth, et cetera, but I wrote fake papers too. So there are different ways to deal with this. This is a very effective way to cut in and make them reconsider their principles. I'm hearing this happening with Antifa members in California right now where people are going out and actually trying to talk to them and they're shaking some of them loose.

It's unbelievable that it's working with those people. That's a very effective tactic. In general, you either are going to go scorched earth and argue, in which case you've done the right thing when it was hard to do and you're going to face the consequences and you need to do it like an adult man or woman.

Fine. You can do exactly that kind of thing. Try to understand their principles, their language, use it against them and get them to shake loose.

That's great too. You can also, a third thing you can do is, and this is a story straight out of one of Mao's prisons. There was a psychiatrist that studied people coming out of Mao's brainwashing prisons and there was one guy, it barely affected at all. And they were like, well, why didn't it almost, he's barely brainwashed, like didn't change his personality. He's not messed up. He's not like got all these problems.

What's the deal? And it turns out the guy was a scientist. And so he started studying the brainwashing process as a scientist. He started to use it for a purpose. In other words, he was spying on them, trying to figure out how they think.

Those of you that are interested in going to law school, you need to study how the left manipulates law on top of studying law itself and you need to come out the strongest, most conservative weapon for the law that's ever happened. All of these are different approaches that can work. They depend on you, on your temperament. When I say that you got to do the right thing, you have to ask yourself what the right thing is for you. Some of you have the temperament to do that. Some of you don't. That's fine.

You have to ask yourself and you have to live truly to who you are and that's going to be authentic and that's going to cut through and work. So it's a great tactic though. Thank you for saying that. That's great. All right. Let's get to the next question. To your right. Yep. Is that Lacey over there? Hi, Charlie and Dr. Lindsay.

My name is Sophia Paliuca. I am the chapter president at Clemson University and I know you talked about the CCP infiltrating starting in 1949 but didn't make any sudden movement until the sixties. I graduated from high school just a few years ago and I don't remember any of these social issues being as rampant as they are today. So I'm wondering what your opinion on or what your opinion is on when this started. When did this begin? When did all this insanity was suddenly introduced? When did that happen and how can we ensure that this or discontinue really the current climate of that political discourse? Yeah.

Okay. So these ideas started to infiltrate the universities in these schools very significantly just for the background that you asked for in the 1960s and 70s, particularly the 1970s. The schools of education became the target of activism at the academic level in the 1980s so that all of the colleges of education became based on what's called critical pedagogy or Marxist education theory by 1992.

So this started to create a generational program. So they started in the 60s and 70s, they started to get professors who were very radical. They started to indoctrinate the next generation of teachers and professors.

By the 90s, they started getting K through 12 teachers in on their program and so by 2012 to 15 or so, they had actually kind of softened up or demoralized enough people in my generation to where the people in your generation were sitting ducks as children that they could really go hard on. They did not start properly with our cultural revolution. The reason you've seen this stuff go absolutely bonkers in the last little while, even though it's been ramping up for 50 years, they did not pull the trigger, so to speak. Think of that as they're getting their ammunition, they're loading their weapon, et cetera.

They're aiming, they're citing the target. They didn't pull the trigger until George Floyd died and COVID happened somewhere in early 2020. That's when they decided, now we are doing a revolution in this country. That was their D-Day Pearl Harbor, whatever equivalent you want to make. That was when they said, boom, we have the opening, bomb them. That also, and this is part of why it's so crazy, was the day or the month or whatever when they decided we can't go back. We started this, there's only one way, the only way out is through. They cannot go back.

The saying is that they crossed the Rubicon and they know they crossed it. That's why they won't back off, that's why they won't apologize and you have to understand that about them. They will not back off. You have to stop them, but they will not back off on their own. They're fully committed, but that's why it's so new is they launched the full blown program with COVID and George Floyd. They will only stop if we stop them.

That's the only way they stop. Okay. I want, this will be the final question. Where are we at here? On the other side? Yes. Hi.

I want to ask you. I've seen a lot of popular figures who before they really entered into the mainstream, they were doing incredible work, really contributing to intellectual dialogue, but once they began to pick up fame, they began to slide and really get sort of taken in by the leftist toxicity, leaning more and more left, putting conservative values down lower in priority. And so I was wondering if you have any advice, because hopefully some people here, we will someday be very prominent figures about how we can resist not falling into leftist traps and really still standing for conservative values.

Well, the short answer to this really is that it's the same reason that you're not dipping into, and I'm not talking about being homosexual, but you're not dipping into queer politics. It's the same pressure pumps exist within, when you start to become successful, especially if you start to become successful in media or information or something like this. You become a talking head or a thought leader or a media personality or somebody that gets to go on TV.

They make it very, very, very hard for you. They play games. Here's a game.

You've probably noticed this game. Somebody like myself gets invited to go on, say, Fox News or Tucker Carlson or something. We go talk on Tucker Carlson. None of the left-wing outlets, CNN, MSNBC, none of them will have us whatsoever, and then they come out and say, oh, he's a darling of right-wing media.

He only goes on right-wing media, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they trap you, and what they do is they cut off huge opportunities. There are things that have not just media and exposure opportunities, but huge amounts of money, future opportunities, how you could come work with our foundation. You could come and have this prestigious fellowship. You could blah, blah, blah.

The only way you can get them, though, is if you make a few changes. We've got to be careful about what we say. We've got to be careful about how we think. We've got to, you know, give a little bit over here, and they will tempt you. The devil doesn't just kind of show up one day and say, hey, by the way, would you like to sign up here?

I mean, maybe if you're Maui did. But otherwise, he doesn't just show up one day and say, hey, sign over everything. What he does is he asks you to lie a little bit, lie a little bit, to give a little bit of yourself away, to fit in, to gain prestige, to gain power, to gain money, little by little by little by little. So every time you tell a lie to fit in with your social group, you've sold a piece of your soul. Every time you capitulate to a struggle session and just confess a little, maybe I was a little racist. No, you weren't. You're good people. No, you weren't.

No, you weren't. You sell a little bit of your soul. Every time for your specific question, every time you say, you know what, I'll compromise on my principles for opportunity or money, you sold a much bigger piece of your soul.

Those temptations will be everywhere, and you have to be willing to discern them and say no, it's not worth my soul to have more fame or more money. So and I want to add on to what James said here in closing. Always tell the truth, yes, but remember the Ten Commandments are written in the negative. Do not give false testimony against your neighbor. It's better to just first say don't lie, and then if you tell the truth, that's even better. Okay? And I might say, well, Charlie, isn't that the same thing? No, those are two different things. Not lying and telling the truth are actually fundamentally two different things in ethics.

So let's all start with what is the marching order from Turning Point USA's chapter leader? Do not lie. Don't lie about even the small things. Where were you? What were you doing?

What are you eating? What do you believe? Just don't lie. You'd be amazed if you start to police your own language and your behaviors, how much you've actually probably grown accustomed to little white lies and little skimming of the edges, that allows the enemy to win. But when you become 100% honest in everything you do, you become a happier person. The most unhappy people are people that lie all the time. They're the most tyrannical people, the most authoritarian people, the most depressed people. And so, James, you have one minute remaining. Final thoughts, these are our 600 top high school and college leaders influencing hundreds of thousands of people.

This is the Navy SEAL's Green Beret of the freedom fighting movement to launch a counter offensive sabotage campaign against the Maoist final marching orders. It's real simple, guys. They need you. They need you very, very, very badly. They need you and they need your peers, which means if they don't get you and your peers, they fail.

They have no chance unless they take over the next generation and make them conform to woke goofiness or whatever else they bring down the pike next week, climate sustainability or whatever else, which means you are the bulwark. You are the thing standing in the gap. So you have to do everything that we've said. You have to do the hard thing or the right thing when it costs you. You have to tell the truth.

You have to be able to be discerning to know that they're trying to control you and refuse to be controlled. You have to do these things and you have to keep being a beacon for your classmates, for your schoolmates, for the other people on your campus. You have to keep doing the tables. You have to get out. You have to be visible. You have to be a thorn in their side. You've got to just keep going.

The most, I got 20 seconds, the most important thing in the world is they win when you quit. Do not quit. Do not quit.

James Lindsay, everybody. Thanks man. Thanks so much for listening. Everybody email us your thoughts. There's always freedom at charliekirk.com.

Thanks so much for listening and God bless. You're on the office on eggshells and have my words policed by H.R. Words like grandfather, peanut gallery, long time no see, no can do. When I grow up, I want to be obsessed with emotional safety and do workplace sensitivity training all day long. When I grow up, I want to climb the corporate ladder just by following the crowd. I want to be a conformist. I want to weaponize my pronouns.

What are pronouns? It's time to grow up and get back to work. Introducing the number one woke free job board in America, red balloon dot work.