Pack-a-Day Podcast's Andy Herman on the new expectations in Green Bay

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You need Indeed. Good morning, everybody. My name is Bart Winkler and this is the Bart Winkler show for Tuesday, the 11th of July. It is the day of the MLB All-Star game.

Looking forward to that, obviously, and also going to do a live show afterwards. The Bucks have the Nets tonight. We'll talk about that and then we'll break down the All-Star game if you want to do that. I think the best way we're going to, you know, how do you make the All-Star game better? How do you make the All-Star game better? The All-Star game is fine. You make it better by having guys wear their normal jerseys.

You can sell the like ones you make to sell. But if Corbin Burns pitches tonight, I want to see Corbin Burns in his Brewers jersey. I can't believe we've robbed that aesthetic away from these games. Whenever you think of great All-Star games, that's what you picture. NBA too. Now it's just some bland ass jersey. I mean, they can make cool ones and you know, people like to buy them. The first year that the Brewers had a bunch of All-Stars, we all bought the jerseys.

I had a Corey Hart shirt from when he went to an All-Star game in New York. But during the game, where are the jerseys? I guess what the point is is, you know, you're watching the game and then first inning, second inning, by the third inning, you say, you know what? I think I'm going to buy what I'm seeing right there.

That's the logic behind it, I guess. I don't know. Just where the normal jerseys. That's where we're at. It's July 11th. The Brewers are off with the All-Star week. I'll talk to Tim Shea about the second half coming up sometime this week. So the Brewers are off, the Bucks Summer League, two days off.

Hopefully they don't get the Vegas flu in their Tuesday game. What's the point of Summer League anyway? Why is it so early?

Why, why is it happen? Like it's cool, but then they're just not going to do anything. They draft all these guys, they get them in action right away and then they don't do anything for two months. And then guys play one game. Oh no, Victor Webb and Yama sucks.

Then he's a good game. Okay, I'm done. If you can't, if Adam Silver can't get these guys to play for the Summer League trophy.

Okay. How is he going to get them to play for the NBA cup? Real talk. It's the Summer League trophy. The Bucks, they left and said, we're on the way to win a championship. They, they, they're determined. They're coming back from deficits. They want to win.

Victor Webb and Yama. I don't know. I think he got a question in his head.

I think you do. After two games, he's, he's quitting the Summer League. Now I actually, I don't know, are the Spurs even winning?

I haven't even checked that. You need to be the Summer League. There is a championship, but they all play four games and then like seven teams finish undefeated and they pick the top two based on, I don't know what. So it's kind of dumb, but there is a championship and the Bucks are 2-0. And so I'm going to root for the Bucks to, to win that championship. And they've got the Nets, I believe Tuesday night, Andy Herman's going to be on today's episode.

We're going to, we're going to get Herman and then we're going to be deuces. Okay. So this will probably be a little shorter than the average affair, which is fine. They don't all need to be like, I got in this, I got in this habit where they, I had to be an hour. It has to be, it doesn't have to be anything. I could just press enter on this and put it out.

Will it have changed anybody's life? No, I call it a shorty. I call it a Chuck Freeman shorty. Chuck and Tim were on the game together and I'm okay.

Like not giving last names or context, which I usually try to do because if you're listening in the dead of summer you know, you're, I, I, I love you. If you're listening in the dead of summer and if I say Chuck and Tim, you know, I'm talking about Chuck Freeman and Tim Allen. And when I say the game, you probably know 97 three, the game, a station where they didn't exist and then they did. And now we don't, but Tim Allen's over there hosting for Mike Heller and Chuck Freeman's co-hosting with him. The game hired Chuck, my old partner, they hired Chuck.

They did like a week long Chuck Stravaganza. And then nobody knows where he is. He's doing like updates in Madison and lockdown brewers. You've got Chuck Freeman on your payroll. Get that guy some work. Freems pardon my French, but the guy's a goddamn legend.

Get that guy some work. So great to see him with Tim. And I'm sure they had a good time. Wish that we were in a place where I could call in and say hi, but I don't know that it'd be put through on the board. Happyplaceamp.com. The promo code is Bart. I do like to talk about them from time to time. And you should too. I've got a bunch of the gummies actually where I am. I am taping right now in my bedroom.

I'm getting a new AC. So does that make my podcast better if I go from the, if I go from the basement to the bedroom? I'm going up two floors.

Does that count for people who call me a basement boy? And I'm actually showing to my camera the full spectrum gummies that I have in my hand, but I'm not releasing this part of video. So I don't know why I just did this whole, I can shake it and you can hear them. This is the sound of gummies.

Do you hear that? I'm opening it. Do you want a little Happy Place Hemp ASMR? Here is the gummy. I'm like, I'll put it on my tongue. I'll put it on my teeth. Happy Place Hemp promo code is Bart. Now I want to take a gummy.

I got to go pick up my kid here in a minute and talk to the Hermanator. Happy Place Hemp promo code is Bart. 25% off every order of the gummies, the balms, the lotions. I've talked a lot about the gummies, but they do have other products with CBD that might help whether it's on a sore or your wrist might be sore. You might have like, what's the thing called when you, what's that called? You type arthritis? That could be it. No, that's not what I'm thinking of. Carpal tunnel. If you have that, you know, whatever.

If you, if you have plantar fasciitis, cause your feet don't want to walk with the body that's given to it. It's all great. Happy Place Hemp.com the promo code is Bart. 25% off each and every order. Andy Herman from the Pack A Day podcast. This was his like part-time hobby thing. He left his re he left the nine to five biz. He's doing Pack A Day now full time. The guy is his own content machine.

Andy Herman coming up next. We're driven by the search for better, but when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search match with Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors. According to Indeed data and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast leveraging over 140 million qualifications and preferences every day.

Indeed's matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences. Join more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash blue wire. Just go to Indeed.com slash blue wire right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash blue wire terms and conditions apply. Need to hire?

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Match on transfers subject to additional terms and conditions. Robinhood financial LLC, member SIPC. Andy Herman, the aforementioned from the Packaday podcast. You can check him out. Uh, Andy Herman, I'm very proud of you. I'm like, I'm proud of you because you did something on your own and you made it work, but you also, now I'm like, now I gotta like get to Herman levels where I can like, I, I, I aspire to be you.

No, nobody's ever said that before. First of all, nobody has aspired to Herman levels. Uh, usually they fall down to Herman levels, but no, I really appreciate it. Um, never really when I, when I randomly thought of the Packaday podcast, uh, what over five years ago now, never in a million years that I think that this would be something that I would be dedicating, uh, you know, my, my full-time to, uh, but it has been really fricking awesome. And, uh, yeah, I just super pumped about it and, uh, really appreciate that.

Excited to be talking to you today. I don't remember what your old handle was, but I remember the change to Andy Herman NFL at Scotty sports. So yeah, like that's the crazy thing, right? So that was a blog of mine, which was what, probably 15 years ago now where I don't know, maybe like all of three people, uh, decided to chime in or, you know, to, to read what I was actually, uh, you know, doing every day, but I was covering badgers, brewers, box packers, doing everything and, you know, writing three or four little blog posts every single day.

And like I said, there's maybe like three or four people reading it. And then, um, you know, you go to that, to title town, sound off title, town, sound, and she said, TV, she said, TV to pack a report pack a day. And before you know it, crazy stuff's happening.

So, and then you go from at Scotty sports that Andy Herman NFL and the whole world changes. So never know what's going to happen. Are you like doing threads or what you have to, I am on threads.

It's more of a, you know, break glass. Everybody's there, but nobody like everyone's there just, and they keep being like more followers, like that's cause you just, you just link your Instagram. Well, I didn't have, I've never really done anything with Instagram.

So that was a great, great personal decision on my end. I like, I just never had any time, like outside of what I was doing before my full-time job to do anything outside of what I was doing plus Twitter already. And I'm like, I've got like, you know, whatever many followers on Twitter, I'm like, I'm not going to like start focusing on like, I'm going to start with zero somewhere else.

Like that sounded terrible. So I'm like, let me just focus on Twitter and try to do well on that. But I think it's more of a, you know, break glass in case of emergency sort of threads, like, all right, if Twitter dies tomorrow, which who knows at this point, like I need to have something where I can get stuff out there. So sure. It's fine for that. I hope I don't ever really need to use it in a huge capacity. I don't think it's going to take off, but I also don't want to be like Al Roker and Katie Couric, like what is internet? You know, I don't want to like be that clip. All right.

So find Annie Herman, wherever you get your threads. There's a few weeks yet until we actually get into the thick of it, but you did go to mini camp and you were able to get some takeaways. And, you know, it's kind of like what the NBA does is they draft everybody, they show them off at summer league, then they're going to disappear for two months. Everybody comes there. It's great stuff. We're like, all right, Packer season.

Let's, let's go. We get to hear Jordan Love. We get all this stuff.

And then it's two months of like, nothing having it been about a month. Who are the people that like, and I think the tight ends might fall in this category, but who are the people that you guys got to see really fun and up close that once it gets to a bigger scale in training camp, that you're excited for like everybody else to kind of discover you, you know, church or practice. Yeah.

I'll start by saying this. There've been two players who have been sort of living rent-free in my head ever since many camps and OTAs that I'm just been super like juiced up by. And I can't, you know, I'm excited to see more of them. That's Luke Musgrave is number one. And then of course the talk of OTAs in many camps, which was Romeo Dobbs, like those are the two players to me that have been super exciting. And I like, you see what Romeo was able to do on the outside with, you know, what Matt Leflore described as, I think he said like aggressive cuts and like just his route running has been improved.

And like, I think he said something like he's doing extraordinary things out there, something to that extent. And just seeing what he was able to do at many camps and OTAs and see that connection with Jordan Love, that was really exciting. And then I think Luke Musgrave to finally see a tight end on the roster that has some of that Jermichael Finley ability that Green Bay has been so desperately needed since basically Jermichael Finley was gone. Just the size, the speed, the body control, the hands, like it was just something to behold and something special to see even in those first few practices.

Now, Luke, not a finished product. Some of the run blocking stuff is going to be a massive work in progress for him this season. We know how hard it is for tight ends to come in and be productive in year one. So I think for both of them, I'm trying to do the best that I can to pump the brakes in my own mind and being like, all right, it's probably not going to be that great, but those have been the two that really stood out and I think are really easy to get excited about. Another one that just sort of a little bit under the radar more was Carrington Valentine. And I think we sort of forget like our Eric Stokes, we're not exactly sure where he's going to be coming off the injury. And then you've got Rizul and Jair on the outside. You've got Keyshawn in the slot.

And then what? And it's like, if Eric all of a sudden isn't ready to go, you're like one injury away from either a Carrington Valentine or a Shamar Jean Charles or you know what a Corey Ballantine away from like playing like, we're not talking like a handful of snaps. We're talking like every snap, like every, if, if, if Eric's not ready to go right away. So the fact that Carrington Valentine came in and made some really impressive plays, you showed off his athleticism. Again, I'm not saying like, Oh my God, like they got the next Sam Shields out of nowhere or anything like that, but he's been another player that I'm really excited for people to see because he was, he was impressive in, in many camps and OTAs. Well, that's like the stuff that I can't wait to see more of with the practices, you know, because there, it is a weird situation then going into this year without Aaron Rogers, because it's kind of like, all right, now we can spread the attention to the other 52 guys. Although we still really can't because now it's Jordan Love taking over for Aaron Rogers.

We've seen him a little bit in some games, right? The chief's game where he didn't like play as he got better as the game went on a little bit in the Eagles game, but we haven't seen like the Aaron Rogers comes in Thursday night against the Cowboys. We all like nobody coming into that Rogers year thought that he was going to be bad. We all like, I don't know if we thought he was gonna be a hall of Famer, but we thought, okay, he can, I mean, the Packers did draft a bunch of guys, but like Brian braum and stuff, but I think there was more optimism towards Rogers with love, just the default around the league is, Oh, well the Packers have love and he's going to suck. Like everyone just thinks that we're going to suck because he's going to suck. My theory still is that Rogers at four and eight injured did not want to not play because he didn't want the world to see five weeks of Jordan love, because then everyone would say, okay, the Packers are ready to move on. Just like that.

He was with seeing him like you did. I just want to get your thoughts on, on what you think he is, but really what you think like he can be like what Jordan love is going to be amazing. I mean, Daniel Jones this year, is he going to be Mitch Trubisky?

Is he going to be like, I don't know where on the scale to expect. And that's why when we do like win loss stuff, right? I don't, I don't even like, I don't even know. I don't know this, this team is such a mystery. And a lot of it starts with, with Jordan love.

I'll use an Aaron Rogers ism, right? It's a beautiful mystery. And I think that's why I'm so excited for the season. I have no idea. I have no idea what this is going to be. I have no idea what Jordan love is going to be. I like to think that like, I had like a small inkling of like where this is headed, but like, it may, if you told me that like, this was like a three and 14 team, like, I think that would be very aggressive, but like, I like, if you told me like five, six wins, I think that's within the realm of possibility. I think the high end, I don't know, maybe 10, 11 wins. Like, I think that's maybe within the realm of possibility, like more likely something in the middle, but I'll start with what I, so I've been going back and I've been watching all of last year.

I don't recommend it to anybody. It's not doing that. It just seems like it's not last year. It didn't feel good during it's even worse after, but there's some fun stuff to take away. And there's some things that I, you know, you forget that happened and you're like, Oh yeah, this is great. There's some other things that you forgot happening. You're like, Oh man, like they might have even been way worse than an eight, nine football team.

So you land somewhere in the middle, of course. But one of the things that's really stood out to me is just how many of Aaron Rogers successful passing plays were like. We're pretty close to like, you and I may have been able to complete them like little pop passes, like to Christian Watson, like little screens to the outside, running back screens, tight end screens, you know, little plays in the middle of the field, those little, um, like obviously the, the bootlegs where you've just got a tight end, just chilling in the flat, like wide open, like a lot of it was scheme stuff. And I like a part of me just wanted to go through and do this, but I can't bring myself to chart 600 passing plays from a season ago at this point. I just, it's probably not in the cards. Um, but I know, right. So like a part of me wanted to be like, all right, what of like all of Aaron Rogers passing stats, like what could have like, uh, even semi competent NFL thrower could have completed.

I think it's relatively high now. Of course, defenses are going to play Jordan differently. Aaron's ability pre snap plays a huge part in this. Like there's a lot that goes into this, but just the throws, there was a lot of stuff that I'm watching them like, yeah, Jordan could easily make that play. Jordan could easily make that throw. Jordan could easily do that. And it doesn't, it's not because it's like, I have a huge faith in Jordan is just like stuff's either wide open or it's just schemed up stuff. So I think there's a lot of that, that if, you know, Jordan's just able to sort of run the offense, I think there's going to be a lot of low hanging fruit there. And I think just the ability for him to reopen up the middle of the field, partially because Aaron was so allergic to it, partially because you have a guy like maybe Luke Musgrave and Tucker craft who are going to be operating in that space with a little bit more talent and juice than some of the guys that Aaron's had in the past. I think that's going to bring a different dimension to this offense.

What that means. I have no idea where I'm kind of at right now is I kind of think this team is going to be better than the team from a season ago, but that also might come actually with a worse record. I go back and I watched that team. I'm not sure that that was a eight, nine team.

I see that's where they ended. So that's what their record was. I think that team played worse than an eight, nine team through the vast majority of last season, they kind of got Baker Mayfield in the Rams towards the end of bear's team. That was the worst in football. They get two wins off of that. Like to me, there's some, there were some easy wins there. This might be a team and a quarterback that plays better than that last year, but maybe still ends up, you know, six, seven wins. As long as it's progressing in the right direction.

I still think that can be okay though. I think, uh, as I'm talking with Andy Herman and you guys can watch this on the Dan Cheney YouTube stream, love it, youtube.com backslash Bart Winkler show, and check out my guy, Dan selling insurance, homework and auto and business, Dan Cheney.com does it all. And he's, he's like, he's like, you know, independent guy, like you and me now.

Love it. Um, I, I wonder about the Leflore aspect of it because I don't know if he's a good coach. I think that he, I think that he, like, I think that he is, and we've seen a little bit of it, but Leflore and I think you just did a piece on this too. The other day, Leflore seems to be a guy who understands a lot about football and routes, and there's going to be some fun concepts and maybe things that he would have wanted to Institute earlier, but like all these coaches, and this is why I confidently always say not as a joke that if I just had to be the game management guy, like put me on the sideline for 60 minutes, every Sunday, I will win nine games. I will win as a coach nine football games. Cause all these guys get in there and we like assume that NFL coaches are so smart, but then all these situations come up and the floor seems to be, you can watch him experience these things for the first time in real time. And then even if he's not the one that screws up, he's always the one that goes, ah, my bad, my bad. And it's like, good to be humble, but at some point you're telling us over and over that you stink. So I don't know if he's a good coach.

I hope we at least get an answer to that this year. The, the, my bad thing works really well when you're going 13 wins every year, like, right. Like it's like, oh, that's kind of cute that he's like the one taking the blame for those couple of losses here and there, but like, yeah, exactly. When you're four and eight, it hits a little bit differently. Right. And it's like, yeah, it is your fault. What do you, what do you mean? Yeah, of course it's your fault.

It just hits a little bit different. I do appreciate in general him, you know, obviously taking that responsibility, especially the media, right? Like he can point fingers as much as you want and call people out behind closed doors, but to the media, just to be the guy that's like the fall guy and like, yeah, you know what?

Quay totally blew a coverage, but you know what? That's on me. Of course it's not on Matt, but like it is what it is. And I generally like that he does that. But you know, as far as, you know, Matt, as a coach, I just did a, an episode on this. Like, I think one of the things like the Packers in general are like loyal to a fault sometimes like Joe Berry probably should not still be here.

Right. Like, I don't think I'm breaking any news to people, but this is a team that's incredibly loyal to their coaches, to their staff, to their players. You know, Brian keeps every one of his draft picks pretty much every single year, right on time. And, you know, I think we've seen some support decisions from a personnel standpoint. How many times a year do we hear Matt say we got to get our best five guys on the offensive line out on the field. You go back to the divisional round game. I know a lot of people did not love the fact that they went with Billy Turner at left tackle and Dennis Kelly at right tackle.

They thought y'all should have been out there in 2020. You've got Lucas Patrick starting with Rick, Rick, Rick Wagner and John Runyon Jr. On the bench. 2021 Lucas Patrick and Royce Newman are starting over Yash Neiman, John Runyon Jr. And Dennis Kelly Royce Newman in 2021 played 1,084 snaps. Most of those with you guys like Yash, Dennis Kelly, John Runyon Jr. On the bench in 2022 Royce Newman and Jake Hanson are starting Zach, Tom and Yash Neiman are on the bench.

It took forever to get Zach Tom out on the field, which seems egregious. You have Elton start at right tackle. When again, you've got guys like Yash on the bench and other players who could have played that position. You can move, you know, Elton inside, which they eventually do, but it took far too long. In 2019, Lane Taylor starting over Elton Jenkins, probably not a great idea.

I think their plan was to split time until Elton took over, but still just get Elton out on the field. You've got Amari Rogers returning kicks and punts instead of Keyshawn Nixon last year, which is just painful when you go back and watch it. Sammy Watkins, sniping stats, snaps from way more talented guys like Romeo Dobbs and Christian Watson for getting Aaron Jones, giving ender rounds and reverses to Allen Lazard, um, residual doublets in the slot.

Like we can go on and on. Like, there's just some depth chart decisions where you're just like, you know, in hindsight, these did not age very well. And you just like to see Matt be a little bit more ahead of that than maybe staying loyal. And I think part of it was probably part of it is like part of it's positional coaches and what they want. Part of it's the other GM that was out on the field, playing quarterback for the last handful of seasons where I'm sure Billy Turner starting that left tackle. I think Aaron probably had some say into some of that stuff.

So I think it's juggling all of that, but I would just like to see it be a little bit better moving forward. Not having Aaron there. I mean, that's gotta be like, like, I don't know. I've, I've retired from talking about Aaron Rogers in terms of his personality and all this kind of stuff. And so like, I don't do it. I'm not talking about the jets.

I don't even, I get it. I think they're going to be bad though. Probably not, but whatever.

I think you're, I don't think you're necessarily wrong. That is a tough conference, a tough division and an extremely tough schedule. I think they'll get a boost from like the Aaron's our quarterback and everyone's all in to begin with.

But I do think that that is not going to go quite as swimmingly as I think some people think it's going to like that. A lot of Mets fans are jets fans. And it's going to be like this. I feel like it's going to be the same thing where there's Scott anyway, jets don't care. Yep. When you're Matt, the floor though, and you get hired, you walk in, this is your first job.

Yep. For the Green Bay Packers, like Vince Lombardi coached this team. Oh man, Mike McCarthy strong up in that jacket. I wish he would have won that game, even though we won, but you come here and it's like, it's sometimes, you know, you get a job and like the boss is in the way, but he is the boss.

Yet there's this quarterback that carries such an aura with him that you can't like, he, he couldn't fully be himself. And I don't know if, you know, we talk about Rogers learning under from under farm, worked out pretty good. Hopefully Jordan love having three years worked out pretty good. I hope that the floor, like, I hope that the four years with Rogers makes him a better coach and freeze him up a little bit, but I also hope that it didn't get him into like bad habits or, or something. I don't know. I don't know.

You, you called the floor a net positive. Yep. I hope that his experience with Rogers is a net positive for him going forward instead of like, I hope that he just, you know, sometimes it's one thing to break free, but I don't, I hope he's not too tainted by the experience. And I think that's like, this season would be interesting. That's not something you can quantify, you know?

No, no, no. I think this season would be interesting in and of itself. If this was just like, like take, take all the past away and just be like, if this was the team where you've got Jordan love as a first year starting quarterback, and you've got all these young wide receivers, all these young tight ends, and like, there's so much interesting and, you know, about this team where it just, again, we don't know what's going to happen.

There's a lot of volatility with this team. I think it's fun to watch, but adding on the layer of like, what does a Green Bay Packers team look like post Aaron Rogers? Because we all know the positives that came from Aaron and like that guy is basically giving you a almost automatic ticket into the playoffs every year. And usually a puncher's chance at like advancing well into the playoffs has always worked out that way. We know, but like you have so much leeway when you've got that guy as you're starting quarterback, but there were also some strings attached to it. And I think this franchise is going to feel some of the pains of not having like that automatic ticket, that guy that at any moment could run the table and just be like, all right, I'm better than everyone else.

And I'm going to go on like an eight game win streak, basically by myself, that there's going to be pains in that. But I do think that this franchise, this coaching staff, and even some of the players on this team are going to feel a little bit less of that stress and that burden. And just some of the things that also came along with Aaron, I look at Josh Myers as an example of this, like Aaron got after Josh Myers all the time was yelling at him a lot. And I think part of it, I think Josh just kind of needs to play and not have that kind of like, just like, like looking over your literally looking over your shoulder being like, Oh God, like Aaron's right by, is he going to get mad at me for something I do? I think you could see a guy like Josh Myers just being like, okay, that that's gone. Like I can just go out and play football now.

I think that could be a potential net positive. I think Matt Leflore having the ability, like he's such a liar, right? Because when he was asked the question of like, what does this offense look like without, you know, Aaron Rogers and are you going to be able to run more of your stuff?

He's like, what do you mean this has been like, no, you're lying. Like this is going to look a lot different in my opinion with no Aaron Rogers. I think Matt, Matt's going to be freed up a little bit. So the, all of this, that what is a Green Bay Packers team look like post Aaron Rogers is such an interesting, like just that in and of itself would get me to tune in every single week, but add in all of the other stuff on top of this, like it's just this huge matzo ball of like all this crazy stuff that has happened in a super young team. And we are about to find out a ton about Gooty and Leflore and Jordan Love and everyone in one season. And it's to me, it's like, must watch. I can't wait for it.

Oh, I think a lot of people are as excited as they've been in a while. I like, I like to bring up, um, I worked in a call center for a year and a half selling cables and charger. Um, it was awful, but this was the, this was the, uh, paradox that I got in. Why I hated it was because we, I hate it for a lot of reasons. What I hated the most was they would take you basically air check you. So you'd have a meeting once a week and you'd listen to a call that you did with someone.

Yep. It is the worst experience in the world. Um, cause you're listening to yourself thinking of all these things. So we'd have this meeting and I'd be nervous. Cause I know the day of that.

Those are the calls they're listening to and they're going to pick one from that day. So I'm very fearful and I suck all day. Cause I know the judgment's coming. We'd have the meeting. Then I'd go out there and crush it.

Cause I knew they weren't listening to those calls. And then I could just be me and do better. So it looked like it looks like the meeting works when actually it's just, I'm not scared of the meeting. So I think with the, the case that you brought up, maybe that will help to not, I don't know. I don't know about like your whole real life career, but I just found like, I don't like to be told what to do.

So like, I don't like managing out of fear. And when you play with Aaron Rogers, like when Christian Watson dropped that pass right away against the Vikings, I think my guy grant bill said something like that's a season defining change. It is that the season is so different. If he catches that ball, the fear thing, the fact that he bounced back from that and had the season that he did once he got back from injury is like even that much more impressive for Christian Watson because yeah, that, that could have been the moment of the season for him.

And the fact that he had three touchdown games and like that, like, I was very impressed with his ability ultimately to bounce back. But yeah, talk about it with just like that, that was the like harbinger of things to come for the remainder of the season. It felt like, like we should have known right then of like, Oh, that's how this season is going to go. All right, buckle in.

But if I were to sit down and rewatch the whole season, that play happens right away. I'm like, there's other content. I got to do something. I'm out of here. Yeah. Give me out of this defensively. You talked about a few guys and I think we'll go there for a second, just because I don't know, like the guys that are putting together this, and I think you've done a little bit too, but showing that it's not just Aaron that left, you know, when far left Aaron took over Farve's team. Yeah.

This is for the most part, like David Bock, he's already still there flirting with Elon or whatever he's doing. And then you know, you got some guys on defense, but it is still pretty young team and they're all going to learn together and grow together. And last year I came into the season thinking that it was going to be a top five defense.

Now it was not, not even close to that. What are we like? What's a good, I don't know what I don't want to come in expecting that they're going to suck again, but Joe Berry, what's a good expectation that people should have on the defense. You should expect that they're going to suck. The only reason I say that is because I'm, I'm done with, cause I wasn't quite like, Hey, they're going to be top five, but I definitely thought like, this has the ability to be a top 10 defense.

And then they weren't close. And like, until they like, it's just the same with the special teams, right? Like until they proved to me that they're not a generationally awful special teams, I'm just going to assume that they are a generationally awful special teams a year after year. And there was certainly a lot of improvement that last year under rich, but Sasha, I expect it to be better this year and year two under rich, but like, I'm certainly not going to predict it because I've seen the special teams for far too long. Same thing with defense. Like, I know it's like, you got to change the defensive coordinator, like the end of the Dom era, the Mike Patton era and the Joe Berry, Joe Berry era. Like there's not a whole ton of difference. Like it's like, we're why it feels like we're watching the same thing.

It's like groundhog day over and over. It doesn't seem to matter. Who's calling the plays. Who's scheming up the scheme.

Who's the positional coaches. It feels kind of the same year after year after year. And until they proved to me that, Hey, look, look at, look, we are a top 10 defense. I don't believe it.

I refuse to believe it. So I think there's things that are maybe trending in the right direction in certain areas. I do expect the, you know, Jair and Douglas and Keyshawn and eventually getting Eric Stokes back. I think that can be a really good group at corner. I really liked the edge rusher group. I think if you know, once, and hopefully we're Sean, Gary's healthy and kind of like at least mostly himself, the Gary Van Ness and a bar, a Preston Smith quadruplets, whatever you want to call them, I think is a really great rotational group.

Kenny. I expect to be better than he was a season ago, Devontae Wyatt. And TJ Slayton should more than step in for Jeron Reed and Dean Lowery from a season ago. Like there's a lot that I think you can be at least somewhat optimistic about. This is a team that allowed five yards per carry a season ago in run defense, five freaking yards per carry.

And I don't, there's nothing that I can point to that I can feel super caught. This is a safety group that still sucks. Like they are there. They should be, they should have had one guy Garvin. They moved a linebacker. They're like getting rid of safeties.

It's true. So like they, they at safety, like they're going to be probably really bad. There's a corner group that Jair is not a great tackler.

Like he'll get his hands dirty every once in a while. He's not a great tackler. Keyshawn will be fine in the slot.

Rizul is fine on the outside. Campbell was a fine last year as a tackler, but nowhere where he was two years ago, quite struggled in that regards. I think edge will be fine, but like, man, like to go five yards per carry a season ago, I struggled to point to something and be like, yep.

Now it's going to be like 3.7, like maybe it's 4.7, maybe it's 4.6. And maybe that's like, wow, we made it a really big step, but if you don't eat your vegetables on early downs and stop the run and it's constantly second and third and short, it is so hard in this league to stop an opposing offense when they are predictable. If you know, they're going to pass, if you know, a hundred percent, they're passing on this play, it is still so hard to stop them. If everything's open to them and they can run, they can pass, they can play action.

They can do anything they want at any time. Like you're, you might as well, you're just gambling at that point. Like, all right, we'll try this. And that's where I think Green Bay was at so much of last year because they're allowing five yards per carry.

It's constantly second and five, third and two, third and one, and you're just in complete no-man's land. So if this team doesn't do a good enough job eating their vegetables on early downs, we're going to see the exact same thing as we did a season ago. And probably Joe Berry doesn't make it through the, you know, the full season.

So I'm hoping that's not the case. I think there's reasons to be optimistic, but until they prove to me that they are actually a good defense, I'm just going to assume they suck again. Wrap it up with you. On my last show, Monday show, I said that the Packers only having two championships in 30 years, you can say only because they, they were basically born on third base for 30 years, and then would always get in a rundown and some games get thrown out, like at the plate in some of these years to use the metaphor. I think why we're all so excited is because, and I don't want to like bring this up again, but I think we're fine. Like we, the headache from the 2014 hangover is gone. I still think this franchise is still hung over from the 2014 NFC championship game. I would put it this way.

I am. It feels like there is a freedom that comes with the lack of expectations for the first time in 30 years. Like for the last 30 other fan bases that they just don't get it. No, I, and I totally agree. And it feels, it feels it feels almost wrong to say, it feels like taboo to say, and it feels like, Oh, you guys are just, you know, stuck up because you've had 30 years of hall of fame, quarterback play. And I get it.

I understand how it might sound. I kind of put it this way of like the past 30 years. I feel like I've read the same book over and over and over. And it's one of the most amazing books that you can possibly imagine a lot of heartache, but some really amazing moments, some really awesome characters, but I've been reading the same book for 30 years. And now I'm going to start a new book that I'm pretty certain is going to be worse, but it's something different. And I'm so excited just for something different because I've been reading the same book for 30 years. And I think that burden of expectation, like just knowing every year of like, it's Super Bowl or bust it's Super Bowl or bust every year for 30 seasons that can like, it almost becomes like, Oh my God, like the stakes are so high, like every single time you go out.

And I will also add in this. It's not like those 30 years were like, you know what, tip your cap to the other team who played this amazing game and, you know, Green Bay played phenomenal, but the other, we were never really getting beat. Were we? No, it was like maybe Atlanta beat us. There were, there were a handful and those were almost like, those were nice, right? When the Falcons just crushed us in it. Oh yeah. It's great to get blown up.

You didn't have any, any right being in, in the first place. That was like, Oh, I can easily handle that. But like the amount of insane daggers to the heart from, we don't even need to talk about them. I don't want to talk about them, but that like punt blocks in the back of the end zone against 49ers, the onsite kick, all of it, like fourth and 26, Freddie. I still think Julius peppers is the biggest criminal of them all. There's a lot in that game, the NFC championship, the far to Corey Webster pick. Like these are like, it's going to take months to get out. And like, maybe like you said, even like maybe a decade to get over the NFC championship game against the Seahawks sort of thing to the point where like, we still aren't totally over it. Like, that's not a lot of fun sometimes to have to experience at the end of every season. So I will not trade my two Superbowl wings for like anything I get it. And you can make a strong argument that outside of the Patriots, the Packers over the past 30 years have still been maybe the most successful franchise, but there has been a lot of pain and expectation and letdowns that have come along with that, that have made this journey very interesting over the past 30 years. So yes, excited for something new, different, and maybe that lack of expectation this year. Yeah. It's like I watched law and order. I think Dick Wolf lost his fastball because the defendant is guilty every time.

Like, yeah, that's what I root for in the episode, but one of these times let one of these assholes go free and some character development here. All right. Andy Herman. I appreciate your time as always. I love what you're doing. The pack a day podcast full time. What a hero you are.

What a legend. I appreciate you. Appreciate you as well. Keep killing it. And we definitely have to do this again soon. Thanks, buddy. That's the show. So I'll talk to you tomorrow.