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com. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome into the Winkler Verse. I am Bart Winkler. You can get us on the YouTube, remember, thanks to Dan Shaney and the Dan Shaney YouTube stream.
We are brought to you each and every week by Carl's Place, and of course, always brought to you by our friends at happyplacehemp, happyplacehemp.com for 25% off. Each and every order. of your THC. Uh delectables. And more.
I bring in. Whisco Grant, it's Grant Bills of the Wisco Sports Show. And our goodest of buddies, Paul Imig.
Okay. I know this is a tough week to get together. We're all still in mourning. Not of the Packers loss. But of the Jeff Hafley departure.
Um a guy who I don't think I've ever seen anybody do as well of a job. And a number on The media or the fan base. He averaged his defense, they averaged more points a game than Joe Barry. I think the first. Look, do you remember?
I don't remember what season this was, but do you remember? The year Where Seattle came here. Russell Wilson was the quarterback. It was week one. The Packers beat them like sixteen to six or something.
And the defense looked great, and I remember it was in the Chuck and Winkler days.
So I went on the air talking about how we have a defense. This is great. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
And then after that, they sucked. I love how you remember the Chuck and Winkler part of that, but the game is not in your head. But as soon as Bart's like, we talked about it on the show. That's how I remember my life. Where was I broadcasting?
I think he's saying it to me. Unrestated to either of you.
Well, still, yeah, you could have very well been a guest on the show at the time, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't thought about that. But even if you weren't, you were listening every day, like, I would have remembered it too. What I specifically recall was when.
After, I couldn't have told you what year or who the opponent was, but what I recalled was Bart being like, Now we finally have a top three defense. The Packers have a top three defense and Joe Berry is the key to it. I don't know that I said that. I might have slightly just exaggerated the way in there. But there was a game and they played them.
I gotta find. I gotta find them. That would have been before Barry. Wouldn't that have been? Here it is: 29.
No, that's the playoffs. What's this? Oh, maybe 2017? Would have been Capers or Patton, right? Patton.
Patton. 2017, the Packers beat him. Seventeen to nine. And We were so giddy about it. And when Jeff Hafley's defense this year...
Now, obviously, there's the Micah Parsons factor, but those first two weeks... It felt like We have a defense. Didn't Rogers say that once? We have a defense? That might have been that game.
No, that was the Bears game. It happened. It happened multiple times. The phenomenon that you're the week one defensive overreaction has happened more than once.
So I've just, I've just been like. All right, maybe they're better, but I don't know. I'm not. And it's not because he sits in the booth. Although he probably should be on the field, I got those comments on my live stream last night.
I want a DC that's on the sideline.
Well, I do too. I don't like those nerds up there. If you watch the Alt 22 after the game, guys. Not during. Um, but I'm not like.
Sad that Jeff Hafley left us. I don't think that. I don't think Jeff Hafley's war. Or war. War?
Yeah. Well, I was thinking of the band Guar. I thought he was like, wins a bar of replacement. Guar. I d I don't like Jeff Hafley.
When we do like...
Well, this year coming in, the Packers gained and the Packers lost. Jeff Hafley's not on my radar. To me, and I am enjoying the reaction from Dolphins fans saying Why the fuck did we hire this guy? I think those are my half-lean thoughts. I'm not saying Mike McDaniel was.
The perfect head coach. But did you just Upgrade? Are you sure you upgraded? Are you sure you even like neutral graded as the Dolphins? I'm pretty sure you just downgraded at head coach.
Now, if you're going to fire Mike McDaniel, who are you going to hire? And then the after and the answer is Jeff Hafley. That one makes sense to me.
Well, it's an overreaction to having, well, yeah, McDaniel's a nerd. He's got the scheme, but we need a leader of men.
So who do you hire? You get the guy who comes in and. wins the interview like I need a crew cut. Yeah, I think Half Lee, his skill, his personality, he might be a better head coach than a defensive coordinator. Honestly, what did he do schematically?
You're talking about the points per game being worse than Joe Berry. Joe Berry had Rudy Ford and. Halfly had Xavier McKinney and then Edwin Cooper, and then he got Micah Parsons. Like, I don't know. They weren't horrible, they weren't miserable, but Miami hired a haircut.
Did you see? I think it was Shay Serrano. Did you see that tweet? Where he's like with Jeff Hafley's picture. He's like, if you started at the chin.
And started going up. Right away, I could tell what his haircut was going to look like. I could just tell. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so I don't give a shit, is basically short story long on that one.
All I'll say is, and I'm. guilty of this too. Uh Never underestimate. the power of a likable Easy to interview. Seemingly relatable person.
The power of that. With an owner? like with obviously with dolphins ownership they just like they got wooed I think media members have been wooed. No. No, I know.
I'm just kidding. That was a step too far. They were wooed last year. When he got an interview or two last year, everyone was like.
Well deserved, much deserved. Like, if we'll, we'll, we'll be lucky if we can keep him. It's like, and again, it's not. Part of that is like I'm glad he's gone, honestly. I don't think you're going to I don't want to, I'm not here to be like he's a he was a bottom half defensive coordinator.
No, but was he fine? But was he such a standout that it's like, now there's a head coach? I'm getting based on X's and O's. I think the answer is no. But in term in the L O M category, the LOM?
The leader of men category?
Well His guys will run through a wall for him. They didn't against Baltimore, but if you exclude and ignore certain games, I mean, they'll memory about it. If you forget about Keyshaw Nixon making business decisions at the goal, I mean, he is a leader of men. He's a press conference merchant. And as a radio producer, I'm devastated because his weekly pressers helped Mike me so much.
They were always like 20 minutes at least. Oh, that's that. That person for me, who was that coach for me who has gone on to have a successful coaching career, but who I would have stumped for, was Joe Witt. When he was the Packers' defensive backs coach, it was when I was covering the team. And I just.
Thought the world of Joe, but it was because he was open and good communicator and shared details, and it helped me. Do a better job with my job, but so just never underestimate the GRI factor, the good reporter interview factor. You've got the Lom, you've got the GRI. degree i don't know i just made that up I want a defensive coordinator who, when they see Rashawn Gary jogging in place in week five, dropkick them, says, maybe don't do that come the playoffs when you're trying to chase Caleb Williams, please.
Well I don't know. Just a small thing. I don't ask for much. Yeah. Never have.
Yeah. All right. Anything else on Jeff Hafley and/or the devastation that this will cause the Packers? Spend too much time on it. I shouldn't have brought it up.
Do you have a favorite Jeff Hafley memory? Yeah, mine's when um I saw this tweet where you're like if you go up and then and then Mine's like when the Dolphins hired a haircut. I think that was a good one. It was a good line. Yeah.
Those are just some from like the last 10 minutes. This has been the most fun part of the Jeff Halfley. That and the amount of air time I was able to absolutely kill with his weekly press. All right. I have a topic I've been looking forward to, a lot looking forward to.
I want to come up with the definitive. Ranking. of how the Packers have been as an organization, a successful franchise. in the MatlaFleur era. I want to conclude this.
Recording with a definitive: since Matt LaFleur was hired by the Green Bay Packers, they were the blank best franchise in the league. which is the past seven seasons. I then. I'll just Tease you there and say my part B. is I want to then say the past five years.
So I want to do the overall. Since Met LaFleur has been hired, the Packers have been the exp, and I'll give you my number. And I'll let you react to it. But then I want to say, okay, that was seven years. Let's look at just the past five.
Now, where do they rank? I want to leave this with a definitive answer to that.
So here's what I want to agree to first, and I want to see if you agree to this. I created a a model, a scale. Based on weighted, what is the most important thing I believe determines success? Air quotes for those listening on the pod. Number one, do we get college credit for this answer?
I mean, what the fuck? This is a three-credit course. I think it's really interesting. But I'm also a nerd. All right, so winning the Super Bowl, right?
Significant weight, not like even weight, like you won the Super Bowl, right? I think so. A million points, right? Getting to but losing the Super Bowl, a lot of points. Yeah, right.
Getting to the conference championship game, but losing. Right? Winning the division. Advancing beyond the wild card weekend.
So that could be through a buy, or that can be through winning. I don't think it's gonna do too well on this grading system based on what you've said. By the way, so this is like we can, we can also then disagree on the system. And then, sixth, I have regular season record. winning percentage in the regular season.
Below, like would you rather have and by the way, you can disagree to this. Would you rather have your franchise advance more to more wild card beyond wild card weekends in seven years? Or would you rather your franchise that you cheer for have a better regular season record in those seven years? To me, it's definitively advancing beyond wild card week. I would rather be an actual threat in the playoffs, not a lot of people.
We should get more shit on them for not winning a Super Bowl. Since before the Cowboys did, a subject of my Ain't still out the 49ers. But I would rather be like, hey, we have a chance to go to the Super Bowl or we don't make the playoffs. Than lose the wild. Losing the wild card.
What are we doing? Yeah. It du 'cause it just doesn't do anything. Right. Again, so I'll tell you my criteria again.
And then, Grant, if you want to change any of this, you certainly could. Winning the Super Bowl one, getting to the Super Bowl, but losing two. Conference championship game appearances is three. Winning your division is four. Advancing beyond wild card weekend is five.
Regular season record is six in order. Waited. Accordingly.
So who has been better than the Packers in that time? And so I'm going to tell you: my answer is that the Packers in the past seven years, past seven seasons, have been Definitively. Mm. No better than the eighth. Best franchise.
We can get into that. And then I want to go to just the past five years because obviously, I think if you, as we go through it, you'll realize. The trend is going in the wrong direction for the Packers. Do the last three. Come on, really.
Come on. Yeah. Sit on the scale, Paul. Do the last, do the Jordan Love era. That's what I want.
Could do that.
So, um, We could.
So here's here's who I'm going to put at so. The Packers are no better than the eighth-best franchise in the NFL since LaFleur has become head coach. And by the way, maybe for some people listening to that, I'm not coming up with like the hypothesis of, and that makes them bad, that makes them good. It's just a pure exercise in what I so, number one. Chiefs, Dobb.
This is the past seven years first. Number two is the Eagles. One Super Bowl win, one additional Super Bowl appearance. In that time, they've also won three division titles and better than the Packers, yeah. The Rams, one Super Bowl win, plus a chance for another here coming up.
three division titles, et cetera. Number four, and this one I got pushback from my friends who I tested this with. Tampa Bay Buccaneers, number four. They won a fucking Super Bowl. Has the rest of the six years been magnificent?
They've had four division titles in that time, but it's not a good division. They've had three advances beyond wild card weekend. But they won a Super Bowl. I don't think they should rank behind a team that hasn't won the Super Bowl. You won the Super Bowl.
I got a Tampa Bay thought I want to throw at you after your list.
Okay. So, by the way, you can just argue with that. I think Tampa is well run. And when they've had a good quarterback, they won a championship. And they get to say they had Tom Brady and they got some Yersa Gronk.
Yeah. They still transition to Baker and they're having fun.
So we've now crossed all of the Super Bowl winners off. We've now crossed all the Super Snacks, yeah. All the Super Bowl winners are now off the list. Number five, San Francisco, two Super Bowl appearances, three division titles, four advances beyond wild card weekend. Yep.
Six through ten. I'll give you the contenders. The Bengals? who have been to a Super Bowl. Have won two division titles and have two advances beyond wildcard weekend.
Again, depends how you want to weight it. They have been to a Super Bowl. The Bills, four division titles, four advances beyond Wildcard Weekend. The Packers, three division titles, four advances beyond wildcard weekend. The Patriots I don't think they are there yet, but if they get to or win the Super Bowl, I don't want them to win the Super Bowl.
They're going to vault out. This sucks. By the way, this. Seven-year timeline begins just after the Patriots' end of the dynasty. Yeah, they gave it back.
Right, all post.
Well, yes, right, because the Tampa Bay Buccaneers win the Super Bowl was with Brady.
So, Patriots, but the Patriots will vault up obviously depending on how this weekend goes. The Ravens, three division titles, four wildcard weekend advances. And then the Seahawks, two division titles, two advances. are not yet, I don't believe there, but if they get to or win the Super Bowl, obviously we'll vault up.
So I think one through five, again, I'll say Chiefs, Eagles, Rams, Buccaneers, 49ers. And then somewhere six through 10: Bengals, Bills, Packers, Patriots, Ravens, Seahawks. What are you asking?
Okay. I want to do an exercise here, but I want to say the Packers are no better than the eighth best franchise. since Matt LaFleur became head coach.
So, which teams, Bart, would you say are you're not putting them in front of the Packers of that group of the six to ten? Bengals, Bills. Patriots, Ravens, Seahawks, recognizing that. Seahawks and Patriots are still alive. I don't care about this.
This Patriots run does. I mean, it's impressive. This is the most DEI run to a conference championship. They're playing Jared Stiddam.
So, this, I don't, I don't care. The Patriots, I would put behind the Packers, the Seahawks, I would put behind the Packers. The Bengals, I think, are the most interesting one. Yeah. Because they made a Super Bowl and they've been to a conference championship game, but like, but the reason they either had a historically bad defense or Joe Burrow got hurt.
Or the bottom drops out. Yeah. Like, they're not.
Well, our down year is getting to the wild card. Their down year is winning six games and missing the playoffs entirely. Which I think the three of us aren't like. Though some Packers fans would disagree, I don't think the three of us think that that's the worst thing. I prefer to be good more often as much as possible.
But would you trade the Packers seven years for the Bengals seven years? Again, they have been to a Super Bowl and a conversation. I don't want to lose a Super Bowl. Packers haven't been to a championship, haven't been to a championship game in the past five years. The Bengals have been to a Super Bowl.
Anyway, against the French. And the Bengals went to an AFC championship game and lost, right?
So they have a conference championship and a Super Bowl, two separate runs into the final or the second final game. Let me ask you guys this: would you rather be seven and ten? Or be 10 and 7 and lose the first weekend. I'd rather be three and fourteen than either of those, so I can. Right.
I'd rather be 10 and 7 and lose in the wild card round. Because I think I've gotten to the point where a lot of the arguing that I'm having. with people is we just want different things. This is why, this is what, this is why I did this. Yeah.
We want different things. I don't. I don't want. To get to the playoffs. To lose.
I want you either want to get to the playoffs and win. Or I just don't I don't want to experience playoff losses anymore. Um And if I do, I don't want them to come at the hands of our rival. early or in devastating fashion. If you're gonna rip my heart out.
Rip it out when people are already booking trips to the Super Bowl. I would almost rather 2014 happen than a year like this. Because at least that year, you did something, you got far, you were close. Yes. There's reason to build upon it.
Yes, you won more games. Yes. Quick aside, if I may, about the Bears. It's charming watching other teams do it. It is.
It's charming watching other teams. Even I don't I don't know that I take joy out of the losing. Like, I did a post after we did it with Carlos. It's not like I got excited. Hey, the Bears lost, I'm excited.
It's seeing the Well, you got to take a step back and realize this was a really special season, and free agents are going to want to come here. It's like, guys. No. No, they're not. No, they won't.
They don't care. And sorry you didn't win. Ben Johnson, Ben Johnson was right after the game, by the way, when he's like, as much as I'd love to say there's momentum from year to year, you kind of start over. Like Ben Johnson actually kind of nailed it in his post-game press.
Well, when Dan Campbell said, I don't know that we're going to get back here. Based. Most people need, you can't, and that I will go back again in reference. When I called in to Billy and Tim on the post-game show in 2018, on the bridge. Everybody, I was not on the bridge.
They were. They were broadcasting from the bridge? I saw them as I was leaving the stadium. Oh, wow. I was in my parents' house at Punta Gorda, Florida at the time.
And I because I was battling with this like 21-year-old girl. And she was just like, I'm so happy. I'm so proud of my team. And I don't want to be proud of my team anymore.
So, what do you want? I would rather. Have experienced the Tampa Bay Buccaneers last 20 years than the Green Bay Packers.
So they both won the same, or 30 years, because they both won the same amount of championships. And there's less. Playoff heartbreak, and then when they are good, because they've had some shit years, and that sucks. But when they are good. It's more enjoyable.
We are getting complacent. With this In a weird way, where this is also like acceptable. It's very, this is, this is bad. This, you don't want this where you're good and you're happy LaFleur's back, and oh, status quo. I don't think you want to be.
In status quo, you either need to be like, this sucks. How do we get better? Or we're the best. I don't like where they're at.
Now, in terms of how other people would look at it, yeah, the Packers have been a top whatever. Team, you know, I think the only thing that you can I just, I think regular season success is. I'm not going to go as far to say it's meaningless like in the NBA, but regular season success. The point of the regular season is to get into the playoffs one. Get a home game if you can, too, and maybe take a weekend off three.
I don't care if you're 14 and three and you lose the first round to the Rams. The Vikings don't give a shit. They didn't even keep their quarterback because of that, because they wanted to be better.
Now it didn't work right now, but that's like. The Bills are firing Sean McDermott because they've been the best regular season team. Is in six years, and what does it matter? I, it's, it's got like, I'm not, I know you can't win a championship every year. You do, you do, no.
You, I just want to make that clear that you, you do, you are aware that's not how it works. I am aware. You just sound like you want to remove the human. Like what you're saying, Bart, everyone agrees with, but everyone has. Yes, everyone is like, I would not like to not lose in the playoffs.
I would like to win more games. Like, you're just saying the thing. You knew the actions of my team. lead to building forward to win a title.
Okay. You're becoming Paul. It's all Paul. You're skewing Paul's way. You're swinging more towards Paul and away from me.
I would rather Build a team. To win a title. Rather than build a team. to be good in the regular season and maybe win a title. Mm-hmm.
I want to shoot for the stars. I don't know. What if you miss, though? You wind up in outer space forever. I want a train to climb the mountain.
Not trained to go three-fourths of the way up the mountain. And if I have enough stamina that day and the weather breaks right, then I will get to the top of that mountain. No, I'm training to climb the fucking mountain.
So you would put all then the Packers are the anti-you're they're the worst team in this bunch for you. Other than maybe the Seahawks. I think it's why Bart was several years ago so staunchly anti-brewers because of the bites at the apple and kind. Consistently making their way through the regular season. That's why I wanted Rodgers out of here because he wasn't going to win for us.
So, what does that mean about Jordan Love exactly after the last three years? I mean, he needs a different coach.
Well, also, Jordan Lev is 10 years younger than Rogers was at the time. Sure, no, no, no. I'm just, I'm just someone's got to play devil's advocate. He's just, he's just spout, and I love Bart. You know this.
He's just spouting off and describing all the things that we would also love to get rid of. Like, no, no, that's not how people act. Can I let me let me respond to that?
So, again, a lot of the pushback that I got, Grant, when I did my rare social media post a couple weeks ago, I love while we're still talking about this. I use it in reference to the responses that I got, which was again, Bart's always fighting. Paul's tweets are like more rare than Haley's comment. It's just Paul's tweet. We're not talking about his tweets.
We're talking about Paul's tweet. It's a singular. Yeah. I got a lot of responses that was like, but they've never finished fourth in the division. Sure.
And I hadn't, it had never crossed my mind that that would be something that a Packers fan or any fan base would celebrate as. A milestone of success. I had. It was like a discovery. Like, really?
Like, holy shit. I would never have thought someone would say that. Thank you. I think it's a point of pride. I don't think it's something you should build an entire program around.
And I actually think that was part of the problem with the Steelers and Tomlin. Like, I think their thing was becoming: I'm Mike Tomlin, I don't have losing seasons. We're going to build the team to make sure we win at least nine games. I don't think that's what the Packers aren't building a team. To say, well, we might never win a Super Bowl, but god damn it, we're never gonna get last.
I think that's been a byproduct of how they've operated.
So it's a point of pride, but it's not something that you should shoot for specifically. One of the things that, sorry, Gary. No, that's it. One of the things I push back on to people on my. Once annual tweet or whatever on your tweet was like I promise you.
The weighting board, if the Packers, if Ed Polassey and Brian Gudekins, and Matt LaFleur were creating their weighted scale. It wouldn't, nowhere in the top six of importance would be don't finish fourth. Yeah. So, for a fan to think that that's valuable or a sign of success. That might be a sign of consistency.
Where does like, we're never the worst in our division.
Well, good for fucking you. Like, what are we doing here? Like, where is, to Bart's point, and a lot of his rants, like, how much has the standard changed? Here's the other thing I wanna say as we get back to our ranking here.
Somewhere I believe in the seven through nine. of the overall in the past seven years. Are the bills? Mm-hmm. Just fired their coach.
The Ravens? Just fired their coach. The Packers. Just extended game of race. Right.
I'll do spoiler, and I'd say I have the power. He's as of this moment. I'm kind of okay with that, actually. Absolutely. They got other things they need to figure out.
I don't think he's the problem with their special teams.
So I'll like the garage floor needs retiling. I don't know. We got to fix the kitchen sink first. I'm a homeowner. Yeah, not.
My spoiler would be I think the Packers are tied for eighth. with the Ravens in the past seven seasons. With the bills slightly ahead of it, and I can tell you why. I just think it's illuminating. That In this Bucket of teams, all of whom I can tell you the statistics of all three of these teams, I can tell you the stats, they are almost all the same.
Packers, Ravens, Bills. Two of them fired their coach. One of them extended their coach. And that's not, that's part of the reason I want to do this, because I want to analyze Matt LaFleur's era. and be fair about it.
Again, I think the directional trend is wrong because they started the Mat LaFleur era with back-to-back NFC championship game appearances.
Okay, as you start to say then. As you start to then say, Well, what has happened in the past five years? I just want to go back to it. The Packers in the past five years, and I can show you the stats to back it up. If you, even if you slightly agree with my weighting scale, They are not a top 12 franchise in the past five years.
I'd say they're eighth or ninth in the LeFleur era overall. And definitively, not top 12, and I have the numbers to show if you're curious, in the past five years since. Two NFC champions, and that's well, if they didn't make it to the championship game twice, it's cherry-picking a little bit. I'm just trying to say, like, overall and then trend line. Yep.
Right. And if you narrow it to three, it's even worse. Like if it's just the Jordan Love era, they have one playoff. Yeah. Which I'm not against you doing, by the way.
It's not like, well, if you only look at the last three years, like you're cherry-picking a month. Like, that's a legit sample. Yeah. And I would say, too, and like one team I didn't even mention in this consideration set are the Lions, who have a championship game loss. recently Um, two divisions, two division titles, two advances beyond wild card weekend.
Um but then like sort of like the Tiebreaker might be that their regular season record, which again, I rank last among my six criteria, they have a worse regular season record by a good margin over the past seven years than the Packers do, than the Ravens do. uh than the bills do for example So Is there any other details I can give you, or do you guys anything you want to say about where you kind of feel? One thing I would like to say. Generally. Yes.
A wise man once said Scared money. Don't make money. This comes up a lot. Met Lafleur. Yet the Packers are operating under scared money.
What is bothering me about the Packers and their recent... Lafleurness. Is they had an opportunity. Two And this is what I've been talking about. Why do the Packers retain Matt LaFleur?
Because they like what he provides them. He provides them a team that can get into the playoffs, and they're fine with that.
So, you're one of those guys. You think the Packers were just getting in, life is good? Because a lot of people have believed that for a long time. You have now. You've defected into that group.
I think that that is. I think what I'm saying is, they are acting like the Brewers. I I have a Secondary topic. But they are act Mark Murphy saw the crowd. When Mike McCarthy was losing to the Cardinals.
And that's why they fired him.
Okay. Because of apathy. And the Packers, who've got this big coffer of money, Who've got The NFL revenue sharing program at their disposal. Are acting like one bad apathetic season. Will sink them.
So either there's something we don't know. Or they're just playing scared. They are operating. Mm. as if they can't afford.
To miss. The postseason. And I don't understand why, Paul.
So I don't want to abandon this first topic. But I want to give you my part B because you led me right into it. It turns out that Mark Atanasio was right in terms of what the majority of fans want. It's the job of the Brewers and the Packers to create a season of fun and passion. Or that Mark Atanasio was right in terms of what the majority of fans want.
Yeah. Right? He was right. Party of fans want. He was right.
Mark Atanasio, brewer's owner, was right. Yeah. Grant is great. You guys are just presenting the LeFleur choice as if it's we can continue to win nine games and get into the playoffs and lose. or we'll suck balls.
No, that's how the Packers viewed it. That's how fans are viewing it. Because, oh, the grass isn't greener. Everyone's saying, who would you hire? The grass isn't greener.
Oh, you might suck. No one is saying.
Well, yeah, then we might win a Super Bowl. No one's thinking of what could be better. The grass is not always greener, sometimes the grass is greener.
Sometimes the grass is More green. It's the most green you've ever seen. The grass is not always greener.
Sometimes the grass is greener.
Sometimes you don't know if it's going to be until you do it, but sometimes it is.
So The devil you know, yeah, the devil you know, okay, well, sometimes it's not a devil, though.
Sometimes it's like the greatest thing ever.
Sometimes it's a person who loves and respects you more than you could ever wanted.
Sometimes it's a job who c treats you so well and everybody there is great.
Sometimes it's a house who is not a money pit.
Sometimes it's sometimes it's better. You have to take a risk. That's why you have free will. You don't have to just live in this. This isn't a fucking giver where you're just assigned your slot in life.
Oh, it looks like I'm a nine and seven in one team for the rest of my days. No! You have choices. Packers. Not making those choices.
Grant, you have more? That's good. No, it's a good rant. I think we all, this is maybe why I like this show: I think we mostly agree on like 98% of stuff. But Bart, I don't understand what corners of the internet you're hanging out in all day because you're always like, I don't, I don't understand.
People that are willingly talking and engaging with me, sure. And you're like, I don't know why everyone's so happy LaFleur's back. Everyone's supporting. The only people I hear and see from think LaFleur is a total puss. And why they wanted him gone two years ago.
Like, I don't understand the crowd that you're hearing. But we have seen. I'm going to reference the uh Very highly peer-reviewed study that recently came out. from at Bill Huber NFL. That showed the majority of Packers fans, at least the thousands who commented on his poll.
Oh, the poll.
Okay. I was trying to play it up as if it was more, but like, and then we've, you know, we've shared. the types of comments that Other in others in Packers World get. And it seems like, you know, Bart, you, for example, get. those who are like, you're an idiot, LeFleur is great.
And then, for example. Andy Herman gets people who are like. How can you support him? LaFleur is terrible. Like you do use your mind.
You guys wanna switch mentions. It's almost like the algorithm wants to find people that will argue with you. That's not, that couldn't possibly be the case. Um But like that is That it does exist, so grant.
So, I mean, to kind of get to your thing, I do think the majority. I don't think Bill Huber's poll is. As unscientific, whatever as a Twitter poll can be. I think it's fake news. The results of that poll are, in my opinion, I don't think that's reflective of past news.
Okay, so then I hear from Packers. Hot farms activated for Matt LaFleur. Feels that way. Bill Hubert, you can listen to Bill Huber's Twitter poll, or you can listen to me who samples folks from the lakefront to the riverfront. Not on my own show, but there's an unbelievable amount of comments coming out on that thing every day.
And every single one of them hates from Shano to Shyocton to fucking where I hate those radio. From Chilton to You know what I'm talking about. I actually like those.
So, Grant, and I think I know your answer, so I'll re-ask the question. From Pomro to Oconomawak. It turns out that Mark Atanasio was right in terms of what the majority of fans want. It's the job of the Brewers and the Packers to create a season of fun and passion. That was the that was correct.
In terms of what the majority of fans want. I don't like Brian Lander to Reidsburg. I don't like crossing sports. I don't think these two things are applicable. I did not either.
Until the past handful of months, I never thought of them as parallel. I think they have now become extremely parallel. Bites of the apple has become parallel. I think the approach of the fan base in terms of like, but we're not last, we're not the pirates.
Well, we're not, you know, like, whatever, like, it, it's. We always have to do it. May I? Of course. Because the team that is acting As I would suggest a team to act.
Is the worst fucking team of them all? And that's the box. They are trying to win. They're just making every dumb bad move possible. Doesn't firing McDermott feel like it has.
Budenholzer potential. That was my thought. Like, yeah, it maybe needed to happen. But watch, they're going to hire some shithead and they're going to suck, and it's just going to be Josh Allen flailing away and. Like they were, they were pretty consistent in the playoffs beating.
The teams that weren't Mahomes, they lost to Burrow once, but what's the again, similar to what I would argue with. The past five years of the LaFleur era versus the total seven, what's the trend line for the bills? Up or down? Down. Sure.
I'm not. I'm not. I'm not denying that. That specifically to me just feels like it has bootenholes or potential. Where I wouldn't be shocked if this starts a spiral.
I don't think the team around him is very good, and I think the GM stinks. In Baltimore, was the trend line up or down on the Ravens? Down, down. But they got a pothead lately. Lastly, is the trend line for the Packers up or down?
Done. Yeah. I also think, by the way, if we're just comparing these three teams, Lamar and Harbas started their run at this thing in 2018. And Josh Allen, what year was he drafted? 2017?
2017? No. 17. That's okay.
Sorry, that's if this extension, if they take two or three more runs at this, which is the length of his contract now and fail, he will be fired and he will be on the same timeline with Jordan Love with his quarterback that those other two were.
So I understand what you're saying. Again, just a little. Little devil's advocate. That's all. I like it.
So, I mean, I actually think leaving this conversation to say, You know, the Packers are the eighth-best team in the NFL since LaFleur has taken over. They're the 13th best team in the past five years of those total seven.
Okay. isn't like Terrible. Like that's no matter how you slice it, they're either like.
Okay. Very good to above average. They're not average. Like they they're not and no and no context of the LeFleur era, have they been average or less than average? They've been very good.
Eighth overall in the past seven years? May I it's it But I think the distinction is that the two teams who are battling for the seventh through ninth best franchises over this era, over this time span. went one direction and the Packers went another. And again, I just think this is worth noting. And Bart, you might have said this in previous times that you've.
been anti-laffleur. The Packers can obviously still win the Super Bowl, even though we disagree at this decision. The Bills might get worse from this. The Ravens might get worse from this. It's not like, but this is a process conversation.
This is a like, do you believe directionally? In what is informing the big decisions of who the next coach should be and how you proceed moving forward? And has it been good enough to give these people? More money. Whether it's the GM or the coach.
Um And the Ravens and Bills went one direction. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. The Packers went a different direction. Maybe it will work.
Maybe it won't. Uh I mean, Bart, I know you've joked. Mm-mm maybe. that i'm not going to not cheer for the packers just because i want to be right about this But He did in 22. I'm old enough to remember when he actively cheered against the Packers in 2022 as they were trying to make their run to get into the playoffs.
Yeah. I cheered against them against the Dolphins. I remember they won. Then I went to the game against the Lions, and then they lost. Jamal Williams.
Yeah. Um think sports are different than real life? I think if you arbitrarily say you're the eighth best, whatever. That's really, really good. Sports is defined by who holds up the trophy at the end of the year.
There's one winner. And then Hmm. based on how the fans come into it is What's acceptable for you? Is fun acceptable? Is good times?
Is. See, I I ultimately, I don't think. That I I don't think there's a lot of me. Not I i in in what I want with the Packers, I don't think there's a lot of me. I think there's one of you.
Yeah. I don't think there's a lot of people like me that. We need to win. I think a lot of people are like. You know that Why I think Mark Carthanasio was actually 1,000% correct in his analysis.
Yeah, the amount of people that I like see that don't watch every NFL game like I do, that don't shut down their Sundays and just go red zone, that like That asked me on a Thursday. What time again do the Packers play this week? Are you fucking out of your mind? What time do the Packers play this week where the Packer game is a social outing? Oh, oh, Saturday night I can go to the bar.
Fuck the bar. I need to watch this goddamn football game. There's not a lot of people like me. Less than I thought. I know you are, Paul.
So there's not a lot of people like us. And if I keep talking to those people. Like, my brothers are like that. We're like, come on, fuck, let's go. And so I'll talk to my brothers, get all fired up, and then I'll talk to the audience, and they're like, well, that's the big deal.
Son will come up tomorrow. Mm-hmm. By the way, what I was going to chime in with was There are radio hosts who only watch. I think I was going to try to quip that too, but he was on a roll and I didn't want to fuck up his rant. But I thought the same thing.
There are a lot of people who only watch the Packers every week and some of them host radio shows. Can you believe it? On statewide networks. Again, statewide networks. All right.
So, um, I guess say the Packers are eighth, ninth, right? Give or to go. I agree with your framing. I have no pushback on their rankings. They don't really have any significant playoff wins.
The Cowboys win was big. It was three years ago. It was a wild card win. And that game's doing a lot of heavy lifting. And also, Bodhi tweeted about this, and someone texted my show about this as well.
What happens if Darnell Savage doesn't blow that game open with the pick six? And instead, at halftime, it's. what was it, 21 to 7 instead of 28 to 7? Like, what might have happened? I don't know.
Just an interesting, if you really wanted to. Try to scrape away the one meaningful playoff when Matt LaFleur has this decade. Like, that would be a. That would be a good place. And by the way, there's a lot of things that, and I gotta, we gotta kind of wrap up here, but this is.
There were several things that informed me wanting to make this list, one of which is just being a nerd. The others of which is like people were seemingly that I saw. Those who cover Packers and otherwise, who are seemingly trying to find like a definition. To give how good the Mat LaFleur Packers have been. Like If you know, because like, you know, you see things along the lines of like, well, if this is mediocre, then I would love to know what you would consider a whatever team.
Exactly. If a reporter is going to say they've been anything but mediocre, then you kind of got to say what they've been. Like, you're getting at. Yeah, right. So then, so then what are they?
How many are better? And then you have to just ask yourself, as Bart has said in different ways, like, so what is good enough? Where's your line? The Ravens and Bills have said. Seventh, eighth, ninth best franchise in the NFL over the course of a seven-year span is not good enough.
The Packers have said. Keep it going. Love this. Have you enjoyed being a Packer fan the last seven years? Yeah.
That's a I have not That's a different question for me. I've never matter of taste. Yeah. And this the Matla Fleur tastes like shit. But again, I like, I love, as this is where Bart and I are very similar for sure.
I love the NFL. Like, the Packers are a fun component of a thing I love. The playoffs are so much better when they're not in it. I had a great divisional round weekend. I enjoy the Packers, but I was like a pig in slop Saturday and Sunday.
It was incredible. Yeah. And then, so, well, eighth or ninth, give or take. And then I think Artenalzio, I think Grant might have some pushback. But I think that this is, this has illuminated for me something I would not have thought a month ago or two months ago.
That There are a lot of people who this goal is to watch a winning team on Sundays from September through early January. That is the value. Watching your team win. The win in September feels just as good as the win in mid-January. I didn't know that.
Like, this was this is like I like learning things about people and like doing like somewhere like the it the I don't the more I learn the more I hate people. You're actually right. It's more frustrating to learn that that's actually the way it is. But it is except for our smart and good-looking listeners on the Winklerverse. Last question, then I got to go.
Mike McCarthy, Aaron Rodgers together in Pittsburgh. Fuck yeah. Yes, yes. I don't always need Mike McCarthy in the NFL, but I need him in the NFL right now, and I need him coaching for Pittsburgh. Hell, yes.
That would be so great. I want Rogers back for another year. I wouldn't have told you. That was as the owner of the Steelers has said. Like, that was the, that was a huge thing.
They wanted Rodgers wanted to play with Tomlin. Mike McCarthy is Pittsburgh. Like Tried and true. Like, that is Mike McCarthy, is Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is McCarthy.
McCarthy is Pittsburgh. Aaron Rodgers is already there. Uh man, what an awesome like storyline. For that.
Okay. Thank you, all. And all of you for stopping into. Should I do a Bucks post on Thunder Bucks or should I just go to bed at nine? Just do a live stream after it's over until 11 o'clock.
Yeah, I'll do a stream. All right. Thanks for stopping into the Winklerverse. Thanks, guys.
Okay.
