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Customers that had business expenses, no taxes. Good morning. I'm Jane Pauley and this is Sunday morning. We're beginning today with a look back at the most famous shipwreck of the 20th century, the sinking of the Titanic. The doomed ship has been sharing its secrets for years now, thanks in large part to a deep sea explorer funded by the United States Navy.

Chip Reid will report our cover story. It sits on the bottom of the ocean, but it's never left our imaginations. The Titanic, its beauty, its tragedy, and its mystery. This was a really top secret mission.

It was very top, above top secret, I'm sure. A tribute to the unthinkable, a ship that never made it past its maiden voyage ahead on Sunday morning. Ralph Lauren is a name to be reckoned with in the world of fashion. A man who takes the long view, as I learned on a recent visit.

Designer Ralph Lauren has a distinct sense of style. I love things that get better with age and it's not about what's in and what's out. It's about forever. Someday you'll, you ought to pave this road. Now I like it this way.

No. Ahead on Sunday morning, 50 years of fashion with Ralph Lauren. This past Friday saw the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Among that attack's many consequences was the forced internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry. And one of the consequences of that, as Lee Cowan will tell us, is a remarkable friendship that has spanned the decades. Norman Etta was a young boy scout in 1942 when he suddenly found himself labeled a threat. Because we look like those who attacked Pearl Harbor, all of a sudden we're picked up. Two states away was another boy scout, Alan Simpson.

They were American citizens, they were American boys. The lifelong friendship forged on opposite sides of barbed wire. Liam, on Sunday morning.

Rita Braver takes the measure of the rising tide of anti-semitism in America. Maurice DuBois catches up with rapper Cardi B. And more, all coming up when our Sunday morning podcast continues. More than a century after its tragic end, the Titanic is still sharing its secrets with, among others, our own Chip Reid. In the movie Titanic, the characters played by Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet spent a year working on the movie Titanic. In the movie Titanic, the characters played by Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet spent some intimate moments in her elegant suite.

This looks familiar. Yes, well this is the first class suite from the Titanic from the 1997 movie. Blockbuster movie.

Blockbuster movie. That movie set now resides at the National Geographic Museum in Washington DC. These are the actual props from the movie. The actual props from the movie. And there are plenty of real artifacts here too. Kathryn Keene, National Geographic's vice president for public experiences says the focus of the exhibit is the meaning and the mystery of the ill-fated ship.

Well, no mystery here. That's a deck chair. That's a deck chair. Fascinating artifact.

One of only seven that still exists. The crew of the Titanic were just throwing these things overboard hoping that the passengers in the water might have something to hold on to. The exhibit tells the stories of Titanic's heroes like Wallace Hartley and his eight-person band who played until the very end. His body was recovered with this beautiful music pouch and it was full of some of the music that you see. Is this the actual music he was carrying?

The actual music that he was carrying when he was recovered from the from the site. Of the 2,200 people on the Titanic, more than 1,500 died including 47-year-old John Jacob Astor, the wealthiest person on board. This was the watch he wore with him everywhere. His 18-year-old wife who wore this life preserver survived. Why did he not survive? Well, it's it's a sad story but he was on the wrong side of the ship. On the side of the ship that he was on they were only allowing women and children. So he was denied a seat on a lifeboat even though there was a seat because he was a man. That's correct.

For the time being I shall require only women and children. It was a horrifying two hours and 40 minutes before the Titanic disappeared beneath the waves. It then plunged more than two miles to the bottom of the Atlantic where it rested unseen by human eyes for 73 years. But the sinking of the Titanic is no less mind-boggling than the discovery of its wreckage. In 1985 oceanographer and naval reserve commanding officer Robert Ballard stunned the world when he found the Titanic. But how he did it remained a highly classified U.S. government cold war secret for decades.

We met Ballard at National Geographic to hear the Titanic's untold story. You did a number of very top secret naval missions during the cold war. I was a naval officer, yes.

Can you talk about them? No. Not at all? No.

Only this one? Only one big declassified. The story of finding the Titanic starts in 1982 when Ballard was developing his own remotely operated underwater vehicle. Unable to get science grants he asked deputy chief of naval operations Ronald Thunman if the Navy would help fund his project. He said all my life I wanted to go find the Titanic and I was taken aback by that. I said come on this is a serious top secret operation.

Find the Titanic that's crazy. Thunman said yes but only if Ballard used the funds and the time to find two missing U.S. nuclear submarines the Thresher and the Scorpion that sank in the Atlantic in the 1960s. So it was a deal.

You'll let me do what I want to do and if I'll do what you want to do. This sounds like the real hunt for Red October. Very similar. The focus of this mission was to find the Scorpion. They didn't want anyone else to find it. Like the Russians?

Yes. This was a really top secret mission. It was very top secret.

Above top secret I'm sure. And so we were able to find the Scorpion and I said well let's tell the world I'm going after the Titanic. The top secret part of the mission took longer than Ballard expected so when he found the Scorpion and was finally free to look for the Titanic he only had 12 days left but his experience finding the Scorpion had been invaluable. I learned something from mapping the the Scorpion that taught me how to find the Titanic. Look for its trail of debris. So you found it in eight days basically.

Yeah. Because and everyone people had taken 60 days and not found it. I did it in eight. And how much time did you have left? Four. You had four days left. To film it. And you couldn't go beyond that four days? No. Someone else had rented the ship.

That was it. They didn't care. Ballard still vividly remembers that moment when he first set eyes on the Titanic. But he also remembers how the mood suddenly changed. We realized we were dancing on someone's grave and we were embarrassed and the mood it was like someone took a wall switch went and we became sober calm respectful and made a promise to never take anything from that ship and to treat it with great respect. Because that was like grave robbing.

It was like going you don't go to Gettysburg with a shovel and you don't take belt buckles off the Arizona. Catherine Keene says it's that sense of respect for the Titanic and its victims that gives it its timeless quality. Why do you think after all these years people are still so fascinated with the Titanic? I think there are lessons from the Titanic that we are somehow still compelled to want to hear.

We're always pushing the boundaries of technology and exploration but the story of the Titanic reminds us that there are great risks and tragedies that accrue to those ambitions and there are also great stories of heroism and survival in this story that give us hope that maybe somehow we'll learn as a species from our mistakes. And now a page from our Sunday morning almanac. December 9th 1952, 66 years ago today. The day a killer smog finally lifted over London. A thick cold fog had settled over the city four days earlier trapping dirty smoke from the coal fires most residents relied on for warmth. The dangerous smog turned day into night grinding ground transportation almost to a halt and sending thousands to the hospital. 4,000 people died in three weeks and as many as 12,000 are estimated to have died from its lingering effects.

Though London's air is by and large cleaner and safer now smoggy days occasionally still return. A flashback perhaps for older Londoners for whom the memories of the 1952 blackout are anything but dim. It was quite a scene at designer Ralph Lauren's glittering 50th anniversary soiree not long ago.

Celebrities and fashion industry big wigs turned out in force and again it's a big anniversary for a very big name in fashion. I saw this as a land that I love. There's a sense of freedom. At the wheel of a rusty pickup truck that's seen a lot of unpaved roads Ralph Lauren surveys his 20,000 acre Colorado spread. You see the brown wood and the sort of fade and the tin roofs and it's all part of the history. In a rustic cabin nestled in an open field in the majestic mountain vistas he found his muse his inspiration. It's about showing people in America or wherever I was that this is beautiful.

And for 50 years that passion for timeless style elegance romance has informed a distinct fashion sensibility. You can adjust it make some adjustments. Let's see it I don't have to adjust. Yes you do no you're being a gentleman honestly fix it.

Fix it all right no no I don't do that. He's outfitted the U.S. Olympic team since 2008 and dressed Nancy Reagan, Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama and Melania Trump. But growing up but growing up in the Bronx Ralph Lauren did not foresee a future in fashion. My mother and father wanted me a doctor or a lawyer or something that was safe a teacher so I think I'm very lucky. I could have been the doorman and I could have been anybody and I think about that all the time. You weren't preparing yourself for greatness. Oh I prepared myself for greatness in my mind. I did what a lot of kids did go to the movies on Saturday afternoons and come out thinking I'm dueling with my brother or my friends and think I'm Tarzan. So there was a lot of dreaming in the Bronx.

You didn't know what you were gonna be. But what Ralph Lauren had even as a kid was an eye for style. What I love about this picture is well pretty much everything. I love it's an outfit. It is confidence and it also looks like a Ralph Lauren picture from your future.

I thought I was cool. The sweater was my brother's and I think a jacket was my other brother's. I'm wearing my own Levi's at the time. When you were styling and you were you were styling with your brother's hand-me-downs and for someone who was going to be in your business that thing that sparked you saw it young. That's that's true but I didn't know I never knew this was fashion. And yet as a salesman in Manhattan's garment district in his early 20s he had an epiphany about a menswear staple the tie.

It hadn't changed much in generations. Neckties were a very important product for men. They expressed their sensibility. They can't buy new suits but they can change their ties. His tie was wider, bolder, pricier and he called his brand Polo for a reason. Polo represented a lifestyle and the people that played polo were international and very elegant. The success of polo ties begat menswear. I was exposing what I loved, what I liked by designing clothes that fit the man who didn't want to look too fashiony, who didn't want to look like he was a dandy. Ralph Lauren and Polo came to represent a world of luxury. Polo by Ralph Lauren. Whether rustic or refined, winning a lot of fans and not a few critics. I do what I do. They're critics that love your clothes and critics that don't love your clothes.

The ones that didn't love it so much what were they saying? They didn't get it but evidently there must have been something I had to say because 50 years in the fashion business that is a trendy moving business is really hard to do that. And it's been a big year for Lauren. This fall his golden anniversary runway show was the glamorous high point of New York's Fashion Week. He was recently named an honorary knight by Queen Elizabeth.

He threw out the first pitch at Yankee Stadium in September. And with a company now worth more than 10 billion dollars Ralph Lauren is a bona fide global icon. But Ralph Lauren was not the name he was born with.

Until the age of 19 he was known as Ralph Lifshitz. In the world I was growing up the word sh** was a tough word. It was in my name. So that name change was not about being Jewish or not Jewish or being something else. But for this designer the name on the label isn't what matters most. When a woman walks in a room and she's wearing Ralph Lauren it is not your aspiration for the room to say well I think she's wearing Ralph Lauren. I'm not about what I think is sometimes a fashion victim who has to wear a label to prove that she's got taste.

If you enjoy something I like that because you're expressing who you are. And if you presumed Ralph Lauren would be wearing Ralph Lauren for our interview. The shirt?

We'd have both been wrong. Well this shirt I bought at Kmart. This is living proof of what I believe in. I love the aging of it. I love the rips. I love it at all. You didn't design it? I didn't design it.

I assumed it was. No I happen to like this because it's the one that I have memories of. And how come you chose it for this conversation today? I want to look great.

And at 79 he looks pretty great. But for Ralph Lauren fashion is not about how clothes make you look. It's about how they make you feel. I feel cooler now than ever. Why?

How? Because I've enjoyed my my career and I'm still working really hard and well. 50 years and counting.

So let's hope it goes on. He never lost his sense of humor. Humor is the universal solvent against the abrasive elements of life. He never hated anyone. He knew what his mother and my mother always knew.

Hatred corrodes the container it's carried in. It's Sunday morning on CBS and here again is Jane Pauley. And that's former Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming speaking at the memorial service for his friend President George HW Bush this past week.

Another of Simpson's long-standing friendships is literally a matter of heart as Lee Cowan can tell us. As the story goes Hard Mountain in Wyoming got its name from the Crow Indians who thought it looked like the heart of a buffalo. Rising more than 8,000 feet it's often shrouded in clouds. But far below the dark clouds of history still linger. For it is here where the ghosts from one of America's most shameful chapters still roam.

Whole time was one of tension, chaos, not knowing what was going to happen next. It was shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor that an executive order from President Roosevelt ordered anyone of Japanese descent living along the west coast be relocated. As many as 120,000 people most of them US citizens were rounded up loaded onto trains and sent to places like this. Penned in behind barbed wire their loyalty and their patriotism questioned. I remember in grammar school in San Jose you know we would all want to fight to be the one to carry the flag when we did the Pledge of Allegiance. So now here we are behind barbed wire thought of as not citizens.

Like so many others Norm Mineta born and raised in San Jose California to Japanese parents was uprooted from his home having no idea where his family was headed or for how long. Now on that day that we left I was wearing my Cub Scout uniform, baseball, baseball glove, baseball bat and as I got on the train the MPs confiscated my bat. They took your bat. And I went running to my father crying about the MPs. Heart Mountain was one of ten camps the government had hastily constructed. The Minetas arrived on a windy day in September 1942 moving their few belongings into their tar paper barrack. There was only one light in that 20 by 25 foot room held my mother, my dad, two sisters, my brother and me. And out of all the people that were brought here what percentage of them were citizens? Two-thirds, close to 70%.

At its peak it held some 14,000 internees that technically made it Wyoming's third largest city at the time even bigger than the nearby town of Cody. The signs would go up, no japs allowed you sons of bitches killed my son at Iwo Jima. A young Alan Simpson lived just down the road. Were you worried about that as a kid? Well you would because there was barbed wire all around the damn thing and guard towers with guys with guns and search lights all aimed inside. So wouldn't you as a 12 year old kid think there was something in there?

I think you would. When the school bell rings get the signal for these students at Park Mountain in Wyoming to change classes. The camp did operate like a small city. There were schools and farms and churches, even elections.

But there was also boredom. To keep internees occupied the agency in charge, the War Relocation Authority, allowed activities like ice skating, baseball and much to Mineta's surprise, scouting. But his was a lonely troop. Our scout leaders would write to the scouts in all the towns surrounding. Come on in for the jamboree and they'd write back and say no no those are prisoners of war and that we're not going in there. So they'd write back and say no no no these are Boy Scouts of America. They wear the same uniform you do.

They read the same manual you do. But none of them came in. Except that is, for one, Alan Simpson's Boy Scout troop. His forward-thinking scoutmaster, Glenn Livingston, fought a visit to the camp, embodied what the scouts stood for.

And soon Simpson found himself tying knots across from a Japanese American boy who would become his lifelong friend. He always called me pesky, pesky little rascal. He was a spirited lad. Which meant what? He was as ornery as I was.

We couldn't figure ways to screw up anything we could get our hands on. They shared a tent and that's where their troublemaking started, playing a prank on a fellow scout from Simpson's troop. There was kind of a bully and it was raining to beat hell and we kind of channeled the water down into this guy's tent. On purpose?

Oh yes. We built a beautiful moat and the tent came down. Norm said that I cackled as that happened. Did he cackle?

Well I'll tell you it was a lot of hee-hee-hee's and a lot of ha-ha-ha's. As their time together unfolded, Mindana remembers seeing a change coming over his new friend. He realized these are American citizens and now they're behind barbed wire. They were American citizens, they were American boys. Even as a 12 year old he thought that was just totally unjust. Neither forgot their shared experience that day.

They carried it with them through the decades that followed, through marriages and family but all of it apart from one another. Did you guys keep in touch a little bit? We didn't ever see each other again until I read you Norman Y Manera solemnly swear that he was the mayor of San Jose. Congratulations. So I wrote him a note.

He wrote back saying oh yeah maybe someday we'll see each other or something you know. Simpson noticed because he too had gotten into politics. And it's odd to me that people expect perfection in their laws when they don't have perfection in their lives. He grew up to become Wyoming's outspoken senator. The same smoke and mirrors has been pulled off by the Democrats and the Republicans. A seat he held for 18 years as a lifelong Republican.

And it seems to me we ought to be going the other direction. Norman Manetta who became a Democrat went from that mayor's seat to congressman and then all the way to cabinet secretary. And I am proud to be chosen by you to be the first Asian Pacific American to serve in any president's cabinet. Under not one but two US presidents. So that is where the two former Boy Scouts reunited under the Capitol dome some 35 years after they first met. And there we were and we just when it started right over just like that.

And our friendship went back as if we're still sitting in that pup tent. Today I hope that we will reaffirm the precious rights and the freedoms that are guaranteed by our great Constitution. In 1988 Simpson and Manetta joined forces to help pass the Civil Liberties Act signed by President Ronald Reagan which for the very first time formally apologized to Japanese Americans and granted reparations to those who had been imprisoned. Are you surprised that he's not bitter about what happened to him?

That's the real one. He's a Mandela type person. He never bitterness never came over him. He didn't always agree on everything but party like that barbed wire rarely came between them. And even when it did they say it wasn't as pointed or as personal as the debates that dominate politics today.

The word politics is interesting because comes from the Greek you know that poly meaning many and ticks meaning blood-sucking insects. We'd have fights in subcommittee full committee and yet we'd slap each other on the back say come on let's go have dinner let's go have a drink and they don't do that they just don't have that kind of personal relationship. Both Manetta and Simpson are happily retired now and every year returned to Heart Mountain to help remind generations that came after theirs just how fragile freedom can be.

Every year the crowd gets bigger which says something about the growing interest in keeping what happened here from ever happening again. But in the midst of this somber memorial this unlikely duo brings a much-needed laughter too. We don't talk with scouts and tying knots we have organ recitals how's your how's your heart liver these are called organ recitals. I really admire him respect him and love him just a wonderful wonderful individual.

We see each other and we just begin to laugh there's no way to describe it it's a love affair I guess that's what you say we just have fun together. Yes there is a dark history here but the human spirit is brighter a friendship that reaches back decades has managed to shine the light of hope for generations. The deadly synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh not long ago reminds us that anti-semitism what's been called the longest hatred still festers in America.

Here's Rita Braver. Lighting the menorah outside the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh took on special significance this year. Just weeks ago a gunman spewing anti-semitic comments killed 11 people and injured six others here. Leaders of the three congregations that all worshipped in the synagogue say they're touched by the makeshift memorial that has sprung up but the building is still closed and Rabbi Jeffrey Myers is not sure when it will reopen.

It's not just when to come back it's how to come back. Precisely and I'm mindful that there may be people who can't come back and that hurts that not only our lives taken away but faith has been taken away. For now services are being held at a neighboring synagogue and Rabbi Myers who witnessed the attack and was able to get several congregants to safety is taking it one step at a time. I don't think there's anything that can mentally prepare a human being to to go through what I've gone through.

Please be seated. And for many Jews around the country what happened in Pittsburgh was a bitter reminder that anti-semitism is on the upswing. Both the Anti-Defamation League and the FBI which calculate statistics differently have documented an increase in incidents targeting Jews. Look anti-semitism has been rightfully called the longest hatred. I would root it and find its roots in the New Testament in the story of the death of Jesus. That story which has been much debated and disputed has been interpreted to say that Jews were complicit in the crucifixion but Deborah Lipstadt professor of Holocaust studies at Emory University says whatever happened then should not be an issue now. Why should we still be dealing with that 2100 years later?

No one would say that a young German growing up in Germany is responsible for what happened 70 years ago 80 years ago. So this persistence of this hatred this persistence of this guilt and resentment is is weird it's just crazy. Along with this there has been a stereotyping of Jews. The stereotypes are money a fixation with money power they have smarts in a malicious kind of way conniving. We spoke with her in Sheriff Israel Synagogue in New York the oldest congregation in the country founded by Jews of Spanish and Portuguese descent.

They took a chance and they came here. But from colonial times on Jews face discrimination barred from some jobs housing schools and clubs. Still many Jews have succeeded in this country in every sector and felt safe.

Take Jonathan Weissman deputy editor of the New York Times Washington bureau. Like most American Jews myself included he never really worried about anti-semitism. You describe yourself at one point as lulled into complacency. Absolutely I would have never thought that anti-semitism would be a dominant issue in my life or a really prevalent issue in American society. But that was before the day in 2016 that he tweeted out a short excerpt from a piece by writer Robert Kagan that was critical of Donald Trump's campaign. And I got this reply back from somebody calling himself at cyber Trump and at cyber Trump just said hello Weissman but Weissman was in these parentheses. I kind of intuited Weissman's a Jewish sounding name I wonder if this is anti-semitic. His hunch was correct as Weissman notes in his recent book those parentheses triggered an online mob and soon he was bombarded with thousands of nasty messages.

There I am. Oh my gosh. Yeah so that's fairly anti-semitic I would say.

Yeah I'd say. And though many came from people claiming to be Donald Trump supporters. There is as you know still a lot of debate about whether the president has in any way deliberately encouraged anti-semitism.

Where do you come out on that? I know he has Jewish grandchildren so do I believe that he is an overt anti-semite? It's hard to believe that. What I do know is he has had an exceptionally hard time pushing away this anti-semite and the racists and the white nationalists who have clamored around his movement. But others argue Trump shouldn't be blamed for any of it.

I think that it's also not just partisanship but also laziness that it's easy to peg it on Donald Trump. Jewish American journalist Bethany Mandel was also targeted after criticizing candidate Trump and became so fearful she actually bought a gun. She showed us the bullets.

So you've got them there in case you need them. Yeah. But she disputes the idea that President Trump is winking at anti-semitic followers. He likes when people support him and he doesn't really care who they are but I don't think that he supports them and I don't think that he is sending them any kind of signals.

In fact the alleged Pittsburgh gunman was not a Trump supporter and the president did condemn the shootings. This evil anti-semitic attack is an assault on all of us. This goes beyond Jews. It starts with Jews but it doesn't end with Jews. These are people who hate difference.

It's bigger than one group. And everyone we interviewed agrees that the best way to combat anti-semitism is to speak out against all forms of bigotry. But for many Jews like Rabbi Jeffrey Myers life will never feel the same. What is the new reality as far as you're concerned?

Well I have 11 beautiful people who are no longer alive and that's going to be with me for the rest of my life. And historian Deborah Lipstadt fears for the future. I never thought I would live to see a day where I had to be protected in the synagogue in America. And it's going to get worse. It's going to get worse.

I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening and please join us again next Sunday morning. Now streaming. I used to believe in progress that no matter what we do we just end up back at the start. We're in crazy time. The Paramount Plus original series The Good Fight returns for its final season. The point isn't the end. The point is winning.

Yes! There are bad people in the world. The best way to protect the good people is to convict the bad. So here's to us. The Good Fight the final season now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus.