Is God Necessary For Truth Or Morality?

Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. The idea of absolute truth is dead and gone. Oddly, the people who say it's dead are the same people who proclaim their truth as ultimate truth. In a crazy world, relativistic truthiness has replaced the real deal. You have your truth and I have mine and no one can make me conform to yours.

The result, societal breakdown. Today, Pastors Erwin Lutzer and Larry McCarthy talk about where real truth comes from and why that will never change. Stay with us. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. Now with more about the eclipse of God, here is Pastor Lutzer along with Pastor Larry McCarthy. Hi, this is Pastor Lutzer and I want to welcome you to a very special broadcast of Running to Win.

With me here in the studio is Larry McCarthy. He's on the pastoral staff here at the Moody Church. He's responsible for Compassion Ministries and that covers a wide waterfront. Now if you were with us last time, you know that we discussed the question, is God more tolerant than he used to be? And I warned about interpreting the silence of God as the leniency of God. We here at Running to Win are deeply committed to trying to help all of us remember that at the end of the day, it is God that we need. All of these discussions are based on my new book entitled The Eclipse of God. I wrote the book trying to emphasize our need to return to God but also to show that God was necessary for issues such as truth and morality and even law.

We're going to be getting into some of those topics today. So Pastor Larry, we begin today with chapter 7. What is the title?

I'm so excited about this. Now Pastor, I got to tell you, I appreciated your discussion that silence is not indifference and man, I really thought it was a powerful pronouncement when you talked about the Great White Throne Judgment but 7 is my favorite chapter. Returning to the God of truth, not truthiness. I love the title, truthiness. What does it mean?

Where did it come from? Why is it important? Well Larry, every year the Merriam-Webster dictionary has a word of the year. Back in 2006, the word was truthiness. What that means basically is something may be partially true, may be not exactly true, could be false, but it still has truthiness. I need an example. Oh, you need an example. Well, I could talk about politics, I could talk about examples of where statements are made which are partially true. No example comes specifically to mind unless we jump into the rest of the chapter and talk about how truthiness has influenced such things such as history. Is it okay if we go there?

Let's go. Let's look at historical studies. It used to be that history was a study of certain facts. It was believed that there were two sides to every story but there was one truth and we might disagree as to what that one truth is but history was something outside of ourselves that we studied in order to be informed. Now today, history for example and this I think responds to your issue of truthiness, history is not so much a study of the past as it is a study of me, my relationship to the documents.

I have to go on a little further. It's based on Marx who taught that there is no such thing as truth. Truth is really sociologically constructed. It is something used by people in power and so what you need to ask is all of the texts are basically viewed as propaganda so and this gets into the word deconstruction.

Deconstruction means that I approach a text to try to find hierarchies, to try to find a desire to hang on to power and therefore believe it or not, the emphasis is not on what the text says but the emphasis is on what you think the text says. Now this is why when young people go to universities and colleges oftentimes, not always but oftentimes, they come back thinking very differently. I need to continue for a moment just to show you how this is applied. There was a young man who was asked, what would you say to God if God were to say to you, why should I let you into heaven or if God were to judge you, notice carefully his response.

He said, I would tell him he has no right to judge me because I did not acknowledge him. In other words, even in eternity, I am in charge and this is where the idea arises, I have my truth and your truth and they may be contradictory but this is truthiness and it's an opportunity for people to exhibit who they are, to be able to look deep into their own souls and in doing that, they discover the truth and the outer documents may be read, they may be studied but never taken at face value. The indictment that you raise on the contemporary universities is kind of twofold. On one hand you say we've abandoned the pursuit of truth, we're not even interested in pursuing truth and then you introduce this double think concept. Well let's talk about double think. George Orwell's book 1984, the novel that talked about the Orwellian state that people speak about.

In it, a man by the name of Winston was taken into a room and told that two plus two is equal to five, sometimes it's equal to three, sometimes it's equal to both. We should not be surprised that he had some difficulty accepting that until he was taken to a special room and indoctrinated so that he could believe contradictions and that is double think and our nation, our educational system often wants us to enter into double think. They think that truth is not coherent. By the way, I have some fantastic illustrations about that but I want to say this to everyone who is listening. Parents, grandparents, I hope that you are listening. I also hope that many, many college students are listening to what I'm going to say now because it distinguishes the difference between progressives and those who are more traditional people like us.

Here it is. In today's culture, truth is based on how I feel. It is not based on something outside of me that is objective. Now you take the whole LGBTQ plus community and all of the gains that have been made, it has largely been driven by compassion and compassion is good. Jesus showed compassion but you cannot build truth on what is compassionate because there are some things that are true.

I hope that we have time to get to this. There are some things that are true which are offensive and don't sound compassionate at all. So the difference is do I see truth as something objective that exists outside of me or do I see truth as something that makes me in charge and I determine what the truth is.

Darrell Bock Okay, so another volley that you submit in seven regarding the university. So we've got this issue of truthiness, we've got double think and then you talk about speech codes for our listeners. What does that mean? What's speech codes? Dr. George Koob Oh Larry, thank you for asking that. I was hoping you actually would ask that question. Darrell Bock This is my favorite chapter.

I love chapter seven. Dr. George Koob Speech codes, I quote some of them in the book. You know that you cannot talk about a freshman because it has the word man and that's toxic. You cannot even in one of the speech codes talk about if there's a barber shop in your area. Don't say that he takes walk-ins because you might offend people that can't walk.

There are people who are in wheelchairs. So on and on it goes. One of the speech codes that I think I quote in the book that we're talking about, The Eclipse of God, is you should not mention America because that is really bigotry, perhaps racism. So here you have these speech codes. All right, it's time for us to take a deep breath and ask the question that you asked.

What's going on? Is the intention to elevate the debate? Of course not. The intention is to silence the debate.

You have no idea what is appropriate. So you self-censor yourself. Dr. George Koob That is really, yes.

Any debate has to be rooted in truth, not feelings. Dr. George Koob Speech codes, yes. So let me ask this question and I do so with a smile on my face. Can we still go into a restaurant and ask for a menu? Is that still okay or do we have to also ask for a woman-u? Can we still speak of a manhole cover? I don't think so.

It's probably a person-hole cover. You see, the absurdity so Dr. George Koob But I see why that is attractive. I didn't fail trigonometry. You just didn't teach me. Dr. George Koob Well, that's interesting. I didn't fail at playing the piano. I just had a teacher who didn't teach me properly.

Yes, that's right. Dr. George Koob I'm getting the hang of it. Dr. George Koob You're beginning to understand the contemporary understanding of truth. Now, of course, as you know, I'm interested in propaganda and one of the things that propaganda does is it so shapes people's view of reality that even when you are confronted with a mountain of evidence, you do not change your minds.

And we don't have time to discuss that in detail here. But it's so important for us to understand, and we have to get to this, that truth actually is rooted in God. And I want to comment on the logic of God.

In the book, I tell the story of a student. Actually, there was a young woman in our church who said that she was sitting across the aisle from a student who wrote a paper on truth. He said, there's no such thing as truth. Truth is not coherent. I have my truth, you have your truth.

She gave me the paper. I wrote a very brief note, Larry, and I said, if what you're saying is true, we know in advance that what you have written is false. In fact, whenever you open your mouth, we already know in advance that you are going to be telling lies, because you just said, there's no such thing as truth. I love it.

I love that illustration in the book. I gotta ask you, though, Pastor Lutzer, why such a violent reaction when people hear truth? It's like they don't even want to entertain the idea that there is truth. Well, you know, we all know that there is scientific truth. People in their right minds do agree that two plus two is equal to four. So in some areas, such as math, we know that there is truth. I mean, that's generally accepted.

But this idea that there is no truth has, of course, infiltrated all other disciplines. But in answer to your question more specifically, for lack of time, let's jump right into Pilate standing before Jesus. Jesus says these words to Pilate. He says, For this cause was I born, and for this cause I came into the world to bear witness to the truth. Jesus didn't say, I came because I wanted to make people feel better, though God be thanked. When we believe the gospel, we feel better. Amen. But he came to bear witness to the truth. And isn't it interesting?

Pilate immediately left and went out and talked to the mob. Okay. Now, why is that going on? There are some truths we are willing to accept. But when it comes to the truth about Jesus, that's where the resistance comes.

Here it is. And Pilate learned something that our age has to learn. You can kill a man, but you can't kill truth. And here is Jesus standing before him, the truth. And Pilate turns away from the truth. Why Jesus? Well, people don't like what Jesus taught, the fact that we are all sinners, and that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man gets to the Father except through him.

So obviously there's a lot of resistance to that truth. Very quickly, and you know that we have two more chapters to cover? Yes. Thank you for taking time in chapter 7.

It is just a fascinating read, and I love the way you're talking about these contemporary things that are going on here. Do you want to talk about chapter 8 now? Are you ready?

I think I have to be ready. I do want to say this, that all truth is rooted in God, and we can show that. Augustine, the great theologian and philosopher, said that if you believe that 2 plus 2 is equal to 4, it has to be rooted in God. But that's for a longer discussion. Let's go on to the next chapter, chapter 8. Returning to the God of Creation, Not Blind Chance. Interesting title, Pastor.

Yeah. You know, in it, I have an essay, a brief essay, on who created God. And I show that it is much more logical to believe that God existed forever than believing that the universe existed forever. But also something else in this chapter. I believe that we are seeing an erosion of the belief in the Bible when so many evangelicals are saying that Adam and Eve, as presented in the Scriptures, they did not exist. I have a discussion of that. I'm very burdened, but I have to say that belief is gaining traction everywhere. Now in that chapter, I also talk about people who want to recreate themselves. Yes.

Here I'm talking about the trans movement. Can you come back for just a second, though? Why is that so important, whether or not Adam is literary or if it's historical, why is that? You spend a lot of time in chapter 8 helping people to see why this error is so important.

The reason, Larry, is think of what we would lose. You have, for example, in the book of Romans the contrast between Adam and Christ, as in Adam all die, so in Christ all are made alive. Yes. This is the example of Jesus who even talked about how God made them male and female. Furthermore, you read the Scriptures and you discover Adam, how long he lived. I forget exactly what the year is, but it says Adam lived this many years. Well, it's like a fabric.

Once you tear it apart in one place, it all comes unraveled. There are many instances in the Bible where you have to believe in a literal Adam and Eve or else you have to jettison a lot of things that Jesus said and that the New Testament teaches. So I believe that this is a very serious compromise, and to all those who are listening, I would say this, be sure to check with your school, even your seminary, and ask whether they have professors who believe that Adam and Eve did not exist as described in the Scriptures. Now back to the issue of the trans movement. Reinventing ourselves. Reinventing ourselves, I give some advice to parents who have children who come to them and say, Mom and Dad, I think I'm trans. I'm very desirous in helping parents to understand how they have to deal with it, how they have to listen, but also how they have to respond to remind this broken generation, to remind them that you can choose what you want, but you cannot control the consequences of what you choose. Tell us more about that. Well, you think, for example, if somebody undergoes surgery to change their bodily functions from being a boy to a girl or the other way around, this is permanent.

You're talking about not being able to be a biological parent. And furthermore, there's a lot of regret and a lot of guilt, and it's coming to the surface. There are many people out there who are now beginning to talk against this trend, and we need to stand against it. Now, very quickly, I might say that we have to hurry on to the next chapter, and I can really only mention the title. This now is Chapter 9, in which I argue that God is necessary for morality. Returning to the God of moral absolutes, not our personal preferences, you suggest in the book that we can't have morality without God. That's a pretty bold statement there, isn't it?

It is. We can't at all. And for this, I'm going to actually quote a skeptic, David Hume, who said that there is no way to get from what is to what ought to be. There is no way that you can establish that. And I show that if you believe in morality at all, you may not know it, but you believe in God. You know the atheist who says, I don't need God to tell me that killing a person is wrong. The atheist doesn't realize that he says that because he's created in the image of God and has a God consciousness.

He cannot establish that on the basis of logic, and I argue that. And for those who have young people who think they can, I hope that they take advantage of the book I've written entitled The Eclipse of God, Our Nation's Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity. I want to thank the many of you who support this ministry, and we're making this resource available for you because we believe that it helps you understand the culture. But more than that, every chapter at the end has a declaration of dependence, driving us back to God, and also an action step. I want you to be able to respond. And next time, Larry, we're going to be talking about law and how law has to be based on transcendent principles.

And then the chapter that I think will raise a lot of eyebrows, the last major chapter, which is entitled Returning to the God of Wrath and Grace, Not the God of Unconditional Love. I sure hope that you join us next time. But remember this, we're making this resource available for you. Here's what you do. You go to rtwoffer.com. I know that sometimes I say that too quickly, so I'll say it again, rtwoffer.com.

Or you can pick up the phone and call us at 1-888-218-9337. Thank you in advance for helping us. The title of the book, The Eclipse of God. Pastor Erwin Lutzer, along with Pastor Larry McCarthy, with the fourth of five interviews on Erwin Lutzer's book, The Eclipse of God, Our Nation's Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity.

Now, a preview of what's ahead next time on Running to Win. And once you have man making laws that are disconnected from transcendent values, you can go in any direction you wish. Pastor, that suggests that just because it's lawful doesn't make it right? Is that what you're saying?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Let's back off and look at our own culture for just a moment. You have all kinds of views as to what is just. You have marriage justice, which is, of course, same-sex marriage. You have reproductive justice, which is abortion. You have environmental justice, which is the Green New Deal.

You have economic justice, which is socialism. We will never see grace as amazing unless we understand the nature of sin. It is when sin becomes bitter that grace becomes sweet. There are only two days left for us to make The Eclipse of God book available. It's our thank you for your gift of any amount to support Running to Win. Call us at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Online, go to rtwoffer.com. That's rtwoffer.com. Or write to Running to Win, Moody Church, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, IL 60614. For Pastor Erwin Lutzer, this is Dave McAllister. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.