Pandemics, Plagues, And Natural Disasters Interview Part 4

Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. The COVID-19 blame game has not helped.

Pointing the political finger does not bring back the lives of those lost. But what if global death and destruction is only beginning? What if our present distress is only a foretaste? Today, a frank look at the biblical future for fallen humanity and what we as believers must learn if we're to be victorious in this dark time. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. To help us hear what God is saying in the midst of this disaster, here once again is Erwin Lutzer. Well, this is Pastor Lutzer, and once again I want to welcome you to a very special program here on Running to Win.

My good friend Larry McCarthy is with me here in the studio. He's a pastor here at the Moody Church, and we're discussing a new book I've written entitled Pandemics, Plagues, and Natural Disasters. And Larry, as we emphasized last time, it is very important for us to realize what the subtitle is. What is God saying?

Man, is that so relevant for today. We need to know what God is saying about these things. But Pastor, I've got to be candid with you. When we're getting here to chapter 6 and this topic of the worst is yet to come, I was with you in these other sessions when you talked about the sovereignty of God and you talked about the lessons that we can learn from natural disasters and even the call to repentance. But the worst is yet to come.

How can it get any worse? Well, let me begin differently and say this, that if you've been to a movie, you know that oftentimes you see a preview. In fact, I like to go to a movie if I ever do, and that happens maybe once every two years. I like to go a little bit late to miss the other previews. But the previews are there to let you know what is coming. Natural disasters are a preview of the worst that is still to come. Recently, I read the book of Revelation with one idea in mind.

How many different judgments are there in the book of Revelation that we already see in this life? For example, Jesus said in Luke chapter 21, verse 11, he talked about the time when pestilence is going to come. Well, is COVID that pestilence? No, but I think that COVID is a preview of the pestilence that is to come. He talked about, you know, you speak for example in the book of Revelation about earthquakes, which we know happened today, famine.

And then we have such things as wind mentioned, great winds in the book of Revelation. We also have locusts. Now, you know that there has been a great plague of locusts in certain parts of Africa in last months and perhaps continuing. And all of this prefigures the fact that someday there's going to be a huge plague of locusts that's going to be far worse. And people say, well Pastor Lutzer, you have to understand that the book of Revelation is filled with symbolism. Yeah, I know. But whatever those locusts are, they're going to be far worse than the locust we have now.

So here's the point I want to make. If you look at the return of Jesus, for example, you know there's going to be signs in the sun and the moon and so forth. And then you read the book of Revelation and you see stars falling onto the earth, so to speak, and you see all of these judgments pounding the earth. You realize that the worst is yet to come. To use a colloquial phrase, we ain't seen nothing yet in accordance with what is still to come.

So as we emphasized last time, there are lessons that we have to emphasize when it comes to natural disasters, but we also have to realize that these lessons have to be learned in this life because for many people, when the worst is going to come, they will not be ready for it. Now this is one of the most chilling things, and in a moment we're actually going to be talking about the doctrine of hell if you're talking about the worst is yet to come. You read in the book of Revelation that all of the wrath of the Lamb that comes, the wrath of the Lamb has come and who is able to stand. The Bible says that men will hide in the clefts and in the rocks of the mountains and say to the mountains and rocks, fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. Now all of the things that are happening in this world are preview and that's why I say that the worst is yet to come. Wow, that's really instructive, Pastor. I was thinking about that passage in Joel where he says that God can restore what the locusts have eaten and in your book you say that there is a way of escape.

Yeah. It's so… Oh, am I very glad for that and that's actually the next chapter but let's go there because we have to go there. Before we go there though, I do want to emphasize the fact that hell exists. Well, is God overreacting with hell?

I mean isn't that a little bit of a severe punishment? Actually when you think of hell being eternal, this is the most sobering thing. I remember here at the Moody Church, I preached on hell maybe twice.

I do recall that the night before I preached on it from the book of Revelation, I could scarcely sleep because it is so sobering. But I'll answer your question directly as best as I'm able to answer it. What if Jonathan Edwards is right when he says the greatness of the sin is measured by the greatness of the being against whom it is committed? For example, if you throw a snowball at your brother, you're okay. If you throw a snowball at the mailman, if you still have a mailman, you can get by with that. If you throw a snowball at a policeman, you might be in some serious trouble.

If you throw one at the president of the United States, you'll be locked up. Now let's take that a step higher. All sin is a violation of God's holiness and part of the reason why we struggle with the doctrine of hell is the fact that we do not understand how holy God actually is. Say that. So from our standpoint, it looks as if it's an overreaction but you know, you read the book of Revelation and you realize that forever, we are going to be saying just and true are thy ways thou king of saints. Amen. But now, to your question, Larry, that you raised a moment ago, is there a way of escape? I love that passage in the 12th chapter of the book of Hebrews. Now, I don't have it open before me but I know exactly where I'm going and I would say to all of our listeners, if you have a Bible that you can immediately access, don't do it if you're driving but if you're sitting somewhere, turn to the 12th chapter of the book of Hebrews. The author there talks about two mountains. There's Mount Sinai with all of its judgments. God says, I'm coming, stand back. If you get close to the mountain, if a beast gets close and you touch the beast, you're going to die so you have to shoot at him with an arrow. God is saying, stay away because this is my holiness coming and God descends on Mount Sinai with smoke and with earthquake and everything else that's connected with Mount Sinai.

It almost gives you chills. You can imagine how afraid the people were standing there and seeing God come on Sinai and God saying, stand back. Okay, there's that mountain, Mount Sinai. But in the very same breath, the author says, but now we come to Mount Zion. Now, Zion actually is a poetic name for the city of Jerusalem. He's saying, we are coming to Mount Zion where Jesus died and he talks about the fact that Jesus Christ died for us. Now, here's what really gets me excited and actually, Larry, throughout the years when I preach the gospel, this is the heart of it right here. This is what it's all about, okay?

Yes. The horrors of Sinai can be exchanged for the grace and the blessing of Calvary, Mount Calvary. And there was an earthquake at Mount Calvary too, you know, as we've emphasized in our times together how important it is to see God in natural disaster. So you have an earthquake in Sinai. You also have an earthquake when Jesus dies on the cross.

And what happens? The veil in the temple is torn in two, top to bottom, because God says, I'm the one doing this. Entry now into the presence of God and you're received and you're welcomed and you become a child of God forever. Sinai, under the law, stay away. And that's why all of those sacrifices were offered.

That's a very complicated issue. But in the Old Testament, what God was saying with all those sacrifices is this. I want to have fellowship with people without compromising my holiness. So you have this whole system of sacrifices and all.

Well, that all ends with Jesus. And what God is saying to us today, and I'm so glad, Larry, that I'm living under grace and not under Old Testament laws. Have you ever thanked God for that? Daily.

Daily, absolutely. That under the protection of Jesus, what we have is, and in the book I list a number of different verses, and I don't have it before me, but verses like this from Thessalonians, that Jesus Christ saves us from the wrath to come and how he came to deliver us from God's wrath. And it is so critical for us to emphasize the fact that Jesus bore – I've never put it this way before, but it's just coming to mind – Jesus bore Sinai for us so that we could receive the grace, the forgiveness, and the protection of Mount Calvary.

He did that for us. Amen. Amen. And so that's the way of escape.

I love that part of the book here because you take those two things when God shook things up, those two examples of how he revealed himself each time he used those earthquakes to shake things up, so to speak, to reveal himself. You talk about this, though. You say, okay, we have this way of escape, but there are people, Pastor, if we're going to be honest today, they're angry with God. Yeah. I'm going to get to that in a second.

I want to give one illustration and then I'll get to the angry people because we promised the people in an earlier program that we'd answer it. This is our last time together, believe it or not. Say it ain't so. So we have to hurry.

Okay. Back in the days when there were the prairies and farmers would have land, they knew that they could have a prairie fire. So what they would do is to take their buildings and when the weather was favorable and the wind was blowing in the right direction, they would burn around their holdings, their house, their barn, so forth, and they'd burn huge patches of grass around their buildings.

And then they knew that if the fire came, it wouldn't touch those buildings because the buildings were where the fire had already been. Yes. Jesus says, and this I plead with people who are listening who have never come to Christ as Savior, Jesus says that if you admit your sinfulness and receive my grace, you'll be standing where the fire of God has already been and our God is a consuming fire. Amen. Amen. I don't know if we should go on. Yeah. I think we should leave that.

I think we should. But here now, you asked me a question. Yeah. Their people are angry, Pastor. And they're, you know what, they're angry at the circumstance, they're angry at other people, they're angry at their governments, but they're angry at God. Oh, I'll tell you something. There are plenty of people who are so turned off to God for many different reasons, some because of the home life that they've lived in, some because he hasn't answered their prayers. I remember a man who lost a child, said, God isn't worth a plugged nickel to me.

Why should I bother with him if he doesn't bother with me, if he doesn't answer my prayers? So the question is, how do we answer that? Yes. So what I do in the book is tell a story. Rebecca and I have a repairman that comes to our home. This was many years ago.

I even forget why he came, some electrical issue or whatever. And we, of course, discuss because I love to pick up conversations with people and he says to me, in effect, I'm an atheist. He said, if there is a God and I have to burn in hell, I will defy him in anger forever. Help us, Father.

Yeah, help us. So what do you say to a person like that? First of all, you say, I'm really glad that you understand that our God is a consuming fire and he's to be feared.

Yes. We have too many conceptions of God out there that are sort of fuzzy. He loves everybody and everybody's going to get in at the end of the day. So take the fact that you understand that God is a consuming fire. Understand that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. So I said to him, if you want to walk away from God, you know, on the basis of that, I'm sure you have lots of company because there are a lot of people who are taking that direction.

But that is so foolish. Wisdom would dictate that what you should do is to flee to the refuge that has been provided for you in Jesus Christ who saves you from the wrath to come. Why try to take on an infinite God? Do you think God is going to be impressed? Oh, there's this guy in hell who's defying me.

Are you kidding? What we need to do, Larry, is to understand that thanks to Jesus, we do have a way of escape and it is the wise thing to do. And then you can give him some of the verses that we've already emphasized that Jesus comes to save us from the wrath to come. Why take on an omnipotent God and think you're going to win?

I mean, if you have a rowboat, you're not going to take on an aircraft carrier. You know? I mean, really, who are you to say you're going to just be thankful? That talks about anger, but what about that person who's listening even now who's having doubt, Pastor? In the face of all the disaster, they're doubting.

Oh, boy, Larry, the clock is running down here, so I have to really hurry, don't I? First of all, the Bible makes it very clear that God doesn't have to answer our prayers or deliver us in order to be faithful. The apostle Paul says in Romans 8, he lists about seven or eight things that will not separate us from the love of Christ.

It includes famine, it includes destitution, it includes poverty, it includes all this, that we are still profoundly loved, so we need to keep that in mind. The other thing, though, regarding doubt, and I do have a section on the book on doubt. It's okay if you doubt, as long as your doubts are honest. What God doesn't have much patience with is dishonest doubters, people who don't want to believe.

But if you are honest, it's okay to have doubts. Best example in the Bible, John the Baptist. He's locked up in prison, and so he says to his disciples, go talk to Jesus, art thou he that should come, or should we look for another? Because I shouldn't be in here.

Because I shouldn't be in here, exactly. You know, you're the king, you're the Messiah, and here I sit. You know, and later on he gets beheaded, as a matter of fact. And what does Jesus say? Jesus said to the disciples, you know, go tell John that the dead are being raised and so forth, and I could expound on that passage a little bit more, but we have to hurry. But here's what Jesus says. Among those born of women, none is greater than John the Baptist.

Now think about that. Jesus said that at the very time that John was sitting in prison doubting whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. Wow. You know, Pastor, when you, I mean, you're talking about our faith and times that are really just trying and hard. You use a wonderful illustration at the end of this book about this woman in Haiti and her faith. Oh, I want everyone who's listening to listen carefully to this and understand what an emotional moment this is to me, and I'll describe it as best I can.

Here's Haiti 10 years ago, terrible earthquake. A young woman is about to board a bus. Others have gone onto the bus ahead of her. She has a baby in one arm, and a reporter asks her, what happened to you? And she says, I lost my child 18 months old.

He was killed in the rubble. And the reporter says, were you able to bury him? And she says, no, I had to, this is a direct quote, I had to throw him away because of what happened. Now, the camera zeroes in on this woman, and I notice that in her backpack there's a Bible.

It's very clear. By now she is ready to get onto the bus. She has no clue where she's going except that the bus is there to rescue them, to take them God knows where. She has a baby in her arm, she has a dead baby that she wasn't even able to bury, and she's about to get onto the bus. And she says, God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in time of need. And with that she disappeared.

When that was over, Larry, I just kept staring at that TV set and saying, what is it that I just saw? Here is a woman who is quoting Psalm 46. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Notice, therefore we will not fear, though the earth be removed, though the mountains be cast into the depths of the sea. Talk about a natural disaster.

We've never seen, well, maybe small mountains cast into the depths of the sea, but we've never seen the mountains cast into the depths of the sea. I will go on believing him. And all of us know that that Psalm, which we ought to read occasionally, and I memorized years ago but in the King James Version of the Bible, it ends by talking about the fact that, you know, God is the one who does all kinds of things and then it says, be still and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the heathen. I will be exalted in the earth.

The fact is that this woman experiencing this terrible natural disaster was willing to go on believing. Now, Larry, I think that in the day when we stand before Jesus, you and I will probably not see her. She's going to be so close to the Lord and you and I are going to be so far back that we'll probably not meet. Go on believing no matter what. Larry, this has been a tremendous time and we've come to the end of the program. I've written a book entitled Pandemics, Plagues and Natural Disasters, and the subtitle, very important, What is God Saying to Us, five chapters on what God is saying to us, two chapters on what we should be saying to God, and the purpose of the book is to explain God's sovereignty and why we can trust Him even when things don't get better and why it is that He is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble, even if the earth is removed and mountains are cast into the depths of the sea.

This is our last time together. God bless you. Erwin Lutzer with Larry McCarthy, wrapping up a discussion of pandemics, plagues and natural disasters. Ever feel like a square peg in a round hole? Try as you might, you don't seem to fit in with others.

Happily, there's a solution. God has a place of service for every Christian and a spiritual gift every Christian can use to benefit others in that place of service. Next time on Running to Win, we begin a series on finding where you fit.

We'll learn how to identify our gifts and how to put them to work. Pastor Lutzer's new book on pandemics, plagues and natural disasters will be sent as our gift to you as you support Running to Win with your gift of any amount. Just call us at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Or write to us at Running to Win, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, Illinois 60614. Online, reach us at rtwoffer.com. That's rtwoffer.com. Thanks for listening. For Dr. Erwin Lutzer, this is Dave McAllister. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.