Pandemics, Plagues, And Natural Disasters Interview Part 2

Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. It's comforting to ask God for help in times of trouble. But what if God is the one who sent the trouble you're going through?

What do you ask of a God who brings destruction? It's high time to set the record straight on the why of plagues like COVID-19. Stay with us. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. The COVID crisis has paralyzed the economy and upended all of our lives. Here once again is Pastor Lutzer with more on pandemics, plagues and natural disasters.

Welcome to this very special session of Running to Win. In the studio here is Larry McCarthy. He's one of our pastoral staff here at the Moody Church. He's been a great blessing to so many people, and we appreciate him interacting with me in the book that I've written entitled Pandemics, Plagues and Natural Disasters, What is God Saying to Us? Now, Larry has read the book, and that's why he and I can dialogue together about this very, very important subject and to try to help people to think through clearly and biblically as to what God says about natural disasters and what God says about his relationship to those natural disasters. Yes, Pastor, thank you so much for having me.

But we don't have any time to waste because this chapter has got some really important stuff in it. There's an illustration in here that you use that, man, you talk about these pastors in California. There's an earthquake, and you'd say that they give thanks that God saw fit to have the earthquake at a time in the morning when there wasn't a lot of traffic and people were saved, yet on the other hand they're saying, but God doesn't really have anything to do with these kinds of things.

Isn't that interesting? I got a report about this, and that's why I included it, is that here they have a prayer breakfast, and they're talking about the fact, well, you know, it's just that the earth has fallen. You know, there are these plates under the earth that cause earthquakes, and God sort of is interested.

He's sort of a bystander because after all, as I've mentioned, nature has fallen. And then at the end, in the prayer, he says, oh God, we thank you that it came at five o'clock in the morning when there wasn't much traffic on the expressway. Well, if God didn't have anything to do about it, the timing of it and the extent of it, why give him thanks for the timing?

It just sort of happened. Robert Chisholm Yes, yes, but that's hard theology, though, isn't it? When we think about there isn't anything that happens that doesn't have to go through God's permissive will, that's just hard to get a grasp on it.

Robert Chisholm Yeah, but in a minute, I'll tell you why I find that so exciting. But, you know, you're absolutely right. One of the things that I talk about is the fact that Christians have said, okay, God's in charge, but we shouldn't tell anybody because if they knew that God was in charge, they're going to be angry with God.

Well, in a future broadcast, we'll talk about that kind of anger and how to handle it. But for now, there are two ways that people have tried, theologians, to try to distance God from natural disasters. One is to say basically he's doing the best he can. As a matter of fact, there are those who actually think of themselves as evangelicals who have taken that point of view. I quote one of them as saying that when Katrina came to the coast, God is the first one who wept. Well, and then they say, well, in the end, he'll overcome it all, but for now, you know, he's doing the best he can. As a matter of fact, this theologian that I actually quote says God is powerful but not all powerful.

So, you know, we have to help him. William James, the humanist, said that, that God can't overcome evil, but if we help him, maybe someday he will. I say in the book that it almost makes you want to weep with God and maybe even for God. The fact is that that kind of a view of God is not biblical. But then there's the other way, which is more scriptural, but we need to unpack it, namely to say that the earth is fallen, which it most assuredly is, and there are certain laws of nature. You know, if you have a tornado, it's because of weather patterns.

If you have an earthquake, it's because of the shift under the earth's crust. You know, if you have a pandemic, it's because of germs that have come from wherever, and so you recognize that we live in a fallen world. But, Larry, this is the point I want to emphasize, that these things that I've mentioned could be thought of as the immediate or secondary causes of these events, but ultimately they can't happen unless God signs off on them. And what we must understand is that, you know, the Bible, and maybe we'll get to this in a moment, it expressly talks about God's involvement and the fact that God is in charge with natural disasters.

Yeah. You know, it brings to mind the story of Job, and that was – it's so instructive, and I think in terms of this conversation, perhaps you could just linger there for a moment and talk about the story of Job. The reason that the story of Job is so instructive, to use your word, is because those disasters – and there were two of them – there was lightning, which killed the cattle and some of the servants, and then there was a windstorm, which killed ten of his children, okay? The reason that that is so interesting is that the devil did it, but the devil couldn't do it unless God says, you have permission, my permission to do it. So, even though we say that its secondary causes that are the immediate cause of these events, back behind them is God.

And, you know, when you think of it logically, you can say, well, yeah, God doesn't ordain it, he only permits it, but very logically, doesn't it amount to essentially the same thing? I think so, but it's still hard to get your mind around it, the permissive will of God, but if he knew what was going to happen, and he did, and he allowed it, which he has, where's the comfort in that? Okay, where's the comfort in that? That's a very good question. And I want to put off the comfort bit for just a moment, but we are going to get to that, because as I've emphasized, we need to trust God even when we don't understand, and there is comfort.

In fact, I want to get to the comfort, but first of all, I want to point this out, and then I'll answer your question directly. Okay. And then when you read the scriptures, you realize that God apparently is not very concerned about his own reputation at all, as theologians seem to be. He takes full responsibility for what happens in natural disasters. I mean, who sent the plagues during the time of Egypt? Yes. Who caused the rain during the time of Noah?

Who made the sun stand still to give Joshua some extra time? And then I kind of love this passage. I mean, just explicitly, in your face, Jonah chapter 1 verse 4, and the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea. You didn't tell me you were going to preach today. Go ahead. Okay. I'll tell you why I love to preach this, and now I'm going to talk about the comfort side. The reason I like to emphasize the sovereignty of God in this is because if natural disasters are out of God's hands, let's make it even more personal.

Okay. If COVID is out of God's hands, then I am out of God's hands, because, after all, I could get the disease and die of it. So, the fact is that it is very comforting for me to know, despite the mystery that we'll also talk about in next broadcast, but it's very comforting for me to know that I am in God's hands, and certainly, we have responsibility. We wash our hands repeatedly. We do what our health experts tell us. But, Larry, there are no guarantees. Just this morning coming here, I was thinking to myself, well, you know, is this door handle?

Maybe does it have COVID and all that? You're almost driven to distraction. But the fact is that you are in God's hands. If I might quote John Calvin, he said he was greatly afflicted, by the way.

He had all kinds of things wrong with him, and he went through a lot of pain and everything and actually died in his 50s and did an awful lot. But he said, I am greatly afflicted, but it is from God's hand. Therefore, I am abundantly satisfied. So, to your issue of comfort, this is just forming in my mind now as a way to help us understand the issues. What is more comforting, the belief that somehow COVID and natural disasters are happening sort of independently of God there and he's just watching? Or is it more comforting to know that he is in control, which incidentally is the title of this chapter.

The title is, you know, I'm in Control, Trust Me. Is that more comforting? To me, that's much more comforting, to know that I am in God's hands. And you know what it means? And I'm looking at you, Larry, right here, and the people of course can't see you, but I can with a great deal of clarity. Jesus said that the very hair of your head is numbered.

There are only three for me. So, he doesn't have too big a responsibility when it comes to you. He has a few more when he talks about mine.

But think of the detail. That's the point that Jesus wants to make. And in the same passage, he says this, that if you see a sparrow fall to the ground, you should say to yourself, God was at my window last night when you see the sparrow on the ground. Because Jesus said that a sparrow doesn't fall, except that I take note of it. So, I want to say to the people out there, the very details of your life which God permits, that we like that particular kind of language, that God permits, those details are in his hand.

And because of that, we can trust him. We know that there's nothing that is going to come to us that is going to be extraneous to the sovereign purposes and the will of God. And you know, this time of COVID, and of course, I discuss in the book other natural cultures, locusts in Africa and tornadoes and the whole bit, is a very trying time. I think it's John Piper and I'm doing this from memory, but he says in effect that this is a very bitter period, but yet we have to see God in it. It is God who in effect sent it because he permitted it. It is God who is going to end it. And during this period of time, oh I want to emphasize this, God walks with us through this period of time.

Amen. What an important message of encouragement that is the sovereignty of God even in this has not been in any way dissipated here. That is such an important fact for every believer to embrace and hold on to and you expressed it here with great clarity and certainly in the book as well. Scripture has a lot to say regarding God and natural disasters and you touch on that in this chapter as well. There are some really clear statements in Scripture regarding God and natural disasters. Can you address that for a minute?

Yeah. You know, as I mentioned, you know, whether it's the plagues or the rain during the time of Noah and so forth, but here's something else. Natural disasters are not only and in one of the sessions we hope to discuss at least briefly whether or not they are judgments, but natural disasters we must understand with clarity can sometimes not be negative but are sent for very positive reasons to help the people of God. For example, there is a passage, I think it's in Samuel, where Jonathan is fighting a war and it says the earth trembled and it was from the Lord to help him.

You get to the New Testament and Paul and Silas are in prison and an earthquake comes and the Bible says the foundations of the prison shook and you know the rest of the story, how they were able to get out as a result of this. So, we must see God in natural disasters both in terms of judgment, if we want to use that particular terminology, though we'll discuss that in a future broadcast, but we must also see him fighting for us sometimes through natural disasters and he's always fighting for us actually, so I really misspoke because of God is for us who can be against us, but there are those times when – and I have to clarify, in our minds, Larry, we always think anything that happens to me that's negative is bad, anything that happens to me that's positive and helpful is good. God doesn't always make that distinction. He says you have to see me in the bad and if we only believe because we are able to understand, that faith is very limited. So, I think I mentioned this last time, but I'm going to say it and probably say it again, is it is not necessary for us to understand all of God's purposes in order for us to trust that those purposes exist and so we go on believing even though there is no deliverance. You know, as I say, just ask the martyrs. That's a great illustration that you used from Jonathan.

He climbed up on the Boaz to attack the Philistines and routed them up there and then the earthquake put the icing on the cake. That's really a good illustration. I like how you use that there. You take us down this corridor and you say you got to trust God. He's sovereign.

He's in control. So it kind of takes out of our vocabulary that we're at accident. It really does and you know, there are accidents.

We call them accidents, but to God there are no accidents. You know, in the book here, and I'm sure we're getting to this, I tell a modern day Job story. But first of all, I want to just camp with Job for a moment before I tell this story. Isn't it interesting that Job didn't say, even though the devil is the one that did the natural disasters that killed 10 children, I mean imagine 10 fresh graves on the hillside.

Just think about that. Job didn't say, the Lord gave and the devil took away, blessed be the name of the Lord. Job had his theology.

He had it nailed. You know, the Lord gave and the Lord took away, even though his kids were all killed because of a windstorm. That perspective though that because the Lord gave, he has the authority to take. We don't think about that.

We really don't. You know, in the book I share a story and I do it with their permission and I love to tell it because it really represents a modern day Job story. Janet and Scott Willis were driving along near Milwaukee about 25 years ago and many of you perhaps have heard this story because it was national news at the time. They were driving along and a piece of metal fell from a truck ahead of them and Scott had no option except to drive over it because there was no way that he could circumvent it. It caused the gasoline tank in their vehicle to explode. Now they had six children in the van and all of them on five died right there. Now this is why sometimes when I tell this story, tears come to my eyes. I want people to grasp this and I checked this out with Scott because he and Janet have become very personal friends of ours. As a matter of fact, we spent a couple of days with them several months ago. Scott says that out on the highway with a gas exploding and a van in flames. Now they were able to jump out each on the side.

They were burned but they were able to recover from their burns weeks later. Out on the highway, he said to Janet, Janet, they are with the Lord. We are prepared for this. And then he urged her to quote the verse, Psalm 34 verse 1 which I try to quote every morning by the way in my worship time.

It's a good way to begin. Bless the Lord at all times. His praise shall continue to be in my mouth. Now Benjamin, the other child died later. He was taken to a hospital and died the next day but he still was alive at the scene of the accident. Just for people to understand, here you have six dead children. Janet was doing homeschooling. They come home and everything is there and belongs to their children.

You can just imagine. They could not grieve for six children at a time. So what they did is on Sunday, they would grieve for the oldest. On Monday, they would choose the next one all the way through the week, six days of the week because you can't grieve for six children all in one.

You need to be able to focus, okay. But here's the point I want to make. They believe today, 25 years later, Janet says that she knows this, that her children are safe and they are good. And every night that they go to bed, even though it's been 25 years since the accident, they say to themselves, we're one day closer to seeing our kids again. And here is a couple who like Job, I'm amazed at this, chose to bless rather than to curse. And it would be so easy and Scott and Janet would say this, think of all the contingencies, okay.

If the piece of metal had fallen, you know, a half mile further or a half mile down the highway or prior, if Scott and Janet had started out maybe one minute later or two minutes later, they'd have been in a different place of the highway, the same can be said for the truck. They would say, take all of those contingencies, Larry, and put them on a chalkboard, draw a circle around them and call it the providence of God. And they would say today with Job, the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away, blessed be the name of the Lord.

Now, can you even imagine how their faith is honoring to God, the trial of your faith being much more precious than gold that perishes. Well, our time is almost over and I need to tell you that next time we're going to talk about the lessons that natural disasters have for us. We're also going to talk about whether or not they are judgments of God. Yes. All that is to come. Oh boy, I can't wait. Yes. I wish we had time where we could cover all these points, but we're only hitting the highlights.

Yes. Many of you who are listening, you will want to know that the name of the book is Pandemics, Plagues, and Natural Disasters. And the subtitle, very important, What is God Saying to Us?

Five chapters in this book have to do with exactly what God is saying, no private revelation that I received, no visions, just the Bible in one hand and a hurting, discouraged, suffering world in the other. And so the question is how do we put them together and how do we keep on trusting God no matter what? So Larry, we'll see you right here next time as we continue our discussion, Pandemics, Plagues, and Natural Disasters. Amen. Erwin Lutzer and Larry McCarthy with part two of Pandemics, Plagues, and Natural Disasters, What is God Saying to Us? Next time, join us for part three. We can have spiritual COVID where people are not walking in obedience, where the church has 11 within it and there's plenty of 11 that we could talk about. And nobody seems to be interested in repenting, but let God touch your body. Yes, sir. And suddenly we're crying out to him and we're praying to him.

Would we be doing the same if it wasn't for the fact that our bodies were threatened by the disease? So don't miss our next broadcast. Pastor Lutzer's new book on Pandemics, Plagues, and Natural Disasters will be sent as our gift to you as you support running to win with your gift of any amount. Just call us at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Or write to us at Running to Win, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, IL 60614. Online, reach us at rtwoffer.com. This is Dave McAllister. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.