From Age to Age

Hello, I'm Dave Terrio, and I'm glad to have you with us for a special episode of Renewing Your Mind. Today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Keith Matheson, who is the newly appointed R.C. Sproul Chair of Theology at Reformation Bible College. Together we'll be discussing his book *From Age to Age*, which explores God's plan for the end of history by tracing each stage of development from Genesis to Revelation.

If you'd like to pick up a copy of this book, you can use the discount code RYM30. That's RYM30 at RenewingYourMind.org/store to save 30% at checkout. You can also use RYM30 to save on other titles from Dr. Matheson at Legionaire.org. But right now, let's get into the discussion about the book *From Age to Age*, which has a subtitle of *The Unfolding of Biblical Eschatology*.

So, Dr. Matheson, what is eschatology? Eschatology is a term that's common in systematic theology that means the doctrine of the last things.

So it comes from a Greek word eschatos, which means last, and then the ology that goes on the back of a lot of words that we talk about fields of study.

So eschatology is the study of quote the last things. Often that's very narrowly conceived in terms of things associated with the second coming of Christ and the final judgment and so forth. And there's a broader concept that I deal with in this book of everything in Scripture that is pointing forward to the final days.

So there's a couple of conceptions of the word eschatology, but in the in the most simple sense, it's doctrine of the last things. And why is the last things why are the last things important to the Christian to the average Christian? Because they're the goal. It's God's goal. This is what everything is working forward.

Towards, why did he create human beings? What has he created is for? Why did he send the Lord Jesus Christ for a purpose? And that purpose is ultimately fulfilled in the new heavens and the new earth at the end. And so, everything in Scripture is moving forward; it's goal-oriented, and that goal is God's goal.

From age to age, where does that title come from? I'm, I'm of course thinking about the the Luther hymn. I think it's the second verse. From age to age, the same. Where does it come from in relation to how does it relate to eschatology?

I think I originally saw that phrase in a hymn, and it just. Clicked because, as we're working through scriptures, we have different eras or ages, and so as we're moving forward through the Bible, from the Old Testament age to the New Testament age to the future age, it it just seemed to work, and the publishers agreed.

So you there's a there's a Preface to the Legenier edition, and a preface in this book. What's the difference, and why do you dedicate the book to R.C. Sproul, and then you say in the preface it remains dedicated to him? What is that about?

Well, he's been my mentor and teacher for a long time. I first encountered Doctor Sproul when I was a student at Dallas Seminary, and then became his student when I transferred to from. Reformed Theological Seminary, and then became an employee and colleague. When I started working at Ligonier Ministries 30 years ago, he's just been enormously influential on my life and my study of Scripture and my theology, and very much an encourager of my writing. I don't know that I would have had the confidence to keep writing if he hadn't.

Every time he read something, he would give me pointers and feedback, and and just. It was very positive, encouraging feedback, and so I go find something else to write.

So, safe to say, he's a significant influence in your life. Yes.

Now, you mentioned systematic theology again. I didn't really know those terms, sitting in a mainline evangelical pew.

So, define systematic theology for me, if you would. Systematic theology is one way of looking at the teaching of Scripture. There are various. Fields we have exegetical theology, which is the the study of the the Greek and Hebrew original texts, biblical theology. Is a specific term.

It's not as if the others aren't biblical, but biblical theology either deals with a particular author in Scripture.

So you might do the theology of Matthew or the theology of Isaiah. Today, it often is connected to tracing various themes all the way through Scripture. Scripture.

So you might have somebody write a book on the the temple theme as going all the way from the Garden of Eden to the the new heavens and new earth, and that would be biblical theology. When you get to systematic theology, you're looking at the scripture as a completed whole, and and trying to understand the relation of all these doctrines one to another, and explain them in a way where conservative evangelical systematic theologians believe scripture is inerrant.

So, in their doing of systematic theology, they're trying to show how all these doctrines fit together in a coherent single theology that doesn't involve contradiction. And doesn't involve ambiguity and vagueness.

So systematicians are trying to show how all the topics fit together in a coherent, non-contradictory way. You kind of combine that answer of my next question, which is good. The difference between biblical theology and systematic theology. Many Christians assume that eschatology is basically about the millennium of the end times. You argue that it's even Christ's first advent.

Is eschatological.

So, what's eschatology really about? It's about the the outworking of God's plan. When I say that the first advent of Christ is just as eschatological as the second advent, what I'm getting at is the fact if you go back and look at the Old Testament, God is promising to send His Messiah.

So He's making a promise about the future to Old Testament Israel. And the first advent is the initial stage in the fulfillment of that promise.

So those promises are forward-looking, and in that sense, eschatological.

So. Everything the Old Testament Israelites were promised and that they were looking forward to was to be fulfilled in the coming of the Messiah and the coming of His kingdom. What some of them did not fully grasp this is that all of this wasn't going to take place in one day in one single event. It ends up we find out after Christ's ascension, this is the fulfillment of all these Old Testament promises is actually going to involve. Several stages, if you will, we have the first coming of of Christ, where He accomplishes the the atonement.

He is the suffering servant. He is the King too. He is he is anointed as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and seated at the right hand of the Father. But the outworking of the expansion of that kingdom, rather than Him destroying all of His enemies. In one day and setting up the new heavens and new earth, actually is going to be a long-term process.

It's going to involve sending the disciples to every corner of the earth to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom. And during that time, he is putting his enemies beneath his feet and he's growing his church. All of that is in fulfillment of Old Testament promises. And then at the end, he will return and he will be the judge of the living and the dead. And He will usher in the final judgment in the new heavens and new earth.

But the point of of saying all of this is eschatological is that from the perspective of God's first promises about what He is, His goal and His objectives and His plan are, we start to read those even right after the fall. The you know the You you will crush that. He will bruise your heel, and you will bruise his head. That's a promise about something the Messiah is going to do. A little bit of a is not a fully worked out eschatological promise, but it's a promise of something God is going to do in the future.

And we keep seeing that over and over through the Old Testament, and then in the New Testament with the Gospels, we see the first advent of Christ. These promises are now being fulfilled. Jesus says He is the one; those Old Testament promises and types and prophecies were all about.

So He He's the fulfillment of that. But He's doing the He He's doing the fulfillment of those promises. In something of an unexpected way, to some of the first-century Jews who expected the last days to just come in and be a catastrophic single event, rather than a a long process involving the growth of the church and the spread of the gospel. Yeah, it's so true. If you'd like to hear more content like this, please subscribe to the Renewing Your Mind YouTube channel.

And if you'd like to pick up a copy of this book, you can use the discount code RYM thirty at renewingyourmind dot org slash store. That'll save you thirty percent at checkout.

So these eschatological promises are not just out there in the distance; they're really applicable to the believer as we walk and grow. Right. Right. We're we're in the middle of that. Even if you look at the epistles, you will find the apostles in some of the letters speaking about their own day as quote the last days, because Jesus has inaugurated that period of time that the Old Testament referred to as in the last days.

This will happen. All these things—the coming of the Messiah, the suffering servant, suffering for our sins—the the you know the the stone that will grow to be a mountain, the the judgment of God's enemies—those things were to happen in the last days. And so, when we read New Testament authors in the thirty years after Christ's death and resurrection and ascension, they're saying we're in the last days. And sometimes we read that, and we think, "Oh, they thought they were at the end of the world right then." Last days needs to be interpreted in the light of the way the Old Testament authors used that. It was it was that period that would be involved with the coming of the Messiah.

They just didn't always realize it was going to be a stretched out period of time. All of that, in some of their minds, and that seems to be part of the problem in the Gospels. Why some of the Jews didn't accept Christ? This isn't the way we thought it was going to happen. And the cross was even the apostles.

Sometimes you can't go to the cross and die. You are supposed to set up the kingdom and drive the Romans out.

So there was God surprised a lot of people in the way He's working out those last days promises, but. It it means that we're in in that in that time between the first and second advent, where God is is growing His kingdom, the sending the gospel forth, putting enemies beneath His feet, and it's it means we're in that time between these first and second advents that is. Part of quote the last days.

Now there is a last day to the last days, and that's what most of us are thinking about with when we think in the popular ways about eschatology, second coming of Christ, final judgment, and so forth. That that's the last day of the last days. But the last days began when Jesus was born, and that's what's so different about the way. Many Christians popularly understand eschatology in the way the Bible talks about it.

Well, this is a good segue into again more terms that I didn't know until I came to Ligonier, like all millennial, post millennial.

So, you in your preface say that there are terms that are not necessarily helpful anymore. Why is that? Part of it is because over the last five hundred years or so. the The doctrine of the millennium, the interpretation of what in the world the Apostle John is talking about in Revelation twenty, has been in a constant state of flux. Five hundred years ago.

People, many theologians, reformed and otherwise, thought the millennium was a golden age in the church's past. They thought Revelation was talking about some golden age in the first thousand years of the church, or maybe starting with Constantine in his conversion. And then, as historical understanding grew, people realized there never was a golden age in the past, and so they started to move the millennium into the future. And some thought maybe the Reformation is the first stage of this millennial golden age period. And then, with all the wars and the the wars that were going on in the century or so after the Reformation, people realized it.

No, we're not in the golden age yet.

So the millennium got pushed into the future, and then you started having debates over whether this millennium is going to be introduced gradually through the proclamation of the gospel, or is it going to be introduced catastrophically when Christ comes? And that led to the differentiation between a kind of premillennialism and a kind of postmillennialism, and then you still had older versions like all millennialism.

Well, fast forward to the twentieth century, we've got two major types of premillennialism: what is called a historical premillennialism and a dispensationalist premillennialism, which are very, very similar. Both of them believe that Jesus will come, and when he comes again, he will inaugurate a thousand-year millennium, and then at the end of that, there will be a final judgment, and then the new heavens and new earth.

So the millennium will be introduced catastrophically in both forms of premillennialism. Then you had two views: the amillennial view and the postmillennial view that differed in the sense the amillennial view was somewhat similar to Augustine's view, which saw the millennium as basically being the same as the entire church age between Christ's first advent and his second advent. And then postmillennialists in the early twentieth century said, "No, the millennium isn't the entire present age. It's the last thousand years of the present age when the gospel is spread and converted ninety-nine percent of the population, and so we'll have a golden age." And it's called postmillennialism because Jesus returns after post that millennial golden age.

Well, that characterizes amillennialism and postmillennialism for most of the 20th century. But then, in the 70s, starting in the 70s, some postmillennialists. Said they actually agreed with the amillennialists, and the millennium represents the entire present age between the first and second advent of Christ.

So they agreed with the amillennialists on the time of the millennium. They just differed on its nature. They were more optimistic about how it would end. At least optimistic in the sense of the number of converts and the spread of Christianity. Amillennialists would say they're optimistic as well.

So, between the seventies and today, you've had postmillennialists moving essentially away from this future golden age view of postmillennialism towards a view which believes, along with all millennialists, that Revelation twenty is talking about the entire reign of Christ from his first advent to his second advent. And some minor differences on the nature of it, and you've got some amillennialists wanting to express more optimism about the spread of the gospel.

So the views have always been moving around, but since the 70s, amillennialism and postmillennialism have just started to overlap more and more, and it's becoming harder and harder to see things that clearly distinguish them.

So I, I just don't find the terms particularly helpful anymore. Which is a shame because I wrote a book titled Postmillennialism, but at the at the time there were still enough of the old there was still enough differentiation that you could make a clear distinction. But even since that book, which was published, I believe, around 1999, they've become overlapping more and more.

So it's I don't know anymore whether I'm a non-millennialist or a post-millennialist because of the overlap. But it's not something new. It's been millennium's been moving around in people's interpretations for hundreds and hundreds of years. There is a lot there. There is a lot.

And I'll tell you what I kind of enjoy just listening to you talk is the kind of energy. I mean, I want to read this book to see your energy in it because you are excited about it, and it's something that maybe it's not exciting to a lot of people. But I love seeing your energy in it. In fact. You tell your students at Reformation Bible College, and you're you're well loved at Reformation Bible College, to start their study of eschatology not in Revelation, because that's like opening a novel at the final chapter.

Where should they start their study of eschatology? Start at Genesis one, start looking at what is God's purpose when He created the heavens and the earths, and when He created man. Because right there, you start to get an idea of what. If you can discern from Scripture why He created the heavens and the earths, and why He created humanity in the first place, then you get an idea of what His purpose. Why?

Why are we even here? And then when that gets, when that gets. Destroyed almost by the fall, the whole work of redemption is God working to accomplish His purpose for creation and for humanity.

So everything from Genesis three forward is God. Satan's not going to win. The serpent's not going to win. He's going to accomplish his goal for humanity and for creation, and that's the story of the rest of Scripture. That's why it's all eschatological.

It's all pointing forward to him accomplishing his goal.

So I think eschatology can sometimes. That's why I say don't start at Revelation, because if you if you start at Revelation, Revelation almost every paragraph is. Quoting or alluding to something in the Old Testament, so if you don't understand the Old Testament, you are not going to understand anything in Revelation. You have to to work your way forward towards that book. And but people, I did that.

I started with Revelation, and it ends up that's why people end up. Defining their eschatology in terms of millennial views, because that's the main debate. One of the main debates in that book is what what is John talking about in Revelation twenty, and wherever you land on that, okay, that's my eschatology. But you end up you can't even really interpret that chapter unless you've at least read Matthew forward, and you can't understand Matthew if you haven't read the Old Testament. If you think about how Matthew starts, the first thing he refers to is Abraham and David.

Well, who are they? You got to read. Old Testament, so we have to encourage people to to be whole Bible biblical theologians. Even with eschatology, it may be focused on the last day of the last things, but you can't understand the last day of the last things unless you understand the last things. There's there's just growing circles of context that are required to understand the the details.

Boy. There's so much there, but let me pause for a second. If you'd like to hear more content like this, please like and subscribe to the Renewing Your Mind YouTube channel, and feel free to leave a comment or question. As we, we'd love to hear from you.

So, when you speak to students, whether they be online or at RBC or anywhere else, what themes would you identify from Genesis to Revelation for them to look out for? I would start with humanity and with the kingdom theme, with the covenant theme, with the redemptive themes, all of those and more are threads that weave their way throughout the Old Testament. One of the way I've talked about this. In in classes, if you look at the first two chapters of Genesis, what's it all about? It's about the heavens and earth.

What are the last couple of chapters of Revelation about? The new heavens and new earth. They frame those chapters. Frame the entire Bible.

So you need to look at the the theme of creation and new creation because it goes from Genesis to Revelation. You need to look at the nature of humanity and of worship and of of sin and redemption and of God's presence with His people, and then note how those threads wind throughout the whole Scripture. I envision it almost like a big cable that holds up a bridge, and each strand in the cable is a major theme that starts in Genesis. But they wind around.

So in some books, this theme might be brought to the forefront, and this one might be in the background. Then in the next book, that theme might be brought to the forefront. But they're all intertwining and working their way all the way through Scripture until they find their consummation in the the final chapters in the final book of Scripture.

So you. Hmm. I've suggested to students: if you do a Bible reading every year, you read through the Bible. Pick one of those themes and trace it all the way through Scripture. And then the next year, when you do your through the Bible in a year reading plan, pick another theme and take notes on these and and start to see how they connect and tie together.

It is an incredibly enriching way to read the Bible. Is just tracing one pick one theme every time you go through and and and look how they tie together. Sure, that's a great. Suggestion.

So we know that all Scripture ultimately points to Christ. But how do we read the Old Testament? How do we see Jesus in the Old Testament without forcing Jesus into passages in arbitrary ways? How do we do that? We start with what Jesus Himself said on the road to Emmaus.

You know, He's He's saying all of this is about Me. All the the Old Testament was about Me. But I do think historically that has been misunderstood, and you've had allegorical hermeneutics. I I think if you're thinking in terms of eschatology and the broader sense. It's all about him because all of those themes are ultimately fulfilled in Christ.

The kingdom theme, the temple theme, the redemptive theme—every theme is ultimately pointing towards Christ. And then there's types of Christ throughout Scripture.

So every biblical book, if every biblical book is contributing to the development of those themes that start in Genesis to Revelation, given that they're all, they all ultimately come to a head in Christ. He is the yes and the. Amen. Of all of these promises, then every theme that every book talks about is pointing forward to Christ. It's it's not like we're looking for numeric symbols and little hidden secret gnostic signs or anything like that.

Not doing word searches in the Hebrew text where we circle and diagonal is not that tricky. It's it's he everything he says on the road to Emmaus. Everything in the Old Testament is about him. It's all pointing forward to him.

So look at the themes. How does the kingdom theme point forward to Christ? How does the temple theme, where the place where God is present with His people, could it be Jesus is Emmanuel? He's God with us. You know how does that relate to the temple theme?

He's King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He's the Son of David and the Son of Abraham. Those covenant themes and kingdom themes are all pointing forward to Him. It's all about Jesus. Boy, if a fraction of your passion is in this book, it's going to be a great read.

So you know that Legionnaire was founded in part, at least, as the bridge. Between Sunday school and seminary, how does this book fit for the a busy pastor or a ministry leader, and how does it fit into their life and their study? They would probably have to break it down. It's eight hundred pages long, so but each chapter is either dealing. It's dealing with the books of the Bible basically chronologically, which so it goes through Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch.

Book by book, and then the historical books, book by book, and then with the prophetic books, rather than the canonical order, I dealt with them in terms of chronological order.

So, eighth century BC, seventh century BCs, sixth century BC, and I did the same with the epistles of Paul. Tried to put them as best as possible in chronological order, because I'm wanting as much as possible to see how themes are developing with this. But I would say if you're doing a Bible through the year thing, while you're Genesis, maybe read chapter one. You know, don't don't try to take the whole thing in one big bite. You know, eat an elephant one bite at a time.

So, if there's one thing that you hope readers take away from this book, from age to age, what would it be? I think it's what getting back to what I was just saying that all of the Bible is telling us about God's accomplishment of God's goal, and He accomplishes His goal through the person and work of Jesus Christ.

So, all of it is, in one way or another, pointing to Jesus Christ and His work to save sinners like you and like me who had no hope apart from Him, and that's. Our own salvation is eschatological, because one of the Old Testament promises has to do with the salvation of sinners, and we're sinners. He saved us. We're little fulfillments of the eschatology of the Old Testament, and are part of another fulfillment of that, which is the the church, the body of Christ.

So, I. I'm hoping that it makes people excited about reading the Bible again, and because of how eschatology ties it all together and helps us see how these various books and themes all relate and how they all come together in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Well, thank you very much, Dr. Matheson, and I really appreciate it, and I look forward to folks, me getting this book and others getting this book and and growing in our spiritual walk as a result of it. And thank you for joining us today here. On Renewing Your Mind. I'm so glad we were able to welcome Dr.

Keith Matheson into the Renewing Your Mind Studio for this interview, and I want to thank you, our listeners, for joining us for this conversation. Dr. Matheson was recently appointed the R.C. Sprole Chair of Theology at Reformation Bible College, and he's played an important role at the school and at Lygonier for such a long time. He was there right at the beginning with Dr.

Sprole when RBC was launched, and he's helped maintain R.C.'s vision for RBC. As an institution that would train the next generation of reformers, and it's also well known on the RBC campus that not only is Dr. Matheson's RBC's resident systematic theologian, but he's also the resident Tolkien expert, and he even teaches a class here at Reformation Bible College on the great works of J.R.R. Tolkien. Are you interested in studying with Dr.

Matheson on campus at Reformation Bible College next fall?

Well, when you apply before December first, you can receive up to two thousand dollars off in tuition over four years. Just go to discover.reformationbiblecollege.org to start the application process today. Be sure to gather the whole family for Monday's episode, as we hear R.C. Sproul read his children's story, illustrating the truth of the Bible, The Night's Map. That's here, on Renewing Your Mind.