Hey, podcast listeners! Thanks for streaming today's podcast, From Pathway to Victory. Pathway to Victory is a nonprofit ministry featuring the Bible teaching of Dr. Robert Jeffress. Our mission is to pierce the darkness with the light of God's word through the most effective media available, like this podcast. To support Pathway to Victory, go to ptv.org slash podcast and click the donate button, or follow the link in our show notes. Now, here's today's podcast, From Pathway to Victory.
And I'm glad to study God's word with you every day on this Bible teaching program. On today's edition of Pathway to Victory. He was an award-winning legal editor for the Chicago Tribune newspaper. He was also an atheist. Yet through the evidence that he found for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, he not only became a strong believer in Jesus Christ, but so did millions of people who have read his best-selling books. Welcome to Pathway to Victory with author and pastor Dr. Robert Jeffress. Since the publication of his book, The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel has become a household name. When his wife Leslie came to faith in Christ, Lee set out to prove Christianity wrong.
But the evidence he discovered did exactly the opposite. Today on Pathway to Victory, Dr. Robert Jeffress sits down with Lee Strobel for a special Q&A session. First, a word from our Bible teacher.
Dr. Jeffress? Thanks, David, and welcome again to Pathway to Victory. If you received my regular letter sent to your home, then you already know about a brand new book I've written for Easter this year. And I'm hoping you'll be among those who reach out to request your copy of The Power of the Cross. My book features more than 90 pages of striking images from the Holy Land. And I want this illustrated guidebook to help you reflect on the last week of Jesus' ministry on earth and to elevate your celebration of Easter. When you give a generous gift to support the ministry of Pathway to Victory, I'll make sure that you receive my book called The Power of the Cross.
Be ready to jot down our contact information at the end of today's program. Not long ago, we had the privilege of hosting one of America's greatest defenders of the faith. Lee Strobel is an author and Christian apologist.
An apologist, as you likely know, is someone who gives clear and credible answers to tough questions. We invited Lee to take questions from our audience gathered at First Baptist Dallas. We had a fabulous time together. And afterward, I realized that I didn't want you to miss out on this conversation.
And so I set aside two programs, today and tomorrow, so that you could hear this dynamic exchange. Our moderator is one of the finest young Christian leaders I know, Dr. Ben LaVorn. Ben is executive pastor at First Baptist Dallas.
His tireless leadership at First Baptist Dallas is a great encouragement to me. So let's begin now as Dr. LaVorn poses the first question. As we kick off our discussion, I have a couple of questions just for the two of you. First, Lee, for you, you were an atheist. You sought to actually disprove the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the process you came to faith in Jesus Christ.
And you've shared your story with so many people. And as you do, I'm sure that you've heard questions that people are wrestling with, things that they view as barriers to them coming to the faith. So what are some of those things that have been the biggest questions in people's minds that you've encountered, and how would you answer them? Yeah, I talk to a lot of folks who have what I call spiritual sticking points, you know, a sticking point in their spiritual journey, some questions, some doubt, some hesitation. And the first thing I like to do is validate that and say it's okay to have questions. I think some Christians feel like, oh, people knew I had doubts or questions, they think I'm less spiritual than I want to appear.
And I think a lot of people are kind of spiritually curious, but they don't want to embarrass themselves by asking a dumb question if they think it's not going to be well received or whatever. And I point to John the Baptist, who, if anybody should have known the identity of Jesus, it was John the Baptist. And, but he gets arrested, he gets thrown in prison. Now he starts to have some hesitations. But what does he do? Does he wallow in that? No, he gets together some friends and say, go track Jesus down and ask him point blank, are you the one we've been waiting for?
We'd wait for somebody else, somebody else. So they go, they track Jesus down. And they say, Jesus, you know, John, well, he's freaking out. And he's arrested, he's got busted.
So would you just tell us, are you the one we've been waiting for? But here's my point. Jesus didn't get mad that John asked a question, had a hesitation, even a doubt.
He didn't get angry. He didn't say, how dare John have a temerity to ask a question like that? No, he said, look, go back to John and tell him what you have seen and heard, the blind received sight, the lame walk, those are leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised and the good news is preached to the poor.
In other words, go back, tell them about the evidence you've seen with your own eyes that convinces you that I am the one I claim to be. So they go back and they tell John. But this has not disqualified John from any role in the kingdom of God, because he dared to ask a question. It's after this incident that Jesus gets up and says, among those born of women, there's no one greater than John.
John, the guy who dared to ask a question. So the first thing I'd like to do is validate, it's good, I'm glad you're asking a question. If that is an authentic sticking point in your spiritual journey, nothing is more important than getting a resolution to that. That's great. You know, Pastor Lee spent the first part of his life apart from the faith. You have a very different background. You grew up in the church, you grew up in this church. You were taught the truths of scripture. You grew up under our pastor, W.A. Criswell, one of the greatest pastors in the nation, even the world. And so you had a firm foundation, but I know when you went off to college, you faced some significant challenges to your faith, challenges to the basic Christian doctrines, to the trustworthiness of scripture.
So what are some of those challenges that you faced and what was the evidence that you discovered that helped you to hold to your convictions? Yeah, and to be clear, it wasn't just a university, it was a so-called Christian university. And in one of the classes, early classes I had, the professor started talking, this was a religion class, talked about all the contradictions in the Bible. In the second class, he talked about why, regardless of what the Bible said, God didn't really tell Joshua to go in and destroy every living thing in Jericho.
That's just what Joshua imagined God had said to him, because he saw God as a bloodthirsty God. And the Bible is nothing more, I'll never forget him saying this, the Bible is nothing more than a collection of men's ideas about God. And it did such damage to me spiritually that I considered giving up my call to the ministry that I had.
Why would I want to spend the rest of my life teaching a book filled with errors? I almost turned my back on Christianity. And finally, I was under the influence of some great scholars and men who helped me understand I didn't have to commit spiritual suicide to become a Christian and believe in the Bible, and that there is really great evidence out there for the trustworthiness of the Bible. And, you know, there is a lot of evidence for the trustworthiness of the Scripture. I'd suggest people get the book, your book, The Case for Faith, Erwin Lutzer's book, Seven Reasons You Can Trust the Bible, my book, How Can I Know? So I would encourage those of you who have some doubts or questions, check out The Case for Faith or How Can I Know or Seven Reasons You Can Trust the Bible and you'll see there's solid evidence for the trustworthiness of the Bible.
The inerrancy or the trustworthiness of the Bible has been called the bedrock of all Christian faith and doctrine. But today we see so many who are quote deconstructing their faith. In fact, this is a new phenomenon, deconstruction. So tell us what is deconstruction and why is it so dangerous and what would you say to somebody who is deconstructing their faith?
Yeah, I think at the end of last year, I looked on Instagram and I found that there were 350,000 hashtag deconstruction things on Instagram. So this is a trend a bit. All it means is people questioning their faith. And so to ask questions, I said is fine, but when you begin to dismantle your belief system, not based on a lack of evidence, but based on often it's your own sexual sin that is driving it. I mean, I got to say it in most of the cases I've seen, it's people who are involved with immoral activity that they don't want to give up. And so they deconstruct their faith and get it to a place where it's okay. That, oh, God's okay with this.
After all, I can live with my girlfriend and not be married. It's really no problem. Well, yeah, it's a problem. So the danger is what we see is so many Christian young people are deconstructing to the point of atheism. So it's not a healthy, golly, I'd like to know why this is like, for instance, Dr. Jeffress said to say, why do I trust the Bible?
Why can't I trust the Bible? That's a great thing to investigate and to look into. But when we start deconstructing and getting down to being an atheist, because we want God on our terms, not on his terms, then I think it's a problem. Yeah, that's a great answer. I thought of the quote when you said that a person's morality determines their theology. They pick a theology that suits their morality. You know, one thing I'd add just as a pastor, for those of you who have parents and your children may be in that age where they are deconstructing, in one sense, don't panic. There's a normal process by which people have to personally embrace faith, and it's not just because their parents told them it was the truth. So if it's done in a healthy way, as a parent, pray for your children. Be sure they've got right material to look at, not just something that was seen on the internet and some of the books I mentioned would be a help, but also understand there's a spiritual war going for the soul of your child. Well, now we want to hear from you. We have staff members around the room with microphones, so if you have a question, just raise your hand and wave one of them down, and they'll come to you and give you the opportunity to ask it.
Sean, we'll go here in the middle. I know this question is asked a lot, but I can't help but think of all the hurt and suffering in the world, and so my question is simply this. With everything that's happening every day, if God is good, omniscient, all-powerful, all-knowing, why does He let these things happen? Yeah, that is the number one question that's asked by skeptics, or by anybody. I did a survey, a national survey a few years ago, and I asked the question, if you could ask God any one question, and you knew He'd give you an answer right now, what would you ask Him? And by a huge margin, the number one question was, well, if God is real, why is there suffering in the world? So, for instance, in my new book, I build up the case for the existence of God, but then I deal with this question and also the question, if God is real, why does He seem so hidden?
And so I have chapters responding to those issues. So it is a legitimate question, important question. I've changed the way I answer it, though, over the years. I used to, if I got in a conversation with someone and I said, hey, you know, if you could ask God any one question, knew He'd give you an answer right now, what would you ask? Well, I'd ask, why is God allowed suffering? So you say, okay, well, let me give you an answer. And I give him a little five-point sermon on why God allows suffering.
I don't do that anymore. Now I ask a follow-up question. So I'll say, if you could ask God any one question, what would it be? Why does God allow suffering?
Wow. Of all the potential questions in the universe, why did you ask that one? And then they say, because my wife was just diagnosed with cervical cancer, and I want to know, where's God in the middle of that? Or we lost a child in childbirth five years ago.
Where was God when that happened? Now we're getting to the real issue. Few people ask that question out of just intellectual curiosity. There's often a hurt there.
There's often struggle. And so they don't need me to give them a lecture. They need me to put my arm around their shoulder and to cry with them and empathize with them and pray for them. They need me to be Jesus to them. So I've kind of changed the way I think about it.
So I've kind of changed my approach a little bit to try to respond to the real humanness of that issue. Having said that, every worldview, there's only three possible worldviews. Atheism, there is no God. Pantheism, everything is God. Or theism, there is one God. And Christianity is a species of theism. Every worldview has to wrestle with this question. It's not unique to Christianity.
Everybody has to wrestle with it. And Christianity, I think, has the best possible answer, which is that, and I'll give you the short answer. I hate to give a 25-cent answer to a million-dollar question, but the short answer is God has existed from eternity past as the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, in perfect unity, in a relationship of perfect love. And so when God decided to create humankind, he wanted humankind to experience love, to love each other and to love God.
Well, the only way he can do that is to give us free will, because love always involves a choice. When our daughter, Allison, was little, you older folks will remember this, she had a doll called Chaddy Cathy. Remember Chaddy Cathy? And Chaddy Cathy had a string on her back, and you pull the string and let it go, and it would talk to you. So she had this doll, you pull the string and let it go, and the doll would say, I love you.
That was as good as technology was. So did that doll love my daughter? No. It had to say that. It was programmed to say that. It had no choice. Love always involves a choice, and so God had to give us free will to choose to love or not to love, and what have we done with it?
We've walked away from each other. We produce enough food on this planet to feed every man, woman, and child with 10,000 calories a day. Why are people starving? Because we don't care enough to feed the hungry. I can take my hand and pick up a gun and kill an innocent person, or I can take my hand and feed a hungry person, but it's a little disingenuous for me to pick up my, take my hand and pick up a gun and kill somebody and then say, God, why do you allow suffering in the world? Why do you allow, I'm it.
I'm the reason. So God did not, is not the author of evil and suffering, but he gave us the free will, and we have introduced it into our cosmos. Now, there's, and I have a whole chapter in my book on this if you're interested is God real, but God can and does use our suffering for our good.
He can and he does. He used it to draw people to the faith. I mean, when things are going great, how many times don't we pray? Ah, everything's going great. Oh, I forgot to pray. How many times, I mean, I remember I was on my deathbed in 2011 where a doctor looked at me and said, you're one step away from a coma, two steps away from dying. You were relieved I was praying at that moment when I thought I was about to die. You know, so difficulties bring us closer to God, but here's the thing I'd like to observe. Romans 8 28 says to every follower of Jesus, that if you're committed to him, if you're following him, that God will take whatever difficulty, struggle, suffering that we go through, and in this world or the next, he will draw good from it. And I used to doubt that because my wife Leslie has a incurable neuromuscular condition, she's in pain every single day. For the last 20 years, she's been in pain every day.
She'll be in pain every day for the rest of her life unless God does a miracle because it's an incurable condition. And you wonder, well, how can God possibly draw anything good from a lifetime of suffering? And then I thought, wait a minute. God took the worst thing that could ever happen in the universe, which is the death of the Son of God on a cross. And from that, he created the best thing that's ever happened in the universe, which is the opening of heaven to all who follow him. So if God can take the worst thing in the universe and turn it into the best thing in the universe, he can even redeem the suffering that Leslie has gone through, and in this world or the next.
And he's already used it in many powerful, positive ways in her life, but I can trust that if he can take the worst thing, turn it into the best thing, that he can deal with our struggles as well. You know, Lee, your comment reminds me of that article in a British newspaper. It was an essay titled, What is wrong with the world? And the humorous G.K. Chesterton wrote back a two-word reply, I am.
I mean, C.S. Lewis said, most of the ills of the world cannot be blamed on God. They can be blamed on men with guns, bayonets, and bombs. And, you know, I tell people, because I get asked this all the time on a news show when there's some national disaster worldwide, why does God allow it to happen?
And I think it's something you can share with people. The world we live in is not the way God created the world to be. There was no sickness. There was no death.
There was no separation. We are not living in the world that God created, but praise God, we're not living in the world that will one day be. There is coming a time when evil, sadness, and death will be forever eradicated, and that's the hope we have in Jesus, and that's our only hope. Amen. Praise God.
Barry in the back, in the mezzanine there. Thank you so much for this opportunity. James says, don't be double-minded when you pray. Jesus said, petition, petition, don't stop, keep asking, keep praying. How do you pray with faith, knowing that your will may not be God's? I mean, you want desperately for your child to be healed. You want desperately for that to be God's will, and it may not be. I mean, I have to trust that God knows things I don't know, that his wisdom far exceeds mine, that he understands things that I don't understand, that he knows the future in ways that I don't. So much as I pray for specific things, every time I want to say, I may be wrong.
This may be the worst. Somebody said one of the biggest curses we can experience is if God answers all our prayers. You know, think about that. Think about the prayers you've prayed in your life, and you go, oh man, I'm glad God didn't say yes to that one. So I believe he answers all of our prayers, but sometimes the answer is no.
For our own good. And so I just have to trust that. And that's faith. That's faith. You know, the prayer of faith that is mentioned in James 5, there's a lot of wrong teaching out there. A lot of people think to pray in faith means faith that God will do what I'm asking him to do. That's not faith.
That's presumption. Faith in praying is exactly what Jesus illustrated in the Garden of Gethsemane. He knelt down, he threw himself down, the Greek says, on the ground, and he cried out to God, God, if there is any other way, keep this experience, the cross, from me. Faith in praying means boldly asking for what's in your heart, maybe the healing of your child. But then, remember what he said, yet not my will, but your will be done. To pray in faith means to tell God boldly what you want him to do, ask, but then quietly rest in his answer, believing that's best. That is faith in praying. Jeff, I think we have one down front.
We can hear you. Go ahead and I'll repeat it. Good question. So he asked, what is their opinion on the shroud of Turin and the historical validity of it, the evidence for the resurrection? Yeah, I was just talking to a scholar a couple days ago who said, I now believe that the shroud is authentic. In the movie that they did on our life, called The Case for Christ, that came out in 2017, there's a scene in which the actor playing me comes face to face with the actual image from the shroud.
And I did that. There were photographs taken. There was one photographer who was allowed to do this, named Barry Schwartz, and he was on the team that investigated the shroud. And he created, I think, five life-size, exact duplicates of the shroud. So I've had the opportunity to be face to face with it.
That's a fascinating experience. I'm not totally convinced that it's authentic, but I'm pretty close. And the reason is, several years ago, they did an announcement and they said, no, no, we did a carbon-14 dating, and it turns out it dates back to the Middle Ages. So it's a fraud.
It's fraudulent. Well, what has come out since then is that the fabric that they took to test for carbon dating was a patch that was later added to it. That wasn't from the original shroud. It was a patch added in the Middle Ages. And yes, it accurately said that's from the Middle Ages, but that's not the age of the shroud itself. There is an indication that it does go back to the day of Jesus.
So there you go. I think in the next few years, more will come out as further investigation is done. Do you have any opinion on it, Dr. Jeffress? Color me a skeptic.
Yeah, a lot of people are, and I'm 25% skeptical, about 75% maybe, but we'll see what ultimately happens. Well, if you came to the program late today, let me clarify that you're listening to a special edition of Pathway to Victory. Our guest is author, apologist, and popular speaker, Lee Strobel, and the conversation was moderated by Dr. Ben LeVorn.
We're going to pick up the dialogue right here on tomorrow's edition of Pathway to Victory. The most important Christian holiday is coming at the end of this month. Resurrection Sunday, aka Easter, is March 31, 2024.
So let me ask you this question. Have you ever stopped to think about the significance of Easter? The credibility of our Christian faith rises and falls on the reality of the resurrection. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ are not mythical moments. Easter Sunday is not a metaphor for new life.
The empty tomb changed everything forever. And because this is true, I've decided to craft a travel journal for you that traces the final footsteps of Jesus during the last seven days of his life on earth. My book is called The Power of the Cross.
This is a keepsake that you'll enjoy for many years to come. And when you give a generous gift to support the ministry of Pathway to Victory, I'll see that a copy is sent to your home right away. When you respond today, my book will arrive at your home with a helpful booklet I've written for you called Three Days that Changed the World. This brochure illustrates the hour-by-hour account of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Now here's David with all the details.
Thanks, Dr. Jeffress. You know, when you invest in the ministry of Pathway to Victory by giving a generous gift, we'll say thanks by sending you The Power of the Cross, a 96-page coffee table style book that's filled with stunning pictures, beautiful illustrations, and Bible-based teaching from Dr. Robert Jeffress. Request The Power of the Cross when you call 866-999-2965 or go online to ptv.org. Now when you give $75 or more, you'll also receive an eight-message teaching series called Live from Israel. By the way, never before offered on Pathway to Victory. Dr. Jeffress preached these messages on location in Israel in the very places where biblical history unfolded.
And they come on both DVD video and MP3 format audio discs, so you can watch them with a small group Bible study or listen in your car. Again, call 866-999-2965 or visit our website. That's at ptv.org. And if you'd prefer to send your letter by mail, write to P.O. Box 223-609, Dallas, Texas, 75222.
Again, that's P.O. Box 223-609, Dallas, Texas, 75222. I'm David J. Mullins. The special Q&A session with Dr. Robert Jeffress and Lee Strobel continues next time. So be sure to join us Thursday for Pathway to Victory.
Pathway to Victory with Dr. Robert Jeffress comes from the pulpit of the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas. Imagine waking up to the sight of Alaska's majestic coastline or spotting wildlife from the deck of a luxurious cruise ship. Experience these unforgettable moments on the Pathway to Victory Cruise to Alaska with Dr. Robert Jeffress.
Relax with us in Alaska, and I guarantee you'll come home spiritually and physically refreshed. To book your spot on the 2024 Pathway to Victory Cruise to Alaska, go to ptv.org. You made it to the end of today's podcast from Pathway to Victory, and we're so glad you're here. Pathway to Victory relies on the generosity of loyal listeners like you to make this podcast possible. One of the most impactful ways you can give is by becoming a Pathway partner. Your monthly gift will empower Pathway to Victory to share the gospel of Jesus Christ and help others become rooted more firmly in his word. To become a Pathway partner, go to ptv.org slash podcast and click on the donate button or follow the link in our show notes. We hope you've been blessed by today's podcast from Pathway to Victory.
