Coming up on the Outlaw Lawyer, we'll talk about ex-Marine Daniel Penny.
He's in the news, obviously. Also, we've got listener questions, and folks, it's always about the law. The Outlaw Lawyer is coming up next. And now, Outlaw Lawyer.
Welcome in to the Outlaw Lawyers. Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer Law Firm. They're your hosts, along with Cassandra Nicholas, also an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer. Offices located are Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Varina, Gastonia, and Moorhead City.
Cassandra joins us from that Moorhead City office. Each and every week, we get into legal topics, but we also will give you an opportunity, if you have a legal question that you're facing, you need an answer, and you need it now, you can always call the firm, 800-659-1186. And leave your contact information. Briefly, what that call is about, an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. You can always email your questions to the show, questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. We'll answer those on a future program. We've got some listener questions coming up on today's program. So here we go.
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, prepare yourselves for an electrifying radio experience unlike any other. Welcome to the Outlaw Lawyer, where the legal ring comes alive with attorneys who are ready to rumble in the legal arena of North Carolina. Introducing the legal warriors who will leave you in awe and craving for justice, attorney Josh the Maverick Whitaker.
I like that name. Attorney Joe the Hamer Hamer. And attorney Cassandra the Sharpshooter Nicklaus. These legal gladiators are here to answer your burning legal questions and body slam any confusion that stands in their way. Get ready to witness a legal showdown that will have you on the edge of your seat as our hosts step into the ring armed with their knowledge, passion, and a burning desire for justice. They'll deliver the legal information you need like a power bomb and discuss the latest legal news items with the intensity of a steel cage match. So grab your legal pads and get ready to be knocked out by their legal prowess. From copyright disputes to personal injury cases, the Outlaw Lawyer is here to deliver legal information with the force of a pile driver. Ladies and gentlemen, let's get ready to be rowdy with the Outlaw Lawyer. It's time to unleash the legal fury and deliver justice right to your eardrums. Welcome to the ultimate legal showdown of North Carolina. Let's get it on.
All right, you can comment now. I'm ready to body slam confusion. That's what I wake up every day and I strive to do. That's our motto.
I see older people on the street and they look confused and it's just belly to belly suplex. If you listen regularly, you know that we use our good buddy Chat GBT to create an intro. For Morgan, he always does a fantastic job with them. This one was kind of on the fly, but did you know what the theme was there, Joseph? It sounded like it was in the style of WCW Nitro circa 1995. Sorry, I put in WCW Nitro late 90s in the style of their very famous ring announcer at the time. I don't even know if I can say his name.
No, you can't and don't because we had to make some edits because, you know, Chat gave us pretty much what he says and how he says it. So we had to make some edits, but I thought it came over well. You get what you asked for. I really like Cassandra Sharpshooter Nicholas. Who's your favorite professional wrestler, Cassandra, of all time?
There's no wrong answer. I really only know the name Ric Flair because that's a pretty good answer, man. You just say that you don't even do that. You just say, oh, it's Ric Flair.
And I'd be like, oh, yeah, no one would have even thought you didn't know. It's it's Ric Flair, duh. You know, Joseph here is we didn't we didn't program in like we didn't ask Chat GPT for these nicknames.
They came up automatically. But Joe, your nickname is the Hamer. That's true. The robot knows. The robot knows things.
So that's that's AI flooring us. Technically, it's the sledgeHamer. I didn't do I didn't come up with that. Now, wait a minute.
Now, now you ask Cassandra her favorite wrestler. So, Josh and Joe, you got it. You got to chime in. I've got one. Go ahead. I don't know, man.
I don't really have a favorite of anything. But if I had to say like the one who resonates the most with me because it was right around that time when I was a fresh 13 year old coming into coming into that stage of my life, boy, it'd be Stone Cold, man. Oh, really?
Easily. Well, I mean, if you were a 13 year old boy, when I was he was like the coolest guy on Earth at that time. I was a kid when Jesse Ventura was governor of Minnesota, and that was fun. I liked him. Yeah, yeah. He's a fun guy.
Those commercials. What are you talking about, Cassandra? Jesse Ventura was a wrestler. And yeah, I know he was.
He was just messing with you. If you ever get bored, it was great. If you ever get bored, look up his old his first the first time he ran his campaign commercials. They used wrestling figures. They had kids. And like, you know, like when they used to advertise like G.I. Joe's and you had the kids at the place that and they had wrestling figures and they were less. They did this kind of intro. They were like, Jesse Ventura will body slam special interest.
And they would they had little figures doing it. It was a lot of fun. Were you too old for Stone Cold? That was late. That was mid to late 90s.
I was in college. Yeah. OK. Yeah. I was I was always more of an Arne Anderson guy.
Yeah. Hard working. Stone Cold worked hard. He did.
He worked hard. Morgan, who you at? I've got to be Undertaker because he's got a lot of longevity.
Back back in the day, when I first got in the media business, I worked for a rock station in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. And we did the ring announcing. And he was he was a redheaded Viking. He was not the Undertaker yet. Right. And and but the Rock and Roll Express was there. Rick Flair was there, but they did it right there in the Myrtle Beach Convention Center.
So Undertaker going from really obscurity to superstardom. Well, I can talk about wrestling all day. But here on this show, we're supposed to talk about legal issues, legal news items, legal questions. So our goal here is always to sit down and kind of analyze things from an attorney perspective, these news items we pull out of the national news. These questions that we get from listeners, from folks that we consult with during the week. And so this week we had a couple of things that I want to talk about. Who knows what we'll actually talk about.
But the things that I want to talk about, you know, it's been a pretty big news story. Ex-Marine Daniel Penny had an encounter on the New York subway with what was his name? The departed name is Jordan. Yeah. So they had an encounter that resulted in Jordan Neely's death.
And subsequently, Daniel Penny was charged with manslaughter. And I've had a lot of people just in my normal day to day life ask me what what I think about this, because this is one of those things that's really divisive and certainly separates people. People have a very no matter how much they know about it, they have very clear opinions on it. So I think we spent some time talking about that. I like to talk about that kind of stuff and kind of take the divisiveness out of it and look at it from a more arbitrary objective standpoint. So we're going to talk about that. And we have some chat GPT generated questions and we have some real legal questions. So that is what I hope we get to today, Joseph. Yeah, I hope we just spend time together enjoying each other's company.
That's so nice. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. Also joining us, Cassandra Nicholas from the Moorhead City office, also an attorney at Whitaker and Hamer. If you've got a legal situation you are facing, you can always call the firm 800-659-1186. That'll get you in touch with Whitaker and Hamer. Leave your contact information briefly what the call is about. An attorney will be in touch. Again, that number 800-659-1186. You can always email your questions to the show. That's questions at the outlaw lawyer dot com.
We're back right after this. Welcome back in to the outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. They are your hosts, along with fellow attorney Cassandra Nicholas, also with Whitaker and Hamer offices, conveniently located.
Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia and Moorhead City. And Cassandra joins us from that Moorhead City office. The fellas, well, they're broadcasting from a place in Garner. Can we say it on the air, Josh? Yes, we can. Right. Shady Shady. We've got to say it. Yes. We're legally legally. We have to say our contract with Shady. That's right. That's right. So drafted by really good attorneys. So we've got Josh and Joe beaming in from Shady's and we've got Cassandra coming in from Moorhead City.
But the outlaw lawyer is always about legal discussion. Guys, where are we going next? Well, you know, I was going to tell you, Joseph, you know, on my drive here was a short drive. Yeah. Yeah.
So the drive to the bar is a short drive for me. But guess what I was listening to? That's just an overrated question, man.
All right. Can you give me a hint? Simpsons soundtrack of some kind. No, not today.
90s, 90s rap hip hop. Trap called Quest? Yeah, Trap called Quest.
We didn't plan that either. Yeah, that was that was that was pretty good, man. What do I win?
Nothing. I like the the the the dual excitement there. And look, the thing is, is we're sitting across from each other. We pointed each other. It was like a point in unison and then a yeah, it was genuine. We do that when we when we win our cases, too. It's like charades on the nose, on the nose.
And then we do a little a little dance where we like tap our feet together. Glad this is in the video. You should see it. The you know, I don't think I ever told you.
I told you guys. But, you know, Shadys, the building that Shadys is in was the first Garner Town Hall. It was the first Garner library. It was the first Garner courthouse. It used to be a courthouse. The bathrooms here used to be jail cells.
They still have bars on the windows. That's cool. So if you're ever down this way, I'll probably be here.
So you could just drop. That's really cool, man. Why? I would come here more if I knew those things. That's the first time I've heard any of those. Yeah.
So I've just been coming here because I like you and I was friendly, but I didn't know that it was like a cool, historic place. Yeah. Yeah.
You should get one of those little historic plaques for outside. We should. We should. Yeah.
We have one out there, but it doesn't talk about us. So talks about something else that I won't even I won't even I won't even mention talking about. Is it not a good thing? It's a bad thing.
It talks about how the town got started. Oh, that's not cool. That's not bad. That's pretty cool.
Towns are cool, man. Especially this one. So, you know, I thought we'd talk about Mr. Daniel Penny.
Right. So that's been in the news a lot. It will continue to be in the news. At the time we were talking, he's been arraigned and he's been charged with manslaughter. This is Alvin Bragg's district. So that's a prosecutor who most notably just charged Trump.
We talked about him a little bit when we talked about the Trump charges. And so this is this is a situation where we have Mr. Jordan Neely, who, depending on who you listen to. Well, I think everybody would agree was having some sort of mental health issue. So what do they say now? You can't say homeless suffering from homelessness. How do you say that now?
That's a thing. Yeah, I don't think I haven't been keeping up with the news. I don't think you can say somebody is homeless. I think you have to say they're suffering from homeless.
I'm reading this CNN article. It says homelessness. So I think we're OK, man.
I think we can I think we're clear on this one. And, you know, he had it looks like maybe he had some pending charges where he is unhoused. He's unhoused. And so you've got him clearly.
He's he's not doing well. Right. And he's being accused.
The bystanders here would say that he has was again. And this is kind of the stuff that's going to come out as we get closer. Threatening. Right.
Threatening some people who arrive in the subway. And Daniel Penny, from all accounts, is a retired an ex-Marine who was on there. And he subdued Mr. Neely with a chokehold. And then once he released it, Mr. Neely was transported to a hospital where he later passed away. I think everybody I think the autopsy determined the cause of death as well as a homicide. He was later charged after he talked to the police.
And so now he's charged with manslaughter. And I got to tell you, man, there's still a lot of facts that haven't come out. There's some video. Right. So we have some video of the thing that happened. But, man, people are are one way or the other on this, man. Like like all the facts are now. Right.
There's still stuff that we don't know. But people are all over the place on this. It's one of those ones, man.
One of those ones where it's 100 percent in on either side to the extreme. And then you got a few people, you got a few reasonable folks. Right. Like you who are like, we don't know the facts. We don't know everything.
Let's see where it goes. But for the most part, man, especially the reactions that you see online, it's extreme. Just as extreme one way as it is the other way. Mr. Sander himself recently spoke out and his statements are interesting, too, that he's mainly defending himself against like the divisive character attack, saying that it that it was something he did due to race. And yeah, the facts aren't all out, but that doesn't seem to be the case. And he's really like speaking out about that issue in particular. So he's not defending himself against like what he did.
Just like motive, essentially. I try to talk to people who are kind of all over the map. You know, I try to talk to, you know, just day to day where there's text conversation. You know, we have, you know, not attorneys in the office at any given time.
And we're all over the map as far as political affiliation and and kind of what drives us when we read the news and what kind of side we fall on. I think most attorneys, I think most attorneys, I think on our social media, we posted an article or an opinion piece from a New York civil rights attorney, which I thought was an interesting perspective because they spend their days and their words protecting African-Americans from mistreatment by the police in New York City. That's kind of what they what this one person did and for a living and came out and said, you know, this is, you know, with the facts that we have, this is going to be a tough prosecution for Mr. Bragg's office. You know, you've got someone here who, you know, was was was at the very least threatening, you know, some subway passengers with violence was subdued. Clearly, you don't have any intent. Right.
We talked about this before. First degree murder versus second degree murder versus manslaughter. You have no premeditation. Yeah. So clearly he has no intent.
He didn't enter that subway with the sole purpose to to murder Mr. Neely. And so what you're going to have to do is, you know, you're going to have to argue that he knowingly held the chokehold too long. Like you have to make all these arguments that aren't easy to make. I would imagine, you know, I you know, you can you can already tell where I'm coming from. Like, I think this is an uphill battle as a as a prosecutor.
I think if you're a defense attorney, you know, you're you're like ready to go on on something like this. Because I get I think I think Mr. Bragg is kind of overreached. I get that he wanted to do something.
He had New York City politicians calling for something to happen. He had a lot of people that wanted to see a charge here. Maybe a charge is is justified. But I don't know.
I don't know, Cassandra. I just I feel like this is another one where the actually proving this case, you know, charging is one thing. Getting a grand jury to charge.
But I just I don't unless something else comes out. I think that's where the difficulty for the defense is that I mean, it's even if it was it's hard to watch. And that's what a jury is going to have to do.
And that's I think that is the uphill battle. Just from overcoming the emotional perspective and putting it in the terms of are the requisite factors for murder met here for a jury to if it ends up in front of a jury. That's that's the struggle for the defense is overcoming watching someone die that way.
Yeah, 100 percent. I mean, it's terrible. It's a terrible thing to have to watch.
It's a terrible thing to happen to a person. And, you know, I think the defense's argument is like, Mr. You know, Mr. Penny didn't want this to happen. You know, he did not, you know, and I think that their argument is clear.
It's he this man was a threat and they were trying to it was an attempt to subdue and protect other people. But like you said, Cassandra, it's a great point. There's this video. Right. That's going to be very like it's an emotional thing.
Right. And it's and they are going to have to see that. But it's it's going to be interesting, man.
Any time you it's it's fascinating and maybe fascinating is not the right word. But any time you have this so this level of political and social pressure on an issue like this, it's just I feel like we've tended to see more recently. Like you said, there could have been a little bit of an overreach in terms of the charges brought. And it's almost like when you're when you're a public official, like it's there's so much pressure to do that. Right. Like it's just it's just a crazy thing. Politics ruin everything all the time.
Right. Like politics always you don't want politics. And that's part of the problem we're having kind of across the aisle.
U.S. Supreme Court, North Carolina Supreme Court, like politics in the judiciary. It's terrible. It's a terrible thing to happen.
Like you I don't know what the answer is now. Yeah, there should be no political. This should be their facts. Right. And we have we've got codified laws that exist and there are objective elements.
You know, and there's some subjective nature to it, but there's elements that exist outside of any kind of political leanings or spectrum. And and that's how it should be applied. Right. Like we should we should just plainly apply the law.
It should apply equally to every situation, regardless of any kind of political leaning or any kind of political spin that you could put on something. Yeah. So this is this is one again that, you know, we've talked about, you know, we're we're coming up. We're about to finish our second year doing this this show, which seems crazy to me.
But we're almost two years in and we've talked about a ton of stuff. You know, I was thinking the other day I was thinking about how often when we first got started, every show was about a COVID. Right. A COVID regulation or a COVID closed down. You know, the Shadys we opened right before Governor Cooper shut decided that bars were not, you know, the perfect time. Perfect time to open a bar.
We were open two months before Governor Cooper decided bars were not. What's the word? We're not essential. We were not essential. Yeah.
Feels pretty dang on essential to me right now. So in this place, the former courthouse. But I had forgot about that. There was a there's a case that we'll talk about later today. But there was a there was there's not really a case. There was something that was coming up before the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court. It was Title 42 that had to do with immigration. It was a COVID policy from the Trump era and the Supreme Court decided not to hear the challenge. And so there's a little two or three page order.
But in it, I can't remember the justice who wrote it. Now, off the top of my head, I'll have to take a look at that in the break, but went back and talked about how we should all remember the civil liberties that we lost during COVID. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we'll talk about it later. Yeah. I don't want to.
Hopefully we don't have to talk about COVID anymore, but we can. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, along with Cassandra Nicholas, all attorneys, obviously at Whitaker and Hamer. Josh and Joe are managing partners at the firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. I'm Morgan Patrick, consumer advocate. Want to remind you that Whitaker and Hamer, they have offices located almost everywhere.
Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuqua, Verina, Gastonia and Morehead City, where Cassandra is joining us from. If you've got a legal situation you're facing, if you've got questions you need answers to, you can always call Whitaker and Hamer. Eight hundred six five nine one one eight six.
That's eight hundred six five nine eleven eighty six. Leave your contact information briefly what the call is about and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. You can always email your questions to the show questions at the outlaw lawyer dot com.
We'll change the names to protect the innocent or maybe you're guilty. We'll answer the questions on a future program. That's all coming up.
We'll talk more about it. We've got listener questions on the other side. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, Whitaker and Hamer law firm where you can find a managing partners practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. Cassandra Nicholas joining us from the Morehead City office. Again, attorney with Whitaker and Hamer. Offices located Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia and as we mentioned before, Morehead City.
If you've got a legal situation you can always call the firm and get answers to your questions. Eight hundred six five nine eleven eighty six. That's eight hundred six five nine one one eight six. Leave your contact information briefly what the call is about and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch.
Again, the number eight hundred six five nine one one eight six. And you can always email your questions to the show. And that's questions at the outlaw lawyer dot com.
Josh. So, you know, we were talking about it before we went to the break. You know, the U.S. Supreme Court, there was a group of Republican attorney generals who had filed a motion with the Supreme Court regarding Title 42, which has been in the news a lot lately. Cassandra, I didn't tell you we were going to talk about this. Do you know what that is off the top of your head? Sort of.
All right. So Title 42 was a policy that allowed Border Patrol, you know, if they found folks across the border illegally because of covid and this this Title 42, they could release them back across the border. And so that ended. It was a covid area regulation. Biden's administration ended it and some Republican attorney generals on the state level were trying to get the Supreme Court to say it should still be a thing. And the Supreme Court denied it.
And in their denial, they kind of started talking about how covid era policies by by governors and the federal government to restrict freedoms. We are probably going to look back on it and see that it was probably one of the worst times for for civil liberty in our lifetimes anyway. Hopefully, hopefully that's as bad as it gets. Right.
Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully we remember because I had kind of forgotten. And then at the same time you're living in it. Right. Like you're living in it every day. It's hard to like step back and objectively. And every day, man, it's like we went further.
Like the further it went, the more accepted. That's almost scary, man. It's like you weren't revolting.
You weren't out in the streets. I revolted in small ways. Yeah.
Your own ways. Yeah. We did do some some micro revolts. Well, you know, there was a lot of you know, I said in the last segment, so we're sitting here at Shady's today and Shady's was a part of the open right. Literally like 90 days before Governor Cooper decided that everybody in the hospitality industry was not essential, which which even though I'm a lawyer first still kind of rode me the wrong way. And you think about all the restrictions there were and we were all scared.
Right. And that's that's what the justices say in this opinion. They talk about what some of the language in this executive officials across the country issued emergency decrees on a breathtaking scale. Governors and local leaders imposed lockdown orders, forcing people to remain in their homes. They shuttered businesses and schools, public and private. They closed churches even as they allowed casinos and other favored businesses to carry on. I don't remember those being open, like casinos and stuff. I feel like those at some point at least got shut down, too. We got a lot of casinos around here to comment on it personally. Yeah, I don't I don't remember.
Yeah, I do remember. Of course, we operate a law firm that was determined to be essential. So the law firm was opened and we didn't work from home. We were at the law firm meeting with people. You know, court was different for a while. Remember, the courthouse was closed for a little bit. Well, naturally, when you've got different places making different regulations, you know, there's going to be some inconsistencies in the application and how different governors apply it. And I'm sure there were some head scratchers, too. Right.
Like, I'm sure there's places where different industries got favorable treatment for no real good reason. But legal work is very important. It is.
It's very important. I don't want to undermine that. I remember how uncertain we were.
Right. Like, there was so much uncertainty for how you talked about being everyone was scared. You know, I guess that's one way to put it, but we didn't know what was going to happen.
Nobody, you know, we didn't know that we were going to. I remember waiting to find out if we were going to be deemed essential or if we were just going to have to just close it up and shut it, you know, just head home. We had all these special interest groups, these unions, these, you know, there was the North Carolina Bar Association, there was the Realtors Association. You know, there's people arguing and lobbying. We knew that some things were going to be deemed non-essential. And so everybody was lobbying like crazy to be essential. And a ton of bars and a ton of restaurants, you know, went out of business. The non-essential businesses, a lot of them failed. They haven't come back.
The hospitality industry has not truly recovered by any means. But it's just until I read that. So that's what I did. We, you know, we're coming up on our second year being over. Right. So I'm getting things lined up for our third year as a show. And I just remember me and Joe sitting across from each other in the studio.
All right. We got a new COVID. You know, every week, man, every week we got a new restriction. You know, is this legal?
Is this not legal? And it feels like it was so long ago. But that's what happens, right?
You just keep going and you forget stuff. But this the Supreme Court here is saying, you know, I imagine he was shaking his fist in the air and he's like, never forget, you know. But it was scary. And I know some of the decisions, you know, in retrospect could have been overkill based on what we now know from science and whatnot. But at that time, like it was for the protection of the citizenry. And that's that's what a society is, though, is like making those decisions and giving up certain rights to protect other rights, to protect each other, like without that social contract. The other option is just anarchy. Well, you know, he was saying we're only you know, you're only like one.
I don't know how he put it. I don't have it in front of me, but like one threat. Right. You're only like one threat away in a democracy.
You're only one threat away from being scared into some sort of, I don't know, dictatorship. Right. And you're only, you know, what they say, you're only like 12 hours without a meal from anarchy. Right. Those are the two sides. So if you go hungry long enough, it's anarchy.
And if you're if something happens where you're too scared. Everybody's willing to to kind of be in a kind of thorough democracy out the window. So I don't know, definitely interesting how how things have have changed in a very short amount of time.
Very, very short. Virginia at that time, I immediately went to work from home and stayed in my living room for nine months. So it was definitely a different perspective in the non-essential businesses on our street. Just one would close each month during that time period.
Yeah, a lot of them haven't reopened. I remember we went to we went to Vegas, we went to Tampa, we went to a lot of places. We did go to Vegas. I was there. That's right. I can vouch for that. We went we went a couple of places where you could live normally and people weren't like dying in the streets. You know, I remember that was like, but see, this is it's funny, man.
It's not funny. But like, it seems like there was a little hiccup there where that was that that was the case. And then we kind of backslid a little bit there. We did.
It was like, right. I think we caused that going to Vegas. I remember like the last day we were there, they're like, this is the epicenter of the world of COVID. I think I was in Vegas like a week or two before the two of you.
Actually, two years ago this weekend to get married by August. And it was the first weekend that they were open from COVID. So it was fun. I stopped being scared of COVID after Joe got it for like the 19th time.
Yeah. My body was a great incubator for all these new variants. I wasn't doing great that first time. That second time, I was not as bad. The third time. The first time was like real COVID. It wasn't my eighth time.
It was nothing. I was going to say for the record, Joe, how many times did you have COVID? Oh, we stopped counting, brother. We stopped counting. I know it didn't want any of this healthy body. I think the last time it kept coming back, though, it kept coming. I was like, I like it in here.
I think the last time the last time he had it, Joe actually gave COVID Joe. It wasn't very fun. And that first time really was like, you know, for everybody who really had nothing but mild cases. Great for you. I didn't have that first one, but the rest of them were pretty good. Pretty good.
It's fine. The Outlaw Liars, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer. And you're listening to again, The Outlaw Lawyer. They're managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer practicing attorneys here in North Carolina.
Cassandra Nicholas joining us from the Moorhead City office. They also have offices in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay-Varina and Gastonia. And if you have a legal situation, a question you need an answer to, you can always call Whitaker and Hamer, 800-659-1186. Leave your contact information briefly what the call is about and an attorney will be in touch. Again, the number 800-659-1186. And you can always email your questions to the show. Questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. Take a short break.
We'll be back right after this. The Outlaw Liars, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer. Managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm.
The power behind the program. They're practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. Joining them on the program, Cassandra Nicholas out of the Moorhead City office, also an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer. You can find Whitaker and Hamer in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay-Varina and Gastonia.
And as we mentioned, Moorhead City. If you've got a legal situation you're facing, you need answers to questions. You just don't know what's going on when it comes to the legal question, the legal side. You can always call the firm, 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186. And leave your contact information briefly what the call's about and an attorney will be in touch to answer those questions for you. And then you can also email the show questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. Josh, where are we going next? You know what? I wanted to talk about something that no attorney really wants to talk about once it's over. I want to talk about the bar exam. Yeah. I've been waiting for that, man.
I love that thing. You know, the bar exam, you know, for those of you who don't know, to become a lawyer the way it is now, you've got to get your four-year degree. And I will tell you, your four-year degree can be in anything, right? I think when I came out of high school, I just assumed I had to be pre-law if I was going to law school.
There's no such thing. Yeah, you don't have to do it. You can major in anything you want to. You do have to have a four-year degree. I would highly recommend, even if you were going to go to law school, you major in a science because that is a very unique breed of attorney. The ones that have underground chemistry, physics, biology. They got their science brains, man. Those are the powerful ones. Cassandra, what was your major in undergrad?
Political science, international business, and Spanish. Hey, that has the word science in it. That's kind of like that.
That's right. I didn't do all those. I did several. I did political science.
That was me. I was English, NC State's version of a journalism degree, but English and history. You do get your four-year degree, whatever it may be, in pre-med. You get pre-med and then go to law school.
But then you apply. You go to law school. You take your LSAT, I guess. A lot of people are getting – we're going to talk about the bar exam and how it's kind of being – maybe you can kind of look at it as being watered down.
That's kind of where we're going with this. But you take your LSAT. You get into your law school. Law school is three years. Three long years, man.
That is long. That was a part-time program in four long years. Wow.
Wow. But you do your three years, and then you spend – you get out, and then you're going to take the bar. Usually you're going to take the bar in the summer, right? You graduate.
I don't know. When do kids graduate? May? May, June, July, somewhere in there. And then you usually have a couple of months, and then usually you take the bar – depending on the state, North Carolina, it's usually – you take it in August and February.
So usually if you graduate, you're taking it in August. And it's kind of a – I mean it's a grueling test. Yeah. Yeah. Did you study for it? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I took – That was a joke, man. I know. It was very difficult.
I think everybody did. So it's a two-day test. What is it, the first day? This is how it used to be. I feel like I just graduated from law school the other – yesterday, but it was – It seems like a long time for me, man. It was 20-plus years ago that I graduated from law school.
Jeez. But yeah, you go in and then there's like you do a bunch of multiple choice. It's like essays in the – was it essays first then multiple choice or vice versa? I can't remember. I don't want to remember.
But you're in a big room. Like I had to go downtown. I think we took it in the – I call it Memorial Auditorium.
I don't know what it is now. I did mine. I want to say I did mine over at the fairgrounds maybe. So you're in a big room. I was at a table that I was at – they had like a normal like size table you'd fold out to use at church, right, for – And I was at one end and this was before you were allowed to have a computer, right? So we didn't have a computer. That's such an old-timey story. Yeah, I had to handwrite it. That's right. God, it sucked. And there was somebody else on the other side and you get to pick who you sat with at the table because you weren't really supposed to be talking anyway.
But I remember – They frown on that. I remember sitting down. The test tent started and I was just introducing myself to the young lady who was on the other side of the table. Hey, I'm John.
What are you here for? And man, she was mad at me for talking to her. She looked at me like I had just like – Ah, she was in her zone and took her out of her zone. Yeah, I was screwing her up. Ah, man. I hope that young lady has done well. But you sit there – I don't.
She sounds terrible. But yeah, you take the bar at a time. I think we were taking it with like 900 people and you're there for one day and then you go home. So you've studied, right? You've had all this time to study. I can't study that long, right?
You've had like two months. You've been out of school. Maybe you're studying the same things, right?
Over and over and over. You're just Hamering it in your brain. But the point is there's all these topics that they test on, right? And just like in elementary school, I think people just are finishing up their EOGs in elementary and middle and high school. But your teachers teach you because they know what's going to be on the test, right? They know that there's going to be an estates question and a family law question and there's going to be a real property question. I don't think my professors cared. Well, maybe not.
Those all seem new. I don't want to speak for all professors, but there are some professors who get tenured and yeah, they're going to teach what they're going to teach, I guess. But there's this big op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal a week or two ago. So in Alabama, Supreme Court Justice Jay Mitchell published an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal talking about how the National Conference of Bar Examiners, the NCBE, that's who helps decide what's going to be on your state's bar exam, are proposing a uniform bar exam where they make it shorter, right? It was two grueling days. I remember going home after the first day and just like, I think I just watched King of Queens for like eight hours.
You know, I just had to clear the brain and then going back the next day and taking it. But they're suggesting taking some topics out of it. And I think I saw family law being removed. Probation of states.
Yeah. And Justice Mitchell's argument was like, hey, most of these people, he's coming from Alabama. So he's like, most of the people taking this bar are going to go work in small towns, general practices where the local people need an attorney for family law and a state.
And they can do all those things, basically. And he was like, if you take these out of the test. And I think the thought is they're trying to make this test more fair and more inclusive. I think that's the stated goals. And that means different things to different people.
But the way he sees it is like you're moving these topics that are critical to folks who are going to be on the ground practicing in these small towns. And there's other ways you can learn, you know, areas of law. But in the law, you're not required to apprentice.
Right. I think if you're a plumber or you're an HVAC, you have to apprentice for a certain amount of time. It's not required by most states to be a lawyer. You pass your bar.
Bingo, bango. You're out there doing that. You're a lawyer. And the bar has rules. You're not supposed to take things you're not qualified to take. You know, you've got to do the requisite study. You're really not qualified to take anything at that point. Yeah. I got to tell you, when you come out of law school, you're not qualified to do a whole lot. Yeah. No, you're not, man.
You're not. So anyway, he laments that the bar exam, like it needs to be hard. It needs to be a gatekeeper. It needs to be something where you have to at least, you know, that's what my professors always told me. When you get out of law school, you need to know enough to know when you don't know enough. You keep making it easier.
That's how you end up in idiocracy. Right. That's right. People need to watch that movie every day. Yeah. I mean, like, we're going to remember COVID. We need to remember to not do that. Hey, you remember the feeling when you finished the bar exam?
I remember it being one of the best. I didn't care. I didn't matter. I didn't care if I passed. I didn't care because I was done with it. Yeah, you were free. I was done with it.
Yeah. I played a lot of NCAA college football. That was like one of the last years I came out with that game. Oh, man. What a time.
And I would study the same. Did you have kids then? No, I didn't have any kids. Oh, what a time. I like your kids a lot.
And I'm glad they're here. You didn't have any kids, did you? I had one. Yes.
In law school? Yeah. They tell you not to do that. Yeah.
They recommend against them. But whoopsie daisy. Cassandra, you did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't have any kids. Cassandra, you did.
Yeah, yeah. No kids, but I was working full-time while studying for the bar. So I just went to work the next day after the ball. I went to law school and they wouldn't let you work as your first year. They like, if they found, I don't know how they would have found out, but like that was the, the, on the street, they were like, if they find out you're working, you'll be in trouble. They didn't want you to work your first year, which made it hard to pay bills. Yep.
It did. You had to get out in those streets and hustle. But these practice areas are really like, the other side of this is they're very like state specific and the, the, the bar exam that all the states are doing now, the what's it called? Is it the NCBE or the uniform something or another? The uniform bar exam.
It's that uniform something or another. 36 states are using that now. So even in, they still include family law trusts in the states, but it's, it's a really like high level general version of them. So it's really not getting whether or not someone's competent to practice those practice areas in the state. They're getting barred in any way.
So I don't know how they deal with that. Well, I tell you, I'll tell you something that you can take to the bank. I am 46 years old, 46 years young, 46 years young. I will. I promise you this. If we're under no circumstance, will I ever take a test again in my life?
Ever again. There's nothing you can make me do. Right. There's no, there's no driving test, no pregnancy tests. I'm not taking any. I'm out. I have all tests for the rest of my life. Yeah.
So I'm guessing the bar exam has scarred you, scarred you for life. That's the last one, man. That's it. That's it. That's it. All right. We have one more segment on the Outlaw Liars.
We're going to be back here in a second. Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm. They are your hosts along with Cassandra Nicholas, also an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer.
She's out of the Moorhead city office. Also offices located in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, and Gastonia. If you've got a legal situation, a question you need answers to, you can always call the firm 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.
Leave your contact information briefly. What that call is about. An attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch and you can always email your questions to the show questions at the outlawlawyer.com. We're back to wrap it up right after this.
Welcome back into the final segment of the Outlaw Liars. Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, your host managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. Also joining us from the Moorhead city office, attorney Cassandra Nicholas also with Whitaker and Hamer. What is located elsewhere?
Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia, and as we mentioned, Moorhead city. I'm Morgan Patrick, consumer advocate. If you've got a legal situation you're facing, you need some answers to questions, you can always get in touch with Whitaker and Hamer.
Call 800-659-1186, leave your contact information briefly what the call is about and an attorney will be in touch. Again, the number 800-659-1186 and you can always email your questions to the show. We'll answer them on a future broadcast, questions at theoutlawlawyer.com and as Josh said earlier, bingo bango. Let's get into some more topics. Final segment guys.
You know, before we do that, Joseph, you know, hockey season for better or worse, hockey season is behind us. I am not watching the finals at this point. What are you watching? Oh man, I've been watching a lot of things, man.
Probably nothing that would interest you because it's not, none of it's the Simpsons. But I've been watching that yellow jackets, you've seen that? That's pretty, it's all right, man. It's pretty good. Nah, I haven't. I don't even know what it is.
I don't even know where to find it. High school girls soccer team playing crashes and they'd start cannibalizing each other. Yeah, true story, man. That's not a true story. It's based loosely off of like the, it's based loosely off of some true stories, but yeah, it's a real, that's a real thing. What was that soccer movie Will Ferrell was in?
Ah, Kicking and Screaming. Is it based off that? No one eats anyone else.
No one eats anyone in that one. Yeah, that's a true thing, man. And my buddy told me, he was like, it's pretty good. And I was like, I was like, what's it about? And he told me, he was like a high school girls soccer team. And I was like, well, I'm out brother.
But then I got in and I'm glad I did because it's pretty good. Cassandra, I know you watch hockey all the time. You can't stop watching the hockey.
But now that the hurricanes are not in it anymore, what are you watching? Succession. A lot of YouTube.
We started the Simpsons from episode one, season one. You converted somebody, man. That's the greatest thing I've ever heard. Somebody's kissing up. Somebody's kissing up. The first time she pulls out a Simpsons reference. I'll just have a tear in my eye. I'll just wipe it away.
Cassandra, that was beautiful. I bet the office, the office holiday party, the biggest gift's going to go to the, uh, the Simpsons. So you don't know that you guys are going to stop around season 38, season 12 through 15, depending on how old you are, because you can't, you can't watch like, you know, 22 through. You just got to pretend it's not, it doesn't exist after that point. 22 through 30 is just terrible.
There's a, I'm sure I've mentioned it many, many times. There's a podcast called, uh, worst episode ever. We worst episode ever.
And all they do is rate. They stopped watching season 11. So the classics die season 11.
That's it for classics. But then they were 11 through current. They rate the worst episode ever. And I don't think they start the series with a Christmas episode when they get someone's little helper in the first episode. I didn't know that because it was a Christmas special. Right. I mean, that's what it was. They started. Yeah.
I did not know that. I don't watch cartoons. I'm an adult. It's uh, you know, it's, uh, you, you won't be disappointed with seasons one through 11 seasons, 11 through 15, hit or misses, and then after 15, it's garbage. Nobody can watch that.
If you are disappointed, I would, I recommend just lying and saying you like it a lot. My youngest son, my youngest son is all in on the Simpsons right now, but he is, uh, you know, he knows how to turn on the Disney plus network and the Simpsons are all there, but he started watching the new ones. Like he started with like the current, oh, he started in the, oh man. Well then that means he's going to, he's going to go back to the old ones and be like, wow, this is actually, this show doesn't, it isn't terrible.
It's good. He watches a lot of the Simpsons movie that's in the rotation. Um, what are you watching?
You didn't say you asked us. Yeah. I've been watching a lot of, uh, Jeopardy man.
I've heard that's a pretty good one. What season are you on? I've been watching a lot of, I've been trying to, I have my middle boy is really into the NBA and I was growing up not so much as an adult son. Don't sports.
No, let's watch the Jeopardy. So I've been trying to watch the NBA playoffs and that's a, I don't really have a team. You know, I don't really have a dog in the fight and uh, I spent tough man, but I've been trying to, I've been trying real hard to watch the NBA. They're really good, man.
They're really good at basketball. That's something. Yeah. It's every one of them is, but it's, um, it is different than from what you grew up with.
You really got to, for sports, you really got to care for a team or you got to really hate a team. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. You gotta have that. It's hard to watch and just be like, I want a good game, right? Cause you gotta have some investment in it or you got to bet.
If you bet any game can be fun, maybe you should get addicted to gambling. That's that's on its way to passing. Right. I don't know, man.
I don't see why I shouldn't probably should. Um, but yeah, but we've been watching so much hockey, uh, I, I, if we just need football back, right? At least we had the XFL for... Football's coming. It's coming.
Chugga, chugga, chugga. Hey, they're bringing an NCAA football back. You know that the game? I heard that last year. It's real though.
This is verifiable. That's good. I mean, I guess you don't have to stand in line to buy the physical games anymore, but you could, we'll do that together. We'll do a live show from the, from the, it'll be just us two KB toys. Is that still a thing, man? That's a cool place.
No, it's not. I hit up every one of those when I, if I was in a mall and I saw a KB toy, I was going in there. It'll be like you, me and like a, another really old guy just standing there camping out. Like idiots. So just download.
They'd be like, Hey, we don't even have copies of this. What are you talking about? What's more than watching the diplomat enjoyed that series very, very good.
I've been told to session is a must, so I'm going to start on that. Yeah, it's, it's pretty good. Yeah. And you've seen that you ain't seeing that as far as hockey, obviously, you know, great season. And you know, going back in time, since we're well into the Stanley cup finals, that does not include the Carolina hurricanes, the, the four game sweep by the Panthers.
You got to, you know, bang your stick against the boards for them. I mean, they played really, really well. But I've always heard that, uh, I didn't know this cause I don't watch a lot of hockey, but I always heard that the, the, a lot of people consider the real winner of the hockey playoffs to be whoever loses the Eastern conference finals. That's what I've heard. And you got, you got to, you got to sleep on that and, and, you know, until, until the off season's over and we get back into, uh, uh, the next season.
But you know, you look at those four games, uh, and it could have gone either way in all four games. So they were close of a sweet, right. Right. Well, no, I mean, don't make me feel any better. No, I get it.
I get it. My daughter who works down in the state of Florida, uh, she went, uh, her boyfriend gave her a, a gift to game four and ended up being the elimination game. And that was a tough place to be. We've been to Tampa and watch the canes beat Tampa in overtime in their building.
That was great. I can't imagine a, uh, a series clinching win for the opposing team. When you're a fan of the visiting team, it was tough, but it was a great, it was a fantastic hockey year for the area.
So everybody should at least, you know, it's probably going to take some time for the wounds to, to heal up if they, if they ever do. But certainly the team is on the right track and can't help, but love Brenda Moore and what he's been able to do in his, his five seasons. And yeah, I think the future very, very bright. That was a beautiful speech. It was, it was. It was very, uh, Filling time, baby. Filling time.
I don't feel any better. Yeah. Yeah.
I could tell Josh was taking a knee and I jumped in. I, uh, well, we don't have college, well, we don't get college football till August. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Late August. It's late August, but it's coming. It's coming, man.
NFL will be September. It's coming. And then we'll hit that sweet spot where we've got a little bit of everything in college. Yeah.
We'll keep going college basketball I'll come out November. Yeah. We've got some, got some, got some British open in July.
That's going to be fun to watch until then we'll just be depressed us open in June, right around father's day. Yeah. Yeah. I guess The YouTube I watch, I've been watching a lot of good mythical morning. I've been meaning to ask Josh if he knew Rhett or link their contemporaries of yours from Andrew, but they're like national international YouTube stars now, Rhett and link. No, I have no idea who these, I have no idea what you're talking about. They're from Andrew and they are one of the biggest YouTube platform channels in the world. What exactly do they do on the channel?
They have a morning show every morning and they just do, um, it's like a silly little talk show. It's great. Okay. Highly suggest it.
I have to check that out. Yeah. Well, just tell me about it. I'm not going to do it, but you tell me about the, uh, well, you know, and then, you know, for those of you who listen to sports talk, OVUS and, uh, and Giglio have their, have their podcast. Now, I think we're, I think our firm's a sponsor of that podcast. I don't think I know, you know, that for a fact, and they're, they're good folks to listen to. Fantastic guys, man, the best in the biz. All right.
Well, we are fresh out of time. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whittaker and Joe Hamer managing partners, Whittaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. Again, the power behind the program is Whittaker and Hamer offices in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia and Morehead city, and Cassandra Nicholas, an attorney with Whittaker and Hamer joining us from that Morehead city office. I'm Morgan Patrick, consumer advocate. Another edition of the outlaw lawyers is in the books.
We will see you on the radio next week. Lawyer is hosted by an attorney licensed to practice law in North Carolina. Some of the guests appearing on the show may be licensed North Carolina attorneys. Discussion of the show is meant to be general in nature and in no way should the discussion be interpreted as legal advice. Legal advice can only be rendered once an attorney licensed in the state in which you live had the opportunity to discuss the facts of your case with you. The attorneys appearing on the show are speaking in generalities about the law in North Carolina and how these laws affect the average North Carolinian. If you have any questions about the content of the show, contact us directly.
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