NFL Coaching Contracts, Concussion Protocol, and Hog/Pig Law and California

Welcome in to the Outlaw Lawyer. This week on Outlaw Lawyer, Josh and Joe discussing the law and how it affects everything around us. And as always, here at the Outlaw Lawyer, our attorneys tackle all of the day's most urgent, burning legal questions, such as, why does Josh like reading NFL contracts? Should California be able to legislate how pork is produced in the U.S.?

And what is a team's liability for not following concussion protocol? Well, that and much, much more. All coming up on the Outlaw Lawyer. If you are facing a legal situation yourself, you've got questions, you can always contact Whitaker and Hamer by calling 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186. And leave your contact info, briefly what the call's about, and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch.

And you can always email your questions to the program, questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. Without further ado, let's bring in Josh and Joe. And guys, we've got a lot to talk about today. Yeah, Morgan, I've got a couple of things I want to get to today. Some sports-related items, you know, Cassandra is usually with us and she is down in our Moorhead City office today, so she wasn't available to record with us.

And Taylor's down in our Garner office today working, so she's not available to be with us. So it's just me and Joe. And when it's just me and Joe, the sports law creeps in. So, uh, Joseph, you ready to talk about some sports law today?

Hey man, I really am. That's uh, it's easy. It's easy to talk about for, for me. Cause you know, Josh, I enjoy the sports.

And so when, when we don't have, uh, you know, we've been spoiled having those very nice ladies on our show cause I can kind of sit back and, uh, not have to really do a whole lot of speaking, but when it's just me and you, man, that's, you don't have that option. No, that's a lot of, uh, it's a lot of Josh and Joseph when they're, when they're not with us. But, uh, um, I was going to mention, I don't know, uh, if our listeners saw it, but, uh, the firm, the law firm that, you know, me and Joe are managing partners over at Whitaker and Hamer, uh, the law firm made the Triangle Business Journal. Did you see that, Joseph? I did see that, man.

Um, I saw that and it brought me great, great pride and joy. Uh, the, the, the, the law firm, Whitaker and Hamer, uh, where, where me and Joe are, we, uh, we sold our old Clayton office and we moved to what, uh, I don't know, what would you call that? The Wagner house historically? Yeah. Um, man, I don't know what it was before. It was, I'm sure it's been many things. It's been around for a really long time.

I remember it as the Wagner just because that's what it was when I was, when I was coming up as a young boy in the town of Clayton, uh, eventually became the yellow house. And now it's, it's, it's just our office. That's what it is. So, uh, the Triangle Business Journal saw that they, they, they scour the public records for real estate transactions. So they saw that we were, we were moving. And so they did a nice writeup, uh, there.

So it was always happy to happy to see that. And then, uh, so hockey started too. That's the other, talking about sports law. And we, we usually, a lot of times we'll talk about sports to get our juices flowing as we get in the show, but hockey started, so that's exciting too.

Well, I just want to jump in guys. It seems like hockey just ended. Now we're back. It does seem that way, but then, but then you look at the actual amount of time that's passed since the season ended and it's, it was a while ago, man, but you're right.

It does seem like it just, we were just talking about it the other day. But, um, I think it's great, man. A lot of, a lot of optimism around our local Carolina hurricanes and for good reason. Well, I tell you a preseason hockey is like preseason football. It's really can't throw a lot of weight at it, but they do show they did last year. Obviously they made a great run, but that offensive prowess, man, I tell you, they have not missed a beat and they've picked up some nice veterans. I think the fan base very excited, uh, should be an interesting, at least beginning to the season.

We'll see how it goes. Yeah, they, well, they got the stadium, like those, the, what do they call the stadium game, the game in Carter Finley this year? The stadium series, right? Oh, that makes sense. And apparently selling tickets like crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. I logged in, uh, I logged in when they were, they had a season ticket holder login thing and I logged in and it was crazy. It was like stuff was in your like cart for like eight seconds and then it'd be gone, you know? So they, uh, I know they ran through a lot of tickets, but that's good. And then, um, I didn't get a chance to tell you guys, man, you know, I think I talked about it on the show. I went to farm aid. I told you guys that, right?

Yeah. We knew you were going, um, but how did it go? I think I missed that one, but I did know you were going just because I know you personally, and I cannot keep up with your schedule very closely. But, but you guys, you guys have never been to a farm mate, right? I'm not correct. I'm not no man.

And I can go ahead and tell you bold prediction. I don't think I'm making it to one either. You're going to go to your grave, not having gone to a farm aid.

Yeah. I think if I do go to my grave, not having gone to a farm aid, like, I don't think it's going to be one of my great life regrets. I think I'll be able to stomach that one. Well, look, man, farm aid is wonderful. And so this year's farm aid was in Raleigh. It was great. You know, I think we talked about is like the 11th or 12th time. Me and my wife have seen Willie Nelson.

He did really great, but I got two things I was going to tell you guys that I thought was really funny. The first thing is they have local, they try to get local farmers, local, local vendors in there to set up because you're there all day, right? You're there for like 12 hours so you can go get something to eat or something.

So they have vendors over there that normally wouldn't be there. Right. And so they had a bunch of barbecue folks. Right.

So local North Carolina barbecue. Yes. And those things were mobbed. Right.

So I got hungry at lunch and I went out and there was one I was going to go to because I never heard of it before. And all the local barbecue places were mobbed. Right. And so then there was this one tent barbecue. There was this one tent that had no line.

Right. It's barbecue. I was like, I guess I'll just try that, you know. And I went to do it and I went up and I was like, hey, I'll have, you know, a barbecue sandwich.

And they were like, all right, you want one barbecue sandwich, country ham or pork chop? I was like, it was confusing. And I was already there. I didn't want to insult anybody. So I just said, okay, I'll get one of each.

Right. But yeah, it was like, I guess it was supposed to be like a Texas barbecue type stand, but they didn't say that anywhere. And it was like country ham with barbecue sauce on white bread and a grilled pork chop with like barbecue sauce. And it was hard, man.

I was geared up for this homegrown barbecue and I figured out why they didn't have a line. But we heard word spread about that place. We were walking to the parking lot after it was over and there was this guy walking to his car beside of us and he was intoxicated.

Right. He'd been there all day and he was clearly intoxicated. But he was like yelling at somebody. I heard him yelling at something like his friend or something. He was telling him something. He was yelling at him and he was like, and then they gave me a pork chop. And he was like angry about the same thing I was angry about. So I think they got a lot of people that day. But that's what was it?

Was it was it any good? Because like that's that's total bait and switch, man. You're hanging out with barbecue saying you've got barbecue and you get up there and you don't have barbecue.

You have some facsimile there. I get that. But if you don't know it's barbecue, like if you came to me and you're not at a barbecue stand, you're like, hey, I'm going to give you this sandwich with country ham with barbecue sauce on it. That in a vacuum sounds decent, man. Like it sounds OK. Like if you don't have that barbecue expectation. So was it right. Was it terrible or was it decent? No, it wasn't good. I ate it. I ate it.

But it wasn't good. Did you eat them both fully? No, I split it with my wife because I was going to get two barbecue sandwiches, one for each of us. And I came back with that and she was very disappointed.

She probably thought you made up the whole thing. But the other thing about Farm Aid is Willie Nelson's 89 and he comes out with he's got his two boys there and they play with him and actually did really good. You know, he comes in and out. He's 89, right? You know, he's not going to get up. 89 years old, man.

That's insane. He's not going to get up and David Lee Roth it up and down the stage. You know, he's he's up there, but they come out. And again, I'm assuming you guys have never seen him, but if you've never seen him, he comes out with his his two sons and they sit there with him and he's got like a harmonica guy that's been with him forever. He's got two drummers.

One is like playing bongos, another percussion, and one just has like one drum. I don't know why he's set up that way, but he's got two drummers. And he's got a bass player. And then then he had this guy I'd never seen before. It was really old guy off on the side, just a really old guy. And the guy had one handheld bongo drum. And he said he was like apart from the band, like he was he was and I just watched him because I've never seen him before. I didn't know what he was going to do. And he just said over there and he played the one bongo. He held it, you know, in one arm and played it with one hand.

And I kept watching him like three, four songs in and they play this song and they they all turn around and look at this this guy and he pulls out a flute. Right. Oh, I'm sorry.

This this was very exciting for me. I don't know. Yeah. I'm with you, man.

I'm there. So this guy pulls out this flute and he goes to town on this flute. Right, man. He's just fluting it up. It's really he's doing a good job. But then he pulls out another flute and he goes double flute. Where is he pulling him out from? He's got him in his pockets, man. He goes double flute. It was amazing. I told you guys on top of another flute now going to town.

You have not told us that story. It's a double flute. He's got a flute in each side of his mouth and he's we got one hand on each flute and he's playing. And then he went back to his bongo. There was only one song that involved the double flute, but it was very good.

Farm Aid was very good. And I had had a chance to tell you guys that. So I respect that, man. I respect you being a guy that like growing up, you're like, I'm going to learn to play an instrument and you learn to play the bongos and then randomly like I'm also going to learn to play the flute. Like it just seems it seems like two random instrument choices, but good for him, man.

There was another guy that I really like. His name's Charlie Crockett, if you hadn't checked him out, checked him out, but he's kind of a throwback to like kind of an older style of country. But he was there and he's got a he's got a guy who plays like the piano and the organ in his band.

Right. But then like every other song, this guy whips out a trumpet. And so with one hand, he'll be playing his piano part and then he's got his other hand. He's got this trumpet and he was just playing.

But it's I have no musical talents. I'm always amazed when these guys get up there and can can do this. I'll be honest, man, you've you've sold me more on Farm Aid than I was sold before now. So there's like a bit before there was a zero percent chance that I ever attended Farm Aid.

Now it's up to well, at least two, three percent. I mean, to put it in sports terms, I mean, to play the piano with one hand and play the trumpet with the other at the same time. I would equate that to switch hitting in baseball, being able to go right or left in the majors. I mean, that's a big, big deal and kind of try to wrap your mind around that kind of musical skill. I mean, it isn't it's kind of awe inspiring, really.

I can't even rub my stomach and pat my head. So it's no earthly way I could do that. I've always I've always really enjoyed live music and different kinds of music.

And yeah, no, no musical ability whatsoever, though. So it's it's it's a tough pill to swallow. But anyway, we do have legal stuff. I feel like I have to tell that to people every every week. You know, we do have legal topics and we will talk about them. But this week I want to talk about a couple of things again. We want to get into some sports law. So I thought I thought it would be real interesting to talk about. You know, Matt Rule is out as the Carolina Panthers coach and to kind of talk about his contract. And then kind of talk about some other things that have to do with coach's contracts in the NFL and and things like that.

So we're going to we're going to spend some time on that. And then there's been a lot of stories. Joe, you brought this up.

There's been a lot of stories about the concussion protocol in the NFL and teams possibly violating that concussion protocol. So I figured we'd talk about that and some liability that that may be out there if you violate that. And and then lastly, we the Supreme Court's back in session.

Right. So the U.S. Supreme Court is back in session. They're hearing oral arguments on on cases. And they had one this week about California Prop 12. So that's a state initiative that is going to attempt to affect the way pork is produced in the whole country.

And so pork producers and some other folks don't like that. And so they are battling that out in the U.S. Supreme Court and the oral arguments were fascinating. So I figured we spent some time talking about that. But that is a tried and true real deal legal topics that we're going to talk about.

All right. Exciting stuff. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer Law Firm, your host for this program. Want to remind you, offices conveniently located in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia.

And now in Morehead City, they're practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina. If you have a legal situation you're facing and you've got questions and you want some answers, I have a phone number for you. That's 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact information briefly what the call's about. And an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be contacting you and have answers to your questions. You can also send questions to the show. Questions at theoutlawlawyer.com will answer those questions on a future program. We're back on the other side with more of the Outlaw Lawyer. The Outlaw Lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer Law Firm, and yes, playing radio host on the weekends and having some fun with it. Practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina. They have offices that are very conveniently located for you. They're in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia, Morehead City. They've got an office on the moon.

I kid, but no, they are growing. So if you have any legal situation that you are facing and you've got questions, you can always contact Whitaker and Hamer. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186. Leave your contact info briefly what the call's about and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. And you can always, always, always email your questions to the show and we'll answer them on a future program.

Questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. Josh, take it away. All right.

All right, Joseph. So that moon office would be a pretty sweet idea. What a view! Yeah, it'd be pretty. We need to work on that. It would get no business though, right?

The moon office would have no clients, I don't think. I'll still remote into the show. All right. Carolina Panthers hasn't been pretty, Joseph. You've been watching. It's been bad, man. Are you even a pant? Can we call you a Panthers fan, Josh?

I don't know. I know you're, I know your, your, your lovely wife is from Buffalo. So I know you, you have allegiance to the Bills, but I'm going to tell you, man, I think you need to clarify that. When I, when I was growing up, we didn't have the Panthers.

So I was raised pre-Panther. Redskins. Are you Redskins? I'm not a Redskins fan. I'm not a commander. I'm sorry. Yeah. Commanders.

I'm not a commanders fan at all. I think the show just got fined for saying the wrong word. Sorry. The, uh, I, uh, I grew up, I was a Howie Long guy, right? When I was growing up, I was on the defensive line. I was a Howie Long guy. Good call.

Did you wear, did you wear 75? Yeah. Yeah. I was a, I was a Tim Allen guy.

Yeah. You know, take my bowl. I was a big Bo Jackson guy. I was a Raiders guy as a kid. Just like some kids pick the Cowboys. Some kids pick the 49ers and in North Carolina, you just picked, right?

Cause we didn't have a team. You were legally allowed. That's fair. I will allow that for you. Yeah. We got the Panthers.

People of a certain age. We got the Panthers. I was all in man. Bianca Petuca, uh, Wesley Walls. Oh man.

I was all in on those teams. Uh, uh, Steve Berlin. You remember Steve Berlin? Yep. Yep. Do you? I've played golf with Steve Berlin.

Yes. I remember Steve Berlin, former cowboy, former cowboy. Steve Berlin has my favorite sports quote of all time.

Again, this has nothing to do what we're talking about, but Steve Berlin has my favorite quote of all time. It was, uh, we had a playoff game. Was it Green Bay? And he, he rushed for three yards and got us like one of our last touchdowns that we needed. I think we, I think we won that game if I remember correctly, but after the game, they were talking to him and I can't remember what the question was that prompted this response. But he said, look, you know, I'm the quarterback of this team. And if you need three yards, I'm going to get you three yards. And he was like, if you need five yards, I'm going to get you three yards.

That was my favorite. But anyway, big Panthers fan, uh, love the Panthers. It's just been, it's been hard to watch, but I do also root for the bills, which is a nice segue, but I still say that's not always been a, that's not always been a good thing. That's a nice fallback for you, Josh. But right now it's a good fallback. Yeah, it is.

It is. But it's, it's, I've tried to man. I tried to watch that last game. I just couldn't man and all, and all the 49ers fans that were there, you know, obviously the Panthers folks were selling their tickets and, uh, boy, you feel sorry for those guys.

And I can comment as someone who's, who's a little younger than you, Josh. And, uh, you know, I played football growing up from the, literally the youngest age possible, but, uh, was never a big NFL fan until like I got into like late middle school, early high school. And that was right, right when the Panthers started that, that really strong run where they ended up going to the, uh, the super bowl, tragically losing to Tom Brady and the Patriots. But, so that was right around the time that my NFL fandom really started. So I've always been just Panthers, like no secondary allegiance, strictly the Panthers, um, and had some really good times, man, had some really bad times and lately it's just been depressing, man. And that's the best way I can describe it.

Like the games, they're not even entertaining. There's no element of, it's just sad. It just, it just makes you sad. And it makes me sad that I can even allow a sport to affect me in that way. That like, you know, I'll, I'll try to sit there and be like, think about it as this isn't that important, right?

Like I shouldn't let this bother me at all, but in reality, that's, those are just words and it definitely, it still ends up bothering me, but it's just been a real, it's just been a real sad run, man. It has. And for a while now, you know, I got, I think the last time I really got excited, it was that game Cam Newton came back and it was like the one game they, did they win that game or did they lose that game? Yeah, they won that game. They won that game. He played well, they won that game.

And then it was like off a cliff, just completely, just. Yeah, we got the new owner, you know, that was, that was exciting. And he's not been the greatest, at least, you know, if you just look at what's reported in the news and then of course, Matt. Well, if you look at it, if you look at the record of the team, I mean, that's what, if you want to be completely objective about it, that's what you look at.

And yeah, not the, definitely not the greatest. But Matt, Matt rule, he got himself a good contract, you know, these coaching contracts, uh, you know, they're, they're for a lot of money and, uh, people like to type to like to look at them, but if you ever read one, they're not very exciting, right? These, these contracts are actually pretty simple contracts when you, when you break them down there for a lot of money. Uh, but you know, you, you think a contract for $40 million or whatever, 60 million or whatever, 62, 62 million back in 2020 for seven years. And that contract is not, I can't remember how many pages it is, but you think it would be like 800 pages, right. For something like, but it's not, it's a very short contract. And, um, you know, it, it had a lot of guaranteed money and, and I think in retrospect, he hasn't worked out and people look at it as a bad deal, but when he was coming out of college, he was a hot, he was a hot commodity.

And these coaches, um, they got to, they got to just like a player, you know, they got to cash in when they can cash in. Um, and he did. And, uh, he still owed quite a bit of money, right? That's how that's how guaranteed money works or it didn't work out. He was terminated for, you know, he was terminated and he still owed how much? $40 million. $40 million.

And so that's on the books that has to be paid. I think the hope is that he'll, you know, he's going to be a hot commodity as he goes back to the college ranks. Cause he was a very successful college coach. Um, so I think the hope is he, he gets paid a couple of million a year and that'll eat away into the, uh, to the money he's owed by the Panthers, but still it's very expensive mistake. Uh, for what Mr. Tepper there.

Yeah. And he's got money, man. He's, he's, uh, like extraordinarily rich. Um, so he's, he's got money. Uh, but at the same time, $834,000 a month is, is what, uh, that's what rule is, is owed currently. And like you said, if he, if he does get hired and presumably he will get hired, like you said, even though.

I mean, it's his, his run in the NFL with the Panthers has been pretty abysmal and it just has kind of looked at just, man, it's been bad. Now, do we know guys, do we know what happens if he gets hired? Say if he goes back to college, does he still get, um, He still, he gets a dollar for dollar credit against that buyout, but he still, there's going to be money over and above what he's owed that he's still going to pay. He's getting every bit of that 40 million.

Amazing. 400, 834,000 a month for the next 48 months is the buyout. That's gotta be a good feeling. You know, that's gotta be a good, you can completely blow it at your job. And again, there's several factors that go into that. We can't just put that all on his shoulders, but you know, it's kind of the buck stops somewhere. And it's gotta, it's the head coach is a great place to stop that buck. Right. And you can, you can do so poorly that you, you get terminated and you're still getting that 40 million. Like I can only imagine that's a, that's a pretty good, comfortable feeling for him.

Yeah. You know, these guys, the guys that, that do this, uh, you know, coach like this, I mean, this is a, you know, a full-time job and then some, you know, uh, NFL coach, I'm sure you're working. You know, 50, 60, 70 hours a week, you know, it's like being a CEO of a fortune 500 company, right? You're, you know, you're working nonstop. You're not putting your 40 hours in and then, and heading home and playing with the kids. You're working all the time. And, and that's why they get compensated like this. But, um, yeah, this one was real weird, you know, and it seemed like all the players, like he had his locker room.

It seemed like all the players liked him and, uh, man, they just couldn't, they couldn't put it together. But, but guys like this, you know, he's gonna, I think he'll be employed maybe this year, you know, definitely by next year, I think he'll be employed. He'll be somewhere else working all the time. Like it's hard, you know, uh, I was, I can't remember who I was talking to, but they were like, well, you know, he can just, you can just take it easy for a couple of years. Right. You know, he's coming in. It makes perfect sense why he would take it easy for a while. I don't think you guys look at it. I don't think these type of coaches look at it that way.

They're going to get back into it. But, uh, yeah, man, talking about negotiating a good deal. You know, everything we, you know, everything we, that's kind of one of the things we do here at the Outlaw Lawyer. We just kind of look at how the law plays into everything. And, you know, negotiation is a big part of law school. I took a class that was just negotiation strategies. And, uh, of course, for our clients, a lot of times we're working to settle civil matters or, you know, personal injury. We're working with insurance companies. So a lot of the law is just understanding your leverage, understanding your position.

Uh, and then there's, there's these negotiation strategies that have been out there for centuries that, that people will use. Um, but he knew what he was worth coming out of the college and he was a hot property and he, he struck the best deal he could, he could strike. And, uh, you know, it's hard to be mad at him now.

He came in, he, I mean, arguably he did the best he could. He wasn't, you know, not working and, um, now he gets the benefit of his bargain, you know, and that's, that's just how it works. I'm guessing David Tepper wasn't in that negotiations class with you. No, if he, if he, if he would have been, I'm trying to remember who taught that at, at good old camp, the Norman Adrian Wiggins School of Law at Campbell University.

Oh, fine institution. And you know, whereas where you can look at it from the rule side of things and be like, man, that's a fantastic deal. You're 62 million guaranteed as a coach with no NFL experience coming straight out of college.

Sure. Uh, fantastic for him. But then you look on the other side of the coin and especially now, and it, and it, you kind of scratch your head. Well, I think I was just going to jump in from the Panther side. I was going to jump in and say, you guys kind of mentioned that, you know, he was a hot property and there were other people very interested. So his agent sits down and he's got the bargaining chips in front of him. He knows, uh, he's got other interests. And so he can Hamer out that contract pretty much the way he wants it.

If said team in front of him is that eager to sign him. So, you know, it's on the Panthers and, you know, congratulate, you know, Matt rules agent. I mean, that guy, uh, really earned his money and now Matt rules is going to get paid. But the other part of this too is, and you guys know this, it's, it's all about team. I mean, who do you have in your coaching staff? I mean, how are you delegating authority? I mean, a head coaching position is a hood ornament. I mean, there are some coaches that can, you know, call plays defensively or offensively and kind of oversee things.

But for the most part, you know, you need two OCs that know their stuff and then let them fill out their staffs. And then you look like an absolute genius, but if you can't delegate, it's going to come back and hit you hard. And it happened here. And, uh, and it, but, but, but again, very, you know, it's hard to say misfortune. Like you don't want to take any joy in Matt rules misfortune, but this isn't really misfortune. The guy's getting paid $40 million, whether he does anything else again or not, but, uh, made me really sad, man.

I feel like I'm entitled to some of that money as a fan, maybe all of us, we could split some of it in the hardship that we've endured. I was going to say, and they say in the NFL that you're just, you know, you're one or two players away from, I mean, these guys are all very, very talented. On every single roster. That's not the problem. Yeah. So they're not that far away, but it just feels like they are. Yeah. I got a, I got a bold prediction.

I think they, they got two tough weeks, but I think they pull out one of these next two games. I think the team rallies around the, uh, yeah. I like Steve Wilkes. That's the interim head coach. And he's saying a lot of the right things. He was around during the good times for the Panthers. And when that culture was established and, you know, winning a lot of games and he's saying a lot of the right things, he's honestly, man, that's the, that's the other thing about Matt rule. If you paid attention, I never really thought he did a fantastic job handling the media.

A lot of times he kind of, especially towards the end, just kind of seemed confounded. Um, but, but, but Wilkes seems like the type of guy who, if nothing else, he's going to be able to get the team rallied for at least a short period of time. You know, you usually see that bounce back period after a firing, a lot of times there's that next game when there's a lot of like the teams inspired and then it kind of tails off. So I don't know, man, do you, do you, do you want them to succeed to some degree or do you want them to just tank for the future? That's the, that's the real question.

Always succeed, man. Oh yeah. I tend to agree with that. I tend to agree with that. Well, you know, one of the, one of the, one of the folks they, that people are speculating will be in play is, uh, is Sean Payton.

So right. The, the new Orleans saints, uh, coach who, who won a super bowl and, and was really competitive. You know, he's one of the names that have been mentioned with the job, but back to our legal contractual discussion, he still has contractual obligations to the, to the saints.

Yeah, that's going to be, um, you know, anybody that goes after him is going to have to compensate new Orleans and you know, that's, uh, that's up to the team that goes after him and he's pretty much got his pick. I mean, he's probably numero uno for, uh, teams out there looking for a guy that can kind of run the show and bring in his staff and, and probably experienced guy. And that's one of the things Tepper said, that's experience.

Super bowl. I mean, yeah, I mean, they, they want somebody that's been there, done that and had success. And he's definitely got that on his resume. So his contract and his agent, they're going to have a lot of fun.

Well, I'll add this. I know we're coming up against a break, Morgan, but I'll add this in if you ever get really, really bored, read NFL coaching contracts. Very, uh, very exciting stuff when you need to sleep. Yeah.

Very exciting stuff. Oh, okay. Well, when we come back, are we going to go concussion? Is that what we're going to talk about? I think so.

Okay. We're going to stay with the national football league. And again, the headlines just, you know, protecting the quarterback to a down in Miami, uh, obviously dealing with some serious issues. The players association is very upset at the league and vice versa.

I mean, it's just, it's just nasty. And we'll talk about that coming up next on the outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer are your hosts. You can find them at Whitaker and Hamer law firm.

They're the managing partners there. And they're practicing attorneys here in North Carolina offices conveniently located in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia. And now in Morehead city, if you've got a legal situation you're facing, you've got questions you need answers to, you can always call the firm Whitaker and Hamer 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186 and leave your contact information briefly with the questions about, and they will have an answer for you and give you a call back again. Questions at the outlaw lawyer.com.

You can send those to us and we'll answer them on a future program. We're back with more of the outlaw lawyer right after this. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer. You can find them at Whitaker and Hamer law firm. They're the managing partners and practicing attorneys here in North Carolina, Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia, and Morehead city, where you can find their offices very conveniently located for you. If you've got a situation you're facing legally and you've got questions, you can always contact Whitaker and Hamer 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact information and briefly what the call's about. An attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. And you can always email your questions to the show. We'll answer them on a future broadcast and we'll use different names to protect the innocent, right? But we'll answer those questions for you. The questions at the outlawlawyer.com is where you can send those.

Again, questions at the outlawlawyer.com. We're sticking to the NFL, Josh. And it's certainly, it's a big, big topic, protecting the quarterback concussions.

And I guess we'll start with Tua. Yeah. I saw this happen. You know, when, where were they? It was Miami in the Bills, right? It was the Miami Bills game. I mean, he had back to back. So yeah.

Yeah. So it was two, it was two situations, you know, he had the, he had the initial injury that looked alarming. If you, you know, on first glance, it looked alarming. They, they went through the standard concussion protocol.

He ultimately was cleared, came back in the game, finished it out. And then the very next week takes a, takes another hit and, uh, just goes down bad, man. Real bad. Yeah. I saw that. I saw the, I saw the replays.

It was, it was definitely nasty and definitely got his, his clock cleaned. And, and, uh, so, you know, NFL's got this concussion protocol that's put in place. Uh, they work with the players union on it.

And so there's this official and I haven't read it. I couldn't find it when I looked for it, but, um, you know, there's a concussion protocol. So if someone takes a hit, a certain kind of hit, certain things happen, it's supposed to trigger this protocol where, uh, you know, uh, they get looked at and, and, uh, you know, they've, it's been around for a while and it's kind of a confusing enigma to the average fan. Cause we, we don't know what they're, you know, we're not professionals.

We don't know what they're looking for. Um, but there was at least an argument that maybe it wasn't followed, uh, as it should have been with that first hit, I guess. Right.

Is that the argument? Well, no, they, so that I think initially there was concern, right? Because you see, like, again, if you're watching and we're just layman, we're not, we know we're attorneys, but we're not doctors and, uh, but anybody watching, even if you're not medically trained, like you could see.

He takes the hit, he stumbles, um, there's signs, like, you know, classic signs that he may have a head injury. Um, so that's the, anybody can see that. Right. And then they, they take them out.

They, they do whatever the testing that they generally would do. He's cleared. He goes back in, of course the next week occurs.

And then everybody, everybody looks back at that. Everybody looks back at the previous week and they're like, how is it possible that he got back in the game? Like, cause you know, these, the, with, with these traumatic brain injuries, there needs to be a certain amount of rest prior to reentering competition because they, they can be exacerbated if you don't take the time to recover. We still don't know a ton about, you know, we know more than we knew before, but we still don't know everything about these head injuries and how, how they're going to play out and how, how you're going to be affected later in life. So, um, lot of, a lot of moving pieces to this, but they actually, there was an investigation.

And if I'm not mistaken, that investigation determined that they actually followed the protocol correctly. There was no issue there, but they've since come out and, and modified the protocol and they've added in ataxia, which is basically like a loss of coordination. Uh, they've added that to one of the no-go symptoms where if, if that's exhibited, then it's basically that, that ends the question and it's, you're not going back into a game.

And now what happened this past, was that this past week when, uh, Garner's very own, uh, Nahim Heinz got, he took a bad hit and he was having trouble walking. Yeah. And that's what, that's going to be the effect of this.

You know, you've, you've seen it, you've seen it, it's kind of trickled down the effect. And so one, one effect is going to be, they're not going to be taking chances, right? So if there's even a remote question, you're probably going to see the players, players held out and coming back to the legal side of this, it's, it's for, it's really for liability purposes, right? Because you've got these established protocols and you're not necessarily looking at any kind of laws that are being broken, but you, you're looking at established protocols for which there can be, you know, civil liability in the event that those aren't followed. So you're going to see people being extra cautious, not just for the legal ramifications, but also for the, just the public perception.

Uh, I think you're going to see a whole lot less leniency because football players are tough by nature, right? Like they've done this their whole lives. Uh, they want to compete and, you know, they're going to try to get back in the game at all costs, if at all possible.

So it used to be someone takes a bad hit, they get up, you just ask them like, Hey, you good? They go back in because they want to keep playing. But I, but I think you're going to see it.

They're just not going to take chances. And beyond that, you've also seen recently, if you pay attention, uh, you look at like roughing the quarterback penalties, you look at like targeting calls, all of these, all of these changes are kind of trickling down to make the game a little less violent, a little more safe. And I think you're just going to see that effect kind of amplified and increase over time. And the game's really going to, you know, for better or for worse, some people would say for worse, because that's what they watch it for.

That's what they enjoy. But you're dealing with people's long-term health at the same time. Well, it was in this way, it has nothing to do with concussion protocol, but this week it was, I was watching the, uh, but the bucks, it was a bucks Falcons when the Falcons sacked Brady and it looked perfectly legitimate and they threw the flag.

Yeah, that was a couple of those. There was a couple of real head scratching calls where, you know, they're trying to prevent players, you know, they're trying to prevent like defensive lineman from landing on top of quarterbacks after a sack. But like by the very nature of tackling somebody, like how do you, it's, it's, it's one of those things that's just kind of, it's complicated the game and the process and understanding how to play it for, for everybody. But at the same time, the health and safety of players is a great concern. Well, and it's the health and safety of the number one position in football and that's quarterback. And there are very few men, you know, that can play that position.

So they have put these rules in place to try and protect them. The other one that you guys are referring to as Raiders chiefs, when Carr looked like it was going to, he was going to lose the ball. I think Chris Jones hit him, stripped the ball. Yeah. Stripped the ball and came down on him and they got the ball back, even though the chiefs recovered it, the Raiders got the ball back because they called that, that penalty that it was a excessive roughing on the quarterback when he didn't even have the football.

Yeah. Both of those penalties, both that, that penalty you're referring to, and then the, the Tom Brady penalty, both massively game-changing penalty calls and you know, the conspiracy theorists, and you could, could look at those and look to some strange agenda. But I think in reality, it's just, it's all a by-product of the concern for player safety and how difficult, you know, the rules have become to, to kind of enforce, especially in real time when you're dealing with some of the fastest, most athletic human beings on the planet. Like making those split-second decisions, I can't, I love to complain about referees and moan about it, but, but you really have to understand how difficult that's gotta be. Look, man, I refereed, uh, eight, nine year old, uh, I refereed an eight, nine year old basketball league.

It was a basketball league where you helped coach and then you had to take your turn and be a referee. Madness, man, I will never admit. You're not refereeing the same game, like your game. Are you?

No, no, no, no, no. You just took turns. So you'd coach, giving out technicals to the other team left and right, man. You'd, uh, you'd run out there and you'd, you'd ref another game where two other teams were playing and everybody just kind of helped out to run the league and save costs. But man, I tell you what man, eight, nine year old basketball was, was a rough one to referee. You wouldn't think so. You think that'd be me a little bit easier, but I don't, I always feel so bad for the refs, you know, and there's, there's a ref shortage right now, right in the high school and middle school ranks.

It's hard to get refs cause they take so much abuse, uh, from fans and things like that. But anyway, that's a, that's neither here nor there. That's just a, that's a hard gig.

That's all. How many technical files did you give out? And you're a nine year old ref. I gave out no technical files, but the game I was, I was reffing. It was eight, nine year old basketball games are usually like close to what, like 16, 12.

You know, you're not, uh, they're not real barn burners. You send any parents or other coaches to the car and say, cool off. I did coach one. I could, I ref one game where I wasn't in the lead ref. There was two of us.

I wasn't lead rep, but we did have to ask somebody to leave. Uh, cause it was just, uh, people were just really invested. People care about their kids, uh, sports, man. We had, um, w w this, this one was a close game. And so somebody had like the last possession, if they scored, they would win. If not, it would go to the little two minute overtime or whatever they have. But, uh, uh, we had someone who stepped over the line inbounding the ball before we had, we had whistled to be in play yet. So we reset him and gave him a chance to inbound it. And a parent just lost their minds.

He thought it should have been a turnover. And I, I remember thinking that that was years ago. That was probably eight years ago now.

But, um, it's tough to do, man, uh, NFL or, or, or directly, you know, that ref spot's a tough one to be in. Well, getting back to the, to a disco, you know, specifically discussing to a, you know, the fact that they did this investigation, they basically determined that they did follow the protocol. He did stumble, but I think he himself actually said that he reaggravated a back injury. And that's the reason why he stumbled. And if you go and you look at it, like, again, I think on first glance, it looks like clearly like he had some head trauma.

And that's the reason why. But, but again, you're talking a lot of the diagnosis that you have to do comes from communicating with the individual that's been injured. And you got to rely on the information you're getting from that individual. So it's a tough thing to do for doctors as well. Well, players association and the league have agreed to amend the protocol. So it is going to change if not already changed. So they're looking at that right now. It's a very serious situation.

Obviously you're dealing with, you know, the future of this particular football player, but football players that follow him. So they, they really need to get this dialed in, but also you have to remember too. And you guys have mentioned it, it's a gladiator sport.

There are large men running at high speeds. You're going to have concussions. And so you can only protect them so much, but they're going to try to take a look at the protocol and change it up a little bit.

Yeah. And basically the change, just to summarize, you know, we, we mentioned it's, it's ataxia, which is kind of like a loss of, of motor function or stumbling or loss of balance. And, and the previous protocol, it basically stated that you, if, if you had that, but they could determine that there was some kind of a orthopedic reason. So like something structural, some kind of other injury, they'd let you come back in.

And now they've removed that exception where if you stumble, if you have any kind of difficulty moving, that's it. They're not going to, they're not going to take chances. And again, coming back to the circling back around to the legal piece of this, you know, they're, they're going to protect themselves from, from future liability any way that they can. And then also they're going to try to protect the player's safety. And so you're going to, I think you're just going to see a heightening of these requirements over time, just especially as we learn more about these traumatic brain injuries and we get more information.

I think you're just going to see those effects just amplified again. The outlaw lawyers, Josh Whitaker, Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm, practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. It's always legalese. We talk about it here on the program.

We also have some fun and sometimes get into the sports discussion, but very serious about what's going on in the National Football League right now with concussions. We are going to come back on the other side. We want to remind you that if you have a legal situation you're facing and you've got questions, you can always get answers by calling Whitaker and Hamer 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

Leave your contact information briefly what that call's about and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. And you can email your questions to the program. We'll answer those on future shows. Questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. When we come back, this show is going to the pigs.

That's right. We're going to talk some hogs coming up next on the Outlaw Lawyer. Welcome back into the Outlaw Liars, your host, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer law firm offices conveniently located in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia, and now in Morehead City. And again, Josh and Joe, pricing attorneys here in North Carolina. I'm Morgan Patrick, consumer advocate.

We get into the topics each and every week. If you've got a legal situation, you've got questions about what you're going through and you need some advice, I've got a phone number for you. You can get in touch with Whitaker and Hamer, 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186 and leave your contact info briefly what the call's about and an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch. And you can always email your question to the program and we'll answer that on a future show. It's questions at theoutlawlawyer.com. Josh and Joe.

All right, Joseph. So the U.S. Supreme Court is back in session, right? So last year's session, we talked about Dodd.

We talked about all these cases a lot, but it was a very active Supreme Court session, a very controversial U.S. Supreme Court session. But the off season's over. It's kind of like hockey, right? I never noticed that.

I was gonna say it's big for you, man. Like me and Morgan look at the start of like the NFL NBA seasons and we get super geeked out and you're looking at the Supreme Court's back and forth. I didn't realize how the off seasons mirror each other so closely. I've never noticed that before, but they're back.

They've been back. I think the session started last week, but what they do is, you know, they just have all these things lined up. We already know what cases they're going to hear. Oral arguments get scheduled.

The schedule's been released already. But they're being watched very. This is I can't I can't remember the last time, like national media. You know, everybody's kind of dialed in to see what the court will do now that there's a conservative majority.

And again, we try to stay apolitical. So whether you're conservative or not, you know, we just try to talk about the long ones being discussed, but it's hard not to know that there's a conservative majority and that certain things are being overturned. And and the court is looking at things in a different way than it has in the past because there's been a liberal majority since 60.

I don't know. I don't know how far back it goes, but the court is generally has a liberal majority. And last year was the first year where that was not the case. And so things are operating a little bit differently. But there is a case.

The most the most interesting thing I have seen so far is there's a case I didn't know much about this case until I was kind of listening into the oral arguments. But California had a prop. I think you called it Prop 12, but they had something that was voted on, you know, California by itself. What do they say if you take California out of the United States and make it its own country? It's the sixth largest economy in the world. Something like that.

Yeah, it's big, man. But, you know, they they have a progressive, right? Their state house, their state legislators, very legislature is very progressive. And they make a lot of like what they just said.

Everything's got to be an electric car by like 2035. And, you know, they make they make these these laws and the rest of the country kind of has to, you know, if you make cars and you want to sell cars in the U.S., then the California market is is arguably one of your most important markets. And you kind of have to meet that. You know, we represent a lot of folks who who sell things or sell services or sell goods countrywide. So even though I practice in North Carolina, I'm a North Carolina attorney. I'm even aware of some things that the state of California passes because it affects people, companies in North Carolina who are selling things, you know, countrywide.

So it's something we've seen a lot. And so California has adopted our Prop 12, which is basically I won't go into the details, but it changes how they only want to sell pork in their state. Pork products in their state where the pigs, the hogs, they have been raised in a certain arguably more humane way.

Right. So the pork industry has standards right now on how big a cage has to be for a breeding pig. And California wants that to be bigger, larger.

They want to change these standards. And so they know that their economy is large and they're in this position where if we pass it, a lot of pork producers are just going to have to do it, even though it's not a federal law, even though every other state might disagree with us. So they pass this Prop 12 where you can only sell pork in the state of California is raised a certain way. And so pork producers, other interested parties are challenging that, saying that California as a state should not be able to affect kind of interstate commerce.

Right. The feds can for sure, but can a state, no matter how big, pass something that's going to affect the economy of other states. And so that was, it was actually very, it was, it was very interesting. There were some other laws they kind of put up there.

It seemed like the justices were kind of leaning towards California can't do this. There's, you know, there's, we talk about tests, right? We got different tests for different things. When judges have a certain fact pattern, they have to apply certain tests. It's almost like mathematics, Joseph. Right.

You want to figure out the circumference of a circle, then you've got an equation. And so we have these lawyers and judges have these tests. But I don't know if you, have you ever gone camping in New York? You ever go camping in New York ever?

No, but I've eaten a lot of pork. If you camp in New York. That's what I thought you were talking about. That makes you an expert.

I've been waiting for my moment. Yeah. I don't know anything about this law, but I know something about eating pork. So if you go camping in New York, you're not allowed to bring in firewood from outside the state because they don't want you bringing in any pest or, you know, if it's been treated with certain chemicals that are illegal in New York.

So that's a big deal. They'll ask you where your firewood came from. Firewood's more expensive in New York because they know that you can't bring it from out of state. And so the California folks were comparing their law to laws like that. There's all kinds of laws.

Like I'm not allowed. You're not allowed to sell real fireworks in North Carolina. Right. And that affects commerce.

Right. That affects people who are trying to sell fireworks. They can't sell.

They have to make special crappy fireworks for North Carolina. So they were bringing up all these laws that affect commerce and trying to compare this one. And we talk about sometimes we talk about how laws are burdensome and less less restrictive means less restrictive means. And so, you know, the justices were saying, well, they can just label pork that's not raised the way they want to.

And then California consumers will have a choice. And anyway, but the justices really and this is this is a case that doesn't divide, you know, the liberal wing of the court, the conservative wing of the court. This is something that doesn't divide them that way. It kind of divides them a different way. So it was interesting to see Justice Kagan and Justice Roberts and Justice Barrett kind of asking the same questions. Kind of seems like they're on the side.

The court was leaning against striking this down like this wouldn't be enforceable. But anyway, yeah, I enjoy pork, man, as I told you at my farm aid when I didn't I guess I got a pork chop, but it wasn't the pork I was after. Oh, I tell you, it's always an interesting discussion. Josh Whitaker, Joe Hamer, managing partners, Whitaker and Hamer Law Firm, host of the Outlaw Lawyers.

We have a short segment coming up on the other side. We'll tell you more about the firm. Again, the guys are practicing attorneys here in North Carolina offices in Raleigh, Garner, Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Verina, Gastonia, and now in Moorhead City. And if you have a legal situation you're facing, you got questions, I'll give you a number. 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186. Get in touch with Whitaker and Hamer. Leave your contact information, briefly what the call's about, and an attorney will be in touch.

And you can email your questions to the show. Questions at the OutlawLawyer.com. We're back to wrap it up on the other side.

Welcome back in to the Outlaw Lawyer. We are with you just for a few minutes. Josh and Joe, take it away.

Joseph. Yes. Name our office locations for me. Where are... Man, pop quiz. I always get bad on these.

Clayton, Garner, Fuquay, Verina, Goldsboro, Raleigh, Gastonia, Moorhead City. Yes. Is that it? I feel like you missed one.

The moon. You know, we've been doing this for a while now. We're coming up on our 20-year anniversary as a firm. Got a lot of attorneys that have a lot of different practice areas. If you have something going on, we'd love to be your law firm. We'd love to be able to help you.

Give us a call. There are some things we don't practice, right? So if it's something we can't help you with, we'll let you know we can't help you with it. And we can give you some suggestions of people who can. That's the one thing we do. We know a lot of lawyers, even if they're affiliated with the firm. But we love being able to help people. We love being our listeners legal resource. And so we always try to be very transparent when we can help what things cost.

You know, we talk about on the show what attorneys charge when they charge things. So we like to be a sounding board. And we really, again, one of the reasons we do the show is to be helpful. We just talked about a lot of sports law today. But a lot of times we try to be helpful.

But we're here for you if we can be of help to you. The Outlaw Liars, Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer. Whitaker and Hamer law firm, managing partners there, practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina. Again, if you need to get in touch, if you've got questions about a situation you're in, call the firm 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186.

And leave your contact information briefly what the call's about. An attorney will be in touch. You can always email your questions to the show. Questions at TheOutlawLawyer.com. Another edition of The Outlaw Lawyer in the books. We'll see you on the radio next week. The Outlaw Lawyer is hosted by an attorney licensed to practice law in North Carolina. Some of the guests appearing on the show may be licensed North Carolina attorneys.