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Happy Thanksgiving, The Outlaw Lawyers talk Rittenhouse, Arbery, and Ghislaine Maxwell Trials

Outlaw Lawyer / Josh Whitaker & Joe Hamer
The Truth Network Radio
November 26, 2021 5:00 pm

Happy Thanksgiving, The Outlaw Lawyers talk Rittenhouse, Arbery, and Ghislaine Maxwell Trials

Outlaw Lawyer / Josh Whitaker & Joe Hamer

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November 26, 2021 5:00 pm

The Outlaw Lawyers have 3 big cases from the headlines to update. Rittenhouse, Ahmaud Arbery, and Ghislaine Maxwell Trials are front and center. Holiday week and yes the discussion turns to favorite sides and K&W Cafeteria. Listener question concerning bail answered as well.

If you have any legal questions of your own and would like to speak with Whitaker and Hamer please call 800-659-1186.

Legal, Trial, Bail, Law, 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Today on outlaw lawyer lots of action we got Rittenhouse the Harvard trial. The Maxwell trial and we announce the first part of our legal now lawyer on your hosts are Josh Whitaker and Joe Haber managing partner Zwicker and Hamer law firm six binder six. To get offices in Raleigh garnered quite Goldsboro, Fuquay Marina and Gastonia. They are practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina. We talk legalese each and every week the hot topics I Morgan Patrick consumer advocate referee between these two.

We address the serious topics that we like to have a little fun with it if you got any legal questions of your own, you got something you need answered. Here's the number to call 800-659-1186 at 800-659-1186. You can also email questions if you if you have any, and we can use those on upcoming shows leader information and we will obviously get in touch with you but also possibly use your situation on the air, leave your name out of it. Of course questions@theoutlawallyour.com or guys welcome in. Hope you had a great week Morgan.

It was a good week it was. It was a long week and were up against the Thanksgiving holiday, so it's crazy to think that 2021 is is almost over. Well there be so many people driving around trying to get their shopping done.

I will not be one of them.

I'll be listening to the show probably with my feet kicked up that kind of thing, but there really a lot of people out there. You know, out and about doing their shopping.

So we got it we got a pretty captive audience. They're all shopping.

We need to kinda calm their nerves talk about some of the hot topics that are out there.

Boy I tell you got some we do, we do not done Joseph you you not travel neither your disdain around town you abstain here, man. I'm very lucky to I guess it depends on how you look at it. I'm very lucky my family all is like walking distance from my house and fortunately for us we all get along. We don't have any that we don't have any black sheep's that that we don't really work well with see everybody's close we all just stay very local and it makes for a very stress-free relaxing Thanksgiving man like I feel bad for folks I have to do a lot of traveling as opposed to just being able to sit on the couch, eat a lot of food, pass out, and that's Ramana.

Do eat a lot of food and pass out whets that's what they skip is always been as we never really had to travel very far and counted so relaxing as to how I'm not a big holiday got set a birthdate on my birthday's not a big I don't like to have to buy presents for people I don't like people have to buy presents for me things humans like a perfect holiday because you said you watch football again.

Yeah I don't have to travel.

I can imagine having to travel to travel like a like a weird Tuesday in January when no one's in airports. I can imagine what it's like to travel. Now while this this week guys mean you know what you mean that they do stories on this.

They lead up to this.

This is the busiest travel we can know it tops Christmas so everybody's trying to get somewhere and you know, again, our shows run on the weekends we take them during the week and the Tuesday travel stories were ridiculous and your two days away from Thanksgiving so things are to calm down on a Wednesday and then Thursday. Everybody's should be where they need to be and then Friday everybody go shopping. So good luck to you was going to tell you was last weekend.

Again, I just have I just had a birthday something really really old, hit me in today's reading. You cannot fill old and last weekend Friday night and went to the Genesis concert the next day we had a state football game on Sunday with the state basketball game. As I have been exhausted or out of shape. The entire cost I have to like I just like you know went down and did like military level training is struggling coming between the years mean, that's gotta be exhausting just getting to where you need to get trying to enjoy what you're viewing and then yet to get home and then you gotta do it all over again he do that three straight days.

Good luck. After the Genesis concert was a real barnburner to Josh lot headbanging fitting so I know that took a lot out of the 80s in the early 90s. They put out some really good stuff. You'd be surprised. I was surprise I knew. I've never seen Genesis before, but I knew Phil Collins at is that smell probably mostly back and so he was not is not very mobile can play the drums latest kid there and he was relatively young out yes 20s playing the drums. They tore down mandated you just know so many of the songs are just like anger. If you're certain age I Joseph may be too young to really have a lot of Genesis ingrained but is like burned into your brain and so they played a lot of songs I'd forgotten were Genesis Osborne. It was pretty packed it was that was a popular so I thought it would be a little more subdued but there were a lot of people there. What old people are having a lot of fun, myself included, I'm glad you had a good time and I had the opportunity to attend as you know, elected to not attend and didn't go to a football game or basket with some very well rested.

Right now I feel pretty good and just starving myself, anticipating the great feast that is coming. We at we we have a lot of family so got a lot of things I got it like three separate meals and have to fit in overnight five hour. Some really trying to prepare for that. Okay, I got I got a just a random question for both of you. So when you get to these family gatherings.

What's your go to food that you have to have one of the first things you put on the plate, stuffing like if I go for the homemade stuffing.

I think that's the thing that I don't get usually that I go for my wife does really good job but but anywhere we go.

The homemade stuffing thing is with everything else I think I get during the year. At some point here there, but that's the big thing for me and I joke I go I usually grab 17 to 18 dinner rolls and or something sweet potato. Basically I grab something sweet with it, whether be a sweet potato casserole. Well, whatever it may be.

That's usually that's my go to and I can get that at any time of the year to but is just it it calls to me.

I don't know if what it is but a big fan of that, I'll just chime in.

I love any kind casserole, green bean casserole. Certainly if it's early Thanksgiving and you're doing some kind of breakfast me a love breakfast casserole so anyway that WELL THIS CASSEROLE, AT THE WHOLE SEPARATE CONVERSATION. I FLY GOT THE WHOLE WE DO A WHOLE SHOW ON HISTORY COULD YOU WANT TO PENCIL IT IN FOR NEXT WEEK.

THE BREAKFAST CASSEROLE SPECIAL THE BREAKFAST CASSEROLE TOURNAMENT. I GUYS. I DID GET SOME PRESHOW NOTES. THERE'S A K AND W NOTATION HERE. I DO WANT TO GET INTO THAT, I MEAN I THINK THAT'S AN INTERESTING ONE, BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT THAT TODAY WE KNOW.

I MISS THAT BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE MY FAMILY DIAGRAM EYES WERE SHE ALWAYS WANTED TO GO AS A GROWN UP YOU CAN W. CAMERON VILLAGE, AND IT EVEN WHEN I WAS AT STATE AKAMAI FROM LAW SCHOOL LIKE THAT CAN W THAT'S WHERE I WENT TO EAT. NOW THAT IT'S HOME COOKED FOOD OR ANYTHING BEST IS WHAT I ASSOCIATE AS MY COMFORT FOOD WAS CAN W IN IT BEING GONE REALLY MESSES WITH ME THAT I CAN'T JUST GO THERE. I'LL TELL YOU THIS, WHEN WHEN THEY WERE I GUESS THEY FILED BANKRUPTCY AND A LOT OF THEM CLOSED. THERE ARE SOME INDIVIDUAL INCIDENTS ARE STILL OPEN.

THE ONE IN BURLINGTON ON THE WAY TO GREENSBORO.

IT IS RIGHT THERE. IT IS OPEN.

I DO STOP THERE. I GRAB PIES WHEN I'M ON MY WAY TO THE MOUNTAINS TO SEE MY FOLKS BECAUSE MY PARENTS THERE CAN W PEOPLE ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.

THEY LIVE BY IT AND EVERY TIME I'M COMING UP THAT YOUR YOU CAN STOP AND BURLINGTON MORGAN. SLU IS A ANOTHER GOOD PEOPLE GASTRITIS IF IT ISN'T EVERYBODY. IF YOU'RE NOT A K AND W PERSON NOT LIKE DISQUALIFYING LIKE I CAN'T, I WILL ASSOCIATE WITH BECAUSE OF ME. I'M I'M ALSO A K AND W PERSON VERY FOND MEMORIES. NO BAD MEMORIES I HAVE ZERO BAD MEMORY THAT'S ASSOCIATED WITH K AND W LIVE AND I DON'T GET IT.

WE GOT TO GET MOVING HERE BUT CAN W CHOCOLATE POT SAMPLE LADIES AT MY CHURCH GROWING UP WHO COULD MAKE A CHOCOLATE PIE LIKE YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE YOU. CAN'T I WE HAVE THE RECIPE CAN'T REPLICATE IT.

THEY JUST COULD DO IT AND CAN W PRETTY CLOSE. THOSE ARE GOOD CHOCOLATE PIES.

NOW THE PIE THAT I HAVE TO PICK UP.

HEADING UP TO THE MOUNTAINS IS ALWAYS THE CHOCOLATE CREAM WILL REAL QUICK. WHERE WILL WE GET A COUPLE THINGS TO TALK ABOUT IS A LOT OF LEGAL STUFF IN THE NEWS I'M IN. SOMETIMES WERE WERE, LOOKING AND IT IS KIND OF HARD TO FIND LIKE THINGS THAT I THINK WOULD BE INTERESTING TO THE FOLKS WHO ARE LISTENING FIND GOOD LEGAL NEWS THAT WILL BE IN BOMBARDED WITH ITS HER FOR LIKE THE THIRD WEEK IN A ROW WERE TO TALK ABOUT RITTENHOUSE RITTENHOUSE CURRENT HOUSES HAS BEEN ACQUITTED. WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT AS THE TRIALS GOING ON AND SERENA REVISIT THAT JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT THE JURY FOUND IN WHAT ME AND JOE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT AND IT WILL MOVE INTO RECORDING WEDNESDAY MORNINGS.

I'M EXPECTING ABOUT I'M AT ARBOR RETRIAL. I'M EXPECTING THE JURY TO COME BACK TODAY SO WILL WILL MAYBE PLAY A LITTLE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE MAYBE DO SOME PREDICTION BUT BUT IT'S I'M ASSUMING BY THE TIME WE WE GET TO THE AIR, WILL BE A JURY VERDICT, BUT AS OF THIS MORNING. THERE ISN'T ONE. WE GOT ELAINE MAXWELL.

THAT'S IT.

THAT'S ANOTHER ANOTHER HOT YET OFTEN ON HOT AND COLD LIKE YOU'LL HEAR ABOUT IT AND THEN YOU WON'T HEAR ABOUT IT AND IT KIND OF JUST HANGS OUT THERE.

YOU KNOW THE WHOLE JEFFREY EPSTEIN GOT A LOT TO HIS SUICIDE DOOR. SUPPOSE IT SUICIDE GOT A LOT OF MEDIA COVERAGE LOT CONSPIRACY THEORIES BASED AROUND THAT, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU HEAR A LOT OF YOUR A LOT OF THAT. BUT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T NEST SILLY DIG DEEP INTO THE ACTUAL SPECIFICS OF CIVIL TRY TO DO THAT A LITTLE BIT. ALL RIGHT GUYS WE GOT A LOT ON THE PLATE. WE WILL TRY TO GET TO IT ALL. THE OUTLIER'S JOSH WHITAKER AND JOE Hamer MANAGING PARTNERS, WHITAKER AND HAMER LAW FIRM AGAIN. 46 COMBINED YEARS EXPERIENCE IN OFFICES IN RALEIGH GARNER CLAYTON GOLDSBORO FUQUAY MARINA AND GASTONIA. THEY ARE PRACTICING ATTORNEYS HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA AND FOLKS, IF YOU'VE GOT A LEGAL QUESTION THAT'S BEEN BURNING YOU WANT TO GET AN ANSWER TO WHAT YOU NEED SOME HELP THERE. HERE'S THE NUMBER TO CALL 800-659-1186. THAT'S 800-659-1186 LEAVE YOUR NAME AND CONTACT INFORMATION AND ATTORNEY WITH WHITAKER AND HAMER WILL BE IN TOUCH WITH YOU IF YOU GOT A QUESTION YOU'D LIKE TO HAVE ANSWERED ON THE SHOW, YOU GO TO questions@theoutlier.com will use those and upcoming shows, and always go to the website.

D. Outlaw your.com coming up next. We discussed the fallout of the Rittenhouse verdict and tie up some loose in garner Clayton, Goldsboro, Fuquay, Farina and Gastonia. When I say that only Starbucks is illegal. I'm just saying it's legal. He's right. We talk legalese each and every week I Morgan Patrick consumer advocate Rittenhouse guys all over the news. Huge breaking story as far as that is the verdict is in so you guys are going to rehash and give your final thoughts. Joe, you know, one of our Outlaw lawyer predictions here was that no one was going to have a lot of unhappy people never came down. No matter what it was to be yeah you know one thing we do.

We we do a lot of bold predictions in our essay were Batna pals in and out of the mist on a prediction ever doing pretty good and you called it. I will call that week we predicted the outcome of the case which, at a point, you never know with the jury. You never know, but at a point if you really followed the evidence. You didn't just get caught up in a lot of the media hoopla surrounding it. I think I think it was fairly clear what the verdict was going to be. But like you said Josh lot angry people in it and a lot of that can really be traced to the way that a lot of the media, pretrade this event and I still think even with the verdict. Even with such a highly publicized trial think you got a lot of folks, especially folks who are super angry about it who may not fully understand the details are not care to fully understand the details and enter still misinformed about actually what actually took place.

What I can tell you, not just the not just the Rittenhouse problem. Anything that the media really latches onto and covers this intently. Very few people on either side. You know, really know what's going on and really stopped, look at all right will you in here and this is gonna complement our discussion leader of the ARBOR retrial thing ARBOR retrial as is really plays off this because obviously Rittenhouse the big thing was self-defense. Rittenhouse was charged with no homicide three incidents on one show we went, incident by incident, and so it depending on who you felt you know who was the aggressor. Right. That's what it came down to was was Mr. Rittenhouse was the aggressor because he was in a place maybe that. I guess if you believe some people he was there to do violence was hoping for violence.

He was there open carrying armed weird situation. You know, but I think what came out of the trial is nothing he was doing at that time before before the incident, so that resulted in an and the homicide charges. Like he wasn't doing anything illegal. Was he doing something stupid.

Maybe I think that's that is clearly up for for debate, but was he doing anything that was illegal and I think what you saw there was no right so from the from the beginning the status quo was.

He was just he was a guy. He wasn't doing anything illegal.

And so when you start looking at what happened yet to look at each incident and that's what the is what the jury did not was evidence that was presented each encounter who was the aggressor who could claim self-defense images, incident by incident, but when you look at the evidence of what the jury was allowed to see. I don't thing as any. I don't think the jury could accompany any other conclusion yeah I think he said it like what you what you had to go on unit it was. There was a good bit of video footage and then you have the testimony at trial, and if you look at if you look at that testimony there's there's nothing there. It was really nothing to suggest that he he was the aggressor and it was actually a lot of things that actually came out on the prosecution's case that that indicated the exact opposite.

That actually killed that notion that he was the aggressor.

And like you said Josh, you really have to kinda go encounter by encounter and you start with the initial encounter and everything else, follows from that and from from the evidence that was presented.

It was fairly clear that in that initially can counter it if you take take what was said he take that eyewitness testimony is true which which again that's all you have to go off if there was nothing about that situation where where he was the aggressor and it seemed fairly clear and I think it was clear the jury that you know he he was not the aggressor in that situation and he was justified in self-defense and then from from that point on, you know what I think it gets a little bit trickier because you start getting in the perception of you know, the second individual that was shot and what you date what they knew at the time and it it's a tough situation all around, but I think if you again analyze the evidence and you look at it.

It was the right decision. If you ever taken a concealed carry class sites.

A concealed carry and have them think twice because I lost my concealed carry class once I lost my will certificate getting a new one side ticket again but get a good instructor during the concealed carriers usually a section on okay you know will give you a scenario like our year in the grocery store you walk in, there's two people shooting at each other.

You perceive one to be robbing the supermarket seaport are gone and you shoot that person you think done a good thing. Come to find out you gotta make stop. He walked into a different situation that person was the good guy in the scenario but you came in, perceive what you perceived and acted will guess what you're guilty of murder doesn't matter that you thought you were being a good guy. It's going to you in here situation you walk into they always tell you to be careful because you have self-defense only goes so far and so that's why it's so important in these legal proceedings to determine who is the aggressor and so there was evidence that the second and third folks who encountered Mr. Rittenhouse thought they were trying to storm active shooters.

They probably thought they were trying to do something good, but if it was determined that Mr. Rittenhouse was in the aggressor than your own. The wrong euro the wrong side and and it is just that again and I think we said we would want to be on this jury. I would want to be litigating this case I would want to be the judgment it was difficult but if you look at the evidence that it really does seem like the right outcome happened in a really bad situation, yet extremely difficult all around. I don't think anyone you know I don't think Rittenhouse feels good. I mean, obviously he feels good, feels vindicated. He's not going to jail for life but doesn't feel good about the situation.

I think it was fairly clear that he even ate anyone would be affected by that dramatically and genuinely felt like he did what he had to do to detect his own life and was was he really was in a life-threatening situation after that point and you can again you can debate the merit of what he did to it to put himself there and you know, if you listen to him. He essentially didn't. It's difficult because like he said man. It you could look at open carrying an area where people are rioting as being a stupid thing to do. But then again the counterargument that is you got people that are destroying these local businesses and this is an individual who is trying to assist people in by by a lot of accounts was doing some things to assist people either medically or doing some some things that you could look at is virtuous but at the same time I'm knocking to be there open carrying that's not that's not necessarily gonna be my choice, but I think the real tragedy and in this situation is again the on both sides. The lack of the lack of people really taking the time to look into the facts and this is again it's on both sides of the people who just pick a side just because that's that's it fits their belief system or they have this tri-ballistic understanding of of what side they're supposed to be on and in itself me and I think everyone really needs to examine these things more closely before they just agree with the media or someone they know or some post on Facebook you really need to dig in this yourself and inform yourself before you, you come to any kind of a decision about this there's there's a couple things in the aftermath Rittenhouse is the vertex been you know you can't be retried on those charges. David that you know he's been he's been acquitted by saw a couple of editorials where the authors were, and rage that he was not found to be the aggressor and and and they were wondering if the feds you know the federal government would come in and try to charge him on on something that I don't I don't think we'll see that you know I usually know how like a hate crime statute or civil rights statute sometimes will see the federal this was a state trial.

These are state charges. These are all specific to Wisconsin and I heard some people asking and we got kind of a very thing. So far I think we've seen you know that Atty. Gen. is is very active in in trying to do things like this, but only receiving more charges for Rittenhouse only receiving federal charges had to guess, yeah, I would get. I tend to agree with you and your their speculation and again this is speculation from the media, which is is on both sides of biased media in their some speculation that there could be something pursued in that sense, but having one thing that a bold prediction that I can guarantee is that you're gonna see Rittenhouse suing several several individuals.

Media outlets is Guinness to a lot of people and I think you got. He's gonna be successful in those lawsuits is one of the rare would tend to agree alive Joseph that I don't think he's got he's got a case there because he was was a there's enough there to charge my thing. A lot of these cases were you see someone go back and sue the media weren't charged with anything like it was that I don't necessarily think I'm referring specifically to some of the more outlandish claims about white supremacy in regards to either there was something like a season to be easy to sue in winningest everyone not seizing a student when I'm saying is easy to sue after you get paid by by way of settlement yeah yeah well we will see that's you know the verdict came out what last week, so it hasn't been very long and we probably won't get a chance to talk about Mr. Rittenhouse for a while and that his trial has been fully adjudicated but it was would be that written that that any sane individual. Probably he would want that he probably and he said as much. He wants the kind of fade in anonymity, which will be difficult.

I would imagine for him anytime something like this that so many people are invested and it's good to be tough to to fade into the backdrop, but yeah I like you said, I imagine will go with it. It'll go a lot.

Go a while without coming back up on the show would be my assumption buddy again who knows what one of the things that you can guarantee and we've already seen it in a leading into the taping of this show and have from a sports standpoint, I will describe it as the washing machine.

So if Tom Brady wins the Super Bowl he goes through the washing machine and and that means he'll go to an ESPN he'll go to New York City will do the morning shows. He'll do ESPN where he goes to every single show that they produce nothing Tom has to do that anymore. But you know this first-time Super Bowl winning quarterbacks and they go to the washing machine so this is a big story like Rittenhouse them in in the verdict he is going to be at all the news outlets as long as the people that are managing him as I guarantee you he's got managers now is I agree with you. I think there is gonna be a lawsuit. I think he's gonna stay in the news is just it's almost like that status quo. That's what happens when these big cases no get tried through the media and then tried in the courts and then notes the 15 what 15 seconds of fame and they, extended a little bit so we'll see how it all works out, the outlaw law you is Josh Whitaker and SchellHamer Whitaker and Hamer law firm managing partners there 46 combined years experience in again offices in Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Green and Gastonia.

They are practicing attorneys here in the great state of North Carolina and you can get in touch by calling 800-659-1186 if you got your own legal question. Just leave your contact information and attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch.

You got a question you like answered on the program, email it to us questions and the outlaw your.com will use on future show and always visit the website. The outlier.com back after this up next. Joe and I discussed Hamed managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer 46 combined years experience in they are expanding Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Marina and now in Gastonia.

You got your own set of legal questions, you get an answer. Here's the number 800-659-1186, 800-659-1186. Just leave your name, contact information and attorney will be in touch with you and try to get those answers to you for your legal questions and if you want to have a question you pondered on the show. Well, leave it at questions@theoutlawlawyou.com will use on a future program and always go to the website, the outlaw law.

Your.com guys. I mean it's just big case after big case after big case, what's next organism surprised me a couple weekends ago is down in Atlanta and the trawlers are starting even though the trials not planets in the ticket from the name of the town it's in. In Georgia, but I had you know just horrific facts. You know Mr. R.

Marie unit was was killed. It looks like some folks are trying to make a citizens arrest saviors is suspected burglary suspect and try to make a citizens arrest at some point you know they had guns and Mr. RB was defending himself and mystery were shot and killed just a horrible story all the way around and that I'd forgotten about it because it took so long to get to trial. This one had a bunch of crazy stuff some process MDA's recusing themselves, if you read we will rehash it here, but if you you read, how long it took this one to get to trial and get prosecuted, boggles the mind. Yeah Josh a result there was a whole lot of behind-the-scenes intrigue here a lot of very strange nuances and end things taking place as far as with you know you you're in your in a small town and there was a lot of prosecutor knows some of the defendants. There was some personal relationships there. There was some folks haven't recuse themselves is a lot I borderline fishy business that went on that had to be sorted out and I think that kinda contributed to how long it took to get to this point somewhere in the studio. This is wordless to the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, so right now, the jury is still deliberating. I was of got the news appear refreshing to see if anything comes and rose jury just asked to see video data system video wouldn't deny 11 call again, but the jury is deliberating for a full eight hour day one in their second day, but I think this mirrors Rittenhouse and in a lot of ways because you have basically some folks who are claiming self-defense so you have to come to go through this calculation again and figure out who the who the aggressor was in the situation and I think just reading the facts. I have not been following this one is closely as as I did Rittenhouse. I just it just kind of snuck up on me but just that, reviewing the facts there. There is a little difference here and that there was this antiquated Georgia law that allowed a citizen to make a citizens arrest and I haven't read outlaw again are not licensed in Georgia, but it's a little complicating factor that wasn't in, and Rittenhouse. As we talked about Rittenhouse may not been the smartest decision in the world to be open carrying it at a protest in a situation that could turn violent, but it wasn't illegal and in here the citizens arrest statute, gums it up a little bit gives the jury something else to have to consider. Now I know after this happened that was taken off the books. I did see that yeah and and that's it. It's it, that's kind of it. It's an interesting point, but it's not relevant to you know these charges because again you can't retroactively go back and take that away and I think you're right, Josh. You take that law out of the equation.

I think this is fairly cut and dry, and even with the presence of that law, it still may be fairly cut and dry and there's there's and their similarities to the Rittenhouse case, but a lot of differences as well. In terms of how this developed and who the aggressor was but like you said that that law an antiquated Civil War era law that has since been taken off of the books really really does kind of throw a wrench in this because like you said, whoever who the aggressor is is what the relevant factor is but if you've got justification by this law, it gets a little bit more tricky, and I think this is a little bit. I think this is a little less clear cut the call than the Rittenhouse case.

As far as predictions go with that being said, I still think you guys are guilty. What I do to any gift predicting, and it's all renewing were prognosticating but I would be shocked I'm in shock before God. Be shocked if these if these gentlemen are not found guilty just based on the facts in the in the cases been you know that the Rittenhouse judge docket members name of the judge in the Rittenhouse case got a lot of depending on what media outlets you are following got a lot of criticism use could criticize it because he's kind of the centric a little bit, but he was pretty fair judge and I get on some things difference, but all all he kept control the court nothing too crazy happen. I can't say the same for this when there's been a lot of stories with the judge entertained with the judge allowed to be said and I don't like this case at all. I am surprised the jury has I thought we would have a verdict to talk about this morning so I'm really kind of alarm and try to figure out my head what's going on in that jury room.

I feel like there's probably like one.

I would hope they're trying to convict enters like one or two holdouts are trying to commence what I hope that's what's going on. I hope it's not the other way around where most people want to let you guys go winners you know a couple people who are who are hold now but I hope they can. I hope they can.

I hope they convict and hope they convict today going in the Thanksgiving just seems like if you look at the evidence that was presented. It seems like a no-brainer to me. Borderline yeah me too man. I think the most reasonable people even even if you take the defendant's argument at you know and you look at it in the most favorable light possible. It still you you got testimony direct testimony from from one of the defendants, you know, basically stating this. He knew this individual didn't have a weapon. He was unarmed. He never brandished a weapon. He never threatened them verbally like there's. How do you justify murdering an individual, even in the event that this person was near burglarizing a vacant house.

Whatever it was they suspected him of doing.

That's not a proportional response and you don't get the right just outright murder someone and I'm with you Josh that the sooner the sooner this gets wrapped up the better the I did see that again and in following this one is closely as a kind, fell off my radar there for a while but I did see the federal they've Artie been indicted on hate crimes. That's all coming up in February so I guess that's the one. The one thing you know if this jury comes back with anything but a conviction at least that at least the federal government has kinda stepped in and I doubt they they get enough that it seemed like these guys can go down one or the other missing like they should that that's cannot say we go through the facts.

We could we could talk about some of the evidence, but I had seen. Haven't seen anything that would convince me as a juror to let those guys ball yeah I agree with you know we talked about parallels with the Rittenhouse case and yet the federal component and in speculating whether the feds would try to get involved in the Rittenhouse case and that the difference here is you got that clear spiritual component and with that clear racial component you got.

Like you said those those additional federal charges and and I'm with you man, it's this seems clearly egregious, and you look at the evidence and there's really there's no way to spin it where this shouldn't bother you, the outlaw liars we are discussing a Mart harboring and again we tape in the middle of the week. There should be some kind of verdict this week.

Obviously we will get into this next week. Want to make sure that you understand that each and every week we talk legalese between Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer managing partners at Whitaker and Hamer law firm 46 combined years experience between these two attorneys and they are practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. They have offices in Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Marina and Gastonia.

If you got your own legal question. You need an answer. We got a number for you to call in an attorney with Whitaker and Hamer will be in touch.

Just leave your information 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186 if you got a question you'd like answered on the program just email it to us questions@theoutlawalongher.com and for past shows in podcast form you go to our website. The outlier.com I Morgan Patrick consumer advocate. We have more to get to and will do that right after this coming up next.

We Will Talk Forthcoming Ln., Mac managing partners there practicing attorneys here in North Carolina 46 combined years experience between these two offices in Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Green and Gastonia.

You got your own legal question. We got a number 4800 659-1186 leave your name, contact information and attorney with Whitaker and Hamer law firm will be in touch again. The number 800-659-1186 if you got a question you'd like pondered on the program. You can always email it to us questions at the outlaw law. Your.com and please check out the website, the outlaw your.com again gentlemen we talk about big ones were talking about big stories.

Rittenhouse amount already and now another big case. The Guillain Maxwell trial is is going to start.

I think having driving a Salzman from 29 to be seen that yes Josh, I have seen that. But to be fair, I saw that on your notes that you prepare.

I think that's what I saw this one you know this was another want to come I got away from me. She's been so long you know everybody knows what happened to Jeffrey Epstein or what what didn't happen to a woman is his suicide in prison and in obviously by all reports, kind of a SCSI SCSI situation there and then involved a lot of famous folks and it was a big lightning rod story for a long time. In any committed suicide incident, I got Ms. Maxwell on on charges in and she's been in prison. I have followed some of the stories under treatment in prison. Obviously because of what happened to Mr. Epstein they've been keeping a close watch on her. They wake her up every couple hours to make sure she's alive. So she was a big international old woman of means of our associate passports to know from a lot of different countries.

She travels yet people who watched over. She has her own money so she lived a pretty fancy adding lifestyle. By all accounts, analyses getting out not getting the meal she wants not be able to sleep small cell constant surveillance out, I saw that her attorneys. I think just made a complaint to the UN on her. Her treatment and her conditions are seen that come up its opportunity. Yes, you know, basically a socialite who came from money and I'm sure not thrilled with with her current situation as far as it's not the lavish lifestyle that she's accustomed to. But also, I'm sure it's far more glamorous than a lot of the individuals that are in state prison. Zora, you know, the hard lockup deal with on a daily basis and I think that this lady is accused of art.

Anything smaller anything to laugh at her anything minor.

It these are substantial ridiculous allegations. Basically, I think it's important to note before you get too far into it. So we talked about Rittenhouse. We talked about the armory we been calling it Barbary trial but I was to Mr. arbor is is deceased. It is not on trial, but we been calling not just serving as were talking about the state court cases and so when our in federal court wearing big boy court court wearing federal court and so this is the one where your judges don't have to allow video and so were just getting some sketches when she appears in and they stop being a live stream nothing that's rubbed some folks the wrong way but but this is federal court so it's completely there are some similarities but it's it's different yet like you said this is this is been a hot button issue and especially for a lot of folks who are very much into the conspiracy theories and as far as Epstein and and Maxwell both and just everything surrounded their case to me there.

There elaborate substantial theories regarding you know how deep this goes how hard this permeates the upper echelons of society and a lot of speculation as to you know what happened with Epstein relating to that, but there's really there's there's nothing conspiratorial about the fact that this this trial is not being publicized in the same manner as in a the Rittenhouse trial was because like you said it's it's federal court and this isn't unusual to have those things admitted in the way that they're being omitted so that that that in of itself doesn't indicate foul play but again, you can understand these are very serious charges and these are the type of things.

I know there's every body rational wants to see someone who is is a is accused of and who has done the things that are being alleged here, that person has done these things everyone wants to make sure that justice is being carried properly and that gives people a very vested interest in Wagoner.

I agree with you. One thing that I answer this before the show.

I was a journal I was a journalism undergrad major crops and went to law school, I stand before you as a lawyer now, but not journalism aspect of this is still very interesting to me what people what what outlets choose to cover what's happening newspapers over the past in the 15 years like all that I find very interesting how people get their news and so I can look to because there is there are some conspiracy theories on how Maxwell's being covered and I will tell you when I went look to try to get more information about evidence that was to be presented what was what was coming up at you, Slim Pickens.

He knows I went to the CNN's and the Fox news is in the MSNBC's newscast searched her name. Maybe one or two stories in the month of November. So far, definitely not a lot of coverage yet AP news BBC was covering it very heavily. But I guess it's because Prince Andrew was involved in. It sounds like he's he's not really to be as involved as as maybe they thought early on. Maybe rid of one of the witness is accusing him of stuff is not to be as involved in the case, but it was really hard in the room. A lot of the actual documents filed by prosecutors and defense attorneys get information because there was no meaner enters other things going on and until the 29th when the trial starts you maybe everything will take up then, but so far not a whole Lotta coverage and in what we always call you kind of mainstream media is just I think it will be but it's it's odd that it's not there yet it is and and again that's one of those things at the conspiracy theory, folks, you know sees on the lack of coverage and you look at it if you look at Epstein and you look at how he's he was very and you know it's hard to say to you know when you get to a certain point in society and you are if you're a famous person you're associating with his famous people. You don't you don't necessarily want to take the fact that an individual was filmed with another person as evidence that you know they're in collusion together but a lot of evidence that a lot of very big names you both actors and musicians just just people that famous people in general were you know associated with with Epstein and then by proxy, Maxwell and ended in it should give you Paul's you know, it really should and in a lot of ways this this Maxwell trial is kind of Epstein's trial by proxy. If you look at it because she was kind of his his right hand lady in helping to to carry the allegedly to carry out these these heinous things that are being alleged John to fall this one closely because I'm interested to see what the actual I feel like we've heard a lot about it early on. But probably more like you said more apps. Epstein and then Maxwell, but I miss should see with evidences I eat. I can imagine Ms. Maxwell's ever to be a free person again but couldn't course to want to jump to conclusions. We always want to see when evidences is put on soul hold off giving her the outlaw law your prediction on her and urged what her jury returns until we see some evidence yet withholding that is well we will wait and we maybe wait till till the verdict is announced to make a prediction just to keep that hundred percent record want to keep that sterling are Joe and second minutes we talked about three various very serious topics. I wanted take a minute in a couple weeks ago we said they were not when I have a little bit of fun to do our own little 1616 movie tournament on the bed. You try to find the best according to the outlaw lawyer.

Anyway, the best legal movie of all time and soft, gone, selected some movies I like that have come up with 16 movie 16 team tournament and I did. I did this about talking to you size, going to get we got for pod. So I generally discover you. We generally discuss this in theory I think that counts in the fact that you put in the legwork. I'm proud of you. It does worry me because I think you seen maybe six movies when you watch 18,000 episodes of The Simpsons.

It doesn't leave a lot of time to watch movies but I'm at. I see your notes and I like where your head that I like where this is going to. I was going to say I like the fact that you not only became up with 16 teams. You put them in pods. You broke down the pods into different categories and I like the categories so this will really ready for pod. So for pods of four movies were have the black and white bracket sides, but all the older movies in the black and white bracket in order to have straight comedy bracket. That's the route we call it the cousin many bracket arena how to have one is kind of more drama geared in my dreams I did not pick drama high drama and a linear straight action or have an action pods.

That's her for pods around the black and white bracket comedy bracket high drama bracket action bracket right alight with those as movies of find other brackets and will have a final four will crown our best legal movie of all time. And so today I felt like we would reveal her black-and-white pod and this was hard I had to do like just said I don't watch a lot of movies in the will, in the movies.

I do watch that I like.

I rewatch over and over again and I have exceeded these guys yet. I didn't get that far, but if I had seated. I think our first movie would be the number one overall seed and it is to kill a Mockingbird see adjusted to kill a Mockingbird that the number one seed for sure.

Kind of the, the Duke basketball of the legal movie attorney if you will. I think that that movie that book adding an inspired a lot of attorney is kind of my age and and an older I don't know if the kids today in school, they still get to kill a Mockingbird notes on Broadway because I see that all nugget said on Sunday morning. They figured that a lot, but I think to kill a Mockingbird has to be the presumptive number one overall favorite APPC, not as I see. Yeah it's it's a classic.

And again, if a generational thing.

I'm like you, I'm not sure if the if the kids still get it, but when I was coming through. We still got it set it's one of those that it's one of those that you everyone for the very most part should be familiar with and not like you said, I think that the shoo-in at least out of this pod. I think it's it's gotta be the favorite and listen just for our listeners. Let me translate that. That's Joe calling Josh old Josh called himself the lesser of it. In my defense, is the black-and-white pod to this is the pod of the young people in a by definition what else you got what the next one up.

I thing is gonna be as kind of a classic. I can't say have ever made it through this one all the way. But I got the gist of it miracle on 34th St. that's the next one. The trial of Santa Claus very seasonal as we approach the holiday season and I think the fact that that were playing this tournament out during the holiday season may give an unfair home-court court miracle on 34th St. Mr. so that that and in that nostalgia may play into any got a lot of remakes of that as well so it's got a lot of things going for me and it really does and why do you guys the next two movies I had to Google and figure out what other people thought were really good movies legal movies from the black-and-white errors I actually have to watch the but we got 12 angry men. We got inherit the land asking 12 angry men.

I took a film class very culture just for this and I actually took a film class at one of the great learning institutions in our country. Barton College and we actually watched 12 angry men. That was one of the films we watch. I recommend man and I think it had dark horse.

I think it could be a dark course of it. As far as black-and-white movies go and you you appreciate legal things like, you can if you like legal things in general I think you like the movie we are Morgan's own anyway. Seen inherit the land.

I have not seen that but I'm have to do some research and in view these, obviously, since they're going to be in the tournament and you know these these first four seeds interesting.

This is a sequel to gone with the wind by Jan I think you know pre-ring is a prick that what what Wikipedia tells me and we will watch this movie for we we dissected more but it tells me that in the 1920s Tennessee schoolteacher Bertram Cates put on trial for violating the Butler act was later that prohibits public school teachers from teaching evolution instead of creationism that sound. It sounds terrible to be very very up-to-date and current 16 seed from 15 feet from the big sky conference that barely scraped out the play in game five. Hill Bernstein now are you guys honoring the great Dick York all right we got we got our first four seeds again.

It's the black-and-white pod to kill a Mockingbird. 12 angry men miracle on 34th St. in inherit the wind. We will also unveil the other three pods and upcoming shows your listing to the outlaw allies Josh Whitaker and Joe Hamer managing partners at Whitaker name the law firm they have offices in Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Marina and Gastonia. They are practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. If you got your own legal question. You need an answer. Here's the number 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186 leave your name, contact information and attorney with Whitaker Hamer will be in touch if you want a question answered on the program future additions. Just email us questions@theoutlawyour.com were back, and will wrap things up and we have a listener question to ponder of next we have a listener question about veil allies Josh Whitaker Joe Haber Whitaker handle law firms where you can find it during the week managing partner there. 46. By music variance in offices in Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Marina and Gastonia.

They are practicing attorneys here in North Carolina guys know you got a listener question. So let's get to it. We do I get this question from a couple people Morgan so we unfortunately about bad news over the weekend for Wisconsin but they had that incident where I suspect ran through Christmas parade a lot of death just a terrible situation but one of things that came out of reporting on on on the guys been charged with a as long criminal record.

He was recently arrested for trying to run someone else over. And when things that came to light is that the judge gave him an exceptionally low bail amount of available cash, 12,000 box maybe is what it was for trying to run over or charge and try to run over his mother of one of his children and subject in just a terrible situation all the way around.

But what it calls a lot of people do in the media that some folks asked me they don't understand how Bell could be set that way for a serious crime and and a lot of people didn't really know what bail was so Joe, I figured I'd be a good listener question we going to find just bail yeah and and like you said that super unfortunate incident and the fact that it happened and and pretty pretty close proximity to the Rittenhouse incident as well. Just a tough tough string of events for just wince Wisconsin in general and to answer to answer your question, bail is essentially the temporary release of an accused person that's awaiting trial and and it sometimes on the condition that a sum of money generally on on the condition that a sum of money has to be pledge to guarantee that person's appearance in court.

It was she in charge of the crime. Depending on the serious seriousness of the crime. The judges can determine what they want to make sure your government. Courts even charge rain different states: different things, but you're in front of a judge to answer charges and they want to make sure you come at court was a determined based on your charges, your you miss Maxwell. We talked about Ms. Maxwell and she has always passports from all these different countries at tremendous white risk so they didn't even grant her bail. But for a lot of things, will save $1000 bail $10,000 bail. But that's the amount of money the court was hold to ensure that you're going to show up for your court case and so you'll see sometimes that's cash right so if you get $1000 bail thousand dollars in your pocket or your you or someone you know does they just paid thousand dollars in your you're out until your trial if it's a lot of money right if it's serious crime. I think this the same gentleman who's been charged and is in Wisconsin is Bell was just at a $5 million for his current charges which are again horrific and some people think it's too much. Some people think it's too little, but it's hard to come up with $5 million as that's the thing. You can use cash.

You can use real property can get Nobel bondsman and and if you don't have a thousand you have 100.

They may post for a fee.

They may post that bond for you, but that's that's in general. That's what bail is in attorneys will argue all these factors with your flight risk.

The seriousness of the charges your criminal record. All these things can be used. Are you why your bill should be less or more and that's what you that's what a good attorney can do for you in that is there and argue of course to it to reduce that bail in there to give various reasons why it should be reduced and and then again, sometimes as arguments are to be accepted and like you said, with a case of Maxwell in the case of this individual you're going to that bail should be proportional to that you that risk that you don't appear. And a lot of folks in this situation were kind of angry about the fact that the bill was so low for this person. Prior to this incident happened and you feel like you know maybe if he was he was locked up. This could've been prevented but there's a delicate balance. There between fairness and you know it bail being too high. Bill being too low, the outlaw liars we have another episode in the books, Josh Whitaker, Joe Hamer, your host Whitaker Hamer law firm is where you can find them managing partners there 46 years combined experience between these two Raleigh Garner Clayton Goldsboro Fuquay Farina and Gastonia, where you can find their offices practicing attorneys here in North Carolina. If you got your own legal question is a call 800-659-1186. That's 800-659-1186 or you can email your questions to the show questions@thelli.com will use it on a future show the guys.

Great show, and we will see on the radio next week is attorney licensed to practice law in North Carolina disappearing on the show.

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