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100: Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Pt. 1 (Things Mormons Hate Series)

Outer Brightness /
The Truth Network Radio
November 21, 2021 12:30 pm

100: Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, Pt. 1 (Things Mormons Hate Series)

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November 21, 2021 12:30 pm

This is our 100th episode, and we have a special treat for you, fireflies! This episode, we kick off our short, “Things Mormons Hate” series. Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul discuss Jonathan Edwards’ important sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” There are two parts to our discussion. In this first part, we talk about our understanding of God’s wrath when we were LDS, passages in LDS canon that reference the wrath of God, how we understand the wrath of God juxtaposed with the love of God, the danger of a theology that focuses solely on the love of God, people in church history who have attempted to create theologies that separate the love of God from the justice of God, and whether or not there are people today who seek to do the same. We hope you enjoy this conversation.

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In your right and was back to the steps about the brightness of the positive pole. My cohost Matthew the nuclear commonest and start customer series number calling things Mormons hate and I would think will be a fun series of episodes so will dive into today is kind of like this concept of the wrath of God as we discussed with Latter Day Saints online.

A lot of times the idea that God would be angry at his children is something that Latter Day Saints kind of recoil from I think that I can comes little bit naturally from some of their teachings about them is something I've noticed so dive in and talk about that today I will be sharing a reading of Jonathan Edwards sermon sinners in the hands of an angry God, which the sermon that I've often seen Latter Day Saints.

Also recoil from mother don't like the implication of an angry God. So Matthew night and have a quick conversation and will share that sermon with you but am so Jonathan Edwards was a Congregationalist minister and the sermon was kind of like the spark that lit the first great awakening. I am the United States between 1730 and 1750 so when he gave this sermon. I believe it was in 1743 and really kind of lit New England afire for the gospel and its sermon that is Matthew noted this is quite well regarded among reformed Christians correct. Matthew so Jonathan Jonathan Edwards gave the sermon on my first introduction to the sermon was in a college textbook that was it's basically the American literary tradition and so there are sermons and mayor from cotton Mather and and also this one from Jonathan Edwards member reading at meeting. Kind of like the scholarly literary approach to what Edwards puts forth in the sermon also mentions previous episodes that I use to deliver pizzas when Angela and I were first married and we were struggling for funds to raise our children. I used to work two jobs I drove pizza and so I would be driving around my little white Ford escort station wagon slinging pizzas of people and that gave me a lot of time in the car to listen to radio and and often I would listen to Christian radio on one.

One of the nights that I was delivering pizza.

The local Christian radio station was doing a reading of Jonathan Edwards. Edwards sermon and I remember remember having had a conversation with another letter to say online about how how much he disliked the taste of the sermon left in his mouth when he read it as part of a college course because didn't like the idea of God being angry so that's my but I remember that night driving pizza that it had a cover profound impact on the list in the sermon and then as it did Jonathan Edwards listeners when he first gave the sermon, it was reported that as he was preaching the sermon that many in the congregation were crying out what must I do to be saved, so it had definite definitely had an impact in reaching people for the gospel and then turning hearts towards Christ. So nebulous.

Talk about the conversation know about this idea of an angry God when when you are at all when you're in LBS still did you God is angry.

I thought of them is angry and sends we see and will talk about. I think probably specific passages in the canon about God, pouring out his wrath sinners on Christ.

So yeah there is some at some level where I saw he was angry in a sense, but all this focus much more on how God loves everybody equally how everybody's child and so how could he know he only punishes his children because it's beneficial for them is asking how I viewed it so I don't think of them as I can, angry, wrathful God and more so Micah a father that's very strict strict father sometimes maybe punishes someone very harshly because he's trying to help my son and you think that's doing a similar to how Christians view God's wrath.

Where is it different to think well somewhere in a sense a God does punish you know people for their sins, if they are outside of Christ, but but he's not the father and sets in the sense of our literal father everybody in humankind. So we can't really tell somebody my God know God is your father and your literal father readers are spirit in creating your spirit or you know because you're a child of God that we can say he's the creator and he's the father in the sense of credit all things. That's it. And so when he punishes sin when it punishes sinners is not because it is a very strict parent, but it's because he's the creator who some doubt as capacities, moral capacities, responsibilities, and when we sin against God.merits just know the just punishment of his wrath. And there is more in the does talk about let you know God's justice cannot God's mercy can a robber's justice is part. It's just that you start really believes that people will actually be punished eternally everlastingly for their sins.

They talk about how people go to spirit prison. And then those who are refused to accept the gospel be released and go to the cluster kingdom, but that's inactive the thousand year term that prison sentence. Whatever is up at millennium don't get out but there's there's nothing like that in the Bible it says that so there is no is a lake of fire and brimstone, where the plane quenches not according to the Bible so there's really no indication in the Bible to their suffering letter and so their similarities but it is quite a bit different and all good points to one of the things you noted about the difference between how Latter Day Saints view God as father and how Christians view themselves as being adopted into God's family through Christ. Do you think that that difference in how we view God and met Latter Day Saints to all humans are literally God's spirit children to think that plays a part in their aversion to this idea of the wrath of God thing that does play a part because we believe that God is not going to cast out his adopted children into hell. So I mean it kinda makes sense on that level where coffees are father then how could he really pushes that to that extreme, but, but, yes, it's I just don't I get around the entire witness of Scripture in the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants for God just promises that you just going to pour his wrath upon people who don't recognize him or don't keep his commandments. And I would be but it's only temporary. Like temporary wrath. I guess at the most so it's there's there's a lot of difficult things reconcile for theology as to the entire of the biblical witness to God's wrath.

It just seems like they focus on the portions were God says he loves them ignore the rest.

Exactly.

I was kind of surprised in preparing for our conversation tonight and I looked up the number of instances instances of the phrase wrath of God that are found in the LBS Canon and so that's inclusive of the Bible, the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants, the pearl of great price. Interestingly enough New Testament uses that that phrase wrath of God, at least in the King James version is used by Latter Day Saints seven times whereas the book of Mormon uses the phrase wrath of God 10 times the doctrine and covenants seven times in the pearl of great price. One time, so as you were saying the whole whole of LBS Canon talks pretty plainly about the wrath of God and that God is wrathful towards sinners and you are one of the one of the places where it uses this phrase kind of an proximity to a really popular LBS passage of Scripture is is Mosiah 319, which you as a seminary student in in the LBS faith you you memorize that at least you did when I was younger I don't know if they still do, but you memorized as a Scripture mastery passage and tennis. As you know, for the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the time of Adam, and will be forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit become at the same and so there's this idea that when you're in with in the book of Mormon. The winter outside of Christ. You are an enemy to God, and you will be forever. Then, if you kind of like fast forward to doctrine, the 76 you think about what's taught there about the eternal fate of of all of humanity. The do the number of those who will be experiencing God's wrath with Satan and his demons. According to LDS views of the afterlife is very small though the sons of perdition understood to be very small's very small group of individuals, whereas the vast majority of of humanity will be saved to some level of heaven which doesn't really make sense right because he think about who is said to be in the celestial kingdom which is the lowest tier of the LBS three-tiered view of heaven is murderers, it's liars by assisted it's the people whom the Bible says will be cast into hell. And yet Joseph Smith said that the celestial kingdom if it if we could experience is so much better than this life that we would kill ourselves to to go there right and so Latter Day Saints view, the view of heaven and Latter Day Saints theology is that even know that the murderers and and and those who would be considered outside of Christ. Those who would be considered enemies to God are going to be in a place that is better and and and more enjoyable than this life, and so to an interesting thing that that happens within LDS theology. Between the running Mormon and then later on by Matthew Yan and going back to what you said about them. Seeing God as the folly of everybody. I think they don't want to deal with the idea that there is eternal and so to kinda solve that issue to stairwells, not eternal. No just entry to find it say God's punishment is eternal punishment. God's eternal life is God's life in become as God's punishment they redefine it, doesn't mean it's without and it just means that it comes from God and so I think they don't mean like I understand you not Christians struggle to my friends and family that don't accept Christ if they die in their state sender to be punished eternally in hell that extends like it's just have a mind blowing concept by I don't think the solution to getting around that is to say well it's redefine the terms and say will God's given us new revelation is not actually how is the Bible says that's not how actually to be something as a way to get around it seems seems atomic with no disability does them for sure when you were LBS. What would you think about those passages in an LBS Canon that that spoke to the wrath of God. How did you how did you understand that it's kind hard to try to do back in my memory, but it seemed kind of like you know when your parents are really upset at you when you do something really bad or if you don't do your homework you know the kind of the kind of you. These really strong threats. I golf you do them to beat you senseless kind of thing you know you know they know in their minds and not doing that is kind just like something like shock you. Did you just do it all will do some deep trouble. So I think this can how I understood it when God threatened his wrath against people when being eternal wrath even know if it said it was eternal just feel like such a really long time that essentially would be eternal in every moment that suffering would be very painful. Cellulose doesn't last forever. It was still feel like it and also said it was more to just have like scare you into you know will be obeying God and repent rather than the actual threat lease that's maybe that's kind of how I saw it because he had a when you read the book of Mormon straight through, it does warn you to let you know if you die you know in your standing on the be thrust onto how state inspect at all throughout and it's like well you know if you if you really think I literally like Jessup against Dr. income 76 which I mean technically yes technical healthcare. Spirit prison but look Mormon is no indication that that hell is temporary so it does, you can likely conflict a little bit definitely the first passage in the book of Mormon that know which passages at Sonoma and the gist of it is that you now is now is the time for men to prepare to meet God is the idea that this life is once you out of this life. The same spirit which possesses you now will possess you been those those those ideas that are there within Mormonism within the book of Mormon. It was really kinda buck up against the later teachings that that there's a second chance after someone dies and sailors.

It was amendment outspent and yeah it's like all just give an example. Likewise, can have you as my companion.

Clinician use the older and inspector Mike Cusick right before the cutoff thing to come off like that so he put in his papers pretty soon before and I cut off the grip LBS and like you are interested in being in the church but I think he described his expensive ring of a corpsman just don't like shocked and stunned, you know, like all the sins that you committed and you are, will come up to that such sky would become active in the church sunsets, just example practical examples. How else can explain. So you like.

You decide the idea that the book of Mormon could for some people awaken them to an understanding of their guilt before God rent yet even that even though maybe not necessarily how place so yes sir just to kind of awaken them to learn the gravity of their sins. How you did. You how did you think of as best as similar to you so I I grew up with the view of God as as angry and nine I think I pick some of that up from popular culture right cartoons that the Canon portrayed God is casting lightning bolts of somebody when they do something wrong. I can some data from arboriculture-be honest, but also from my Mormon upbringing and my mom would say things like, you know, God is always watching so you and he sees everything there's nothing you can hide from them, which are very biblical teachings pray. God knows everything and then we can't hide anything from him but because of kind of Mormonism's unique teachings about repentance that are bit different from biblical teachings about repentance. I can agree with this feeling that I constantly had to keep myself out of the wrath of God in daily. I was moving between the state of in wrath and the wrath of God and the state of safe from the wrath of God depending on how I did that day and noted kind of felt like there was no you what, what hope that I have. It would if it only relied on me to make sure that I'm doing the best I can. I'm living the best I can and and constantly asking for forgiveness where I where I failed.

I didn't feel like there was any hope so that the wrath of God was something that I felt was upon me at all times which is different than in the teaching of the Bible that when you are in Christ there is no more condemnation for you but if you're not in Christ.

The wrath of God is still upon you right, but there there is this state in which are in Christ and my my eponym upbringing and Mormonism didn't give me a sense that I was in Christ as a latter-day St. it was that was something I was always striving to try to be try to be in Christ and so it's SSI saw things yeah think for sure and I think we share stories like that somewhere situation. Words like sometimes you have good moments and bad moments in Royce, trying to get on God's good side and its innate there's a such a focus on keeping LDS church which isn't a bad thing if kept in the right context, but that's a problem.

The other search doesn't have this concept of justification which I think will talk about and I just want to bring up when the verses that is problematically selected.

You hung over my head as though LDS is Dr. income is 59 verse 21, where it says in a nothing of man offend God organist none. His is wrath.

You don't save those who confess not his hand in all things and obey not just minutes and so you know it's it's like okay if you're not obeying his commandments God's wrath is on me, basically. And it doesn't say trying really hard to keep feeling that says either obey predawn your bank assess the God as you know, what you doing all things or your unders wrath is no second direction and stuff you really take that literally like sounds, it does sound like basically everybody's under God's wrath.

Even buddy Saints doesn't matter how righteous your disorders. Wrath ends to speak to that a little bit. If you're you see, sometimes man on the street type interviews with latter-day Saints where someone like Jeff Berman last asked them you know you are doing everything that you're supposed to be doing right or you like the the Lutheran satire.

The was at the Connell.

What are the one of those little cartoons to the next and I forget. I forget that you guys next to the Lutheran monks talk to talk to C missionaries may ask them to do with what's better to prayer to go to a movie and on the answer to prayer and know what's better than getting different scenarios in psych keys up to the point that no matter how good you think you doing. There's always something that you could be doing better to serve God by and so is a latter-day St. that's that's kind of the way you feel this is always something that you could've done better and then your attempts at serving God and so if you if you trusting in your efforts to please God and then serve him and and to abate his wrath by serving him, then you're always going to be left feeling that you just didn't measure up because like a senator. There's always something you could've done better so but the other thing is that within latter-day St. theology there's there's no concept of in Latter Day Saints and I've even told by think both you and I am in and others on online you know that the idea of imputation of Christ's righteousness to our account is heresy did this not something that's part of their theology and I was listening to a podcast episode.

Recently I apologize to whoever was a listening project I was in the seminaries limit they made the point that if you are not willing to accept the imputation of the first Adam, then you can't expect to receive the imputation of the second Adam, which I think is really interest a really really interesting way to point out that you know all have sinned right in Latter Day Saints don't accept that idea that all have all of sins they would say you know that infants are innocent and that there were were not going to be held accountable for Adams transgression, but for our own sins, but all have sand and all are in Adam, are you do, either in the first Adam earlier in the second Adam, Christ, and so this idea of imitation is a part of their theology, but that's what gives the hope right of an escape from the wrath of God, yeah, amen this day I can imagine it is like the will of imagery that Dr. Wright uses a lot of times acacias wearing a cloak he also liked the prodigal son you know the, the prodigal son came back and my father gave cloak may need to get my coat on, is coming that Jesus gives us his cloak of perfect righteousness, but it seemed like as LDS. You're constantly try to patch up your "you know like you basically like giving all the tools to get all the materials on the fabrics all the instruments sewing machines and needles of bread and it's up to you to like that thing together like Jesus will help you and Helen encourage you and give you tips on how to do it.

You put that club together rather than just be indefinite completed by him as he had always felt like it was my cloak was never completely righteousness never good enough. And yet, your honor, and in domestic discussion reminds me a lot of Luther's expense on religion King Martin Luther because he was a Catholic priest and he just felt like terrify the First Amendment to you know to perform a mass because he just felt he didn't feel holding a financial worthy enough to know, less the Eucharist to bless the Lord supper and I he would spend hours and hours and confessions, possibly confessing his sins. The document you into fast enough and was mentally was reading scriptures that he understood that you know that this theirs is imputation of Christ's righteousness through faith alone, and not by the works or any combination of your works and faith and so was it. Only then, where he understood the gospel. They said that's the core of the gospel and if you don't understand this concept of Tatian or or you know of being gifted with Christ's righteousness, and you really don't have a good news story.

Maybe have a watered-down version and so it's it's just so key that what you want to understand this because we feel like there is LDS ourselves.

We are just burdened buyer sends and trying to work trying to keep her commandments and do arts and how you are what I called keeping our care covenants and magnifying your calling us and but it's just natural good enough and it's because you're not good enough must appoint that's why Jesus alone. This is that the answer amen however Jesus when he imagined born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in order to more commonly referred to as all of us have left that have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Podcast this next John, 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our comes to us from without is to share our journeys of faith God has done in joining us to his son, glad you found this hope you stick around and remembered which podcast is listen to when I heard that that statement it was the coldest podcast which is kind of like a spinoff of was just about you apology studios yeah so they were talking with the Christian who had been born and raised in the church of Christ, which is another branch of the American restoration movement which I belong.

But that this kind of like the more more conservative, more fundamentalist branch of the American restoration movement so you know that they were talking him and then remember which one of them made the statement, but it was a really really cool way to put it. You know that if you're not if you're not if you don't accept the imputation of the first item you can't expect text to receive invitation of the second Adam, so that was that was interesting way to juxtapose those to and and have it come clear right that there were all under the imputation of original sin and therefore the only hope we have of righteousness and attaining good standing with God is by the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us.

Okay so as as a Christian now how do you how do you understand the this concept of the wrath of God juxtapose with the love of God, so I was looking for a passage in physics Ephesians but yeah when yet. Ephesians 2 so when Paul is talking about talking to fellow believers in Ephesus, he goes. He starts off by talking about all the blessings are in Christ chapter 1 all spiritual blessings know that all girl given to us in Christ and in any contrast that with chapter 2 where he is basically talking about their previous life before their state and so he says you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power the air, the spirit that is now working the sons of disobedience, among whom we all once lived in the past of our flesh tearing out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest. So yeah, going back to what you said earlier LDS only really think of a really really simple. People like sons of rappers disobedience. You must a time. It seems like because sin is a necessity to progressing to become a God that it's like, well seen on its own is not that bad. It's especially Adam send you know it's like while he was no use doing. It was only transgression there is no you know it was as part of the plan. So he did it because you had to. And there's no there's this kind of watering down as some level of what sin actually is like how even the smallest of senses can bring God's wrath upon us, and so just reading the Bible that way and understanding to everybody was upset Christ is God's wrath one another is just as it's a lot different because the gospel the Gospels that you know were children to wrath the gods made a way to save us not to rescue us from that was like an LDS church is kind of like this, God already loves you as you are right now and he just wants to make you a better you sort of thing that's kind of the goal of the LDS gospel is not like trying to rescue you from this from the flames of hell are from this this threat that just weighs over US like well you know you make some booze here and there and were initially had Jesus to help you become a better person and they often focus on how the church makes to a better father and a better husband and and you and I will help you with your career and like maybe that's true with the gospel. But that's not the point of the gospel.*Side benefit, but they can make that more of a primary focus of so discussed how and not so brief explanation about see it now versus before so I yeah I am was one of the things that I really had to see it on and focus on as I was studying through my theological courses that Cincinnati Bible seminary because something I really wanted to understand okay how how should we understand that God is love but God is also just right and the last thing I mentioned before, as I came out of the LDS church. I kind of took a detour through the more progressive type of Mormonism and I think that it was important to my journey, but it was you know it led me in all kinds of paths that that were to my mind now dangerous theologically right because it is kind of the brand Mormonism that says okay, maybe maybe traditional Mormonism places to hide an emphasis on an angry dog right towards Sammons and in those who allow sin to be septum, and therefore it results in my wrist is feeling the way that you and I have discussed my end.

But progressive Mormonism instead of kind of marrying the two concepts of God as loving God is just within the theological worldview. Rather, it goes the other direction says God is just love right and then and more like you were saying he just wants to make a better version of you still don't freak out about your stand so much.

It's not that big a deal to God.

He's specious to make out all things right anyway. So just just keep trying as hard as you can. Socialists, as I was studying through my theology courses though my my Prof. Dr. Jack Cottrell had a really interesting way of describing how the how the concept of God's love and does justice fit together and he points out that it been in and in the Bible God is described as love. God is love and also the God is described as just is just and that those attributes are not something that she has attained right through some long process of self fulfillment, but they are there attributes of his very nature right and so is similar to the idea presented in the book of Mormon. The gods justice cannot rob God's mercy, but the whole idea is that yes God loves his creatures that he loves when when he created.

He said it's it's a very good writer when he created humans and so he loves his creatures, but he is just and so he cannot because of his nature as it just being who cannot look lightly upon sin.

Sin must be punished. And so when when God's love and God is just nestling the fact that he is just confronts human sin that results in wrath right. God is angry towards Stan, but when God's love confronts human standard results in mercy and so how does God give mercy to us as humans without going against his very nature is just being to understand that that's where Christ and the atonement comes into play. But the interesting thing to note here, if I don't lose my train of thought is that and I didn't lose my train of thought ought to come back to where was I going with that.

I haven't gone the next question is if I come back to see so what is the danger of a theology that focuses focuses exclusively on the love of God and doesn't warn sinners of the wrath of God. Why think they're not big, tendency specially help former yesterday no focus so much on bias depends on how you experience forms because of the experience. Mormonism is like like a social club really doesn't have any threat of punishment for your sins, then you may have a reaction to say well we really folks just got that's what matters. Or if you felt like Mormonism where you were, slander, judgment just never good enough marriage since you want to go far away from that direction towards the love of God and just you know will avoid the idea punishment for sins altogether, and so on. That's kind of weird thing is, people Mormonism have varied experiences managing women between generations where they grew up and also just depends, but in general the problem of just focusing on God's love is that it's an incomplete picture. It when we look at the Mikey said, starting from the very beginning punishment for Adams to know God threat. He says if you sin and punishment for sin is death, but we don't see we don't see him immediately be sentenced to death, but we do see them starting the process of mortality and in gradually as they would die. But God did not immediately in their lives there so God did show mercy to but there is still a threat of death for sin. And so that's why you know we we do. We are mortal because because of the fall that that's one of the consequences LDS theology. To call that the first physical death I think is the fall where they went from a unmoral state I think is what I've heard because they were immortal in the sense of not yet mortal, unmoral state will mortal state right now and I would agree with that but in an hour in the state where we eventually will die, and as a consequence of the fall, but not only that but there's also the states of spiritual death. You know like being separated from God's presence is a kind of spiritual death. And for those who are cut off from God's presence eternally nuts in the second that I guess is what the Bible calls it the eldest biggest second spiritual death so there's always this looming threat of death for further just know for our sins if we just cannot completely strike that under the table and just focus entirely on how God is our Creator and father and held loves asking us to help us Nanette just ate it. I think it cheapens the gospel a bit now and undermines what Jesus actually had to come and do because things in Galatians are says you know I could still test numerous is Chris it is you guys on tree and so is a reference to Jesus outright. He had to die on the cross for sinners on behalf of sinners and so Jesus death was a demonstration of God's mercy yes join his love for all mankind. But it was also demonstration of God, pouring out his wrath on son and so I think we have to recognize both attributes of God were on display there fully. I do know people personally that I know very distasteful. This idea God poured out his wrath on his son. And so they completely reject any kind of notion of penal substitution are penalty given to Jesus, but I just don't know how you can reconcile some biblical passages like John 17 where Jesus is pleading for the father to remove the cup of wrath that he had given them to drink but nonetheless Jesus was sitting to the to the will of the father and so that that cup that he was drinking is God's wrath and he knew that's what he was praying and pleading and the real sweating blood he sweat in the garden is not to suffer for sins in the garden, but because he knew what he was going to go through you know on the cross is going to descend into the depths of Missourian and Helen death yell for God's people.

So I just I think you need you need understand both sides. You don't really understand who God is, we don't understand what the Gospels yeah yeah really grace. I think that you brought me back to where I was going with your comments, particularly when you pointed out the both of God's attributes, love and justice are at play at the cross right and that the wrath of God was poured out upon Jesus and that's what it means when when the Bible says he was a propitiation for our sins right she is death fulfilled the justice of God against sin, right and latter-day St. theology because it places an emphasis on in the way that this often plays out in conversation latter-day spaces.

Alas, the question you don't think that it's important as a Christian to obey God to follow the commandments and of course that's not true Christians do believe that Christ is Lord and we follow him and we submit to his will and his commandments right. But what would latter-day St. theology does is it places you were level of righteousness as what will determine whether or not you are saved and exalted Jesus is his life and death is life is an example to you as latter-day St. that that Allstate is the great exemplar, meaning that that they should follow him and be perfect as he is perfect right that's the goal. But that's a goal that they can't live up to, but they'll often balk at Christians if we say that we believe that Christ's death on the cross when an individual becomes a saved individual by placing trust and faith in Jesus Christ and receives that imputation of Christ's righteousness that there is now therefore no condemnation for that individual there in Christ and their past, present and future sins will be forgiven by the father because that person is in Christ latter-day St. doesn't have that hope they will often point out that they believe that when they baptized their past sins are forgiven, but then it is up to them to live a new life and so without this idea of Christ being a propitiation for the wrath of God.

You are as latter-day St. left, always feeling like you're not measuring up. You're not doing enough. So yeah, I was going was interesting is that you have to have that idea propitiation when you're talking about the two attributes of God, love, justice, and thank you for sharing that rising up Michael's article which our thinking is writing or in the process of writing.

I forget we had discussions about it.

Where where the gospel according to Mormonism is kind of like it's not really paying off the debts is just like applying for a much longer loan in IEEE extended out cycle cans of them to pay all your debts out by Monday. You get a thousand years to pay it off, but eventually had to pay it all off yourself and on Jesus, just the pages you like a down payment. You know he pays he pays that a creditor and then you gotta pay him back instead of just accepting the gift and yeah so it's it's yeah Scott said anything about all that how they don't really think that there's a satisfaction that I sent satisfaction, meaning like you know the wrath of another. The requirement of justice is not used your lights. I think don't know say that but then but then, though, at the same time, though also say why it's up to me to do this XYZ can't just begin to suspect Jesus to all for you, like they don't have the cake to where they want to have this this gospel of faithless works, but then yes claimant there. They believe are saved by grace, but then as soon as you agree with them and say yes to Scott's basic status is that while you works two dollars. A constant battle back and forth of trying to understand what exactly does they believe or what they say and I think they struggle within themselves.

Maybe that's why because they realize their works don't live up enough then they go back to the great range and then when they realize all my leaders it's on. I gotta do better than I actually work side bottom second internal struggle work. Yes, the mess that's exactly the conversation that the guys from cultus were having with with the guy from the Church of Christ of the grown-up church of Christ. So I'll post a link to the podcast episode in the nose for this episode will be instructive as well for latter-day Saints or former letters and solicited in July. Conversation is so can you think of people in church history who have sought to separate God's justice from his mercy he had early research as deeply as I should have but I mean I know it. More recently, you got there's something on the hyper grace movement. Kobe heard of that.

Like Joseph Prince is one of people and that and it's this idea goes in almost is like what the LDS think that evangelicals believe cracks like God just forgives you, you don't have to do anything. You know I have to ask.

He says he said in his book Prince that you have to ask for forgiveness. But God already gives you so this is, universal idea of like Paul does matter what you do.

God just forgives a loving, forgiving God and there's no requirements of nothing attached to it. So there's that. That's kinda most recently, but there's been groups like that history. Antinomian groups sent to know me and anti-meeting obviously against, and in almost from the Greeks against the law to put that together antinomian as guest law is simply God's law. So there's been antinomian since the beginning who have tried to undermine this idea that that you need to need to follow Christ ego may Christ send know that goes back all the way to the Gnostics at the Manichaeans where they would they would say that they were spiritual beings by virtue be spiritual beings. That's why they are saved, so they were kind of avoid doing any really works of charity whatsoever you or you know, serving people listen that you don't really need to do any of that because you're saying that and that's kind of like that goes even farther back you go back to James and James was probably writing against these have early Gnostic type groups that were trying to say that that know that you don't need works at all that and I just believe that's all. So yeah, I don't have a specific people in mind. Church history must afflict your seminary education has a mighty more than what I know you can fill in the gaps. That is, there's plenty to want the one in particular is think about was Marcy on early on deaf you know sought to reject the God of the Old Testament, as is an evil and wicked God and so rejected the Old Testament as a whole and have had a stripped-down collection of New Testament books that that the Marcy Knights accepted as is their canon may very well be that the Morris the developer the Marcy and I canon led to, the more official formulation of a broader Christian canon where the church came together and said you know what the what is it that would accept us as authoritative throughout all the church Marcy and you, in particular of the God of the Old Testament is evil and wicked tends towards some Gnostic beers and that's that's kind of a very early in Christian church history example of someone who was was trying to separate the this idea of the justice of God from the love of God are known to raise the question you know is God's is God's revelation of himself true in it and if it is, then you have to accept the whole counsel of God, which includes God's justice and God's love yeah it's yeah I forgot about my standing, I like. I was so somehow we changed canon did it for various reasons. I think remember if the Donatist of the Montanists where they kind of likes another. They believe there is just received new prophecies like that I can remember much else, but the Montanists not to go back in there somewhere someone more recently that this is kind of know how how influential she is now, but if you go back 1015 years. He was very influential is the Rob Bell and you know he wrote a book called love wins and Yoshi. He very much tries to push against the idea that there that the New Testament in particular teaches eternal conscious torment and in hell. And so his ideal his ideas. There's very much a very universalist idea in the same sense that of the latter-day same of you, of heaven, like everyone, everyone will be swept up in the love of God eventually and NASA.

More recent example of someone who is not holding true to God's own self revelation, prey enters the home. There's a whole universalist movement which kind of intertwined with Unitarianism leisure history about I got Mecca started but Joseph Smith's dad also courses universalist, so there's a long line of universalism in the past. The ad seems like they they a lot of them believe that God does know he doesn't grasp this part is rapid eventually you know that raffle be appeased and everybody will know come to him so sky just like the Gospels disliked shortening your prison sentence. I guess considerably by accepting Christ, we thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the other brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions. Clicking send a message at the top of the page. We would appreciate it if you give the page a lightning.

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