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Proof Texting the LDS Testimony

Outer Brightness /
The Truth Network Radio
November 7, 2021 12:01 am

Proof Texting the LDS Testimony

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November 7, 2021 12:01 am

In this episode, Matthew the Nuclear Calvinist and the Apostate Paul discuss the proof texts that are used within Latter-day Saint teachings regarding the LDS testimony. They ask questions of the texts, such as:

  • Are they being used in context?
  • What might they mean if they mean something different than how they are used in LDS teachings?

Come along with us for the ride.

Viewpoint on Mormonism
Bill McKeever
Viewpoint on Mormonism
Bill McKeever

Your right and him and fireflies will come back to this podcast this week talking about the LDS testimony before jumping to Matthew knives can catch up a little bit. It's been a while since we recorded in Matthew a few weeks yeah little bit. I don't deny are you I'm good I'm good how school Trina, sorry I am trying to survive the next four weeks I could deal. It's it's good were pretty busy. We were slower than normal, but this is the time of year that a lot of our large clients got to bed so it's keeping keep us quite busy on ice so you like to try to find contracts or whatever you call yeah yeah mostly for existing large clients.

They tend so we finished up all of our bids for my mostly for one 122 anything that's left is is maybe like a midyear effective date, but a lot of that of our larger clients like to go out early so there are out now from 11 2023. So just keep slow busy this week were to be talking about the LDS testimony.

This was a topic that one of our listeners. Nolan Sackett requested that we talk about a while back and were to be touching on the other two kinda scriptural LDS canned canonical passages that he called out as a topic that that those who have never been Latter Day Saints struggle a lot with as they as they interact with Latter Day Saints, Latter Day Saints bear their testimonies to them and you Matthew I'm sure you you have and I know I have fielded questions from never Mormons who don't understand what Latter Day Saints are doing and what they mean when they bearing their testimonies so really dig in the summer that but I thought this would be a good topic to follow on the past two weeks of our episodes which listeners have heard us talk about or be interviewed on the do theology podcast with Jimmy Howard and Jeremy mentioned to us when needed by this. Come on, do theology that she wanted to put to us some some blunt questions and he did on one of the questions that he asked us specifically was whether or not we had experienced a burning in our bosom, which is the way that Latter Day Saints are taught that they receive their testimony so we we answer that question in those episodes so you can listen to those if you want to hear Harris talk about that, but today were to dig into specifically to the scriptural passages. The canonical passages. The Latter Day Saints years and a lot of deer that are taught to Latter Day Saints with regards to testimony so the first one I think that we want to dive into is is really the bit that the main one which is Moron I tend three through 5 Right Rd. ice challenge.

So Matthew wanted to let listeners a little bit about your experience with us.

This passage was like I was a talk to you. Did you understand it to be all of that. Yeah I figure I'd start off with just reading it real quick so district restrictor filing S so this is the this thing passes that "any space that if the end of the book of Mormon, the very last chapter of his missionaries oriented investigators and will give it it's kind of like a promise that they follow these steps then they should receive a testimony of everything that's happened in the book, so I Moron I speaking the rice bowl that would exhort you that when you shall review sings the wisdom of God should read them that you would remember how merciful the Lord hath been at the children of men, the creation of Adam, even down until the time that you shall receive these things and ponder in your hearts, and we shall receive these things I would exhort you that you would ask God, eternal father in the name of Christ, he sees are not true and if shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent. Having faith in Christ will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth about things so we understood it has wanted to say was that it is exactly like I try to explain is that it's the promise that if you if you read and ponder about the things of the corpsman. If you pray about it.

Then you will receive confirmation by the power of the Holy Ghost, that is true by some fashion so it could be one way or another, but the Holy Ghost would somehow reveal to you directly.

That the book is true from God and so this is the promise that they give to all prospective members of the church, which they call investigators and so it doesn't really say that you need to read every single thing it says when you shall receive the same so I'm guessing it would apply the after release read some of it is not just as much is holding the book in your hands never opening pages. I guess you have to be some part of it and then prayers involved in the end, if you follow the steps in God will is is not in us. I'm a beer could, but it's a different will reveal to by the public as it is true as it nets each part of missionary work because were trying to coordinate when the core beliefs of this church is a monster. So if you believe courts true then just as profitably does profit then you got restored to church.

There is a Smith and if that's true then it's the one true church on your sideswipe so important for LDS missionaries to really focus on Moron I promise I never assertively remember as a missionary focusing on it myself. It's something that you read multiple times with every investigator you interact with because you want to get the message across that they should pray to know if the book of Mormon is true and you know the like you were saying that that the promises that it's it's not a maybe if you if you pray about it, you're going to receive a witness so what I thought was interesting is to look at the passage in context and I know I am a bit embarrassed that I've never noticed this before but when I was reading over this passage in preparation for this episode and in looking at Newport part of the thing we talked about a little bit before the part of the thing about growing up of the Aston and experiencing Scripture as it is a Latter Day Saints is that you're not really taught to look at context maybe maybe Latter Day Saints now are a little bit more than maybe we were in the past Matthew.

But growing up like an especially like is a missionary Moron I tend three through five.

You really ought to just look at the passage that you're given right, especially as it does your teaching it to investigators. But if you look at Moron I chapter tenant begin at the beginning and a novel concept, I know. But if you look if you look at verses one to they say now I Moron I write something right somewhat, as seen with me good and I write unto my brethren, Lamanites, and I would that they should know that more than 420 years of passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ. And I seal up these records after I've spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you a minute goes into verse three through five. What you read. So in context this challenge. This is promises really to the Lamanites is to according to the book of Mormon narrative of the descendents of Lehman and Lemuel who were brothers of Nephi at the beginning of the book of Mormon and so you know, the question is if you look at this passage in context is this promise really for everyone what you think Matthew five seems like the strict context is speaking directly to the Lamanites. I'm guessing it's Lamanites who are kind of in our time-ish to receive the record because I don't think using in the Lamanites that during his time because while they all trying to kill him, so I'm guessing it's those who would receive the book much later down is to just come is interesting that this written know according to Moron I to the Lamanites to his brother and Lamanites to soak thinking about how the how the LDS church uses as a promise to everyone just kind of interesting. So when you when you share this passage with investigators as a missionary.

Matthew what was that like to. How did they receive it. Did you have a newer and Belgian right so did you have investigators that received it and and prayed in and received the witness or was it a mixed bag.

What was what was your experience yeah I don't recall many instances where they actually followed this and had no idea experience or hoping for. I do remember having times I felt like the Holy Ghost was witnessing to them in other ways you know, whether through a testimony that was shared or through you know showing a movie with them about Jesus or sharing the first vision nosed out those workspaces.

I think that's when the spirit really touch people. I didn't really have many experiences. What part of time just to get to talk to me first well but yet I don't really recall any specific circumstances where we gave them rise promise and then you know they thought they prayed and that they got the answer.

We did talk to some people who make prayer is very foreign to them.

I think that someone who is from China and you know I get the idea of having a God in heaven they could talk to us very foreign to him. So we would try to teach him. He just couldn't couldn't understand prairie conceit appointment so there's a disconnect there, but he at least tried you least try to do it but he said he didn't get anything out of it so yeah, the extent of from my memory. Anyway, you guys. It was something that challenged me on my mission because as I can think of to investigators in particular both for my first area.

The first one I was named George and she was the was a Hungarian man, middle-aged and Nina took care of his mom who didn't live with them, but he lived on his own, had never been married and and she was quite lonely and his unit. He had been through several sets of missionaries prior to my coming on the scene and you know he likes to meet with us and he met with us pretty, pretty much weekly as apartment and we were enough read to read with him from the various passages of the book of Mormon. He had read all the way through the book of Mormon multiple times at the time I was there meeting with Hammond night we read Moron I tend three through five countless times with them and challenge them to pray, he, she would and he would he really was always very honest with us, he said he would tell us that he didn't receive what the Arnica witness when he would pray about it but he liked to be with us and he felt good morning met with us is what he was saying, but he didn't receive what he thought was a testimony in response to praying about the book of Mormon. He enjoys reading from it, but that he was very kind of upfront and honest with us, and to the point where he would he would tell us God. I don't want you to be disappointed but I'm not about getting what you're what you're expecting me to get that he did later on get baptized after I had left the area but there was another young young man. We met with them last low has not done Hungarian short not to Lexi kind of the nickname and we met with Lazio for several months.

My first area he was studying to be an engineer at one of the universities there in Budapest and he was the same way you know we would read Moron attempted to five with them multiple times and challenge them to pray and then keep QT was very honest with us still never felt like he was getting a witness to his prayers, even to the point where he was at one point, ready to know cut off meeting with us because he didn't think we were getting anywhere but here. We continue to be with him and he also eventually ended up getting baptized, but not because you neither one ended up getting baptized because they felt like they had received a testimony in some miraculous way by praying about the book of Mormon so that's going to the next passage doctrine and covenants 9839. So let's read that one and no, I'll take this from Matthew the case of document comes 9839 says, but behold I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind. Then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause the your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore you shall feel that it is right but is it not be right.

You shall have no such feelings but you shall receive the stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which was wrong. Therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred stated be given you from me so Matthew what was your stance with this passage as a latter-day St. Houck. How was it used and taught in the LDS church while they know if they were if it is in a teacher seminary student teacher that industry. They went go in detail show and describe how it was part of how Oliver Cowdrey was trying to translate for the book of Mormon is trying to receive revelation of just misted so you would try to just sit before and hope, pray that Scott given the words and so when nothing came by Joseph Smith kind of chastise him a little bit� Us Unionists and then he had this revelation and wrote down his SI was theirs excited me and so part of that was explaining that you have to study it out your mind and so you have to read and consider and think about no ponder and pray about whatever it is you're trying to know or understand. And she asked for truth, then God will make your bosom burn within you. So I feel like I had that experience personally when I read the book of Mormon.

If you look at that rate was about. I knew a lot of DS personally didn't have such an experience. You have to had maybe like a moment of clarity or some kind of sensation are just some kind of they just had this feeling that it was right and I spell it the more mature. Some people don't really have that experience at all, but they still believe that so that's that's how I understood it, how I was taught about it and it's an application specifically like us at the book of Mormon translation is going on in 918 29 Emily was gauging 29 but you know LDS often use that know their play. Also, it's just general knowledge or knowledge about whether the word is true or whether the church is true or Joseph Smith is a prophet so they apply to a wide range of of the things Reagan if you're seeking to know truth seller Calgary was Joe's describe right she desired.

Also to be able to translate portions of the book of Mormon as they were working together and so this was, as you said, a revelation to Joseph Smith, kind of chastising Oliver Cowdrey for his lack of faithfulness is lack of understanding that she needed to do more than just expect an answer would, have decided on his mind and is a bit strange to know because what was he supposed to study here hunting and are quite understood but psyche had, you know, he could really read the characters because most the time of placement front of anyone. If he did he didn't know the language, yet something I never quite understood you as I say, nothing will. How was he supposed to study it out to Chad, exactly, is going make that exact point and when you think about you know the statements from Martin Harris in terms of how the translation was Don and I with Joseph Smith having the seer stone placed in a hat and placing his face into the hat to exclude the light and then knew that he would see the words on the stone and dictate them. You know exactly how does studying it out in your mind coming to come into play if the words are being given to you in that manner so it's it's kind of a difficult passage to deal with those as a former Mormon but definitely when I was a latter-day St. It was used in the way that that you have explained Matthew and and and that's why you know, as is latter-day St. growing up, I expected that if I prayed about the book of Mormon which I did that the way that an answer would come to me would be as a burning in the bosom right so anxiously that the way that my onset is one point of the low end of my mission president explain it is that all these kind of first 10 or 20 chapters there kind of foundational chapters to the LDS church as of the way that he can explain it was like you know these are really meant for that specific moment ultimately they were meant for teaching the same sample latter-day Saints how to receive revelation so maybe it does make sense in that specific instance of traveling look Mormon but he explained it a sing like well this is how you know this is a question or problem that came up to solve the problem of how do we know what's forgot thing for us for everybody, so that specific application. Mina makes much sense. But the broad application is what was what his original purpose for why that was something, since that's how he explained it may be that kind of help to answer those questions are like okay I guess in a sense I guess worry too much about it. I guess it does make sense, but I'd see it sort of as a post hoc explanation, though, because it was given a specific instance and sends enough to get a look at the context of the kind of applies specifically to Oliver Cowdrey's circumstances when he was going through right death race so so we covered kind of Moron. As promised, and then you know the passage that she is to to teach latter-day Saints how they can expect to receive the answer tomorrow. As promised, let's now look at alla 3221 in the book of Mormon method. Then we'll talk a little bit about. I should've had it open, 32, verse 21, and now as I said concerning faith. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of.

Therefore, if you have faith ye hope for things which are not seeing literature � so this passage is kind of like uses a parallel passage to Hebrews 1 sound sort of the Millers sort of similar and familiar to readers and it's it's a little bit different though and and what is says but you have the whole of Alma chapter 32 it's it's one that you as a as an obvious missionary will read with investigators because it's all about the concept of faith and and Al McKenna starts out comparing faith to us even know how to you as the individual in order to grow your faith, have to allow it to be nurtured and that defendant will grow and and and eventually growing in in in Joe grow in knowledge and that more and more faith is just as time goes on as you as a kind of give space for that seed to grow within kind of exultation within that chapters is to give space riots. That's it's almost commentary. Maybe on that on the parable of the sower right that did you as a is an individual should receive best exhibits that's cast out as good soil and allowed to grow within you and not not tear it out by unbelief. But this passage specifically Matthew would you think of it, and as I said concerning faith.

It is not to have a perfect knowledge of things. Therefore, if you have faith and hope for things which are not seen, which are true help.

How is this passage used in the LDS church, and what was your expense with the growing up way back I saw was like a general principle kind of soy thing where if it's just speaking broadly of how something is true, but you can visibly see it. Faith is to believe that is sure to have her to hope that it's true but it's also kind of hope for the future hope for promises that have been given to you. They can tangibly seer experience so so that could be what are you trying to know if look Mormon is true that could be also having faith that you get through this life you get to see Emily father again.

They could be believing whether something leaders taught is really by revelation or not. So sometimes you might have doubts about that or it would say something the past pass of this leaders are current LDS leaders. You might not quite understand exactly what they're saying teaching. They just have to cannot have faith that God is leading them. And that's true account of things I has a broad application broad know different ways.

It could be applied but the general principles to study even though you don't understand, and if it's true, you should believe that but then it always consequences to know: how do I know you know whether something is something that I see is true, but I know but I can't see it but after believe it because true but I don't have a way to test it to know whether it's true or not make sense again like that the way to test whether something is true basically comes back like you're talking about Myrna's promise to lift something on and obviously your top bothered me is up to me to pray about it, receive confirmation from God that it was true rather than just believing it so I don't I don't think it's asking LDS necessarily have a blind faith, but it is asking for them to leave everything is true even if you can't. If you have no tangible or solid proof that it is true that good.

Yeah, there's a little bit of the maybe a little bit of circular of the circular reasoning or just just the UN that feel like you're going in a circle with this because this this passage does does kind of encourage Latter Day Saints to have faith even if you can't see the object of your faith right and so that that sounds a little bit like blind faith, but it also says that faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things right which is something that you know I really struggled with. As I was leaving the LDS church and and met Beverly before I was leaving, but as I was really kinda wrestling through and what is it mean to have a testimony of the book of Mormon. You know, and this brings us to really how how the LDS people and and in culture and church uses testimony within its message within its witness within its outreach to people not of that faith, and any and people within the faith. So no food for those of our listeners who may not know once a month in the LDS church. They hold what's called the fast and testimony meeting and members of the LDS church fast and they give fast offerings which are to be equal to the amount saved from fasting for two meals and then during the church service. That's as as Jeremy Howard could have explained when we were on the do theology podcasts, like open mic night right anyone in the congregation can stand up and bear their testimony and the language that is used by people when they stand a bear.

Their testimony is the language of I know I know the book of Mormon is true. I know Jesus is the Christ. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true church on the face of the earth. These are the affirmations that are shared often during those fast and testimony meeting and when you when you start using language like I am no the implication is that the person has received that spiritual witness promised and rely 10 335 with regard to the book of Mormon with and with regard to other things that they are are saying that they know that if you think about their Alma 3221 were says faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.

It's almost a contradiction that Latter Day Saints will stand and and and claim to know something that now is his unseeing like to claim to know that the book of Mormon is true, what is admitting is admitting that is historically accurate that it says that it's an actual historical record of people who came to the Americas from Jerusalem and creative. Here, a large group of people to large people groups that warred with one another. What does it mean that you know that it's the word of God that it's Scripture in the same sense that the Bible is so there are various ways that you could conceive of and what it means to say, I know the book of Mormon is true. But again, when you getting into that and using that language.

I know, and that this is what I struggled with in particular towards the end of my mission is know you do taught as a missionary to bear testimony to investigation to those who your teaching and so and I was out there in Hungarian saying I entered all and I know and then following that up with the book of Mormon is true in the church. The church of Jesus Christ is the only true church on the face of the earth and know those types of claims and I really didn't know that and I didn't have the experiential knowledge of that I didn't have the evidential knowledge of that but I was out there using the words I know and I didn't have the spiritual witness of that and so I got to the point on on mission where I was stopped, I stopped using that language altogether and just started saying I believe because I felt like that was more true to Alma 3221 right and I wasn't claiming to have a perfect knowledge was rather claiming to believe what I what I've been taught and what I perceived as a as a young Latter Day Saints. So thoughts on that Matthew among us in the yellow he said resonated with me. I mean, I think. Traditionally, when they said the car mystery them at that. All that is true, that is historically accurate that is inspired of God that he came to Joseph Smith that it is what but it is what it claims to be, but now it I think a lot of what they would call themselves a progressive performance as a reader in a defined maze of historical inaccuracies or some anachronisms you don't think they kind of limit that definition to Congress that maybe it's theologically correct or it's you know I spit the teacher spiritual truth, so it is kind of already being redefined by some summer. Many Latter Day Saints as to what they mean by when they sitting know something and yet, like said when we go out we say that we know it, but we don't. But it's so focused on the spiritual witness that it doesn't really matter. It generally mattered and you had any kind of physical evidence to prove it except my God told me was true and so that's that. Maybe I doesn't come through clear enough to our investigation we say we know you know I think a lot of times a note they would ask me this and how do you know we didn't get just doesn't compute with them. How do you know I mean I Study to be gone to South America or wherever it slowly takes place in CNET so that is a big question I came up there for sure. And that's the question is, is what I serve the struggle with because I didn't have that kind of a kind of knowledge and assumed critical to me that in a based on the claims of the book of Mormon itself makes for for its narrative that it has to be true.

In that sense or it's worth not right so so let me ask you this know if we kinda gone through the main passages from LDS cannon that are used to connect this connect to foundations of this idea of having a testimony with regards to my own eyes promised right that's that's specific to the book of Mormon. Were you ever challenged to pray to know the truthfulness of the Bible in the same way that Latter Day Saints are challenged to praise know the truthfulness of the book of Mormon Annette and met him specifically admitting when you're Latter Day Saints River challenged to do that is good question. I thought about it and I don't specific instances, if you would ask Latter Day Saints and probably sell yet if I suspect the Bible does Mormon, but they don't really focus so much on praying to no one in the Bible is true because I guess if you prayed another book or minister than they automatically assume that means. Also, the Bible is true. Well to an extent or another Etzler discussion, but yen now is really something I experience very much, and I can recall about you and I don't recall ever being challenged to write about the Bible in the same way that you're constantly challenged to print out the book of Mormon.

I think that's interesting, and occasionally I'll see if someone ask Latter Day Saints and then like a Facebook group if they've ever prayed to know the Bible is true and in Latter Day Saints. Sometimes will say yes sometimes will say no sometimes I get an answer similar to yours working on painting of the book of Mormon is true and got a witness and so therefore the Bible is true because Marais 10 325 specifically says that you should think about how merciful God is been from the fall of Adam and to the time that you receive these things so Bible is kind of included in that thinking about portion of that right so it kinda gets lumped in there but noticing it's interesting that that the focus is on praying about the book of Mormon and then there's not really the same kind of challenge for the Bible so personnel is given to the Bible passages.

The New Testament passage that is not that Latter Day Saints will use in conjunction with the passages from the broader LDS cannon to talk about testimony. So the first one is Hebrews 11 one and Micah said before this, parallel to Alma 3221 in that it's it's sort of like a summary of what faith is. So Hebrews 11 one. Sam Dettmer says and renewed reading in the KJV now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So how how did Latter Day Saints use this passage. Matthew did you do recall generally use it very much.

To be honest, a scene was like you'd read the passage and all mind any Rita and Hebrews. Once I see it confirms your basically teaching the same thing. You know like if something is true, but he can't see, it requires faith to believe it kind of thing since what I remember. Anyway, so let me ask you then doesn't do you think it teaches the same thing have thought. I thought about that. Maybe there's some overlap there it's it's goes on in on a threat.

The chapter to talk about the many things that giants of the faith sicking before us. What they accomplish their faith and starts up. I talk my health or faith. The worlds were framed by the word of God's of the things which are seen were not made of things which do appear so is uncertain. Since the canal and God literally created something that had not existed. Had it not existed before. And so it's not really so much on application of knowing whether something is true or not, because it was it's the speaking of God actually making something from nothing. They goes on to talk about how by faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice again by faith unit was translated they should not see death is not found just got it translated them for for his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God without faith it is impossible to please him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So yeah, this is a passage. This is a I thought a lot but I think it's ultimately our faith is grounded in God because all of these people you know they they did something by faith, but ultimately our faith as we placed in God and so I don't think it's really getting a promise as much. You know, like a promise I go if you know if you believe in something, then you'll know the truth of that cargo be given.

The treatment is just like saying that now by faith. These people are able to act accomplish God's will.

So much of that answers your question really, but there might be some overlap there with the eldest understanding of, but I think it's more than what we are taught is licensed Yeah I was digging into the passage you know what's interesting is this is now faith is the substance of things hoped for rape though the Greek word that this transit is substance here is the type of Stasi's right. That's the same word that is used in the Nicene Creed to represent the three persons of the Trinity right there's three hypo Stasi's three persons of the Trinity. Now the way that is looking for something that in a manic analytical lexicon that I have for the Greek New Testament and on the way.

It describes that there is that in in Hebrews 11 one in particular, it gives substance to reduce reality to what is hoped for by and in so you to kinda summarize that in in a way that that enough Christian apologist Frank Turk what is and is episode earlier today on and what is faith in the way he disguises in particular with Hebrews 11 one because he said you know that the atheists will often use this this passage try to say see you believe in blind faith as Christians you just you just hoping for things that are not seen and you know he's like death in context, the passage really is talking about trust in God. Based on what is already previously known about God, which is why the rest of the chapters you noted goes on to talk about the giants of the faith is laying out these are the things that that God is already done and therefore having faith in God's is trusting in a future reality based on what we already know of God as someone who is faithful to keep us as promises so I was little bit different than than what seems to be being taught in in Elma 3221, which was destined to be a little bit more like you're just trusting in in things just hoping for in us the house, 22, 21.

Say it again I don't want to miss misquoted and as a secretary faith. It is not a perfect knowledge of things.

Therefore, if you have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true and I guess it's it's there's a similarity there. But what I would say is that it's I think the type of trust that's being discussed that the type of faith is being discussed in Hebrews 11 is is a bit different than just hoping for things which are not seen its its understanding that there is evidence as well and and so also Elma 32 is as we talked about it's all about growing your faith right that the more faith you have, the better off you'll be. According to how the 32 and you have to give to give place for the seed to grow but faith in the biblical sense is his endeavor use in terms of its it's not like you're better off if you have more faith right that it's the object of your faith that that saves you by faith in Jesus Christ saves you as the object of your faith, having known one person having the faith of a mustard seed another person having the faith the size of the mountain.

The person with the faith the size of mountain isn't near isn't saved more than the person with the faith the size of a mustard seed right because that's the object of your faith that the Savior so thoughts on that. Yeah, yeah, I don't have much time. That is great yeah it's the one I was just as looking up as a vital hub in the ad like our wood studies so I don't want to secular not as good. Add to that. They say tear the word down and info which means under STEMI to stand so they could means like as in a bust.*In this context could be standing under guaranteed agreements got the title deed so it's kind like a legal beagle type language where it's a promise to God is literally going to fulfill a contractual agreement where there's a legal legitimate claim to do something and I God will accomplish it so ate it gives kind like a more concrete promise rather than just saying well enough trust and then they know everything will work out, think it's more like God is giving concrete promises and yucky fulfill those promises, which is more along the lines of what I think will talk about the aperture. The analytical lexicon that I'm looking at also uses that the title deed language that you were just referencing and you want one other thing to note is you know hypo Stasi says it is a word that is used three times in Hebrews.

So it's a word that that the author of the believers I will you take that to be Paul or someone else use know a number of times and one of the other times that it the author uses.

It is in Hebrews 13 which is talking about Jesus and the it's it's good to read the whole getting of that chapter I God who ascended times diverse Manor stake in times past to the fathers by the prophets had in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he appointed heir of all things, by whom he did. He made the worlds who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person and the word transitive person. There is hypo Stasi's so again here what they the idea is being conveyed is that there is reality being given to this to God who is invisible to us in the person of Jesus Christ. Right.

The person of Jesus Christ in the world is the reality of God to us.

And so it's it's it's an interesting way that that word is used both there and in chapter 1 of Hebrews in the chapter 11 it it's meant to convey something more than just a blind faith it's meant to convey a faith that's just faith in things that are not seen but the faith and things are not seen that is given reality in the world and the way the goddess worked in the world both in the past and in the present time.

Jesus Christ meant missing our contest on like to walk with Jesus when he is willing national born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in accordance commonly referred to as the all of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ as our podcast brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own comes to us from without. This is to share our journeys of faith God has done in joining us to his son, glad you found this histogram right James 15 Matthew Valerie Dolly pulled up her quick James 15 says if any of you lack wisdom. What about, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men lit room liberally and upbraid not and it shall be given him. So this passage of Scripture is used a lot by Latter Day Saints. Mainly because Joseph Smith in his later recounting of his first vision said that reading this passage in the Bible is what sent him to the Grove and in New York to pray and to know which of the churches he should join all of that is not in his earlier retellings of the of the event has earlier retellings of the event are focused on his own individual salvation and his pain for you to be saved about them later on he cast the idea of that experience in in terms of getting to know which of all the churches history join and so you he supposedly read this passage of Scripture, and that sent into the to the woods to pray. So how was the Scripture used in the latter-day St. teaching. With regards to testimony. Matthew yet swimming is directly tied in a set of justice, personal experience, because he felt like oil lease in his teaching, 38 history.

He described it that way and that was just so confused.

Nobody's fighting and nobody nobody could get along so he's like well you know I'll just keep doing my thing seem like I can't is expressing that he was just kind of going to search Richard himself and it was at passage that entered into his heart more forcefully or more powerfully if you have than it ever did in the heart of man, and so United explains that that's how you experience it, that it was something just completely consume them, which inspired him to go to the growth trees and pray in this race was the first vision with God in Jesus, so it made me usually title that experience. I say well just like he just liked that raid to know that know which church to join.

You can also pray to know the truth of the book of Mormon, or that of the church so can a similar tumor on his promise, as I guess you're right. Promise to come. Extension of that good yeah yeah for sure definitely. I recall you speaking with people in train stations and bus stations anywhere were lots of people were traveling when I was a missionary in Budapest and town squares and and and reading with them from the Joseph Smith testimony pamphlet in on his experience of reading this passage and feeling the need to go and pray so what's the context of this passage choose James writing to touch another bitmap theory will me to yeah I was looking at the print. Because like I was thinking about in no time on this passage writing when I arrived in my mission. The mission home is like when the last people he interviewed the president like you know we had a really long flight overseas tree know so like music okay will interview you and then were done to go upstairs and sleep and that's everybody. As a last people is like well okay I promise to do so.

Sit in our Bible as a first like probably one of the first Bible verses freshly memorized just sitting in her eyes. Sign up yeah he says is in the Frankford I go to English and that is running to the 12 tribes been dispersed as though it says in English very 12 tribes which are scattered abroad guessing our just bees speaking to fellow Jews, primarily ending. Obviously I will be fellow believers who believe in Christ also yeah yeah so yes you got the Babylonian captivity right in the history of Israel and Judah in the southern kingdom of was carried away and before that the northern kingdom was carried away in Syria so get those those scattering's him and even with the return from Babylon. Not all of the people who were carried captive into Babylon returned right some of them, and in some ways benefited from being in Babylon.

You know they were working in the Kings Ct., Mecca thing and some didn't return so in some you know probably had no intermarried and and so the risk there was familial reasons to stay in so that not everyone returned to to Jerusalem when when the when they were allowed to. And so, yes, is writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad all over.

They were they were all over the Middle East. That point so I ended Sandy's not. He's not tying you all a here's the Bible in operation. Alister, you must write yeah and you know what is the context of his writing unity goes on in verse two say my brother and count it all joy when you fall into that to divers temptations knowing that knowingness that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing so he's kind is client kind of calling out that you are a big part of the New Testament message part of the hope of Israel, looking forward to the Messiah was that the Messiah would in a kind and and their captivity. You know, there were some there were some Jews that did believe that Israel was still in spiritual captivity.

Even though they were no longer in Babylonian captivity. You know Aten prior to the incarnation of Jesus, so is kind of kind of calling that outright that like that. The history of Israel has been one of challenges and and trials of of faith and is is reminding his his readers of that as they is he kind of greets them in any says if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and operate if not initially given him, let him ask in faith, nothing wavering for giveaway birth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. So as I studied this passage and and kind of the context and the lexical meaning of it. The word wisdom kind of stands out there. The way that Joseph Smith took that passage was. He lacked wisdom as to which of the churches he should join. So that's what he was going to pray about and so the question is, what it was the biblical understanding of what wisdom means right wisdom in the biblical sense is application right there is the word of God and then wisdom is the application of the word of God.

It's the so what right you got some of you, some preachers will say you know what's so you know how are things what is a name you like anything and then the so what is what it means to their shearers as their preaching the word of God.

You know what you do with this. That's what wisdom is in the biblical sense and so you James, calling out for his listeners like Esther's readers like I said, hey, our history has been a tough one. You know, and if you lack wisdom, ask of God, to give as gifts to everyone I so what is James saying what is what is James telling his readers to ask for when he tells them to to ask for wisdom, and as I was looking at the lexical understanding of what wisdom is in the biblical sense and removing the in the Greek and in the Hebrew what that with that word and concept mentors.

It's a it's an understanding of history from a godly perspective right and so James, saying the future lacking an understanding of what God is doing in history that Ascot you take a minute and strongman in a latter-day St. position and look at the way looked look at the fact that you know Myrna 10 335 uses the term recent uses the word wisdom, one could argue, I suppose that because of the way that Myrna 10 335 tells us listeners to think about the way God is active and think about his mercy from the time of Adam down until their reading the book of Mormon.

One could argue that holding of the book of Mormon is using wisdom, and in the biblical sense, but to kinda shoot that down a little bit even on trying to strongman the way that Myrna 10 325 uses the word wisdom is this. If it be wisdom in God which is kind of like saying if it could be God's will that you read this things, not necessarily that was and is being used in the in the correct biblical sense. There, but anyway James 125 James 15 not an exhortation to just pray about any old thing you want to know is true it's it's it's an exultation from James to his listeners to pray for wisdom to see what God is doing in and in history. Basically, I also think is he's joining the Jews who will be assumed to have probably some portion of the law or they have some access to a God is Artie revealed is not saying okay closer close germ scrolls no close what God is.

Artie said just pray to know you know he's probably he's probably exhorting them occasional for wisdom consider our past. Consider, you know Moses the child to enter Abraham his test date.

Consider everything is gone before us and pray for God to help you understand how that's going to help you now your trials today as I think I see you get. I know there are probably other support to test this, but it feels like when they used often when missionaries use this passage that investigators ask and what they're saying is okay read something now close the book and Mike just ask God to tell you it's true, but Mike said it's not it's not asked is not telling you to ask you something spirit saying okay Yorty know God's law, you know, God spoke, you know it yet people came before us what they've taught Ascot help you apply it to what you did dealing with like yeah chemistry or anguishing right final one final note is not final one second to last Galatians 5 2223 stock must read and talk about how Latter Day Saints use it okay.

Galatians 5 already for their official website. Just I know that I'm a add anything to it.

Faith June 23 but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance against such there is no law.

So yeah, in terms of what we would share this with as Latter Day Saints.

So as physical as missionaries. Layout stands at pray if you follow these instructions like I usually use the junction with James.

One or run a tent if you read this and you follow instructions you pray, then these are the gifts or the signs of the spirit that speaking to you is telling the truth. So if you have any one of these or any combinations that means a God is talking to you sets out, explain it suck at peace. Temperance, although you know not sure I feel temperance but you feel gentleness, goodness, faith's love, joy, peace, really. If you feel any of those things that's the spirit work as a spirit is not going to make angry it's not going to make you feel jealous so I desire things so if you feel these things must come from God because that's likely to come from Saba you did.

You counties in a similar way, are yeah exactly like that is as a missionary in the missionary training center that's exactly how we were taught to use it and I spoke about Georgian and glossy earlier and that that's exactly how we use it with them right. They would both tell us that they enjoyed meeting with us. They felt good when they met with us and therefore we would use this passage in Stacy that's you may not be getting a direct answer when you're praying about the book of Mormon, but those good feelings that you have when were meeting with you and teaching you that means the spirit is telling me that these things are true reality is that the good feelings they had just could've been you know that they had some some guys who were combined at that were friendly and give them some companionship, once a week. You know lots.

You know was an engineering student. He was, he had he had friends of course but you know we were. We were very important to him that the that the relationship that investigators build with missionaries is sometimes really important to them in their in their personal lives. It becomes of us a form of friendship and there's nothing wrong with that but it shouldn't be used as a reason for them thinking that that the LDS church is true of the book of Mormon is true that that's kind of what you what you do with investigators into it. Looking back the way we used Galatians 522 and 23.

Given that so many investigators tend to get attached in an interpersonal way with with the missionaries they interact with.

It seems a bit manipulative to me and said to kinda use those good feelings of friendship and companionship you develop with for that investigators develop with missionaries as a way to kinda kind of backdoor no back into this idea that they have been out of the testimony of the truthfulness of the church and its in one sense it's it's yeah it's a little bit duplicitous I think to say that if you have these feelings that must be from God. He said it's a discount like a false dichotomy where it's like well if you don't have these feelings in a soft and don't have the spirit, if you do have these feelings, and it must be from the spirit. But it always talk about precepts is not always wrenches my brain or my faith in.

I would and I talked on LBS about this and now struggle at that site walk it when I watch a movie that's really moving powerful. I feel those same feelings I had went on a spring about the book of Mormon and so it is true, but I know that it's a fictional film, it's not true. So is it disparaging to tell me something about it.

Like other good things be shared in it that are true or is God actually revealing to me that what's happening here did happen you know any lenders will be confusing like you know a radio where the signal keeps getting my folding on the stations can overlap us are getting signals from multiple sources. That's one thing I really struggle with. To me it seemed quite obvious to me at least, like well if you're angry because he continue on.

It says not actually burst one, 20, 21, you know, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations measure that is to Jim's, will it if he for me but wrath stripes, editions, heresies, endings, murders, darkness, those are all bad things and obviously does not come from God so made sense to me like okay bad feelings don't good things come from God, but sometimes good feelings come when there's not really a clear message as to why those good feelings, that's was was rough for me so I don't yet similar situations like that doesn't struggle with her while yeah definitely and will kinda get into that in another and another episode for sure what I thought was interesting about this passage is still looking at in context. The prior verses are all talking about the works of the flash the things that are contrary to the law, right, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath stripes, editions, heresies and beatings, murders, drunkenness filings, and such like, and it goes on through all of those right. Those are the things that are against the law recommend that it gives the fruit of the spirit and the end of verse 23 says against such there is no law. It's interesting though that like did you ever get into conversation with with investigators about why the end of verse 23 says against such there is no it's kind of weird I recall thinking back on it sharing that these two particular verses with with investigators is kind of weird to stop reading at the end of verse 20 is your like against such there is no law kinda seems like it should leave the question in your mind like with whatever talking about here is what why is it suddenly talk about law when you haven't read the previous verses that in any case, it just just kinda calls up for me the idea in the way that Latter Day Saints use these passages and are taught to use these passages, especially as missionaries do not really talk to go into the context of much of the passages it's it's it's really just use these passages in this particular way to make this particular point to your investigators, and don't go any further than that and the kind of the reason that that happens I think is it's also from another passage in the book of Mormon that Latter Day Saints can get this way of dealing with with Scripture. It's first Nephi 1923 and that passage says this and it's Nephi writing this as I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses, but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord, the Redeemer, I did read on to them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah fretted. Like in all scriptures, unto us, that it might be for profit and learning and so this idea of likening the Scriptures to ourselves. It's it's a particular particular to Latter Day Saints. This idea of saying okay even though there's this context to Scripture working to take it and liken it to ourselves in it and it's given be relevant to us.

Now of course within Christian preaching right there is the so what right there is the application the wisdom like we were talking about, but first Nephi 1923. Sort of gives Latter Day Saints license to kinda written passages from their context and just apply them to themselves without without concern for the context of talking about a little bit with D&C 939 with a specific dollar Calgary but Latter Day Saints uses in the way.

To suggest that everyone should expect the burning in the bosom in order to know truth in the same number like 10 3335 with a supposedly written to the Lamanites, but the use of a universal way to be a promise to anyone who reads the book of Mormon and then also know the way that they use biblical passages as well. Galatians 5 2223 using this particular way liken it to yourself. It doesn't matter that there's context around it that Beverly explains better what Paul is getting out in that letter and in especially with relation to substring because that that letter is the law and and and what relation Christians have to law now is so important to that letter and what Paul is saying within that letter that ticketed grab those two verses, even the part that says against such there is no law and not really explain what you're talking about or what Paul was talking about the whole chapter and just use those verses to try to save his business how you feel the spirit and if you feelings good things is the spirit without regard for for Paul's overall argument is kind of that the particular Latter Day Saints Way of dealing with Scriptures and liken it to yourself so they were disappointed one make any thoughts on that before going to our final passage, Matthew, and on-screen.

I mean sometimes comes to Christians Bible studies can fall that fall where you just read a passage and say what is this PDU and also ship try to avoid as it's possible that Fisher right so the final passage is Luke 2432. I can't remember who read last Matthew Simon to do the obvious gospel doctrine thing and assign you to read. I get his mercy and 24, 32 there they said one to another, did not our heart burn within us while he talked of this by the way, you might be open to us the Scriptures so do do you recall how this passage was used in healthiest teaching method would you recall using it in a burgeoning way as a missionary. Probably just must remember it being used as confirmation of the D&C chapter 9 was for trucks but higher.

Bart was with burn within you know something is true so yeah just kind of a confirmation. You must attempt such as missionary, he knew we were taught to stay as much as we can in the book of Mormon and then if you don't go to the Bible to cut a conferment of record says but then try to get back in the book was most possible sets, how to use it is like a confirmation text of the book with the doctor because it that exactly the type recall using it as well and entire going see it used by Latter Day Saints and Facebook groups now if if it is an evangelical Christian challenges Latter Day Saints on their testimony, and says something like it, you can't trust your feelings feel that they made, they may cite the Jeremiah passage. Note that the heart is with the above all things can know it right.

And though the Savior Latter Day Saints. How can you trust your feelings to be indicative of what is true, you know, specifically referencing the D&C paper nine passage you know that the whole burning in the bosom concept and Latter Day Saints will then cite Luke 2432 and 60 these their hearts burned within them so there's nothing wrong with understanding that the spirit will make your heart burn within you to to indicate truth.

But again, the context matters what what is the context of this passage, Matthew.

So basically this was after Christ had already been had died in a been laid to rest and it's basically the announcement of Jesus's resurrection being risen again and so is Mary Magdalene and this chapter describes a very magna, Joanne and Mary the mother of James and other women are with them. The you know they told the apostles that Jesus had risen.

That is, to an empty incident. Peter and John, the only went to chase after to go see themselves and so it is along the road where let's see looking at specific prayers for describes that which person we just read 32 32 so yeah so there were so Jesus appeared and he it seemed like they didn't understand or know there was Jesus, but he was describing his reading to them the Old Testament young Dick about Moses and how I spoke about him and and then at some point. Her eyes were open to state that who it was who was speaking.

But as soon as their eyes are open, that he was gone he vanished.

I'm not sure if it's miraculous or if you just left this cannot always not clear to me for this passage. I'm guessing you probably vanished in some supernatural act and so it's at this point for their discovery well when he was opening Scripture stress and not our heart burn within us and so I think that it's I mean I'm not.

I would say it precludes any possibility that the spirit testifying that when using the strip. I think it is more testifying of who Christ was a lot when their eyes are opened, you know they had this they realized this is Christ illnesses him appearing to us, teaching us feel personally about how the Scriptures are fulfilled in him and so you know it's it's discount witness.

It was actually him but what are your thoughts on this.

Yeah, I agree with what you said and Ben's peers is interesting passages. It's got some it's got a clastic structure to and you know they kind of start out Jesus kind of appears to them and is walking with them along the road and they don't recognize in us is that their eyes are in the KJV at the beginning so that's the clastic structure of that kinda ends where deodorizer opens towards the end right so there's some and also there's a parallel like in the beginning they Jesus is kind of asking them know what's going on in in there like what what you like you've been living under a rock. Kinda like you not heard what's been going on in Jerusalem about this Jesus, you know, and is that he starts opening the Scriptures to them and so yeah they kinda come to this realization when their eyes are opened at the end and after just after his vanished from before them and after they've eaten with him know that while you know that was that was the Lord, you know that we just experience them just dined with him and so the burning in the bosom, one flipping on, though, is that nowhere in the passage here is the Holy Spirit mentioned, so it's not it's not said in the passage that the Holy Spirit was witnessing to them the truth of what Jesus taught or are opened to them from the Scriptures so did you write it in and Latter Day Saints context uses as a as a kind of the backup passage like CDS United 989 is is the way to go in terms of knowing truth by burning in the bosom. But that's not really what what's being indicated.

I think there in Luke 2432 is that business the end of the talking about that the passages to kinda wrap up. I think for a Christian witnessing to a Latter Day Saints. I think you'll need to be well versed in these passages.

If you want to get into conversations with them about what they mean in context, both for those passages that are from the LDS canon as well as those are better from the Bible and for Latter Day Saints who who are listening or her former Latter Day Saints were listening.

Hope you found some some benefit from listening to us discuss these passages and talk about the context of been really kinda digging into the way that their used and then the and in future episodes will be talking about other aspects of the LDS testimony. Thanks for listening. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions clicking send a message at the top of the page.

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