What About SALVATION? Part 3

You're entering outer brightness.

Welcome back, fireflies. This week we wrap up our discussion on the topic of what about salvation, which is another piece of our Articles of Faith series. And this week, Michael, Matthew and I discuss a couple of questions. First, how do good works play into salvation?

Why aren't you an antinomian? And then secondly, do you ever doubt your salvation? If so, what gives you hope and how has your view of salvation changed your view of Christ? We look forward to sharing this discussion with you. Okay. I'm going to ask Paul this question first. How do good works play into salvation?

Why aren't you an antinomian? This question comes to us from Ross Anderson. All right. So, a couple of times, a couple of experiences I want to talk about. So, when Angela and I were first married, our son Curtis was born a year after we were married. And I had just started going to school, going to college first semester for my undergrad when he was born. And ended up taking, what I was going to do is take one semester off and then go back. And one semester turned into three years.

And after a while, finally decided to go back to school. But in the intervening years, when we had a young family, I worked two jobs and would go to work all day at the insurance company. And then in the evening would go to work delivering pizza. And while I was driving around delivering pizza, I would listen to Christian radio. And the one show that I would listen to quite a bit was the Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff. And I know he's taken quite a bit of flack recently in the last few years for his conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy. But I would listen to him and he would take calls. And a lot of times he would take calls from Latter-day Saints because he was critical of Latter-day Saint theology and Latter-day Saints would apparently listen and call him. And I remember one time I was delivering a pizza, ironically, on the same street where my bishop lived. And I'm listening to Hank Hanegraaff and he was talking to an LDS caller who had called to ask a very similar question, you know, what about how do good works play into salvation?

Aren't they necessary? You know, that type of question. And Hank was answering it and he was explaining that, you know, good works are the outgrowth of a saved person's changed heart. God changes the heart and then a Christian does good works as a result of that heart change, right? And he was talking about sanctification and the difference between sanctification and justification. And I remember being really angry and yelling at my car stereo that the differences he was explaining were just semantics. And fast forward about two years probably from that experience, when I was back in school, one evening I was driving to the small college where I was going to school and Hank was on again and took another question from a Latter-day Saint and she was asking a very similar question. And for whatever reason when he explained at that time, it clicked for me, right? I wasn't angry anymore.

I wasn't yelling at my car stereo anymore. And I understood when he said that works are an outgrowth of a saved heart. They're not necessary for salvation. A Christian doesn't do good works to be saved. They do good works because they're saved, right?

And so that's kind of how I came to understand it was through those kind of two experiences listening to Hank Hanegraaff talk about it and answer that question. The second part of the question though is why aren't you an antinomian, right? And so to that I'd say I'm not an antinomian because Scripture teaches against it. In Romans 6, Paul asks a really blunt question and up until that point in the epistle, he's been preaching the gospel of grace. He's been preaching that none are righteous, no not one. That all need Jesus for salvation and that's by grace not works, right? And then he gets to this really direct question that just strikes at the root of the tree of his ancient critics, right? And in the question you can hear their accusations of easy believism and antinomianism, but he shuts them down, right?

The question is what shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? And how does Paul answer that rhetorical question that he's using? He says, God forbid by no means.

No, we're not antinomians. Good works are evidence of a changed heart and they're not requirement for salvation. All right, Matthew, why aren't you an antinomian?

Okay, well, Paul did a great job as usual. So I mentioned that Ephesians 2, 8 through 10 is one of my favorite passages and helped me understand the gospel. Yeah, so Ephesians 2, it speaks of how we're saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast, but it doesn't stop there.

Usually that's where Christians stop, you know? And I think that's great to speak of how we're saved by grace and not through works, but we really should continue on to verse 10. It says, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

So we're saved by grace, but we're not just saved by grace and then that's it. We're saved for a purpose. God is giving us the benefits of salvation so that we can share the light of Christ with others.

It says, we are his workmanship, meaning God works with us, molds us, shapes us. We are created in Christ Jesus for good works. This is speaking of the new creation, the rebirth in regeneration and so we're created in Christ Jesus for good works.

That's our purpose. We're created as Christians for the purpose of moving forward and producing good works, just like a fruit tree is planted and it's grown, it grows, it sprouts, it creates a trunk and the branches and the trees and the leaves for the purpose of creating fruit. So God is doing all this work in us, he's pruning us, he's training us, he's teaching us, he's guiding us so that we can produce good works. So good works are the fruit that naturally follow from the rebirth and salvation as what Paul said. There was one passage also that I was going to bring up. It's slipping my mind.

Maybe that's a good sign for me to stop. Okay, what was the question again? What role do good works play in salvation and why aren't you in antinomies? Right. I was going to – we haven't brought up James 2 quite yet, have we? I brought it up earlier but not in depth. Okay.

Well, I won't really go in depth either. But yeah, that's the passage that I use quite often as Latter-day Saint was faith without works is dead and I still hear that quite a lot when I try to show justification from Paul in the Romans, they'll immediately go to James. So, in the English Standard Version – excuse me – in the English Standard Version, starting with verse 14 in James 2, it says, what good is it my brothers if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food and one of you says to them, go in peace, be warmed and filled, without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also, faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one, you do well.

Even the demons believe and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? So, the reason why this passage is important is because this is dealing with a different issue than what Paul is dealing with. So, you can't just say – you can't just point to James and have him refute Paul.

I think that's – unfortunately, I find a lot of people that try to do that. They try to pit one biblical author against the other. But since all of scripture is God-breathed according to 2 Timothy 2 – sorry, brain fart. 2 Timothy 3, 16 through 17, all scripture is God-breathed. You can't have Paul contradicting James and you can't have James contradicting Paul or any combination therein. So, yeah, so what Paul is dealing with is he's dealing with how are we made right with God? How do we as fallen wretched sinners, as we've gone through in great detail, how do we become right with God?

Because nothing we can do can make us righteous before God. And he uses the case of when Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. And that was at least 20 years before Abraham offered his son on the altar. I think it was about at least 20 years before.

I can't remember exactly the time period, but it was long before that period. So, he's saying God – and this is before he was circumcised – Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteous. So, it's showing that through faith alone, we're justified.

However, you can take the opposite extreme. Instead of trying to become righteous by your works, you're trying to come to God and say that works are absolutely unnecessary. That's an even – that's antinomianism, that this idea that we're saved in Christ and so we can just do whatever we want. We don't need to have any continued repentance.

We can continue to sin as much as we love. And so, that's the kind of faith that James is going after. So, that's why a lot of times in James chapter 2 verse 14, I think it's an addition to the text.

Let me check the New American Standard. It doesn't show it in italics. But it says in verse 14, it says, can that faith save him? I'll read again verse 14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? So, he's speaking of that specific faith, the faith that does not lead to good works or says that works are not necessary. The faith that is completely separate from works that does not lead to good works. Can that faith save him? And James basically goes on to say, as I quoted earlier, he basically says no because even the demons also believe and shudder. So, they believe in Jesus but they have no good works.

They know Jesus is the Christ and that's all. So, for us to completely sever faith from good works is just as much a false gospel as to say – as to try to mix faith and works to make yourself righteous before God. We're justified by faith alone but that faith will never be alone.

So, good works must necessarily follow. To reiterate, Paul and James are not contradicting each other. They're talking about two different. So, when you really understand the context of both of these texts together, they're really agreeing with each other and that's why I'm not an antinomian.

Right. I'll be discussing a lot of times with Latter-day Saints and the question comes up time and time again. It's like, okay, well, if you believe that grace is a free gift then you must think that you can sin as much as you want. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that statement come up and what I usually respond is, do you have somebody in your family that loves you unconditionally? And they'll say yes and then I'll respond – does that mean that you can betray them at every opportunity? Is that your goal because they're going to love you no matter what you do? And usually that kind of helps them understand where we're coming from because – just because God loves us unconditionally, He loves His children unconditionally does not mean that we're going to want to turn around and betray that love constantly.

It's actually the opposite. It makes me grateful. It makes me want to be a better person. It makes me want to – it makes me want people to know that I'm a Christian because – just because they know me, even without me saying anything.

You know, I want him to be glorified. And I guess if I could put an analogy out there, you know, I don't do chores around the house like doing dishes and taking out the trash as an attempt to court my wife or make her fall in love with me. I mean, that'd be ridiculous because chores don't make a relationship. But on the other hand, I can do these things with a smile on my face because I know that they are appreciated when I do them. I do it because, you know, I'm in a loving relationship, not because I'm trying to get in one. So, I don't know if that makes sense but just kind of a thought that came to my head.

But no, the reason that I'm not an antinomian is because, you know, you guys have shared so many scriptures that just teach against it that let's say that we are called to good works. Can I add one thing real quick? I just remembered what I was going to share. Okay, awesome. Yes.

That'd be really quick though. What you said really reminded me of exactly the same thing I wanted to point out is that we always think of, you know, when Christians say we're free in Christ, we're saved by grace alone, our works don't contribute to our salvation. They'll say, well, Jesus says, if you love me, keep my commandments. And I say that now, I say, amen. If we love Christ, we will want to keep his commandments.

And how do we have that desire? 2 Corinthians 5, I think Paul, he might have mentioned it earlier. It speaks of the new rebirth and going from rebel sinner to a redeemed believer. So, starting in verse 16, from now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away.

Behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. And going on, verse 21, for our sake, he made him to be sin, who knew no sin, so that in him, we might become the righteousness of God. And before I go back to verse 17, verse 21 is the perfect example of the double exchange, the exchange of our sins to Christ, when it says, for our sake, he made him to be sin, who knew no sin, so he took our sins upon him. Continuing on, so that in him, we might become the righteousness of God. And so, it says, we receive the righteousness of Christ.

So, there's that double exchange. But going back, verse 17, therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. So, if they ask, well, why don't you go on sinning? Why don't you just do whatever you want?

If you're saved by grace, you're secure, then why don't you just do whatever you want? Because if you're truly in Christ and you're not a false professor or a false believer, you will be a new creation. You will be someone different. You cannot encounter Christ and come away the same as you were before. You will want to serve God. You will want to love him. And I think that example of a marriage is exactly right.

Because, and that's, or anyway, I don't want to get into that. But so, it's great to know that God loves us no matter what and he's not going to kick us to the curb as soon as we make a mistake. So, knowing that, knowing that we're secure in him and his love, it will push us. We'll naturally want to serve him. We'll be, we'll want to have more devotion to him.

I mean, just think about all the jobs you've had in the past. You know, when you had a boss that cared about you sincerely about your welfare and was willing to help you out when you needed it versus maybe a boss who was less understanding and was maybe harsher with you, you probably wanted to work harder for the boss that cared about you rather than the boss that didn't care about you. You know, it's just our natural inclination is if someone cares about you, you naturally want to help them. And for those who are born in Christ as a new creation, yeah, we want to serve Christ. We want to be a light to others.

We want to do good works. Yeah, and along that vein, I think, I think what I should have said earlier, too, is, you know, kind of tying it back to an earlier question, you know, about, you know, people will say that forensic justification is a fairy tale. If it were just a myth or a fairy tale or just, you know, flowery words that we use, then absolutely, we would all be antinomians. The fact that we are not proves that there is a real change of heart that occurs and there is real sanctification that follows. And because it is a real gospel and Christ is actually, you know, improving upon us and helping us to be better people, that is why I'm not an antinomian. And then really quick, too, that's why going back to what we were talking about deathbed repentance, that's kind of what I was, what you just said is what I was trying to point out is that God knows our heart. We can't just say, okay, God, you know, I believe, you know, save me and, you know, check off a thing. But if there's no change in heart, God's gonna know that. But I do believe that God can and does change hearts in that moment.

So yeah, explain it real well. Last question of the evening, and this is a very personal question. Do you ever doubt your salvation? And if so, what is it that gives you hope? And how does your view of salvation now affect your view of Christ?

And I would like to start with Paul. Okay, so real talk. Do I ever doubt my salvation?

Yes. Because I come from a background where if you sin, you have left the path to salvation. And so yes, my mind, because I'm a sinner, my mind at times goes there. But what gives me hope is knowing that Jesus paid it all to him I owe.

I talked about driving around delivering pizza I used to listen to through the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, and that song was always part of his broadcast. Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe. Sin has left a crimson stain. He has washed it white as snow.

And that's where my hope is. I like what Paul writes in Romans 7 as well. Verses 7 and 9, he says, what shall we say?

And this is him continuing his conversation of the law. And he says, what then shall we say that the law is sin by no means? Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin.

For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, you shall not covet. But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. And I think, you know, it's interesting if you think about what Paul is saying there in relation to Adam and Eve in the garden, right? That before they were given the commandment not to eat of any tree, or to eat of any tree except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, before they were given that commandment, they were innocent, right?

They didn't have any desire to eat of a forbidden fruit. But as soon as the commandment came, then there was this interest, right? And they were tempted, right? And Paul is saying a very similar thing here. But that sin seizes an opportunity through the commandment, right?

And of course, Romans chapter 7 towards the end is, you know, Matthew, you've covered this in other episodes, is Paul talking about, you know, the fact that he still sins, right? He says, starting in verse 21, So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being. But I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind, and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. And that seems to be sort of a defeating ending, right?

But the chapter break isn't natural to his epistle. So you flip over to Romans chapter 8 verse 1, and this is the hope, right? This is the gospel. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. And so, in those moments where my mind sort of reverts back to that Mormon thinking, right? I rely on Romans 8.1 to revive in me that hope.

And the final part of the question, how has your view of salvation changed your view of Christ? He's everything. He's my Lord and my Savior, and he's everything. And without him, I'm nothing. And before, he was an exemplar. He was who I was to follow to perfection, which is an impossible task. And so, the view of salvation presented in the Bible that I've now come to understand has utterly changed my view of Christ. He's everything.

Right. Thank you, Paul. So it's interesting because, I don't know, maybe it's just the way I'm built, but I think I've stressed out so much about my salvation as a Latter-day Saint.

I remember there were in the apartment I was in Brussels in Belgium, I remember reading about being born again. And you know, like, I just love that concept so much, you know, being born again. And it's like something that I just desired. I just, you know, I just wanted to be completely free of sin, completely just, you know, a sinless creature.

I just want to be free of all that. And I didn't really understand how to do it. I thought I, you know, I thought I was born again because, you know, I had faith in Christ, you know, and I was baptized, you know, I followed, you know, all the principles that the LDS church taught me. I was working hard as a missionary.

I was trying my hardest. And I had so much doubt all the time. So when I placed my faith in Christ a few years ago, it's weird because, you know, I have thoughts, you know, you'll have like the occasional thought that will pop up in your head, you know, randomly. But I don't really dwell on it, you know what I mean? I have really good friends that really, really struggle with assurance. And maybe I should struggle with assurance, you know, maybe I should struggle with it more.

Maybe that's something I need to work on, you know, maybe I need to be testing myself more. But I don't know, it's like I'll have thoughts about, you know, maybe I'm not really saved. But then I remember, well, but Christ did it, you know. He died for me, you know.

I don't know, it's hard to explain. I don't know if any of this is making sense. But it's like I really do trust that Christ is my Savior. And while I stumble and I fall and I mess up quite a lot, and you know, and witnessing to Latter-day Saints, I think sometimes, man, I should have been kinder there. I shouldn't have been so brash. I should have been more patient. I shouldn't have, you know, said this or that.

But at the same time, I don't ever, you know, I don't ever dwell for any significant amount of time in my thoughts or in my heart. Like, oh man, I'm just, maybe I'm just not saved. And maybe that's, and I think that's a blessing because I, like I said, I have friends who do struggle with that. And so, they come to me and I say, well, look, you're looking inward. We got to look outward. We got to look at Christ, you know. Whenever we're doubting, we just got to point ourselves to Him. And He's always going to accept us.

You know, God never pushes away anybody that sincerely comes to Him. So yeah, so I don't know. I mean, I have thoughts like that, but I don't really have like sincere doubts or anything. Maybe I'm weird. Maybe I should doubt. I don't know. Chris Maybe. Geoff It's hard to explain.

I don't know. It's like, you know, it's kind of like, so I'm living away from home right now. So, I live in New York and my family's back in Utah. And I know my family won't be alive forever, but I know that if I wanted to, I could hop in a plane right now and fly over and see my family if I wanted to. Of course, with the pandemic, you know, it makes a little bit more difficult. But you know, apart from that, I know I could go see them.

They're there. And it's like, just as sure as that in my mind, I know that God's there. I know, like, I trust Christ. I looked at the cross and I say, that's where my sins were nailed.

And it's just, you know, it's just as sure as that in my mind is I know that my family's back in Utah. So, I don't know. I'm not trying to say that like I'm some super Christian or, you know what I mean?

Like, I'm not trying to boast or anything. I just, I was going to bring up a passage in Philippians that kind of summed up my feelings to answer the second question. Sorry, Philippians 3. Oh, I had it in the Word document, sorry.

I'm so disorganized. And I think we might have quoted this before. But it's worth bringing up again now. Paul says, But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake, I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith, that I may know him and the power of his resurrection and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible, I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Okay, keep going. Okay, verse 12. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way and if anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. Brothers, join in imitating me and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Their end is destruction, their God is their belly, and their glory and their shame with mindset on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. So when I doubt, when I struggle, I just think about how Christ has already done it. He's already laid the path for us.

We already know how the story is going to end. Christ will conquer every – he'll conquer sin, he'll conquer death, he's conquered all of it. And just to finish up, I love Hebrews 12, 1 through 2. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. For the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising his shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. I mean, like we've said, he's our Lord, he's our savior, he's our God, he's our king, he's our prophet, he's our priest, he's our – he's everything, you know?

He's everything that we should be singing about. And so when we gather together as believers, when we have that opportunity again, we praise and rejoice in Christ as everything. Everything is centered around Christ. We can't mention anything in scripture. All scripture points to Christ.

It all points to him. So if we have Christ, we have everything. If we don't have Christ, we have nothing. So I think one thing I was going to point out is I saw Christ as an unattainable goal, as Latter-day Saint. You know, I felt like there were so many levels of separation between me and him. You know, I had to keep the commandments, not only that, I had to be worthy, I had to be able to pass my temple recommend interview because if I didn't do that, then I would definitely be cut off from Christ.

So if I pass that, that's getting through one hoop. And then I got to go to the temple often, and then I got to keep all these commandments, I got to do this, this and that. Maybe I'll be able to pick up the breadcrumbs that Jesus drops from the table, you know? I wouldn't be able to actually reach him, but I'd be able to get little drops here and there. And it always felt like he was just completely separated from me. You know, I could see him off in the distance in a crowd, but I could never reach him. And now, now that we trust Christ, we can go to him personally. My pastor does not separate me from Christ. I don't have to go to him and say, okay, can you let me get through barrier number one? You know, we can go to Jesus directly, and we can have a relationship with Jesus directly, and we should.

And it's an amazing feeling. You know what, I really like what you just said, Matthew, about barriers between us and Christ. I think one of the biggest barriers that I used to think was there between me and Jesus was my sins. And I honestly thought that, you know, when I had sinned in my life, it meant that God didn't want anything to do with me. You know, that Jesus was turning his face away, that he wouldn't answer my prayers.

And, you know, I had to get right with him before he would come to me. But the Bible is very clear that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. But just to go into this question, like Paul, there have definitely been times where I have doubted my salvation. And some of the reason for that is, you know, I'll kind of doubt the initial conversions, because there's just not as much liturgy as there is in the LDS Church.

In the LDS Church, you jump through these physical hoops, you get baptized, you have hands laid on you to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, you have hands laid on you to give you the Aaronic and then the Melchizedek Priesthood, you go to the temple and you go through all these ordinances. And I think just doing a lot of these physical things makes it feel like it is a, I don't know, more secure thing. But with me, I just trust in the Lord. And it feels, you know, coming from a Mormon background, it feels like a really flimsy thing, like, oh, yes, I trust in the Lord and thus I am saved.

All of my sins past, present and future are forgiven. So sometimes that thought will come into my mind. Another question, another thing that makes me question sometimes is, you know, I know that there's supposed to be a sanctification process. And sometimes I just feel like it's not happening fast enough. And I find myself sinning and I'll think, okay, am I really a Christian then because, you know, I haven't overcome this sin yet? Or you know, I'm still doing something wrong. So sometimes those thoughts will be on my mind. It has been a lot less lately than it used to be as a new Christian.

So it doesn't seem to be persisting very much. But this is definitely, you know, coming to understand how salvation works. It has changed my perception of Christ dramatically because now I realize how amazing His mercy is. And I wanted to read a passage of Scripture. This is in Luke chapter 7, verses 41 through 43.

And this is Jesus talking to Peter. He says, A certain moneylender had two debtors, one owed 500 denarii and the other 50. When they could not pay, he canceled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?

Simon answered, The one, I suppose, for whom he canceled the larger debt. And he said to him, You've judged rightly. As a Latter-day Saint, I didn't believe that I was truly a sinner. I thought that I was righteous, or at least on the path to righteousness. And I didn't think that God was really forgiving me of anything that big. And now I realize how much I offend God through my daily actions.

And yet He has forgiven me for all of that. And I think one of the things that gives me hope is just seeing, you know, some of the stories in the New Testament. I mean, Peter denied Christ three times publicly. And Christ was still quick to accept him when he was resurrected. And I also think about the parable of the prodigal son where the son came back after wasting his inheritance.

And he came back offering to be a servant, but the father put a ring on his finger and put a robe on him, and then threw a party saying that his son had returned. So there was just full acceptance, no hesitation. And I guess the other thing that just gives me a lot of hope is just knowing that God saved me out of Mormonism.

There's no denying that. There's no denying that His hand was there leading me and pulling me out. And I don't believe for a minute that He pulled me out for no reason, or for me just to flounder and for him to forget about me.

I don't think that He does things for no reason like that. Now when I am doubting, I have to ask myself some serious questions. And the big one is, you know, where else am I gonna go? And who else am I gonna trust to save me?

Am I gonna trust myself? I tried that for 32 years, and that didn't get me anywhere. So if Christ is not my Savior, if He's not the only one that I can hope in, then I have no hope. If I am responsible for even an iota of my own salvation, then I have no hope, because there's no way that I can pull it off.

I am a beggar. I have nothing to pay the debt that I owe God. And so for me, it is all Christ. He is everything. You know, to put it in Mormon terms, Christ has become my exaltation.

He is all that I need. Yeah, amen. And just to kind of tie this up, I think as believers it's right and proper to examine ourselves, right? Paul talks about that in his second letter to the Corinthians. He says, beginning in chapter 13, verse 3, I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.

So that's just another way that my view of Christ has changed, right? The idea that the Father or the Son lives in the human heart is an old sectarian notion, as Joseph Smith said. But here in the Bible, we have that promise that if you're in Christ, Christ is in you, right? And living and alive and bringing you to God and bringing you to sanctification. You may not always feel it. You may need to examine yourself. But I think doing so is right and proper, but we have the promise of salvation through Christ Jesus. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I can't recall off the top of my head, but there are many godly men that came before us that, you know, you just read their sermons and it's just like incredible.

I can't remember if it was John Owen or maybe Jonathan Edwards, I forget. But just like huge men in the faith that just really struggle with assurance. And so, you know, if they struggle with assurance, Christians shouldn't feel guilty or feel alone or feel abnormal for struggling also. Yeah, like you said, we definitely need to be examining ourselves. And if we're so confident in Jesus that we don't examine ourselves to the point where, you know, we do start to dip into practices of sin and we don't really worry about it, that can be dangerous.

I don't personally believe that we could lose salvation, but I think it's possible for someone to be, you know, that someone may be deceiving themselves into believing that they're saved, you know, when they're really not. So, yeah, that's really important for all Christians to examine ourselves. Amen.

I think we got some good stuff. These were good questions. Yeah, they were. Well, thanks. I mean, I think it was a good idea asking the group. Honestly, I think that was the best thing that I've done in a while was just give them an opportunity to throw the questions into the hat.

Yeah, I think that was good too. Your guys' input was really great. I really appreciate your insights. Also, I was going to mention, Paul, like when I was talking about death, bed, repentance, I hope I didn't sound crass or insensitive, you know, based on what I said. So, I wasn't trying to – I don't know. I don't know if anything I'm saying makes sense.

It's just something that I thought about. No, I didn't take anything you said that way. Yeah, I was trying to just – No, because I'm in agreement with you. I'm in agreement with you that if someone comes to Christ, no matter what time in their life, it's because God is drawing them, right? As you've said, there's many means and ways by which God goes about doing that. But if someone is coming to Christ at the end of their life, it's because God is drawing them, not because they're – if someone is truly coming to Christ, it's because God is drawing them, not because they're like, oh, you know, I'll just repent now, you know, cosmic life insurance kind of thing.

There may be people who do that, but if someone is truly coming to Christ, it's because God's at work in their heart. Right. Okay, good. I don't know why I had that thought. It just popped in my mind. I was like, man, I don't know. Sometimes I do that. I don't know if you guys do that. Actually, one thing I remember, the story about Uzzah, so normally you do carry the ark with the sticks but in that case, they were carrying it on carts and then the ark fell off the cart.

So now I'm going to be like, man, people think I don't know the Bible because I got the story wrong. I can't wait for that angry hate mail to be like, one of your hosts. So has your – have your wives asked for an autograph now that you guys are famous? I only have one.

I only have one wife. Oh, that was good. See you.

Michael is savage. It happens. After midnight, I turn into a complete monster.

It's my other personality that comes out. It's the Mr. Pibb. Well, I'm Dr. Pepper and Mr. Pibb. Oh my goodness. Oh man. I think we have a new nickname for you. Oh gosh. And I brought it upon myself this time. Which Michael are we going to get on this question?

Dr. Pepper or Mr. Pibb? Oh, that's genius. Oh my gosh. One of my time. All right, Fireflies. That's a wrap on our episodes about What About Salvation? Next week, we're going to have a very special guest, author Michael Flournoy, to discuss his new book, Falling into Grace, How a Mormon Apologist Stumbled into Christianity.

Catch you then, Fireflies. You can also send us an email at outerbrightness at gmail dot com. We hope to hear from you soon. You can subscribe to the Outer Brightness Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Cast Box, Google Podcasts, Pocket Casts, PodBeam, Spotify, and Stitcher. Also, you can check out our new YouTube channel. And if you like it, be sure to lay hands on that subscribe button and confirm it. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review wherever you listen and help spread the word. You can also connect with Michael the Ex-Mormon Apologist at fromwater2wine.org, where he blogs and sometimes Paul and Matthew do as well. Music for the Outer Brightness Podcast is graciously provided by the talented Brianna Flournoy and by Adams Road.

Learn more about Adams Road by visiting their ministry page at adamsroadministry.com. Stay bright, Fireflies. Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God. The Word made fresh, the risen Son. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay, but the Word of our God through ages remains.

Lord, You promised that we, as Your church, would remain upon this rock and the gates of hell will not prevail against us cause You have power to keep Your word unspoiled in purity. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay, but the Word of our God through ages remains. As the rain calls down from heaven, and waters the earth, bringing it life, so the Word that goes out from Your mouth will not return empty, but does what You desire. Lord, we hear Your word and believe in You. Heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word of the Lord endures forever. All this world is in decay, but the Word of our God through ages remains. The Word of God remains.