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What About The SACRAMENTS? Part 2

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April 29, 2021 9:53 am

What About The SACRAMENTS? Part 2

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April 29, 2021 9:53 am

From Mormon to Jesus!  Real, authentic conversations among former members of the Church Of Latter-Day Saints.

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Your right and this article say states. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administering the ordinances thereof on the topic of the ordinances or sacraments of the Church of Jesus Christ can be discussed in very great detail. Over the course of many episodes we will do our best to introduce the differences between the ordinances of the LDS church and the ordinances of the Christian church.

We are massive nuclear Calvinist squirrel Jedi Michael the ex-Mormon Mr. Hyde apologist and grandpa Bunyan. Let's get into it. Historically, there have been differences in opinion on how many ordinances or sacraments. There are what purposes they serve etc. is this something that we should worry about. Does this disrupt the unity of the one the quote one holy Catholic c meaning universal and apostolic church" that we affirm to belong to. According to the earliest Christian creeds for you to start less counseling with Michael.

Okay, I think it is my turn anyway right so is this this is something to worry about. I don't think that it is something that we need to worry about. I actually really like the differences in some of the churches in this.

This is just dark spelled out hundred percent in the Bible so I'm really okay with it. I think the only time where I would start to get a little bit concerned is if somebody was going to the point of saying that Christ wasn't sufficient that we weren't saved by by grace alone through faith alone. If I saw something going beyond the scope of that then I might be a little bit concerned but otherwise I don't have a problem with it.

Tracy if you ask me something else. There does this disrupt the one holy Catholic church, yeah, I don't think that it's a problem that only disrupts the unity of all I think it's just just a unique style of worship and theology, all under the umbrella of Christianity. Okay, awesome people, so my plans was cut short should be.

Think about it yes should be reason out. Yes she would discuss it. Yes. Should we seek unity on disrupting yes as can anything that the person allows to come between them.

Another believer, I'm with Michael. I think that there are some interesting things, like I did some comparisons looking at the major branches of historic Christianity, Roman Catholic and Protestant men comparing out with the C views in terms of number ordinances and purposes. Another kind of something that I was interesting stuff that I touch on later but I think one of the interesting things I noticed is that there's differences that are interesting so confirmation right is one where there's differences that is that a New Testament ordinance or is not in their questions around method that are interesting to think about reason through so I met a little bit more later.

Okay cool. If questions come in your mind you know of my discussion. You can just let me know if my church as an sacrament of doing circumcision is that bad all just referring to Galatians just messing with you. I know I would mention to adults but yeah this so I'm not sure how much I have thoughts in mind of things to talk about this question. It's fascinating to me to read so much difference in Christianity historically over the ordinances and technically the real first disruption of denominational lines. I guess you could call it was over the subject of the Lord's supper goes back to Martin Luther, and Ulrich Zwingli, so they had written letters to each other about each other's positions of what exactly the Lord supper was and what it conveyed and what representative what was actually there. What were you actually consuming so it's interesting because I don't know about baptism. I am study that quite a bit that I've been reading in Ackerman batting he was Dutch reformed guy. He's got a really solid systematic texts for volumes.

The reform dogmatics and he talks about about Zwingli and how he's kind of been maligned as seeing all of the Lord supper. It's literally just eating bread and it's just a remembrance.

You, nothing happens, but really he talks but how Zwingli did believe in spiritual presence in the Lord's supper is Osprey fascinating to me because love people said well you know he just I was eating bread. Nothing happened, but really that's not quite correct to believe in spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's supper, but he saw the Lord supper more is kind of like, like more of a profession of faith. On the one who receives it and I can remember all the tiny details, but that's pretty much how he thought he saw this particular supper was kind of your affirmation and your faith in Christ, similar to how you respond positively positively to preaching or hearing the word.

It's kind of long that lines and Martin Luther. He believed that Christ was physically present in the supper. Know the difference between Martin Luther's view and the Roman Catholic view is a Roman Catholic view kinda goes back to these seasoning these kind of Aristotelian categories where you have accidents and substance so accidents are what something appears to be in substance is, what it actually is. But you can't really see the substance you only see the accident so Roman Catholic theology, especially around the time of home in St. Thomas Aquinas course you can develop this idea.

This Aristotelian idea of when you bless the Lord supper the bread and wine when they start out there that the accidents of bread and wine in the substance of bread and wine when they're blessed by a priest and I sang the Latin hock addressed in them. Corpus ma'am this is my body. It literally transforms the substance of the Lord supper into the body and blood of Christ. Both the bread and the wine and so the substance is completely change there's no substance of the bread and wine left, but the accidents remain so it looks like bread and wine taste like bread and wine substances body and blood physically of Christ, so that difference from Martin Luther's view, since if you believe that when you bless it.

When you say those words. You know you're still saying this is my body, so he believed that there is some kind of sacramental sacrament will happening whether he would call the transformation. I'm not quite sure what terminology would abuse but you're actually physically the physical presence of Christ is in the Lord supper. However, it's not replacing the substance of the bread and wine. It's kind of added to it and is a term that reformed and other historians use of his doctrine and Lutherans hated to mention it. So sorry to her Lutheran listeners, but reform have historically called consubstantiation, con meeting, like with substantiation, meaning substance, so the body and blood of Christ are are with the substance of the bread and wine. They don't use the terminology they call real presence. So anyways this is the distinction between the two views that really separated the Reformation in the beginning and it they wrote letters to each other and they were very, very strongly opposed to each other's view and it wasn't until the Marburg colloquy, which was in 1529. I had to pull it up to separate out here was when they finally had that meeting and it's it's the it's the iconic meeting where you see a painting and what it is happened or not.

We don't know but etched on it was the Latin hock addressed in them.

Corpus ma'am this is my body.

And Luther just kept pounding on it, you know, I just kept saying that over and over and over again because he said you know he is view is that the bodies physically there. So how the words are so clear. So why don't you believe that you know it's it was kind of a sign of Christians struggling to understand the opposing side. I think nowadays we have a little bit more understanding or you know a bit more grace.

I think between the denominational lines but back then it was very, very firmly believe in them and I was the first time that really the Reformation can split a little bit in terms of, you know they did, they couldn't see each other having fellowship in terms of worship services, because one thought that Christ was physically present in the supper and one thought that he was only spiritually present and then Calvin John Calvin. He kinda had a middle way where he believed that you do become united to the body and blood of Christ, but it's not through a local physical presence, meaning Jesus Christ, physical body, but are not in the supper itself, but your sacramentally united to the spiritual presence of Christ in the supper. And because you cannot you know if you're if you're if you united to the spiritual presence of Christ united also to his physical body so it's kinda like lifting our bodies up to have lifting us spiritually to heaven in the heavenly places to become united to the entire person of Christ, including the benefits of his body and blood that were there were shed on the cross so he had kind of a middle view sort of between the two, but I like a study that recently I was fascinated by all the different views and and I'm like I can kinda see Zwingli's being. I can make sense and I got a Luther makes less sense to you know, but ultimately I think I think I'll just to hold the Calvin you get to me is fastening out think it disrupts unity in the sense of the universal church. All believers, but it does cause us to have denominational differences because I can ask them why, because if you if you believe that your consuming literally the physical body and blood of Christ orally in a locally and someone believe something totally different. It's hard to really have 100% communion do not mean because the cadets what communion represents is not communing with Christ, if you feel your communion with Christ a different way to something else. I can understand why they would not want to do that. Me personally, if I were the Lutheran Church I would have no problem taking the Lord supper in my own view because just because we have different opinions of what is actually happening in the Lord supper. It doesn't mean that you know that I don't think that we should be able to share it together. It's kinda like reading the Bible.

It's similar to that. It's like we read the same Bible and just because you disagree and what it means. It doesn't mean like I have to tell the other person know you can't read the Bible because your view doesn't agree with me. We both read same Bible so I think if we partake of the same Lord supper, you know, we may have different views of what it means, but were still communing with each other with Christ is God's first Sgt. yeah I mean I just might into his eyes like man I feel exactly the same way as you Matthew five lives if I was in the Lutheran Church. I have no problem partaking in communion, either because you know regardless of what our beliefs are only one thing is happening.

I mean it's not like in a Catholic Church.

It really is becoming the blood and flesh of Christ within Lutheranism was just a real presence in you and it changes depending on the denomination like there really is just one objective truth out there so you know, regardless of where I take it is still doing the same thing. I've mentioned before that hold grudges against Michael for disagreeing them differently going to do that but couldn't have done much before that. One of the things about the American restoration movement that has kinda been important to me is this idea that you work for Christians only, were not the only Christians and an openness to seeking understanding and seeking unity with fellow believers, beyond denominational lines and obviously the restoration churches are perfect, they split over musical instruments and various other things and and and of course there have been people within the restoration stridently & denominational Certainly as part of the history, but this idea that you were Christians only were not the only Christians has been important to me and working to things when you were talking nothing about holding Zwingli and Luther and mentors to claimants over the Lord's supper. I think from a historical standpoint, it's interesting because they're both kind of wrestling through okay now. Now that we are kind of looking to reform the Catholic Church and in some ways move beyond it. Now what right does the question is the kind of wrestling with what what do we believe about the Lord's supper.

What do we believe about baptism and what goes on in those and those sacraments are ordinances and the three of us are kinda doing something similar come out of the Latter Day Saints faith and work were thinking through now. What right with regards to these things and so like I said I'm to hold grudges against Michael, but some items to unity all thank you for burying the hatchet was a good have to moderate a fight in front of you next week. You know, we can plan for what I want to fight him. I just did a video with the guns you have my hands full with younger Mormon Michael so I don't want to make any other enemies. So I'm not looking to pick a fight either. Just remember, if you like. If you're to pull like Mike Tyson you know eventually fielding to bite off your younger selves year, you know, back in the future style for your future is great you're saying I can't hurt him, because anything I do to him hurt me under his hair covered his head in acid or something tore it out okay burritos. So what are your views now on.

The ordinances go begin to talk while we cannot currently mention it.

Probably Artie said you're kind of wrestling through some passages still did you want talk more about the so baptism Latter Day Saints use that is gay places you on the path to eternal life writing members and other ordinances that you complete along that path, which is fairly similar to the Roman Catholic view right. Baptism is the date or door to the church and all of the other sacraments that the church has to offer and biblically you know what does. What what is baptism and why do why should a believer be baptized.

What does does God work in baptism and if so what is the work that God does in baptism about like ask to writer Peter people amending speech into your purpose in their hearts and asked him what shall we say, and be baptized for the remission of sins. So you shall receive the Holy Ghost. So the question is baptism or something with regard to the remission of Sam's baptism is that is something that God does in terms of forgetting sins and applying the grace that Jesus merited on all of our house all believers to have us on the cross is that is that God applies to believer to believer in baptism is that how he reacts to Romans six also touches on baptism we were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, we too might walk in newness of life is the questions is baptism. The time in which believer is born again or is that something that happens at a different time. So those questions are things I still am wrestling through and again I'm working to understand what what the word of God says about these things. I think a lot of a lot of the theologies and positions of the various historic Christian denominations are interesting, but I really do stick to get back to the word and the word says that's where I want to live my foundation so right now I kind of you. Baptism is the time at which a person is born again time in which God does the work of justification in the believer. I wholly affirm that salvation is by grace alone is not doesn't come to believer because you decide to God times it comes to because God works and God keeps his promises.

And God is faithful and so kind. I recognize that my maybe a little bit different than the math Easter euros. Matthew is Michael and I'm okay with that I think were all through the what now questions after after Mormonism. The other two men Protestant ordinances are sacraments are baptism, and then the Lord's supper. I mentioned earlier, another six questions about like is is confirmation of New Testament ordinance.

If you look at historic Christianity Roman Catholic solution. Orthodox bones do confirmation a Christian nation Christian mission church is studied out what what was the scriptural basis for those rights from the Old Testament rather more so rather than just as you are kind of alluded to earlier Matthew Washington anointing of the temple ordinances and helping us church or are you thought referred back to Aaron Wright in the temple, so the tabernacle so that's kind of the same way justification found within the Roman Catholic the boxes you but interestingly if you talk with Latter Day Saints about things open up this process don't lay hands on for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The point of the New Testament passages like accident Knox 19 but interestingly, in those instances, the bang on of hands seems to convey rather than the gift of the Holy Ghost seems to convey special gifts right like speaking in tongues and will will will touch on those later another episode it's about time.

There doesn't seem to be New Testament precedents for this idea of confirmation for reception of the Holy Ghost, so I don't hold to the that's a great point because I am exciting I think is the one where he talks about those who were baptized onto John's baptism, Paul teaches them in and baptizes them and then lays hands on them and then they yeah it's like you said.

I also understand it to mean that that they were given many of those were converted in a time when it says that they received the spirit.

A lot of times I meant that they received tongues or prophesying that kind of thing and it was God's word demonstration that he was what sort them before that he was vouching for sanctioning sanctioning networks they got to sanctioning the conversion of this person you know and then we see we see even Gentiles speaking in tongues before there even baptized so I think I think we use this a lot in the LDS in the discussion forms because it says Houck.

Why, why do these people receive the spirit before there even baptized.

So when we seem to Gentiles receiving the spirit and speaking in tongues in before their water baptism, and then it's asked. Well, what is preventing them from being baptized in their baptized so yeah I don't think it has to go when I order water baptism confirmation to receive the Holy Ghost because they received them before their baptized site. I think that's a thing is accurate. Accenting specifically says pulling his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and began speaking in tongues and prophesying so that specifically points out that what what they received special administration of the Holy Spirit not just of the Holy Spirit as promised you believers and then ask your accent is one that pointed to a lot Simon when he sees the apostles laying on hands.

She asked for that power right in matters is .60 she was asking for the for the priesthood power what what what was it that made him ask for right is not stated explicitly like I like accenting you, you can assume that she must've seen something similar like the people who were having hands laid on them were speaking in tongues or having other similar prophesying, some other miraculous manifestation of the Holy Spirit that would make him want to have that power was. It was just he saw some guys laid hands on other people.

There was something that happened that made him say what I want that to do that right so just thinking about actually yes interesting I think for it to fit the LDS paradigm you have to fill in the gaps with something that the text doesn't say if you just go with what the text says it doesn't say, well, they were all ordained to the Keswick priesthood, which is what you need in order to perform baptism and confirmation etc. etc. but the kinds fill in the gaps because that's what they're taught. That's a very believe you Michael yeah listen to Paul saying animate. He's absolutely right that you know baptism is is mentioned very strongly all through the Scriptures nosing about that exact same passage to where Peter says repent and be baptized every one of you not just that but it's part of the great commission. You know, go out and you know baptize all nations in the name of the father the son and the Holy Ghost, and then you know Mark 1616 believe it is baptized shall be saved.

But even simply would not shall be damned.

I remember having a discussion with a guy named Craig Hayes and he teaches at Bible universities and no minimum Californian he's kind of thing like hey you know never mentions people who believe in art baptizes and his reasoning was that if you are a believer you will get baptized. Feel kinda saying that people who believe in and don't get baptized like they don't exist kind of was his is logic there. That's given me a lot of a lot of positive another thing that we talk about a lot in the in the forms is because of all the time right the thief on the cross. Well the thief on the cross wasn't baptized but the outcry still told him that he would be with him in paradise and I member on my mission. I got into this debate with like seven evangelicals at the same time and they brought that up to me and I'm like okay I get it.

You know the thief on the cross didn't have time to get baptized but you know say, hypothetically you get saved today and then Christ comes back in 10 years and you haven't been baptized. Are you still going to be saved and they all hesitated for a minute. They said yes, we would still be saved.

So I'm I do I'm on the fence with a lot of the stuff to still trying to wrap my mind around all of it because I mean Christ did did tell us to get baptized to baptize all nations, and that's the struggle with saying that it's just symbolic is like if it's just symbolic that it doesn't need to be done but it seems like there is quite an emphasis on it and so you I do get a little bit hesitant or get squeamish when you hear about somebody who's a believer, but you hardly been a believer for 10 years and they haven't been baptized and I don't know maybe you guys feel the same way or fungus out in left field on that now. I definitely agree that mixing does make me question her salvation, but a mixed one asked him why you know I want to know I would have to ask questions why they they don't feel baptism as is important that Michael just really casually named Craig Hayes and Mike and Craig yeah I do that sometimes Yahweh is on around like yeah I know Paul learned Bergen looking forward to recording a podcast like two years from now on you like yeah so you know after Connie got off stage and I gave my my presentation of the nose and met Craig Hayes on my mission because some of why investigators brought us over to his house so that we could get destroyed in the debate. So this is good times know I won that debate. Just kidding. It was a rough one within your email address for that's interesting that you brought that up. Actually kind of derailment Transvaal it's it's interesting to talk about. Why would someone reject the ordinances having a something you could even dive into really deeply.

Maybe I don't. Maybe I should mention I am on the podcast might trigger some people are something but you know when I was first leaving Mormonism and trying to figure out where I'm supposed to go. I watched a lot of Sean McCranie and that is me being triggered well through dramatic as you are you are you okay Jimmy like a breathalyzer oxygen tank or CPR something I think I'm okay now yet was closer so my life flash before my eyes said that when I said breathalyzer. I like women rather say that is any mention I just because like I was reading and watching lots of different stuff, you know, try to get ideas and he kind of felt like his view is like baptism. As you know it's good but you don't have to have it so you know you don't, you really need that he didn't really make it seem that important addendum.

As time went on I can learn why he feels that way because he is a hyper preaddressed meeting all the prophecies in Scripture were fulfilled in A.D. 70, so there's no visible church.

There's no elders or deacons.

You know, there's technically no official baptism, Lord's supper and all that's done with.

Very much so that's you know and and I and I think historically the church is kind of cute hyper predators in the something that does separate people from the Orthodox faith because it denies Christ's physical return to the earth, and physical resurrection. They believe that there is no physical resurrection, and I think that's beyond the line so that's why if someone were to say why don't want to be baptized or I don't think we need to be baptized and I don't want to the asked him why because if they go into that camp. It's like okay you know nice guy but you can claim a brother so yeah those interesting kind of coming yeah I mean it was when I became a believer and start going to church.

I mean it was really just right away, maybe was in the week or two by just felt so convicted and you know it's like man I want you to be happy until I get into the waters of baptism like I just wanted to do it so bad. So I agree and I want to know why somebody doesn't want to do it. I'm mad to be interested in that and when you're talking to your friend.

I forget exactly who said that normally they were Christians or baptized was Anya that was Elder Holland. I think Craig Hayes and the names out my same name drop but yeah was going to mention. So before before I was baptized. I think I finished it before is baptized. Maybe not. Maybe shortly after, but my pastors give me a book. It's called life in the father's house like a member's guide to the local church and it's written by one reform Baptist and one presbyterian. So it's pretty cool because like I said reform Baptist and Presbyterian share a lot of theology, but we do differ on some things, but it's a really great book.

I really recommend it, whether reformed or not.

It talks about the importance of the visible church, going to church being united to a body being have your name on the church roles in a church somewhere. You know, not just casually going church to church to church.

It's good for you. It's important for you and for the pastors because the pastors are the pastors the Baywatch of her flock, and if they don't know what the flock is how are they supposed to lead them how they supposed to protect them and nurture their spiritual growth. So that's why they really advocated for coming a member of the local church and I think that's really important, but they also mentioned that the ordinances are just so important, and when you do read the Scriptures.

There is validity to that to this idea that there are no really examples other than the thief on the cross of Christians who did not submit to baptism, and in Scripture. I Think of one off top my head. It's so linked when you when you see the conversion process you see the word being preached. You see people being convicted they are and how they show signs of repentance.

They exercise faith in Christ there baptized in the joint to a local body of believers.

You know it's like it's all contained. You can have one part of the other and so that's why I think I think that is really is essential me not essential to your eternal life in the sense of without exclusion. If you baptize, you can't go to heaven. I'm not saying that but I think it really is important for your spiritual growth and I think normally there is no salvation outside the church, in the sense that it's extenuating circumstances.

Normally, that should allow for someone to not be baptized, and not be part of the local church. You know to become like a Christian on the outskirts that isn't connected to a body.

I think that is in extenuating circumstances, but the normal means of of remaining olive of Christian life is in the church. So it's like cutting yourself off from the vine. If you're not baptize, if not in the church. If you're not active if a fellow shipping so I think normally I just sure that you, you do need to be part of the church, but again like their continuing circumstances and even Lutherans to say that baptism is necessary for salvation. Don't say it's not absolutely necessary, meaning that you can be saved and can be regenerated after faith through faith alone.

You can be justified, but you know this is necessary, meaning like it so important. If you have a chance. You gotta do it. I agree with that and I and I might personally I believe that there is debate as to who can give the ordinances we might talk more about that later of priesthood, but was quickly mention sinker things three. Paul is kind of the other kind of doubting the apostles authority.

Another trend there listening to other people who were claimed to be the super apostles. So we casted like reassert his authority and say what would also need to prove to you that I know that I have authority do I need to give you letters of recommendation, etc. etc. so then he says in verse four of section contains three such as the confidence that we have to Christ or God.

Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who is made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit, though I think there's passages like that to indicate that baptism normally in a normal church setting should be given by elders or pastors I know about Deacon's. I'm not sure how that works in their exactly, but normally elders and pastors, but of course like missionary circumstances, that's a different thing, I think, but normally that's reserved for elders because they are also ministers of the new covenant in the I believe that elders do have authority now. It's not absolute authority on the can't rule with an iron fist. There always submitting to the word of God and if they go against the word of God. You know they basically lose at authority but we do believe that there is authority in the office of elder or pastor but yeah when it comes to the efficacy of baptism.

Yeah, I definitely don't think it's merely symbolic and there are several passages. Interestingly enough, that speaking with Lutherans account made me the kind of grew that that that sentiment even stronger and you are dimension Romans six, Paul also mentioned first Peter three because that's a passage that they often they often show and say why don't you believe that baptism saves you.

So this passage is really difficult understand Peter is like like one of those genius guys on some other level and even the greatest Greek scholars really struggled understood keep track to understand what Peter is saying because he goes he jumps around a lot and he makes connections. It's hard to really follow him a little bit. So this is why most contested passages such Maria quickly sign in verse 18. In first Peter three for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which you went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water so I might go against parents.

Prison will talk about that later temples. But here's the part that's really important. Verse 21 baptism which corresponds to this speaking of Noah being saved to the water baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with Angels, authorities and powers having been subject to him so Lutherans really pushes passages say baptism saves you justifies you it regenerates you all that. So they believe that in baptism, it does give the gift of faith to infants to get to grant some salvation generation justification, and as long as they continue in the faith and exercise faith in Christ. They will keep that salvation.

But if they died of faith they will lose that salvation.

I don't believe that that baptism itself conveys salvation what it says here is baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you so there is a like an active current tense here. It now saves you so I don't think it's saying it justifies you in terms of a one time event in the past you know we we can speak of salvation in terms of past tense where God saved us, justified us where he saves us all, sanctifies us and grows us in faith and will save us meaning one were glorified will be completely saved from will be completely taken from the effects of sin.

So will be the sin nature will be gone will have no more sins will be completely purified and glorified with what the Lord so this is it now saves you when I read that I thought about it, it means that to me. Baptism is a one-time event but I think it still does. This continual process, it does something to you continually. What is it do it says not as a removal of dirt from the body.

So sockets literally physically washing the dirt off of you. But as an appeal to God for good conscience and appeal to God for good conscience, so it's appealing to God of something that's in us. I think it's appealing to God of the fact that we have been justified that we exercise faith in Christ that were born again so I think what is saying is he's telling is believing even baptize. This is an appeal to God that you been washing all your clean by the Holy Spirit.

So I think that baptism does continue throughout the life of the believer to sanctify them throughout time and performed often talk about the sacraments and the word and the preaching and and fasting and prayer, and all that is means of grace and these are all means whereby there benefits of redemption are applied to the believer. So there's different aspects of it. Like I said, justification, regeneration, baptism as far as baptismal regeneration. I don't think I don't believe a baptismal regeneration. I believe that regeneration is completely the monitor just a quirk of God meaning it's unilateral that's another big word only think of something smaller.

It's work that's a work of God alone in the heart of someone he has to change your heart first before you can believe, so it proceeds faith in Christ and this is because of the view of Scripture where men are born corrupt or born in sin were born rebellious against God.

So before we can even believe something is tap into his first to want to believe to be able to believe, so God has to regenerate us first and then we can exercise faith so and also as a Baptist is a reform Baptist.

I believe that baptism is not suitable for someone who has not exercise faith yet Presbyterians they have their covenant theology that believes that you should baptize infants because they are in the new covenant community as children of believers. They don't believe that that imparts salvation to the child it crap. It's a sign of salvation, but it doesn't mean they necessarily have what that sign signifies, whereas with reform Baptist. We see the new covenant as including only believers based on Hebrews 8 says that the law will be written on their hearts. They will know God, know you won't have to to say to your neighbor know the Lord because all will know the Lord. So they will all know the Lord.

So typically they have remission of sins, and these are signs that the believer, the difference between the old covenant a new covenant old, and had a mixture of believers and nonbelievers. New covenant believers only, so that's why we believe that boiling it down. Very roughly, but that's why we believe that baptism, Lord's supper for believers only, there's always good to be a false believer. Of course, so once you discover some of the falls believer in their partaking of the ordinances were sacraments. Everyone: when a partaking of those defective meaning that their partaking of them, but they don't have right to these de jure meaning they don't have the right to these ordinances, but their partaking of them. Once you discover a false believers partaking of them on rightfully. That's when they should be called repentance are thrown out of the church if that makes sense.

So ideally only new new covenant believers with particular ordinances, but we know in reality get messy and that's not really how it works out about we try to preserve as much as possible when much more detail. I should have but but I think of these passages like first Pier 321 I think it's important because we have to deal with this. What is it mean that is now saves you.

I don't think it regenerates you, but I do think it sanctifies you think thing is all I want to really mention what is changed experientially and partaking of the sacraments or ordinances of your Christian churches versus how you experienced them in the LDS church that you would like to share. For example, are they administered differently. Is there a difference in how you prepared for baptism and continue to prepare to receive the Lord's supper or communion. How often are they served. What is the atmosphere frame of mind the matter of how they are distributed etc. in your churches. So yeah, I mean it was such a is a giant change from being a latter-day St. because you know I mean baptism, first of all, there was nowhere near the amount of preparation.

I mean, for instance, in the Mormon church had to wait eight years to turn a certain age to be able to get baptized in. You know, since I became Christian I mean they were okay with me getting baptized as soon as I confess Christ, you know, the bishop meeting with me.

The bishop, the pastor United meeting with me after Canada going through some some lessons with me. But you know me, I guess.

Understanding all the particulars wasn't a prerequisite to me getting baptize yell faith in Christ was the prerequisite and it was so different because you know the whole congregation was there watching me get baptized in and they had me just give a little, you know like talk to the audience for a minute before I got baptized Jesus all quite different and there's a drum roll when they baptized me because I was going do you know one of those churches with the band initially and yeah maybe just basically had me sit in a vat of water and then there like yo do you do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. And I'm like yes and then they just put me under was no pretty straightforward, to the point and simple when it came to taking communion was definitely done a lot less. I think he was about once a month, saying it wasn't during the normal service it would typically be in the evening like first Wednesday night. You know they would do the Lord's supper than an thought it was really interesting that you know instead of it being passed to us. We would go up to a table in and get our crack are cracker and grape juice, and then it can just change dipping on the church I was going to do as well because we visited quite a few but yeah there was one where they did pass it and penetrated me, but then I was like you know what I actually do like this as well, but I think you and I would mention it earlier, but there's different difference in how I viewed both of those things because for me on the LDS church being baptized is I'm making a covenant with God. I'm making a bunch of promises that you know I'm not going to be able to keep and then I'm going to be extra condemned because I sinned against the greater lights, but in Christianity was a public announcement that I was making that I had accepted Christ and I give them my life and in seeming with communion unite used to be a big big guilt thing for me.

You know like LMI really worthy enough to take this or it will be the opposite effect and be taking communion, sitting there thinking man, I'm so righteous you know I definitely have earned the right to take this communion now. It's not about earning anything, so it is a symbol that Christ is done for me while I was still a sinner, something that I am not worthy of, and yet I'm able to take it because it is just as a symbol of the gospel. I think that's all I really have to say about it. Now that's great IQ valuable gases several things to touch on here. I talked little bit about my obvious how I kinda like that, I realize middle to going to the Northwest multipurpose center for some lessons when I was a kid going back in the locker room with my dad and going in the sauna sitting around when I talk about the saw and like you know my obvious substance to join the club method is using a little uncomfortable your order. Sue join the club because I was starting to oldies in the sauna towel wrapped around them. I want to clarify my father so it was just similar. When I went to the tabernacle baptized is you know everybody is arbitrary right for you because you were 10 right, but most latter-day St. Jesus do it whenever their state is having better baptism week and you just go and do a bunch of Return to this kind arbitrary date that you do it. And of course you go talk to the bishop and asked the baptismal questions as to status or like a professional for this. I don't know is a ritual you go through and I think a lot of kids just do it right without really thinking too much about why they're doing it. Might I commend you for when you were younger, as you mentioned in our intro nine talking about her parents and asking if it was something that that was needed because for me it really was just kind of joining the club all My class from school and from the war doing it and so did, but as a Christian, coming out of the LDS church. I did a lot of thought to what do I baptized again because even though like when I was a kid.

It was like joining a club and I didn't give much thought as I grew older and the LDS church course. I look back on it, like all that's that's when I decided to follow Jesus when talk to my pastor. Maybe for five months after we started attending church there and and have a conversation with him about baptism and she asked me if I'd been baptized before and you know was that in the name of the father the son and the Holy Ghost Holy Spirit told us it was after that that model that was when I was. I'm the kind of is the time when I began following Christ.

He told me know other pastors may not tell you this is best when you view it in your heart and I do not necessarily recommend you baptized and I thought about that for a while on my way from that meeting the school, and I don't have to be rebaptized in the church recognizes my morning baptism.

That's pretty cool as I thought about it night and I studied more of the Bible and realized that as a latter-day St., earlier in my life. I really wasn't worshiping the same God that I was beginning to worship now and I certainly wasn't worshiping Jesus in the way that I was beginning to now so I realize I had a different view of God that I have is a letter sent and that really made me want to that drastically different view of salvation and how salvation is a work of God and realizing that God brought me to that point completely. By his grace, and not by anything that I have done it really maybe want to seek true baptism so it was here in a few couple months after we started attending the Christian church that I went for Ms. baptized with my son and I remember thinking on this really will they allow me to baptize my son. I don't.

I'm not a pastor you know I don't have authority still learning a lot about you know Christian views of authority and baptized the kind of thing.

And so it really kind of surprising to you when I emailed our pastor is know my son I would like to baptized and I asked him baptize.

My son is likable, I baptize you, and you can baptize your son how's that work just wasn't computing in my mind is the whole building is present so it was kind of a kind of a cool thing to do so is funding a tire you know when you get baptized when I was LDS course addresses all in white jumpsuits writer the church that was attending had was going to transition pastors and so there were there were lots of changes taking place in the first few years that we were attending their attire during baptism was one of them so that like they had white baptismal robes you would put output on so when my son and I were baptized Mike a few months later, they changed to when the people been like shorts and T-shirt forgiven cool T-shirts that I was liking the true story T-shirt, but it was is interesting like the entire wasn't important so no latter-day trip letter sent the big deal about the white symbolic of new lifeless being being washed clean and so just wasn't the kind of emphasis placed on on the entire it's interesting to see women baptizing other women and girls, which I really like to see because a lot of times it's it's meaningful for like if there's a woman who has discipled another woman and preached the gospel and then met that woman is to baptized her friend that she was discipled. That's really kinda cool. Now it's coming okay and are able to see you later, Dr. told to hold grudges songs and talk until it goes down the desolate archers will hold like a baptism Sunday once a year, which people who have been baptized throughout the rest of the year and have been thinking about it first. For several weeks ahead of time will know announcing the baptism Sunday is coming to something that you wanted to know something meant that God is leading you to maybe now's a good time to do it and it's this is just like the whole Sunday service is, is baptism's and others.

There's the sermon it's usually shorter than a normal week. You just close the people baptized almost on those Sundays. People who have been attending the church for year two years and have been wrestling with DEW line rebaptized going to become a follower of Jesus and notices really comical thing and Michael mentioned like baptized drums to know that's part of baptism Sunday, but I avoid this kind of like really really cool because the celebration right.

It almost feels like you're celebrating with heaven for these people and rejoicing and clapping and it's really comical experiences to see I was experientially fast that for me has been the biggest difference is that baptism is celebration celebration of new lifeless celebration of what Jesus is done and accomplished great work of salvation and that it's the church where I attended that is treated as a celebration. I know know and I'll all allow for no Michael's feeling that maybe that's a little ostentatious but for me this is some slicker celebrations like produces like worship with regard to communion. Some of the different experiential differences in message given by know an elder or worship leader depending on the week is usually like soft music playing. Maybe just on acoustic guitar or or piano walking past is passed by men and women in small squares of hard unleavened bread versus the store brought bread broken up that we had an illness church versus water and also for me it's also time celebration.

Remember the Strattera Celica had to the like, put on a decision so it was so heavy you know them in my because I could never there was never a week where I didn't do something wrong you know that I sit there and think about manna, I messed up royally this week and is not nothing that I don't the repentance is the part of the community stands now, but it's not.

I don't have the feeling of just really all on me to be perfect each sentence known since time of repentance is also a time of worship and prayers to my Lord for what he's done for me is a different experience than when I was all yes Michael, you talk about the first time you took communion in a Christian church. He wept totally resonate with the fact that there is typing something in the chat on no okay that's a little can she hearing what you pay attention that we can go for another hour think you may cross the line the night Sabia last broadcast will have to find another Michael, another replaceable is there's a lot of Michael's is a very popular name is there are Bernard Michelson or Craig is in a store called Michael's. We just go there pick one up. That's where I came from Michael's tediously managing a husband, so she went to Michelson okay I'll be quick so yeah you both are for sure nice, it's really cool to hear your guys experiences it's it's interesting because were similar but not enough slightly to semi were not too dissimilar in our experiences for me for my back white jumpsuit or whatever. Basically I just wore black pants and Jessica gray shirt great button up shirt but we have about a baptismal font in our church which is really nice so we they open that up and they were excited for the baptism. Everyone is excited because there really just aren't that many baptisms in our church and it already been like at least two or three years and they had a baptism and it was someone who was the son of you know, one of the main families in our church so they hadn't had like a Leica someone fresh just randomly off the street getting baptized for a long time so they are really excited about that and I was excited to and I was worried it was interesting because preparing for baptism is worried that I would you know that because while I was baptized by immersion. After I professed faith in all that stuff is a Mormon, maybe you will feel special. As a Christian, you know, maybe it will feel like the same thing. So I was looking into it historically is like wonder if I could ask my pastor for like a special you know you know special something something different to differentiate it and like one thing if you go back in the early think secondary first or second centuries. There is a there is a historical case of people doing trying baptisms with that what that is is basically dump somebody. Basically, face first into water and you do it three times so they put them face first in the name of the father pull them back up in the name of the son pull them back up and then in the name of the Holy Spirit. They pull back up so Scott like to emphasize the Trinity is interesting and I was like thinking the mission is the pastor that but I thought now really is simply for symbolizing the death, burial and resurrection of Christ you know that only happened once, so I'll stick and I'll stay with that even though Mormons can use that same sump symbolism. But so is preparing for it and they wanted me to write a short testimonial usually is like a couple minutes or something like that.

But yeah, you're right Paul. They do, they do try baptism. They also do it by immersion to maybe not full immersion but at least dipping the babies in the font three times anyways.

So I prepared my testimony for my baptism and it was a couple time is usually supposed be like to do five minutes but they said something like a special case.

They had had a baptism for a while. I had a really long testimony someone into being like 10 to 20 minutes so we were standing in the font is on stage kind of thing so we were slightly elevated above the rest of the congregation in size reading on my testimony were standing in the water and like after about the 10:29, 15, 20 minutes of me reading my testimony. You know you start to get the know the soggy feet you know they stick to absorb the water and you know like a man passively freezing to death. I should finish up know I got a really good reaction from people are listening to testimony and it was really excellent times to praise God and thank him for what he done to me in my life and bring me on Mormonism and it it it it touched me emotionally and spiritually in and everything just thinking back in all experiences that had you know failed engagements coming home from a mission envisioning myself being in the church is my life and feeling like a failure and wondering what to do with my life and then just having God just reach out and grab me and pulled me to him is a really is just awesome to think about my past experiences up to that point and something of note, there was interesting is usually the pastor asked several questions, I can't member all them you know Dean, do you renounce the devil always works, you know, do professed faith in Christ, things like that so you suggested all those and then he said normally what he does. He takes a handkerchief to cover your mouth and nose. When he put me under.

But he forgot it to Mr. Wright but he didn't realize that until he was arty starting to dunk me select basically my mouth and face and stuff are just open to water though, so I got some pretty bad water my nose that was fine and I could tell he was kinda shocked right right as he was doing and he realized although I don't have it. Nose really beautiful service and it was it was on a Sunday so it was at the beginning of the day so we we have service and we ended that service short to to do the baptism and then we had lunch break is great.

Just a fellowship of people in and after I was baptized in water. So I said for the congregation and pastor and lay hands on my head, but he kind of put his hand on my shoulder and then we bowed in prayer thanking God for for bringing you know bring me to him for joining me the church and then so that the asked about from the membership you not they would accept me to the church and that they voted unanimously. Yes.

So then I was allowed to be a member of the church so sisterly special moment because I been preparing for literally years, like I think I I had been studying baptism, you know I'll try to go back and forth.

I was reported to be a Presbyterian Church or Baptist Church. That study covenant theology and on the differences between Presbyterians and reform Baptists. And like I cannot decision that wanted to stay there for Baptist Church and 17 round early summer as I crept forward to my internship said the pastor had like to learn and I like to join the church and I thought it would be like maybe a couple months time. No waiting a few months of preparation and easy start off by saying you know it's going to be a while so I didn't know how long was he to be in it being over two years. I think so. I started meeting with my pastor. We started going over the London Baptist confession. I read a lot. We talk we had meat over at my pastor's house for you know all those months we took breaks because of my internship and other reasons, so I felt like I was long as Pro is partially due to my internship so supply would've been probably more than a year preparation time anyways. It was it was worth it in the end of value baptized.

I was worried you know I had, at the last moment had these thoughts like this. Thoughts of you guys mention you know you think about my worthy of this.

Maybe I have things I need to repent of.

Maybe there's things that I would overcome yet that I need to repent of the Fortney baptized the register member that you know do I trust Christ and it's like, you know, obviously yes of course I put my faith in Christ I trust in my trust that he's my only righteousness before God that that his work on the cross is all I have to trust in for my salvation, and so no worry about what I'm good enough or I deserve baptism to join the church. It's really not the right questions to ask and says do you do you put all your faith in Christ to save you. I think that's what we need to remember and so I just Remind myself that reading and preparing. It was a really wonderful event in the pastor thanked me and that he felt spiritually edified. So is really grateful for that entire experience and I think that I try to think back my baptism a lot not is like the monogram say because if I go save when I put my trip faith in Christ. But I do look back on it, similar to how Lutherans do in the sense that there are promises that God gives his people, and I think that baptism is kind of a way of just confirming that the God God promises that he will be our God and that he will you know he'll always be there for us and so is Calgary confirmation of that from when you're justified their faith reconfirms an baptism in a sense. And so with overfilled doubts yelling well and maybe a Christian sometimes you know I said I don't really doubt that much, but there are thoughts that come across my mind and I think now I trust in Christ you not been baptized into Christ is Romans six is an and I trust in him alone so he's my Savior and and trust in him.

And as far as the Lord's supper. It's similar to the LDS church where we have bred their snares. There is people that have a gluten allergy so we have gluten-free bread so my favorite but you know I'm just excited to have the Lord supper at all. So we have a big loaf and then we we pray, and I guess you say. Be blessed and then we distributed amongst the congregation. The deacons usually pass out around deacons for LDS are wondering, deacons are not 12-year-olds in Christian churches. There usually adults so usually so so the adult deacons would pass around the that the bread and then we hold it in her hand until were done finishing the him and then we all consume the bread all at once, so I really like that because you know you really feel like it's a communal act like you're all fellow shipping together, all taking at the same time you're all rejoicing in Christ and in repentance is part of it. I think I quite like you mentioned Paul, but you know when I was old yes it was more just like going through a checklist of like all the sins I commit that we can like man was bad enough to keep from working out from the sacrament and should I repent that or maybe I shouldn't take it this week or maybe I'll just wait a week or 296, something about yourself, know worrying about me and my sins and my good enough I do I deserve it but really is focusing on Christ and that's that's what we should be focusing on and we don't we don't take wine we take grape juice. I'm not a stickler about that, you know that doesn't bother me, and we do the same way we passed the cups around. We take it altogether. After seeing him and it's really special experience to have that and to drink it together and to remember Christ's body and blood that he shot Freston and I guess of the reformed view is that we believe that sacramental you're being rude not read your being united to the benefits of the body and blood of Christ, so his body is in heaven.

He's at the right hand of God in on his throne, but when we're when we're partaking of the sacrament were being spiritually communing with Christ and all the benefits of his body and blood are also given to us young through sanctification and strengthening our faith. It's just a wonderful experience to think that you know were it's not it's not just a past tense thing where Christ died on the cross and I to me. I'm just thinking back to what he did.

It's thinking okay Christ is in my life right now. He's he's intervening in my life right now. He's granting the grace he's giving me the strength I need to get through each and every day and he is conforming me more into his image and in the you know we fluctuate always in our walk with Christ. But I think that these are means of grace that do strengthen us in the faith, website hosting, and maybe dessert second, maybe like a short thing a message to Latter Day Saints. Did you year you have messages wanted to leave with the listeners whether Latter Day Saints or Latter Day Saints. Yeah, I think so.

Just a quick stir, quick experience, and then something I would I would share or challenge him to think about. So shortly after we left the LDS church. I went down to Dallas to visit my brother was having his daughter christened. My guess is this is a different trip.

Sorry, but I went on the Dallas. It is my brother meet. We attended church with the middle Lutheran Church ready dose and they were taking the Lord's supper and then in Matthew think you mentioned that you wouldn't have a problem taking more stubbornness.

This was shortly after I left the LDS church and you know I was sitting there with my mom and mind you listen to the sermon and then the time came to take Lord's supper and I went forward to take it and I remember my mom when I came back and sat down by her. She was weeping and you know we talked about that afterwards and yesterday was painful for her to see both of her sons partaking of the Lutheran right when you know is Latter Day Saints G viewed that as not valid expression of the Lord's supper and it was. She told me it was very painful for her and I'm just now just ask Latter Day Saints. You know why. Why would that be a painful thing enough Latter Day Saints is a really want to do.

Recently, more so than than prior generations of my reasons, but if Latter Day Saints are wanting to be recognized as just another Christian denomination, why would it be painful for someone who left Latter Day Saints for two partaking in the Lord's supper with other believers. Unless there are differences that are so serious that they are viewed as necessitating a break in communion and I would suggest that there are doctrinal differences between the Latter Day Saints faith and historic Christianity that that are serious enough that they necessitate a break in communion and and therefore denied. I understand why it was on why was painful for my mom and we know we talked about that but you know I think it's one of those situations that points out that there are major differences, so this letter is to consider that.

I think if it doesn't say anything. The latter day saints, it would just be to I would just challenge you to take a deeper look at your self and your beliefs, especially with the saving ordinances in the covenants and knowing that the God is a jealous God is there in balance your life you I want you to ask yourself are the ordinances and the covenants that you are keeping and that you value are they covering up the grace of Jesus Christ and are they covering up the need that we have for for him as a person and in his saving grace. I think I think that's probably the biggest thing that just needs to really be considered. So that would be my challenge is also a great time think if there's anything out why I always point whenever whenever I talk to Latter Day Saints Tronic.

I try to go over three topics. Who is God who is Christ. What is the gospel and for me it really convinced me that we don't need special priesthood Melchizedek priesthood around a priest in whatever we don't need special ordinances are sacraments to gain access to Christ is the fact that just read Romans just Romans one through five so so clear.

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. It was through his faith that God justified him in James two is not speaking of justification, the sense of being right with God. He sees he's criticizing those who claim to have faith but they have no works and such people have a false faith is not at your faith because true faith will always befall the good works so I was just recommend that you read this chapter is prayerfully and just think okay if I can be justified or declared righteous through faith apart from works. Do I need baptism, confirmation, temper ordinances, all that to the right with God. This is the outer please visit you free to send us a message. There appreciated. We also have and how to write. Also send this on your can subscribe to the brightness contrast on Cass box cast the stitches. Also you can check if you like.

Shortly just one lungs and sometimes Poland will music for the outer brightness podcast is graciously provided by the talented Breanna Flournoy and by Adams Road. Learn more about Adams Road. By visiting their ministry page.

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