The Mormon CHAMELEON Part 1

Your right and him and by fireflies talking about telling us about article you wrote was published in two parts and bigger spread is titled the Mormon chameleon the ever-changing gospel of the LDS church. Matthew welcome to the Outer Banks podcast is a resident author this week, examining it quick plug for those who may be new to the podcast if you'd like to hear how God drew Matthew out of Mormonism to faith in Christ alone. You can listen back taxes nine through 11 Matthew tells the story. Matthew what are your minor listeners what Baker's writers tell us why he wrote this article and who the intended.

The intended audience is that you have in mind.

So basically from Stan bigger spread is a website that is that is owned and operated by Fred are friend of Fred Anson and so he publishes a lot of articles there related to the LDS church and People he knows personally. Our Associates.

He also publishes their articles so Michael and I have some articles closer to you and Paul' did I think you during this okay so so so a lot of articles are so they're all just kind of related to the LDS church and are not focused on one particular subject, but there, while a wide scope of subjects that are toxic of articles on the website. So this article that I wrote the Mormon chameleon the ever-changing gospel of the LDS church so was originally just something I came up with this kind of off the cuff. I started writing some articles that were posted on Facebook is Facebook notes so when I get kind of inspired, I guess you could say, for lack of a better word I would just had an idea that I would start writing about it and out posted on Facebook so all my Facebook notes are all publicly available. There's this article is slightly changed for a bigger spread, but it's basic at the same content over another. Articles like on you know the Sabbath of written also on baptism. Things like that. So this one I was interested to write about. Just because it seemed like I would see a consistent pattern when witnessing to Latter Day Saints is that with every single person I would talk to. It seems like they would use almost an entirely different apologetic from each other to where I would ask a question to one Latter Day Saints and he would give me a totally different response to another one and it just seemed like depending on the situation. It seemed like the way that the gospel as believed by Latter Day Saints was kind of presented in totally different ways and I've found that kind of troublesome when you're all supposed to be claiming that Protestantism is the problem where we have "30,000 denominations, which is a highly bloated number and so the solution to that is to believe in our church in our gospel.

But then when you present the gospel and what it means to be saved or to know God and you're presenting in totally different ways. I don't see how that's any better solution than Simply many different Christians who have slightly different understanding of Scripture. So I'm kind wrote this article to kind of address that and to try to tackle why that would be the case, why would be presented in a different way and in what ways the gospel is presented differently by Latter Day Saints. So the title the Mormon chameleon. I like I kind of use are titled to show that depending on which situation you're in which person you're talking to LDS gospel changes colors like a chameleon would so it's it's like you have to try to address the LDS gospel Emily differently in any situation because you don't you don't know which you know which gospel you going to be presented with so you kind of as a Christian apologist to kind of have to be prepared and and know what what you're going to be talking to.

And it's also gift asked some questions to find out they believe first because they could be totally leaving something totally different from another Latter Day Saints. So sometimes I find your spending 20 measures asking questions okay will what you believe about this. What you believe about this so it's it's kind of difficult.

There's not a one-size-fits-all apologetic with Latter Day Saints. That's a good point, stubbornly challenging, and you do have to ask questions because the doll you can find yourself in a situation where you going off in a direction assuming that they believe one thing and then get upset with you, but I believe even if the lines are following this kind of the straight Orthodox LDS belief you. You will find individual Latter Day Saints believe something is different from from what other Mormons believe Michael you comments on that before you jump in the article say that I totally agree with what Matthew saying is seen that a lot of times to ask you.

A saints you where you believe our righteousness comes from her know you.

Do you believe that gracious enables us and we become perfect our own and I could see them all over the board with that question and someone will say oh we do our best in Christ makes up the rest and I'll see some of them saying Michael Grace enables lasting and it's it's all up to us. From that point, but it's there to empower us and I see a lot of things these days, saying that United States.

Christ's righteousness, it's not our own, and so messy sentence just depends on what Latter Day Saints you're talking to you. I do the same thing I start with lots of questions, probably 80% station initially with the Latter Day Saints just to be asking them where they are because they feel like for each member of the church. What number they're staying there right now. Since 14 million or why it seems like there's 14 million gospels out there challenge so listeners will replenish duvets just kind of walk through Matthews article Hill recession we got some discussion questions that Matthew Carmichael and I will put them something that sounds great for section I was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the LDS or Mormon church from the age of 10 until 30 when I officially resigned in 2017, I served a faithful two year evangelistic and service mission to Belgium and France between 2007 and 2009 since God showered grace upon me to learn the truth of the LDS church that it does not follow the gospel, and it does not worship the God as written in the old and new Testaments of the holy Scriptures. I have come to receive a knowledge of the true Lord Jesus Christ God from all eternity to all eternity took upon flesh to die for my sins, and to exercise a zinc saving faith in him. In the time since I resigned from the church. I have communicated with those who are still members of the LDS church and attempted to have respectful loving dialogues with them. I know most of them are more people who claim to seek truth and follow Jesus. However, they have been blinded by a system that does not accurately teach the Christ that Christianity has worship for nearly 2000 years. Their view of who he is what he actually accomplished on the cross and how to be in a right relationship with him has been distorted by teachings given by the first president and clinical profit of their church. Joseph Smith Junior he emphatically denied the God from the Bible which says that he is God. Quote from everlasting to everlasting."

From Psalm 90 verse two when Smith said this at a sermon for a funeral funeral ceremony quote from going to tell you how God came to be God and what sort of a being he is. For we have imagined that God was God from the beginning of all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so you may see you once was a man like one of us and that God himself the father of us all once dwelled on earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh, and like us," at this moment of time. Joseph Smith eternally severed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from biblical and true Christianity and declared war upon those who do believe and follow the Bible when I evangelize Latter Day Saints and tell them they are not actually Christians.

I do so out of love for them and their salvation and not out of spite. However, I do so in acknowledging that we do not have fellowship and they are not yet my brothers in Christ. As long as he continued teaching and believing what the LDS church has to say about Christ and the gospel.

When I speak with Latter Day Saints. I try to touch on the most important points of sharing the gospel.

They must understand one who God is, to who Christ is and what he accomplished during his incarnation, and three. What the good news of the gospel is what makes these tests difficult is that in an era interacting with Latter Day Saints. Each has their own description of what the gospel is how we have a right relationship with our Creator and how we returned to live with God.

After this life. I've heard many different descriptions. In speaking with them.

The following are some examples of things I've heard I've heard from various Latter Day Saints at the gospel is one becoming more like their heavenly father to becoming like Christ. Three.

Receiving eternal life by obedience to the quote laws and ordinances of the restored gospel." For the plan of happiness. Five. What Jesus did for us that we couldn't do ourselves. Six the way to return to heaven with our families forever. Seven receiving forgiveness of sins, eight the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the way to receive the clinical restored gospel is according to the preach my gospel handbook that is given to everything a missionary quote invite others to come into Christ by helping them receive the restored gospel through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement, repentance, baptism receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end." Yet I hear from Latter Day Saints that the purpose of the gospel or the way to return to live.

Heavenly father differs.

Some say one we have to humble ourselves and accept Christ to we are only saved by grace, but we have to receive ordinances and keep the commandments and our covenants to to receive them. Three.

The Gospels meant to transform us to be more like God. It isn't a set of rules or do's and don'ts for we are to prove our faithfulness to God by keeping our second estate with the first estate being the pre-mortal life where Latter Day Saints believe we all lived in heaven with God before coming to earth. And since we came to earth it shows where you were faithful and kept our first estate, faithfully five. We are to love God and our neighbor, and if we have loved enough then God will allow us into heaven.

Six. We have to love Jesus and keep the commandments as best as we can. We don't have to be perfect and Jesus will make up the rest. However, if you look at those various definitions, some of them seem to be theologically shallow, focus more on emotions or not getting into the heart of the matter and some are even mutually exclusive meeting. They all cannot be simultaneously true. We are either saved by God's grace, or we must keep the commandments in order to be saved. That is one is the gift of the gospel and want to salvation by works, even if God is helping us to keep the commandments. It is still up to us to get to heaven. Salvation is entirely a gift or something you work for, but according to the Bible. Salvation is entirely gift and not something we received by any measure of our works quote for it is by grace you have been saved through faith. This is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

And that's Ephesians 289 so let's really enjoy the first part of the first section of your article.

Why, why do you think is so important to focus on who God is upfront with Latter Day Saints because as Latter Day Saints when we were members. We believe that we knew who God was and we knew God was more correctly and more fully than Christians did that either.

Christians didn't believe the Bible what it says about God or that the Bible had been corrupted or was incomplete and didn't give a full picture of who God is so when we talk Latter Day Saints and we say we even say the word God in our minds we picture something totally different than what a Latter Day Saints thinks up in their mind as God. Usually Latter Day Saints will think of when I think of God are specific specifically thinking of the father and only the father and they think of the father as many of them will think of him as simply man of the body and they said he's eternally been gone and they don't want to worry about how he got his body. The traditional LDS theology is that God was a man like us on another planet who is faithful to his God and the gospel and to through his obedience and faithfulness. He was exalted to godhood. You definitely hit on that because you quoted from the can file a sermon which itself isn't canonized in LDS scripture but do you think that most Latter Day Saints incorporate.anyway into their thinking of the nature of God and if you do while you think that's the case. While it seems to be changing quite a bit nowadays. But traditionally, yes, they that was kind of looking for discourses and technically canonized a scripture but it it was so fundamental to temple work is so fundamental to understanding the nature of God and and our purpose here on this earth that it was just part and parcel with LDS gospel that seems to be changing nowadays. But traditionally, yes, they saw this, they saw the nature God is so fundamental to the religion that it's what drove them to do temple work in the first place a given their purpose. They stay saw the path that the father followed to receive exaltation and to be married and have spirit children and so that's the path that they would follow so you you can't separate the nature of God and who he is, from how they understand the gospel.

I guess I do love people of change that or they've try to reinterpret the king follow discourse and what Smith said about the nature of God, but I don't think that's something that's historical understanding of it.

So the people of Euless just tried to ignore the king follow discourse altogether. But that causes stomach problems when looking for discourses. Probably the most quoted discourse. That's not scripture in all general conference addresses and talks so I don't think you can just say that it's not valid arts on authoritative when it's been quoted so often by so many prophets and their general conference by digressing straightaway between everybody in the church to if you're saying that that's not authoritative because like you're saying it.

If that's the nature of God and also effects our nature. You know like if it were literally his children.

The Nymex Wisconsin embryo and everything that we do in the temple as far as getting married, for eternity is just following that same path.

Let's look what Mormonism is all about. It's following the example right God and so just down from that very talking about is the nature of God. It affects every single thing in Mormonism and so the moment you see the team follow. Discourse is not authoritative for Joseph Smith. Young wasn't speaking the truth. There it just dismantles everything and more. Would you agree with that. When you completely redefine how they believe God is then I don't see why I should be a Latter Day Saints so when they tried to transmogrified or transform whatever word you want to use to turn God to be more like how Christians believe them to be. It's like okay will then know what benefit do, how to become a latter-day St. like that's their big selling point. I mean if you want to use that terminology is that they have such a phenomenally different view of God that's more understandable and it gives you a purpose that gives you direction to head towards like okay I understand that now God is a man just like I was, and he had to go through temptations like I do. So you know I can become like him because he he made it so that's where I'm headed. But if you get rid of that and you try to try to change it to something totally different than the eldest gospel, falls apart by great because it's it's almost like lately.

The idea of becoming like God and Latter Day Saints thighs as you speak with Latter Day Saints is is is more just akin to the idea of sanctification.. Rather than the whole embodied becoming of a God of your own planet kind of view that earlier Latter Day Saints might have helped you in six interesting to see the transition taking place in you and you also hear them. According to early church fathers, although it's always on the context is just a phrase here and there, talking about how God became man so man can become God and but you have to understand that that was a totally different context and worldview and even back then they hadn't really quite pinned down their theological language so there is such a figure things out back in the early church so you'll hear I think it's just a martyr who talks Jesus is the second God. So a lot of Latter Day Saints appointments AC believe that Jesus was a completely separate God in being an separate person is like. I don't think Justin Martyr he was at the you know the very beginning of the second century Alta geek. I had it all figured out it was is probably his way of explaining well. The fathers God and Jesus is God. So he's the second God. But it's not it's not saying to separate God and and then when they quote these passages are these quotations about the Osos.

I think understood from a biblical perspective. The Osos is not incorrect. I think the essence can be understood correctly and it's kind of just a different way of explaining sanctification when you're becoming more conformed to the image of Christ and you become partakers of the divine nature.

These are both biblical phrases so understood correctly, that's fine, but to say that these pat these quotations about the Osos say that you can become your own God. Just like God became God and will all be gods of our own universes and creations will have spirit children, things like that that was completely not even in the mind of the early church fathers so it's it's just kind of unfortunate are difficult because because the other that the crux of the matter is we have to know who God is, we can't even Joseph Smith admitted this in the articles on faith. There is dispute as to actually wrote those articles, but pretty sure he he had a lot to do with them. So on articles on faith. He said that you can just have faith in God or in something you have to know what the object of your faith is to some extent if you don't know the object of your faith.

You can't really have much faith in them. So we have to know who God is and so that's what's really important for us to talk LDS, others that with regards to the quotes from the early church fathers is important to keep in mind that a rule of faith in terms of theology and practice is the Bible writers God's word as wives and parents important as the early church fathers are. They are not our rule of faith and there are things in which they are wrong and can can be.

In fact, viewed as wrong because they are there on the same or heretical in all cases. I'm saying there there fallible men. And so they're not the word of God and end point to them. When my recent pointer was kind of an interesting tactic because on the one hand, latter-day St. belief and and the whole purpose of the existence of a restored church is is this idea that the church fell away and ended used to be that they would point to very early nutritional work the way very early and so the point to early church fathers as if there presenting truth is, this kind of an interesting tactic from library science. I get that they're trying to point to all sealers. These laden ideas that they still continued into the second third centuries with some of these church fathers, and therefore those laden ideas are what was true and what was being lost over time, but I just don't think that tactic really works Ashley when they'll be quoting a father from Reno as late as the third or fourth century that seems to be at least on the surface and how they're interpreting.

It's something that Latter Day Saints would agree with over biblical or historical Christians would and they say that is proof of like will see the here's where glimmers of the gospel of the restored gospel were still being taught but then when you ask okay will then why do you disagree with him on infant baptism. When you disagree with him on baptismal regeneration from their perspective, why you disagree with not one God only, and I'll say well that's proof the apostasy. So when I say something that agrees with their doctrine. That's proof that there gospel is true.

But then when they quote you show them quotes from them in something that's incorrect. According to the gospel than those they will desperately apostasy. So it's all a bit insistent that that'll take on that just putting in a little bit as I think that's incredibly shaky ground to try to quote from the early church fathers and the same thing when Latter Day Saints try to quote from the Bible and support their beliefs as well because the book of Mormon says that plane and precious Jews were removed from the Bible. I would say that a little bit of apostasy in those regards constitute the total apostasy. No a little leaven leavens the whole low and so there's the Bible that are not correct or cure the whole thing needs to be thrown out description in my opinion I don't think they can really stand on that ground and try to promote their beliefs. I think that's the big problem they're facing. With that, whether they realize it or not, will be pleased to the question of the great apostasy that is taught within Mormonism. When we get to our articles for silver recover. What about precision church structure and what about continuing revelation so close those episodes will be coming up in the next month or so two months so so Matthew want one final question on the section why, why do you think we share so many different definitions of "the gospel from Latter Day Saints. I think it's typically it is driven by that person's understanding of what the LDS church teaches and I think also the conversation because you could find even the same latter-day St. that you talk to, you could talk to them about how we are saved were justified or adopted by grace alone and point to passages in Scripture that say that and then they will respond back by asking, well, does that mean we don't have to keep the commandments. I mean, we don't have to love Jesus does that mean we don't have to do anything.

We just get a free ride to heaven and then you'll explain that the difficult position, as I know we we know are called to live for Christ and repent and do good works, but those do not contribute toward justification.

Justification is the gift of God, and it's given to us freely by God through faith alone so they will say okay they will really emphasize works and commandment keeping and law keeping. And then the next minute when you say okay will then how are you righteous before God are user by works or by face and then they will kind of turn the other foot in the they'll say well it's by grace so that had to say will wait hold up you just said that you have to keep the law and order to return to live with heavenly father to be to be good to be justified and then now you're saying the opposite that you're just justified by grace and so it seems reactionary most of the time I think to where they don't want to be seen as one thing or the other. So the back step and say well no I don't mean this, but I mean this or they might just directly contradict themselves are not really notice or care about the contradiction. I think it's also when you're when you're talking with them about what it means to return to his heavenly father.

I noticed is to with other groups where they'll use phraseology from the Bible to support their beliefs, but it's a little bit deceptive so there is a passage in Galatians where Paul talks about faith working through love and so they'll say that's what we believably and salvation. You know God is working you know it's faith working through love and then in that phrase the working through love. They squeeze and the ordinances a squeeze in all the commandments. They squeeze in following the prophets. All these other requirements in order to be to be righteous before God and so I think it's it's a little bit deceptive to be using Scripture that way, but they want. They have this desire to be biblical because I think they understand many of them understand that okay yeah there is a lot of evidence that the Bible is reliable.

This narrative that the Bible just been corrupted that it's just been totally changed its it does not run much evidence of it other than just believing it.

So many of them have taken the route of well okay let's start off with taking the Bible is reliable, but instead of just starting with the Bible on and divulging our theology from that. Let's take the Bible phrases and let's fit what I already believe into the Bible so it's not deriving your theology from the Bible. It's putting your theology into the Bible and so so there's different reasons. I think the people defend or give different presentations of the gospel. Those are just a couple ideas I have of tough my head, but I think it's also just with modern anyone just modern Latter Day Saints that culture. It's also just with modern Christianity. We want to make everything about love. So I think one of the definitions I gave is just like salvation is lessee.

It's it's about loving God, or if we love God enough than God will love us and will be like him or something like that. So it sounds very flowery. It sounds very inviting and nonintrusive or nonoffensive.

So it's it's I'm maybe it's a different way to try to evangelize people to get them interested in the LDS gospel to be like over just all about love. God is very loving and so we just have to love God and that's the whole gospel. I can't say exactly why know why they do that but these are just kind of ideas and have my head as to as to why they might present the gospel and complete different ways in light of what you're saying to with the evangelism. I think you can hit it on the head right there to think the fact that there talking to Sandy and we are Protestants and we want to hear about grace.

I think they know that and so I think they do tailor the message a little bit based on who they're talking to make the church seem more appealing to draw us in uniform not aware of what the instructor actually teaches you know I was just talking to Latter Day Saints. One of the forms the other day where he said you know there is no path to heaven. Jesus is the path and I said to him, can you explain to me than what difference between your beliefs and Protestant beliefs are, and he never responded slowly let me throw the question Michael and Susan to think that there is a generational difference in this regard is is the result possibly of more recent LDS teachings from general authorities and ends when the apologists that there's more of a focus on grace now than in the past, I think so and you got units of the speeches from Brad Wilcox become big and people listen to that is I think people really like the idea of grace. You know it's been a couple of generations of Mormonism now and I think people are cannot and realizing how difficult it is.

I think there's a lot of stress and depression. You know the world when you can't be perfect in your religion demands it so that was throwing a lifeline of grace makes it feel like it's possible you know this is this is exciting is just one more thing for them to add to.

I guess there there there talking about how God is so merciful, you know. Not only does he give us another chance after this life, but he extends Grayson that were grace given mean something totally different to every Latter Day Saints thing, on the other hand, there also just getting better at speaking Christian as well and so some Christians. The only thing Mormons are becoming closer to being Christian.

I said no because I think they're just getting better talking to us so that it seems like they are and I member one time I was on my mission and I was talking to this young couple and the guy was just like you, I heard something that's true but I believe you guys can become God's and I flat out denied it nice that nobody we can't and then in the car with my companion. I said you know my answer.

That way is as training and I said you know we all learn line upon line and precept upon precept, and he wasn't ready for that, you know, he was hunting negative reaction so that was my way of unit from his perspective. He probably thought all Mormons don't believe that that's that's crazy but unit was all about evangelism and me trying to soften the message and make it look more appealing. So this is Canada, some background there is one of the challenges I face as well vandalizing when I was Latter Day Saints was constantly told, like you do in a message like when you're saying no line upon line, precept upon precept, don't jump into deeper doctrine of the milk before me.

All of those kinds of messages and their members as a letter is A second missionary we were actually discouraged from ever giving an investigator like a copy of the document covenants and pearl of great price that was something that that was discouraged from them receiving until they were baptized which I thought was a little bit misleading because much of the distinctive Latter Day Saints doctrine is in the document covenants and pearl of great price, rather than the book of Mormon so it's it's almost like a bait and switch.

If you play it that way and ends at the same time. If you look at those old you know discussions that we taught when I was on my mission before preach my gospel. There really wasn't anything about eternal progression did get into the temple, and eternal marriage in the discussions and there were certainly talk of the apostasy of the great apostasy, but you never got into your God the father has embodied kind of language within the discussion, so this is definitely a challenge and I do think there's a generational difference, though, because I think some younger Latter Day Saints. They're not hearing the message is the same type of messages from the pulpit of Gen. conference.

Older generations Latter Day Saints heard Matthew you mentioned that the King Follett sermon. This is one of the most quoted. I think that's probably dwindling. It's probably not as quote is not quoted as often as it used to be. And so it's interesting that there has to be your YouTube channels like saints unscripted to present to younger generations Latter Day Saints located at. We do believe in this eternal progression.

You know it's kinda interesting when you do encounter some younger Latter Day Saints. You don't know about that. That doctrine so something is an ad to visit.

I do not have different thoughts about this because I don't know why I think it's better overall that we have clear lines in the sand between you know what we believe in Latter Day Saints believe is blurring of the lines.

I think in general just muddies the whole situation. At the same time I was thinking what if Latter Day Saints grows up in the church. They never hear this idea that they're in good become God's all they care about is that they worship one God and that they are saved by grace. Is it possible that they can be saved in contradiction to what LDS theology has taught for decades. You know, maybe that's true maybe it's possible. Maybe there's a better chance of someone being saved in the LDS church today than 100 years ago where everybody clearly knew the differences between what they believe in what Christians believe. I don't know. Not really sure that's mean, I know that that God's in control of everything.

So maybe maybe he's working in the hearts of these LDS leaders try to make them sound more biblical and it's kind of just confusing wanted Latter Day Saints for maybe a lot of people are hearing the what they hear in their minds or what they hear at the pulpit is actually something more akin to the true gospel and maybe they are being saved. I don't know it's common interesting thing to think about that direct back you want to tackle the second section of your article or when discussing what the gospel is according to Latter Day Saints. I will usually be given different requirements for attaining eternal life from them and from what previous leaders of the LDS church have provided in a BYU devotional address, titled be therefore perfect given on September 17, 1974 LDS president and prophet Spencer W. Kimball said, quote, let me say then that perfection is still our goal is reached by climbing steadily upward, controlling all our desires, impulses and urges. It is possible. Remember that the Lord gave us Abraham as an example and quoted him often quote Abraham received all things whatsoever. He received by revelation and commandment by my word, saith the Lord, and have entered into his exaltation and soothe upon his throne" from D&C 132 29. This is not a promise. It is a reality going. Therefore, and do the works of Abraham enter Ian's my lawn. You shall be saved. That is D&C one 3232. Perfection is a long, hard journey with many pitfalls. It's not attainable overnight eternal vigilance is the price of victory. Eternal vigilance is required in the subduing of enemies and becoming the master of oneself cannot be accomplished in little spurts and disconnected efforts. There must be constant and valiant, purposeful, purposeful living. Righteous living, the glory of the Lord can be had only through correct and worthy marriage and living a clean where the life that's ending of answer to "in a book titled the miracle forgiveness written by future LDS Pres. Spencer W. Kimball. He writes that perfection is not only a commandment but it is an attainable goal for Latter Day Saints quote eternal life hangs in the balance, awaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula. The Lord gave us in his sermon on the mount. He made the command to all men be therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect for Matthew 548 being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind he would never require anything from his children, which is not for their benefit and which was, not attainable perfection, therefore, is that you will achievable goal." Kimball adds on page 210 of the aforementioned book. Only as we overcome shall we become perfect and move toward godhood as I've indicated previously, the time to do this is now in mortality." Here present. Kimball states you actually can attain perfection. According to your obedience, and that the time to reach for perfection by your own obedience is now. This is done by climbing the ladder of obedience and that obedience and submission to the law is how Abraham received his inheritance. According to the doctrine and covenants, a book of Scripture used by the. The LDS church but doesn't this go against what other Latter Day Saints of said personally with a sadism of being perfect, but it is about just doing our part or those who see our works actually don't give us eternal life, but we are saved by grace. To quote another LDS leader apostle and now Pres. Russell M. Nelson. He said the following quote. If I were to ask which of the Lord's commandments is most difficult to keep many of us might cite Matthew 548 be therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Keeping this commandment can be a concern because each of us is far from perfect, both spiritually and temporally. When comparing one's personal performance with the supreme standard of the Lord's expectation.

The reality of imperfection can at times be depressing.

My heart goes out to conscientious saints who, because of their shortcomings allow feelings of depression to rob them of happiness in life.

Moral perfection can be achieved as we try to perform every duty keep every law and strive to be as perfect in our sphere is our heavenly father is in his if we do the best we can. The Lord will bless us according to our deeds and the desires of our hearts." Here Nelson paints a slightly less grim picture than Kimball does of what it requires to attain perfection as a latter-day St., but I think he does so inconsistently. He recognizes that Jesus commands perfection in Matthew 548 and that we are capable of being perfect in quote. Our sphere as our heavenly father is in his" and that we need only quote do the best we can."

But you cannot be keeping the commandments including the command to maintain perfection and fulfill this court requirement by simply doing the best you can. That is not good enough. Perfection is perfection. Even if you are capable of doing, doing and keeping all the law which is not possible but sit in one area you are found guilty.

James wrote in his epistle in the New Testament. For whoever keeps the whole olive fails in one point has become guilty of all of it, this is James chapter 2 verse 10 it is not about doing what we can and having Jesus make up the rest as many Latter Day Saints will say if you say your eternal life hinges on perfection and keeping all the commandments as the LDS Scriptures and leaders of said you must keep all them perfectly. Just as a college student will mourn over that single A- grade which runs her perfect GPA only once and is required to break the law, even repentance cannot simply undo that mistake. This is why salvation cannot be based on our keeping the commandments.

Even if this were possible and the atonement undoes all of our previous sins.

This would mean our salvation is still depend on ourselves and none of our future sins would be covered would be completely dependent on our ability to keep the commandments for our salvation. We would have Apsley no assurance we could be doing well for our entire lives in all it takes is one sin for which we have not repented to keep us out of heaven. If our eternal life depends on us and how well we keep the commandments. How can we believe the Bible says that we are saved by grace. How can both of these propositions be true simultaneously when they are completely irreconcilable. The Bible says that if salvation has anything to do with us in our works.

It is not grace but is a payment even if the payment is much higher than what we did to earn it. That does not make a grace and speaking of a remnant of people in Israel saved by God. Paul describes in being chosen by God, not by what they did, but according to the grace of God alone quote in the same way then there has also come to be at the present time, a remnant according to God's gracious choice, but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works otherwise grace is no longer grace" that's Romans chapter 11 verses five and six Michael Jimmy questions for Matthew based on the section question. I thought it was really well-written, though all those points were extremely solid. I guess the came to my mind was present Nelson saying you know just do the best you can and I like how Madison Avenue perfection is perfection in the book of Mormon completely seems to go against that when it says God cannot look upon sin the least degree of allowance so if you go to judgment day you shall guide your report card and said A- according to the book of Mormon is the only danger past there's specific there's no allowance when you say Matthew yeah is in its second Nephi 2523 once quote a lot, you know, by grace are saved as Troy can do right so they might point to that and say well see this is just showing us that we just need to do our best and then God will make up the rest you guys, but her that all the time as latter-day St. do our best. God makes up the rest but I mean if you really wanted. Like you said it will if you really want to examine perfection. You can't make any mistake, past, present, future.

You know, if we imagine we don't Latter Day Saints and Christians both agree that Christ was absolutely perfect. He never sent.

But what if we are to say okay will when Jesus was a child he sent is just a minor's and but he repented of it. So it's okay that sin is forgiven.

So he was perfect.

Were talking about keeping the law or being saved by the law. There's no there's no mercy really there's no repentance there's no okay well you know you just me that one mistake soldiers wash it away and you know it'll be okay. Your record is not cleaned. You know all of your demerits are expunged when you're trying to be saved by law. There's no mercy, justice requires absolute perfection. That's why justice and mercy are kind of seen as two sides of a coin, you can't.

You can't expect absolute justice. But then the same time expect mercy there just kind of dichotomous views or understandings, you agree so well the things that I see Latter Day Saints pull out a lot, especially with the Matthew 548 is the same will perfection doesn't mean you know perfect obedience. It means being a resurrected being in being perfect in that manner. Is that something that you share a lot yeah is this? I think that's what what the question is a barium yeah exactly Matt Michael's right on point. The point to 35, 1248, which is the point in the book of Mormon where according to the narrative.

The resurrected Christ has appeared to the neophytes at the temple and in Bountiful, and he's given to them. Basically, the sermon on the Mount, Brandon and latter-day St. parliaments they call that the sermon at the temple, and she says 35 1248. Therefore, I would that you should be perfect, even as I or your father who is in heaven is perfect so that addition of even as I is where they point you to say yeah that this this shows us that perfection is moral perfection per se, but is rather the perfection of of a resurrected glorified body and and becoming complete. In that sense we think about that you encounter that argument from Latter Day Saints. Matthew yeah I hear that all the time, our mutual friend which I'll leave nameless in one of his many Scriptures that he threw at me to try to get me to answer it. Yeah, I try to explain this disconnection only works because the connection is required. It's it's forced so if you accept the book of Mormon is authoritative, then okay I can see the connection. But I don't consider it authoritative and so that's so when you're interpreting the Bible.

A lot of times you have a passage where you can interpret it. One of multiple potential ways where there are multiple possible valid interpretations just based on the immediate context.

So then, and that takes a lot of work and saying okay well if there's multiple interpretations of this particular passage. Now we have to look at like the scope of Scripture and sale get what is the point. What is the purpose of Scripture is to point to Christ, and we also have to use. And I forget if it's the analogy of faith or the knowledge of Scripture. There hermeneutical techniques, I forget which one it is. But it's the idea that was also just told Scripture. Our you just try to make all Scripture you're not trying to for Scripture to contradict itself. If there are valid interpretations of Scripture to where they doesn't force the Bible to contradict itself.

You should choose the their interpretation that makes the most sense that it doesn't force a contradiction so I could see someone if they were just reading Matthew 548 on itself saying okay. I think the Greek word can mean complete so you can understand that to mean, okay, maybe he's not talking about sinless perfection here.

Maybe he's talking about some other quality of God where you could say that he is critical complete thoughts. I don't see from the Bible how you could get this idea that God the father has a human body, human nature, or that he was somehow a man that progress to godhood so the only way that this works is within the framework of LDS theology so you have to reinterpret this Bible passage in the context of their theology to to make this connection work, but I don't think that you can recontextualize the text. Based on the Bible alone and come to that same conclusion.

So it really did systemic sky like an all or nothing thing runs like well yeah okay FFR to presuppose that your doctrine is true.

I could see that connection, be invalid, but since I reject the framework that your church teaches there in your theology teaches based on the fact that it teaches many extra biblical concepts. I don't accept that connection is valid only a ton of things just don't demand right now to one thing is you on the book of Mormon even when Jesus says be perfect, even as I have, you know, the Greek or the reform injection for the book of Mormon. He could be saying and assuming that the book of Mormon Scripture. He can be saying that using perfect in a completely different context than what is being said and in Matthew but I think it's extremely troubling to consider that a finite God who wasn't perfect was supposedly able team doing an infinite tone think that that is possible. I think Jesus hadn't been complete and and perfect in order to to do that I would bring as well because if you ask latter-day St. because their theology is that humans and dogs are the same species right just at different levels of aggression. If you ask latter-day St.

What then qualifies Jesus word Jehovah on my recent teachings to serve as the Messiah. In that role because of matter as Michael just pointed out the book of Mormon teaches that it must have been an infinite atonement and only an infinite God can carry out an infinite atonement.

So if you ask latter-day St. okay if Jesus is Jehovah pre-mortal Jehovah is the same species as us and the same type of being is as humans are at that point, her spirit deeding the spirit child of of heavenly father been there seems to be no real ontological difference between you and me and Michael and and Jehovah as conceived upon as conceived of in an LDS thought CFS question what qualifies Jehovah than to serve in the role of Messiah to carry out that infinite atonement and and there they will say was that this is moral perfection in the in the prettier pre-mortal life. She was morally perfect and therefore he's able to carry out the atonement in a way that we are not and then some. Someone even though there are some will just say this just because he was chosen. He was the chosen one by the father, but it runs up against those those rocks that Michael pointed out that it has to be an influential infinite atonement for himself, if complete.

In Matthew 548 and 35, 1248 means completed godhood complete perfection in the sense of now he has progressed to to godhood at the point of being resurrected and glorified than that at the point of atonement. She was not in. That's problematic. I think going back to my McConkie days.

I'm pretty sure that McConkie said that Jesus qualified to be Messiah, primarily because he was the literal firstborn son of God the father in the spirit and by virtue of his being the the literal firstborn. The first created or firstborn. While we want to say it spirit child. He had rights and privileges that we do not so it's pretty much essentially the same thing as you said Paul where they set where they would say what he was chosen so as not just areas and repackaged I mean pretty much yeah but the thing is, that's different is areas would say that there was a time when Jesus was not or when the sun was not an latter-day Saints will say well we believe the son is eternally existed and they might, they might say, will he exist as us spirit intelligence. He knows like I get around that problem will try to have their cake and you do by saying he exist eternally existed, but the same time he was born but but yet is it is pretty similar to areas in some ways to where he did not eternally exist as he was right before coming to earth, so there was progression in the pre-mortal life, to some extent but yet a sutures and it was interesting to you and I don't know if it's so something that can be used at all instances in the Bible where somebody is called perfect or ill. Christ is like your faith has made you whole.

Which your whole essentially means the same thing as complete and even in the book of Mormon that happens with Venus.

You know God says your your faith is made whole and there mortal at the point when this happens, so it just seems like that kinda contradicts that whole idea complete has to be something that happens after the Slifer perfect. I just ended and another son came and went into Luke. The sermon on the Mount in Luke taxed differently and if you look at the context it makes sense there to Jesus as you need to be kind and those who hate you, and he says be either for you and King James is still used in the therefore merciful, even as your Father which is in heaven is merciful and strictly context really well but I never hear Latter Day Saints quote be the Luke's version. It's always Matthew version that they want to talk about interesting even in the Matthew version the contexts fits with the Lincoln context as well. If you look at if you look back to the beginning of the prayer to be. You can see that that was being discussed areas is how you relate to your enemies, and then a kiss to 548 and so did, it does appear from context of both the math with the end and the Lincoln context that it's it's about love by being perfect in your love for others. Absolutely. I Matthew wanted to take us through the last section of part one of your article. Many times when showing a latter-day St. a quote from the president of their church they sustain as profits year in regulator and speak strictly with God with which they disagree and often say that he was speaking as a man, he made a mistake or employ some other explanation to avoid the fact that he disagrees with what they say or what they believe Pres. Kimball quoted their own Scriptures in the doctrine and covenants as justification for what he said is the doctrine and covenants wrong on this case.

Also elsewhere in the doctrine and covenants.

It teaches that every blessing it received is through obedience. Quote there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven for the foundation of this world upon which all blessings are predicated and when we obtain any blessing from God. It is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." That's doctrine covenants chapter 130 versus 20 and 21.

Here we see the elder Scripture teaches that any blessing from heaven, which would certainly include the blessing of eternal life is obtained by obedience, by that law.

This is a further reiterated in the LDS gospel topics manual under the entry of eternal life. We can meet which can be accessed at the LDS church's website, where it says this eternal life is the phrase used in Scripture to define the quality of life that are eternal father lives.

The Lord declared, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man from Moses 139 immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Everyone will receive this gift eternal life or exaltation is to live in God's presence and to continue as families. See doctrine and covenants 131 verses one through four I give mortality think gift is made possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel when we are baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. We enter the path that leads to eternal life. After we are baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Much of our progress toward eternal life depends on our receiving other ordinances of salvation for men ordination to the milk is the priesthood for men and women. The temple endowment and marriage ceiling. When you receive these ordinances and keep the covenants that accompany them. We prepare ourselves to inherit eternal life."

What is clear here is that God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ and his finished work on the cross alone as taught and believed by orthodox biblical Christianity is insufficient to bring man to a right relationship with God. You must receive ordinances keep the associated comments by obedience and keep other comp commandments given by God through obedience to receive eternal life. According to LDS doctrine in the book of Mormon. Another book of Scripture for the Latter Day Saints and the namesake of the common moniker Mormon. It reiterates that faith alone is insufficient to reach eternal life.

It says quote the gate by which she should enter his repentance and baptism by water and then cometh the remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost, and then are ye in the straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life. Yea you have entered in by the gate, you have done according to the commandments of the father and the son, and you have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the father and the son onto the fulfilling of the promise which you have made that if he entered in by the way, you should receive after you have gone into the straight and narrow path. I would ask if all is done. Behold, I stand you name for you have not come this far.

Save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, you must press forward with of steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope and a love of God and of all men.

Wherefore, if you shall press forward feasting upon the work of Christ and endure to the end. Behold, the said the father shall have eternal life." That's a quotation from second Nephi 31 verses 17 through 20. The book of Mormon reiterates that God's grace alone is insufficient.

You need at a minimum, faith, repentance, baptism by water and the gift of the Holy Ghost even enter the straight path to eternal life.

But it doesn't end there, either. You aren't saved, yet in the sense that biblical Christians understand the word saved being sealed up under it to eternal life and having an assurance of salvation from sin's death and hell by the blood of Jesus.

If you also don't obey God and endure to the end which includes receiving the ordinances of priesthood for men temple endowment and celestial marriage temple sealing for husband-and-wife. You will not receive eternal life and exaltation with God, but you will receive a lesser glory.

Thus, you must continue in faithfulness and add to your salvation by your own works, even if God is helping you out. It still depends on you. Thus you can't really ever have an assurance of salvation is Latter Day Saints because depends on you and your works. If a latter-day St. or just say they do have an absolute assurance of salvation. I would ask them, and if you commit a sin tomorrow and are excommunicated from the LDS church did you lose your salvation or was your assurance of salvation unfounded to begin with a snap. Matthew why do you think Latter Day Saints tend to shy away from previous leaders have said about perfection thing is just because the stress is just too much is just too much of a burden. I think many people of been really been damaged by things such as such Billy Kimball's medical forgiveness. I mean, there's not one person who I talked to who has said that book, even if they say they love that book.

No say they love that book but� So they'll probably say well was too harsh or it was too hard to understand, or is too hard to believe or know I just felt so terrible or I felt like I was just sitting I would never make it to exaltation. You know they just feel completely unworthy or incapable of achieving what he has called them to do and I think in a sense Christians when we read the Bible when we read the Old Testament we see all these laws, especially the Levitical laws and I think we have come a similar sentiment we say man, how did they keep all those laws you know like if you had. I think one of the laws like you get a mold in your house yet leave for seven days or something like that and and the fall. The ceremonial laws and and you can do this if you infringe upon someone else property to pay them back.

There were just so many laws had to keep and when Christians read that we don't think wow you know I really gotta get to work. I gotta keep all these laws. All these 613 commandments, you know that sound you make it. We think think think and praise God that we have Christ and that is not up to me and my obedience to be saved by think a lot of the Latter Day Saints would read the medical forgiveness and say okay like I get to working on. These are all the things I gotta do anionic. This checklist places, how I did as a latter-day St. yeah get going is of the Menander there about their books. I was in my first area. My mission when I read that book so I was in Budapest and just starting out as a as a missionary and I read the book and I remember getting to a particular section of that one.

Wednesday evening we were at the at the branch house for, mutual activities with the members there and I was sitting off to the side reading and I got to this. One section of the book and interests. I was just overcome by guilt and frustration and feeling of hopelessness because the book just took me to a place where it may be realized how far away from the, the level of perfection that Spencer Kimball was saying is necessary for eternal life. How far away I was from that and there was no hope given like you were talking about Matthew of thank God for Jesus Christ and what he has done. It was just know this is what you must do right.

I left the branch house that that night and we walked to the bus stop and took the bus back to her apartment and it was it was into the next weekend and week that I was still feeling completely helpless and it strikes me now that was weird things to happen to an LDS missionary writer. There supposedly preaching good news people supposedly preaching salvation and and hope to people and I was feeling completely hopeless to be up to the point where I had to that following Monday for Peter had to call up the mission president and go have a discussion with them about it because I couldn't get out of that space, the headspace of just guilt and feeling utterly worthless and I've heard that experience and similar experiences shared by many latter-day Saints who have read the book and it is unfortunate that that that book has that that heavy focus on perfection, and it doesn't give a message of hope is like the message it gives us just use gotta make sure your repenting of everything that you're doing wrong constantly and eventually you'll get to that level of perfection, but it doesn't leave you with that. It is leave you with any kind of feeling of hope. And that's unfortunate and you just just briefly here, but I've seen Latter Day Saints also throw their previous leaders under the bus. I think you kind of have to not just because it's depressing and stressful and impossible to be perfect, but also because the modern leaders now are emphasizing grace a lot more is being a different gospel than what was taught before sleep are forced to default alignment is interesting to think about. I think the same thing would happen if the profit came out today and said you know you start teaching the five solos Latter Day Saints would have to throw out all the previous profits and go with whatever he said so yeah it's kind of a dilemma when you got leaders that you say are a mouthpiece for God is whatever they say, even if it contradicts a leader. It's what you have to fall in line last year, just the teaching of grace is changed so much over the years because I kind of remember it when I was a kid being taught that grace wasn't talked about a lot when it was it was God is helping you to do what you're supposed to do.

It's it's in the it enables you to accomplish what you're supposed to accomplish. And they would quote firstly 537 says that God will man I should know this mastery, but you know that God does not give us commandments that we can keep essentially and so then Grace will say will see grace is why we can keep all the commandments because God makes it possible.

Grace is not a gift. It's like coming a little push on the back like a little in the little cheerleading on and on and on. Whatever you want to call you like a little encouragement to say you can do it you know, but eventually stopped to do it and and it's not to say that I want to say to that is not to say that Christians don't believe in repentance is on the we don't believe in faith or striving to keep God's commandments, but we do it with the knowledge that were already in Christ were already redeemed.

Believers were already justified declared righteous and were adopted children and so sanctification is the process wrote whereby we are conformed to the image of Christ through the work of the Spirit and so keeping the commandments is not a bad thing but we don't use that as our standard of whether we get into heaven or not. It's not our it's not our obedience in our own personal righteousness. That's determining whether we get to heaven and on.

I mean Scripture even talks about, you know when somebody does something else say so-and-so is righteous, Abraham is a righteous man, and I think you can even take that in both ways because we believe in imputed righteousness, or by the perfect righteousness of Christ is credited to our account through faith there is that form of perfect righteousness that we must have in order to reach heaven and there is some level of personal righteousness that we much, it must achieve out I would I would say in the sense that we must demonstrate throw works to man that we are believers know if we have no desire to follow God. We have no desire to do what's right, then it shows our hearts. It shows our hearts haven't changed and you can see, can collect on a personal righteousness, but that is not a perfect righteousness that said that's an outflowing of God's changing us and giving us new hearts and regeneration. So bite by either standard semi did the audio standard is kind of different skin like a it's like 1/3 option where it's like you have to eventually receive absolute perfect righteousness by your continued obedience and repentance do not mean it's not like were credited with perfect repent. Perfect righteousness now in imputed righteousness, and in that that is demonstrated in our life and in our abilities, our works is more like you have to eventually crawl up the ladder and get to this point where you and yourself are perfect and I don't think I don't think that's what the gospel is now and then and deftly not annexed.

No talk about that especially mission reading miracle of forgiveness and and when I did go in and speak with my mission president the message.

Even then, was not a you you you are saved because of what Jesus Christ did. The message was you doing okay although N�rnberg as long as you keep on this path and just keep doing the right things just keep trying. You're going to be okay in the end kind of message and I do not compare that to like John first John 513 right where were John is kind of summing up why he's written his epistle and he says I write these things to you who believe in the name of the son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life right he's telling them he's giving them a message that is hopeful but I am writing these things so you know you believe in the son of God and therefore you have eternal life is not something you working to achieve later on is not something that's going to come after you achieve perfection you have it now, and your thought was interesting. We talked to Paul her doll and he talked about how understanding that difference is what enables him to go after sanctification right because he's not. He doesn't feel hopeless. He knows of God, eternal life. Christ has paid my price and therefore I want to live for him and I thought that was a beautiful message that he should there and just give a an analogy to you last night we had dinner.

Some hamburgers went running the store like it and cleaned the cats got it made a mess with it is that great. You know it's like yelling in a relationship like that he did something wrong.

He I made want him to change his habits or apologize to me, but nothing that he did and you affected. That relationship is not. He has to change before he can be my son again or come back and live in the house like it's secure completely regardless of what she does and that's that's how it is with.T were in a secure relationship with him and that relationship doesn't get damaged by by our sin still there holding fast all the time and that is there is definitely a belief as a Christian to know that so Matthew how would you answer a latter-day St. who responded to your final question in this section by answering that if they were excommunicated in the LDS church because of sin, but they had lost their salvation and thinking about because not all Christians will agree on whether your salvation is eternally secured. I think all of us agree that when you're justified.

It's a once for all declaration that is not something you lose. There are many Christians are to do believe that you lose salvation based on certain interpretations of passages like Hebrews so but I think that that the whole biblical witness is clear that when you are in God's hand. We are in the father's hand in Christ, and that nothing can take you out of his hand that there's nothing that can take you out of salvation now, so my counter and say well that mean it doesn't say anything about you not jumping out of God's hand just as anything else doesn't keep you from leaving God's hand saws, side topic, but I really think that the witnesses captures that eternal life is something that's given it's not taken away as Paul briefly described with the John's epistle talk about how believers can know based on you know do they love God do they love men etc. on this. Do they continue to repent of these are signs of their true believers.

So if latter-day St. were to come to me and say that they had lost her salvation because there they were excommunicated. I would ask them why they believe that their salvation is tied directly to the church. Many of them will say today that will say well we know we believe in Jesus. Jesus is the one who saves.

But when you really think about it.

Jesus apart from their organization cannot save. They have to be saved within within the setting within the covenants. Everything that is done in the LDS church and their ordinances performed by their authority.

So I asked them why.

Why can't Jesus save you apart from your church and you know I think about it now. It does make sense to me. You know, just because we believe that were justified personally in all through faith in Christ and then we join ourselves to a church of fellow believers is not the church that gives us salvation but is latter-day St. It just made holy sense to me in a lot I thought well this is the way God planted. He said you have to make these comments with me. The covenants are only valid if you have done it by priesthood authority and this is the way it is. You know it's it's not that Christ is and accessible to everyone is just that that's the plan. He made for us. But when you really think about it, where in the Bible does it say no. Join the church and then you can come unto me. He never says that. You know, he says, come unto me all you are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. He's always inviting them to come to him. The Philippian jailer.

He asks what must I do to be saved and I was forget is a Peter Paul I think it's Peter that response to it right the Philippian jailer. He says, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved you and your household.

He doesn't say okay. Come join our church. You know, go through all ordinances go through the cortical the covenant past and then if you're faithful at the end you will know Jesus. You just as believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and will be saved. It's a simple set so I would invite them out. Invite them to re-examine the Bible and out of invite them to say to to really examine themselves and and understand the reality that they lose their salvation. They they never had to begin with what they thought that they had and that they really need to just trust in Christ and that's how the be saved is a beautiful place to wrap up our discussion of part one of the article.

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