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May 8, 2021 8:05 am
From Mormon to Jesus! Real, authentic conversations among former members of The Church Of Latter Day Saints.
This is Amy Thomas from the masculine journey podcast where we discover what it means to be a wholehearted man your chosen Truth Network podcast is starting in just seconds. Enjoy it, share it, but most of all, thank you for listening and for choosing The Truth Podcast Network. This is the Truth Network fireflies.
This week we are talking to Michael Flournoy article that you wrote this article is called the vicarious atonement proclamation to Latter Day Saints. So Michael tells about the thought process that led you to write this article okay so I noticed that a lot of times this is my point of view as a latter-day St. back in the day and also now on the other side of the year of the other. The other team played for both teams.
What I really seen is that even even Douglas and he's really pointed aggressive argumentation against Latter Day Saints and what happens right away as there's a wall and gets put up, and so either the Larry disengages right away you know right to office an anti-Mormon. They don't want to talk to you at all ever again or instigating a fight. A brutal die on this hill by over every principal and I was trying to think maybe there's a way to go about it a little bit differently and this article the vicarious atonement is really based on what God did to pull me out of Mormonism psychiatrist that same approach where I'm going to teach a principal, a true principal and they can do with it what they want to do so. It's all about imputed righteousness. So the goal was that I'm going to take the force of their own testimony and I'm going to use that against them. So Latter Day Saints will often say I believe the book of Mormon is true and I've had LDS missionaries come to my house and they'll say if if by you pray about the book of Mormon and you find that it's true what you be baptized and I've started to kind of turn that around on them and I say, did you know that the book of Mormon teaches imputed righteousness and usually the say that they don't know what that is all. I'll explain it to them. I'll explain why it's a problem for a believing Latter Day Saints and then I'll turn the challenge around on them and say if you find that the book of Mormon teaches imputed righteousness will you leave the church and so what happens is there testimony of the book of Mormon becomes a problem. If the book of Mormon is teaching against truck stock and so you put them in a Catch-22 and so that's what I'm trying to do this article as I use a lot of book of Mormon passages like use. On the way that he Mormon missionary dazzled Mormon missionary will first use Bible passages you guys remember this.
I'm sure and then once they do that they will use a book of Mormon passage right afterwards to kinda seal the deal is on using that same approach. Raleigh's book of Mormon passages to prove my point, and that I will follow it up with a Bible passage right afterwards and so is just a little bit of a different approach for Latter Day Saints and I've had a lot of good feedback from the LDS who read it. None of them got offended instead open doors for conversation and so it's been really interesting. Can I ask you a quick follow-up to know what if and showing them both Bible passages and Mormon passages.
You show them that that the difference between amputated righteousness and amputated is a great the Bible says in the book of Mormon says it to so I believe that you know but then there like wasn't the book Mormon says that the means it's true.
So what if they use that is kind of father to say well maybe that some of my church teachers was in Scripture teaches that all believe it and then they don't have any incentive to want to leave the LDS church so I would you address that concern you. Honestly, initially, I wouldn't be too upset about it because they've come to believe in imputed righteousness, which means that they have come closer to the true gospel.
What happened to me is that exact same and you just talked about is what happened to me initially when I learned about imputed righteousness that I learned about it in the Bible and the book of Mormon first and I said okay this is fantastic. It's just like they've always taught me in church.
These two books bear witness of each other's of course are going to share the same message.
What happens the second you embrace that doctrine. Every single time.
Your general conference and they teach a workspace gospel in your you can ignore it. It weighs really heavy on yourself. Over time, and I don't believe that it is actually sustainable in the long run for Latter Day Saints believe that Dr. Knight I think it's the most anti-Mormon doctrine that exists on the planet that in the Trinity, you know, it'd be like a Mormon, accepting the Trinity because it teaches it in the book of Mormon, and it's just far away against liquid church teaches and so the longer you keep going to the church and you hear your so-called Robinson apostles teaching against what you know to be true, then there can lose credibility over the long run. I like your approach with this article, especially because you you open with, and I wanted too much and will cover your introduction but you open with, kind of, and all the branch I would say to Latter Day Saints in terms of kind of helping them understand the Catch-22 you found yourself in but also kind of reaching out to them like you were saying to know that a lot of times dialogue between Christians. Latter Day Saints can be very very pointed end and justified in Maryland and dislike. When you introduce the article somewhat. The audience is Latter Day Saints for this article correct you what you hope for Latter Day Saints take away from this article.
I hope that they come away with a couple of thoughts.
While it X Mormons aren't out to get them that were not hateful, but especially that there is the vicarious atonement is true that they want to believe the gospel of amputation that righteousness is actually imputed to our accounts want them to accept this principle. So this article is not aimed it in the in the short term, like making them doubt the church or have a faith crisis or anything like that. It's just to teach them something and it is using more money as you know their own theological language to help them understand it using the temple when using the book of Mormon's of their own scripts for their own practices and and I think I did a pretty good job of that. One thing I want to do. This episode is kind of translate some of the things I say into English into evangelical language because it was written to Mormons and so some of it's not going to make sense on the surface, and so I'll read it all. Talk about what it means and what I'm saying exactly that part and no put evangelicals would use the you can still stand all you want.
This article is meant yeah and I was say to that. I've had some evangelicals kinda and Latter Day Saints, especially Latter Day Saints. Kind of come back and feel misled about obedience and I didn't really cover that in this article, I think of you probably write another one in the near future that covers that. But I wanted to really just talk about salvation and how that is obtained through faith alone. First, because I think you got understand that before being obedient is to make sense. There are two into reading the first section of your article you might work to be introduction Michael yes I started with. Second Corinthians 521, this is already in King James version. Just because that is what Latter Day Saints gives, for he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Have you ever talked with evangelicals and become the victim of aggressive preaching. Perhaps they went so far as to attack your faith and regurgitated 100 reasons why you are a Christian you may have been accused of worshiping Joseph Smith and participating in occult I've been in that situation 100 times as an LDS missionary, and later, while defending the faith online unfamiliar with the bad taste.
It leaves in your mouth and the not that forms in the stomach.
Knowing nothing of evangelical beliefs, except they don't seem to like Mormons very much in 2015, I began a serious study on the topic of grace.
I had no idea what I was getting myself into.
Within a year. My convictions shifted I found myself embracing the evangelical position. I came to realize there are two kinds of Gospels one gospel teaches that we must cut all the sin out of our lives to become worthy.
The other is about putting something on, namely the righteousness of Christ. This gospel says that we can be seen, despite our sins, I discovered the second gospel which I call the gospel of amputation all over the book of Mormon. The Bible also testified of its truthfulness. In this article I'll be explaining the evangelical position using LDS scripture in language as an added bonus all avoid the usual accusations and name-calling. The main difference in our secure ideology is evangelicals believe in only one temple. This temple only needed to be used wants and it transferred all the saving ordinances to everyone who believes in Christ that temple was the cross – so when I read your article Michael. I argued on and on.
The really important stuff. I really like your correct use of the indefinite article and before the acronym LBS is that kind of thing that really gets my editors juices flowing and I can put down my) and really like start just reading and understanding admin and taking and what the article says, and III hope that the introduction but you worked up here will help Latter Day Saints put their sword down and just reason and listen to what you're saying because you been there, you understand their frustrations in the typical LDS and Christian dialogue that goes on and so I hope the that this introduction allows them to put down their sword like it allowed me to put down my red pen Matthew's thoughts on introduction Aggie like your thought you did a great job really Try to break down those barriers between evangelicals and Latter Day Saints at at a thought to you while you're trying to build bridges to Latter Day Saints. I think you're not watering down what you're trying to say either because you didn't say oh it's just a slightly different view of the gospel you you plainly stated that it's a second gospel. So could you explain that a bit more of what he said was a second gospel, not just a different view of the gospel.
Yeah so I didn't name.
Both of the Gospels in the introduction outcome to get into that a little bit later but basically the two Gospels are the gospel of amputation you. I have to cut all the sin from my life in order to become worthy.
The other one is the gospel of amputation, I accept Christ's righteousness. I put it on. I do not have to amputate all of the standing to become worthy and so these are polar opposites. There is no way for both of these to be true, and really the gospel of amputation. It completely invalidates us in our saving ordinances. A priesthood and an organized church of priesthood holders of bishops and apostles and prophets. You don't need those things you just need to be able to acquire that righteousness from Christ so you're there making it clear to Latter Day Saints that you're trying to say the understand a position you can you're trying to speak to their position and from their position, but the same time you're trying to say. This is not the same gospel that Latter Day Saints believe and you want to explain why yes and I'll get into that a little bit more about. Mostly I'm just trying to say, hey guys my sword's not out you know it is achieved on my side.
Like that's that's talk and that is the reaction that I've gotten from all the Latter Day Saints who rented so far none of them got upset arguing with me, mostly just had discussions from it actually had more Christians are signed get upset even Latter Day Saints. So can understand that some of that is because I'm using more monies and even in this section there is a couple of things that I had people kind of question me about and one of those is that I said that we believe in only one temple, and so I've had people asking what will what about Solomon's Temple right what about that one is only one talking about functioning temples, something that's actually being used right now and I'm talking about temples in the LDS sense a place where a vicarious ordinance takes place.
So yeah, technically I guess it would be incorrect in Christian language, but in more monies. If it's correct that is the difference we believe in one temple and that is the cross. The cross does the same thing as what their temples do and I'll get into that in the next sections and alluded name two Gospels in the introduction. I do remember the first time I saw you online kind of put the idea out there juxtaposing these two Gospels, the gospel of amputation of the gospel of amputation and it's another thing that got my entered editor bring a buzz right because I was like man the alliteration that is amazing.
It's great and it really drives home the point. So really well done with your writing on this one. My: look forward to hearing the next two sections all right will go ahead and get into the next section here. This one is on the gospel of amputation. Growing up as 1/7 generation latter-day St. I believed I needed to keep the commandments perfectly if I send. I needed to repent and stop doing them.
In essence, I needed to amputate the sinful behavior from my life. After all Jesus commanded us to be perfect in Matthew 548. I knew no unclean thing can enter God's kingdom per 3527 19. In fact, the book of Mormon stated that God cannot save us and our sins, 1137, nor could he look upon sin was allowance, 45, 16, that meant if I went to Judgment Day with sin. I would be cast out. Even my sins of omission had to stop second Nephi 25, 23, said we were saved by grace. After all we can do run a 1030 Tuesday.
Grace was sufficient.
After we deny ourselves of all ungodliness. James 210 says, for whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all the book of Mormon made it clear that God wouldn't be impressed if my spiritual report card was a B+ James to set a James 210 said that a score B+ was impossible. If I had one red mark. My score would become an F. Unfortunately for me, God was a holy being, and I was anything but that. In Matthew 518 Jesus said that, until heaven and earth passed not one jot or tittle of the law would pass. In other words, it was unacceptable to break even one iota of God's law that wouldn't have been a problem if God's laws were easy, but they weren't in Matthew five Jesus said if we look upon a woman to lust after her. We committed adultery in our hearts. Matthew 528 and if we called our brothers. Fools would be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 522 in his sermon in Elma five 2819 Alma says behold our descriptive pride. I Sandy you if ye are not your not prepared to make God. Behold, you must prepare quickly for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand in such a one has not eternal life, behold I say is there one among you who is not stripped of envy. I Sandy you that section 1 is not prepared and I would that he should prepare quickly for the hour is close at hand. And he know is not when the time shall come for section 1 is not found guiltless despite the strictness of God's commands I gain comfort in the idea of enabling grace as defined in the Bible dictionary. It was a power God gave his disciples so they could accomplish impossible feats. However, as time dragged on, I found myself falling short again and again I would repent of my sins, only to find myself trapped in them again or trespassing against God in new ways. This led me into greater despair and guilt than I originally felt doctrine and covenants 82, seven says, and now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge, go your ways, and sin no more. But unto that soul who sin if shall the former sins returns, saith the Lord your God, no matter how hard I tried, or how desperately I pray for God's enabling grace. I couldn't approach God's standard. It felt like the odds were stacked against me like I begin I've been given an impossible gospel to carry out. Of course, I believed I get a second chance of repenting in the next life, but that didn't carry much hope.
I'd always been taught it was harder to repent and spirit prison if I couldn't reach perfection here. How can I do with their it was no wonder Romans 310 said there were none righteous, and first John 18 said if we said, we deceive ourselves if we claim we had no sin that left me in a pitiable position since according to the Bible.
The wages of sin was death.
Romans 623 if you find yourself in a similar position, take heart.
The message of the vicarious atonement is for you narrow really good. I know this section, you do really good job, describing the utter hopelessness. One can feel as latter-day St. trying to do all things whatsoever. Lord God shall command right. That's the test that latter-day Saints or are put to entered the really does become something that ultimately ends in spare and there were not when I was reading through your article again in preparation for tonight, especially with your quote from Elma five I was reminded of the journal article original post that I wrote back when I first started to question back my first kind of encountered some some questions about latter-day St. faith that were challenging me online and I did this whole analogy about a tree that that sprung up from the pride in my heart and I was really tearing myself up in my journal about a pride regular at that time. It felt like what you if you're doubting there's something wrong with your sitting in some way. And so for me it was the pride you know that's that's what I was making an analogy to see how really really good John in the section of describing what that's like as latter-day St. just tried just trying to live up to that perfect standard and realizing that you never can sing.
However, this contest like to walk with Jesus.
And when this is really a measurement that is we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Based on teaching the name of our podcast brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own.
Thus, our brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son give conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around after reading this section I have a question for you Michael so and question the latter-day St. I think might go to your right because in the book of Mormon. There are also scriptures like first night pursued by 37 right with the Lord Lord will not command anything were that you will not provide a wafer for you to do that which he commands right that did those passages give you hope why or why not. When I was latter-day St. yes it would give me temporary help.
Yes because I believe you know what God is an open way. The whole idea of enabling righteousness to me is very similar to is going to to Abbas and complaining about things at work are your pay or something, and the like will you know just hold on for six more months and then things are in it be better to this character just being dangled in front of the and for a while it works but then eventually when you're practicing this and you're hoping that enabling righteousness and it's not coming in that way is not being opened up to be completely obedient to the commandments. It actually gives you more hopelessness than hope so.
Yet it's more hope for a little while, but then you gonna crash eventually is reviewing the video that we did for the book of Mormon central video because I uploaded it this week and yet there's a point where I forget which which one it was with seminary teacher was but he kind of says exactly said Michael Nye says there's can be times where it's hard waving a feel hopeless and he didn't really provide much comfort you know he's he basically said well I mean that's how does he know, like where it may seem like were going around in circles, but that's out supposed to be, but your year Circle should be going upward and Mike while at that through comforting enough so I think it's exactly please and I think that I agree with Paul that he really kind of just breathe in that those brief could paragraphs you really just divulge what it's like to be latter-day St. field, the yoke of bondage in all of the phrases in the book of Mormon a lot as I felt like the commandment swear was a yoke and I think one of the big things. It a lot of Elliott's apologists would probably throw back at me right now is lately and seeing them a lot online sing like oh yeah it's just faith is all we need. Jesus is all we need you know you have UX Mormons are always yellow acting like we have this giant list of things that we need to do in order to be worthy and so they will sleep all that under the bra when they're talking to outsiders, but it is true, and it that you I said, the book of Mormon teaches imputation, but it actually teaches both packages.
Both gospel think of the book of Mormon is consistent by any means, but you look at those passages that I cite now and it's very clearly teaching the gospel of amputation is argue stripped of pride. If you are not you are not worthy you are not ready to enter heaven.
You do not have eternal life is the same thing as saying have you amputated pride.
It is, is the exact same thing you have to amputate all your pride and all your envy and that's not me and ask Mormon talking. That is of the book of Alma in the book of Mormon saying that staying on my topic of the gospel of amputation. How how would you respond to a latter-day St. who said to Jesus himself preached the gospel of amputation and say Matthew 529 to 30, and I would say that so that our listeners will know what I'm talking about just second verse. Matthew 529 to 30.
You quoted 528 in your article 29 says if your right eye causes you to send pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than your for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you, for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast in the health really really glad you asked that question, I've actually had latter-day Saints tell me that the Bible teaches the gospel of amputation and when they do that the first reaction I have is I'm actually glad that they acknowledge that there are these two different Gospels, and that they believe in the gospel of amputation and other trendy defendants.
I considered a very honest approach. So, I like it when latter-day Saints do this so my response is that they're correct in in the summer of the amount Jesus is teaching the gospel of amputation. But there's a reason that he's doing it on a good into this a little bit in my article, but it's because when it comes to preaching the gospel of amputation is really useful in any equation.
Am I getting this in my article. There is a problem and there is a solution. You cannot get to the solution without the problem and so when it comes our salvation gospel of amputation is the problem that leads us to the answer of imputed righteousness, and so sheer he is talking about how strict God's law is and he does it over and over again if you even look at a woman to lust after her, you committed adultery.
If you call your brother a fool you are in danger of hell fire. If someone slaps you to turn the other cheek. You gotta love your enemies goes on and on and on like this is no joke. God standards he says you know not one jot or one tittle. If you break one of the least of these commandments you will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. And so God standard is perfection and he is he is showing us that in the same thing happens when the rich young ruler goes to Christ and says I've kept all the commandments my whole life. And then Jesus says, go and sell all that you have and follow me, and you will have treasure in heaven and he can't do it.
So basically Jesus uses the gospel of amputation on the rich young ruler single here is the standard you know and that's the thing I think a lot latter-day Saints think that they're capable of keeping the commandments. And if you think that then I would say that you probably don't have a good grasp of God's law clerk is standard because if you did that he would be like the young which ruler who is sorrowing and realizing this is not an attainable goal right in in in that case.
In Matthew 19.
You know what it is and I spoke to earlier reviews a passage he said well Jesus had to go Sawyer property.
You know that's what that's what you need to do and I said okay well why haven't you done it you know if Jesus is saying this is how you have eternal life is by selling all your property and falling and why haven't you done it you know Jesus wasn't trying to say all this is actually how you're going to be saved is basically showing him the sinfulness of his heart. He didn't want to give that up. Jesus knew he didn't want to give that up because I was his God knows his idle was his possessions and sewed the because the apostles like this guy.
He's been keeping all the commandments I know is any hope for us. Jesus is what is impossible with man as possible with God. So yeah, I think I think your absolute right. The Jesus was kind of he was showing them the weight and the exact you know the exact requirements of the line every single point that if you're going to say I want to be justified by law of be careful because you gotta keep all of it. Every single part of you and whispering about the story with the young which ruler is and he talks about what the commandments are you.
You must love you love God with all your heart, your soul, and is II do that psycho really okay within sell all that you have and follow me.
So basically get rid of that and confuse me instead and it becomes very clear that he did not love God with all of his heart because it would've been easy to do that if he did so absolutely good so let's go on to the next section of the article.
Okay, this section is called the law are schoolmaster evangelicals used to tell me. God gave the Israelites the law of Moses to show them they couldn't keep it. That statement is antithetical to everything latter-day Saints believe. Why would a loving heavenly father give us commandments we can't keep to answer that question, let me point to a simple equation. One plus one equals two.
This equation has two parts the problem and the solution you can't find the answer without the problem and when it comes to salvation. The problem is the law.
The more we try to amputate sin from our lives, the more aware of the come of our enslavement. The New Testament teaches that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Galatians 324 is a latter-day St. I thought that meant I became righteous by obeying God's laws. However, the opposite is true.
The law doesn't make us righteous. It exists to condemn us. Galatians 321 through 24 says, is the law then against the promises of God. God for bid for if there'd been a lot given which could have given life verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the Scripture has concluded all understand that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up under the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This is a shocking revelation. Paul says that righteousness doesn't come by keeping the law and fact.
No law can be enacted that generates it in verse 22. He says it's because we are sinners that we can receive faith in other words, we have to be beaten down and pinned against the wall before we realize we can't do it ourselves.
Faith is realizing we have nothing to offer. We acknowledge we have received the do wages of our sin and only Jesus can bring us to life in Colossians 213, Paul says we were dead in our stands as a Latter Day Saints you are specially equipped to understand the implications of this because it coincides with your doctrine about temples, a vicarious ordinance can only be performed for a dead person.
Once the ordinances done the dead person merely has to accept what is been done on their behalf. This is called amputation. In other words, your active righteousness, i.e. getting baptized in doubt or sealed is accredited to the data if they did it themselves. But wait there's more in LDS theology. There is never talk of the dead having to repent.
If they break the covenants associated with ordinances. In fact, 4213 says repentance can only occur in mortality, it logically follows that the dead don't accept a covenant that can condemn them, but a covenant that acts as though it's been Perfectly this is essentially what Jesus did for us. He lived a perfect life of obedience to the father and on the cross he traded his righteousness for our standing. This is why Romans 510 associate salvation not only with Christ's death, but with his life since he was obedient.
We are endowed with a perfect righteousness. It is, it is as if we obeyed every commandment God ever gave a really good surgeon.
When did you first make the connection between the vicarious work for the dead Latter Day Saints during their temples and imputed righteousness.
It was during my faith struggle and then it was I studying the impossible gospel argument that I was just trying to find an answer to an outside God, give me something else is praying to God and like help me figure out how to beat fast. You know how I beat the problem of of amputation and in the solution was revealed to me, which was imputed righteousness, and of course I found it in the book of Mormon in the Bible first and once I found it in those two places I noticed that it was the central theme of the temple way.
That's the that's the whole thing that you do in the temples. When you work for the dad because they can't do it themselves and so they need somebody to do it on their behalf. As I is just a huge epiphany. I thought this is incredible. And of course it most of my testimony at first, but I was saying earlier could happen was a latter-day St. like okay that's the Bible that's the book of Mormon, and it's the temple, all teaching this principle now.
So it really locked me in. And it wasn't until I can came to some more realizations and I'll get to them later in the article where I discovered that if if Christ's righteousness is imputed to us at believe that I do not need the LDS church or the temple ordinances or anything else for that matter, so it's definitely a double edge sword down the I had a similar Remington similar but related realization when I was still latter-day St. I had gone to our state president to have the second part of the temple recommend interview when you're Latter Day Saints you have a total wreck temple recommend interview first with the bishop of the rewarded them with your state president and then once you've got both of their approvals than you can do temple recommend and I was going for a renewal of my temple recommend and met with the stake president and we were talking about some questions that I had come up through online discussions and you know he was sharing with me some things and thoughts he had about the temple and what we do there and she was really animated about the realization that he did.
She said it had about how when we do vicarious work in the temples would Latter Day Saints directors work in the temples, they become saviors on Mount Zion to the people for whom they are doing the ordinances and at first I was really jazzed about that idea.
I remember talking to Angela about it on our drive home from the stake center. We were crossing the bridge from Kentucky to Cincinnati to get around to where we lived in another part of Kentucky we recrossed through downtown, but will be really jazzed. Not indignant how cool is that we become saviors on Mount Zion right and then and a few days later, the thought Henry.
I'm not worthy to be any kind of savior to anyone and that thought really that big because I realized while, what, how, how can I ever replace what Jesus did you know and so you related related thought that I had. That's a really good thought, and I forgot about the phrasing saviors on Mount Zion, but it's a really common thing that Latter Day Saints say about those who do ordinances for the dad and the problem with that is that you have no right to compare yourself to the Savior because what you're doing is comply completely different class of what he does because in Mormonism all he really did was pave the path and then he gives you the enabling power to walk that path yourself.
But in the temple you are doing the vicarious ordinance for the person. All they have to do is say yes and they make it all the way to the under other half and so is not the same thing. In fact, it's Blasphemous because you're saying that you are actually more effective at saving the dad at saving these people in Christ is your more efficient than him. Yeah is not the kind of interesting. Like the people that Jesus can save.
It's up to us to save them in a sense, it's pretty wild Solid Team Effort, but I Thought about This to Because My Mission You Know We Were Very Limited in What We Could Watch or Listen to Some Non-PDAs. A Lot Of Times We Watch the Seminary Videos That Can Allows Re-Watching Them on YouTube Because, Nostalgic, and One of Them I Think Was about the Temple and Ends with a Quote from Is in Hinckley Where He Says Basically and Is, in Essence, He Doesn't He Knows of No Other Work That Approaches That of the Work of the Savior Than Temple Worship and I Really like My Mission Arrow Him It's like Wow You Know and Be Really Awesome to Be a Temple Worker. Because, Yeah, We Could to Help People You Know I Didn't See It Is Becoming a Savior outside Is like Helping People That Couldn't Help Themselves. You Know, Kind of like Being Christlike. You Know, Imitating Christlike Hazards Was to Help the Needy and the Poor You Know and and and Extend the Hand of You Know That As If Christ Were Himself or Helping Them yet. In Retrospect, It Does Seem like Wow You Know Especially Understand the Book of Hebrews and Understand That the Priesthood of Melchizedek That We Talked about in a Previous Episode That's That's for Christ Only. He's the Only One That Can Hold That Priesthood and so to Take That Priesthood on Ourselves and Claim That We Can Do the Work That Jesus Did Is Pretty It's Pretty Blasphemous When You Think about It yet Is It's It's Taking It to a Whole Other Level, Not Just Saying That Righteousness Comes by Some Law or Some System That Is Also Saying We Can Actually Sort of Pass out That Righteousness on Our Own Is a Whole New Level of Insanity Suspected That the Movie Maybe This Is an Area of This Is Comparison of Imputation of Righteousness. Righteousness to the Letters and Temple Ordinances Is the Scenario That Some Christians Criticize You for on This Article Actually Know Is Finally This Is Not a Place Where They've Criticize Me Expecting It's a Really Good Comparison Because All Often Bring up Imputed Righteousness to Latter Day Saints. Say Have You Ever Heard of Imputed Righteousness, and Though Usually Say No and Is Able Believe It or Not You Actually Believe in It. This Is What Happens in Your Temples. So When You Saw Dougal Right into the Temple and I'll Say When You Do These Ordinances for the Dad and Then They Accept It and Its Credited to Them As If They Had Done It. That's Imputation and the like Oh Wow That's Really Cool. I Just Didn't Know What That Word Was Now Going to the Vicarious Atonement I Made. It Is a Direct Comparison. As Far As Is What We Believe. So It's Just a Really Easy, I Guess Conversation Starter, and Ended Flows Really Well and to the Rest of the Conversations I Use It All the Time and Actually Come to Think of It the for the Christians That Helped Me in My Conversion Was Chief Walker and When I Met with Him for the First Time He Had a Shirt on Said Jesus Was My Proxy so That My Mechanic Got the Wheels Turning in My Head like Oh That's Pretty Cool You Are Using in an LDS Word and It Totally Fits Because He Is Our Proxy Shall I Go on to the Next Section Is Due All Right with What Is Called Nephi's Courage. After Leaving Jerusalem, Lehigh and His Family Come to a Valley with a River Running into the Ocean. He Says to His Son Lenny Will Hold It down Might Just Be like into This River Continually Running into the Fountain of All Righteousness. That's Firstly 529.
The Fountain of All Righteousness Is God He Is the Source, the Imagery of a River Flowing Endlessly into the Sea Is Symbolic of What Christ Does for Us Even Though We Continue to Sin, His Righteousness Flows into Us, Drowning out Our Wickedness When Jesus Spoke to the Woman at the Well, He Said, Whosoever Drink This Water Shall Thirst Again but Whosoever Drink the Water That I Shall Give Him Shall Never Thirst.
But the Water That I Shall Give Him Shall Be in Him a Well of Water Springing up into Everlasting Life. John 413 through 14. If Were Trying to Drink from the Well of Human Righteousness That Well Will One Will Run Dry.
However, Christ's Righteousness Is Infinite and Never Ceases to Quench Our Parched Souls in Philippians 389 Paul Says Yea Doubtless, and I Count All Things but Loss for the Excellency of the Knowledge of Christ Jesus My Lord, for Whom I Have Suffered the Loss of All Things and Do Count Them but Dung, That I May Win Christ and Be Found in Him, Not Having Mine Own Righteousness Which Is of the Law, but That Which Is through the Faith of Christ, the Righteousness Which Is of God by Faith. Here He Claims That the Righteousness He Has Is Not His Own, but That It Comes from Christ.
Furthermore, She Obtained Righteousness through Faith. This Idea Is Echoed in Penis. After Praying to God. The Lord Tells Enis His Sins Are Forgiven, Bewildered. Enis Asked How It Is Done. The Lord Answers and Enis 18 Any Set under Me Because of My Faith in Christ, Whom Thou Has Never before Heard nor Seen in Many Years Pass Away before He Shall Manifest Himself in the Flash Wherefore Go to Thy Faith Has Made the Whole Enis Wasn't Justified Because of Ordinances or Obedience to Commandments If He Were He Wouldn't Have Been Surprised When He Was Forgiven When We Work to Become Righteous. Forgiveness Becomes a Wage Instead of a Gift. In This Instance, It Was Faith Alone That Made Enis Whole. All He Had to Do to Receive the Vicarious Atonement Was Believe in Christ.
This Idea of Imputed Righteousness Is Heavily Emphasized in Second Nephi Chapter 2 Verse Three Says We Are Redeemed Because of the Righteousness of Our Redeemer.
Verse Four Says Salvation Is Free and Verse Eight Says There Is No Flashlight Can Dwell in the Presence of God Save It Be through the Merits and Mercy and Grace of the Holy Messiah. Perhaps the Greatest Metaphor Ever Written about Imputation Comes from First Nephi Chapters 3 and Four. It Tells the Story of Nephi and His Brothers Going to Jerusalem to Get a Set of Brass Plates from a Powerful Man Named Laban. Their Initial Attempts to Meet with Failure Because Laban Is Unwilling to Part with His Treasure.
Nephi's Family Comes Back with Their Riches, Intent on Purchasing the Plates Laban Takes Their Money but Drives Them Out Of His Presence. Just When Things Look Hopeless.
An Angel Appears Saying Laban Will Be Delivered into Their Hands. Nephi Creaks into the City and Finds Laban Passed out Drunk in the Street at the Urging of the Spirit. Nephi Takes Laban's Sword and Decapitates Him.
He Then Puts on Laban's Clothing and Equipment, and Makes His Way to the Treasury Once He's inside. He Is Mistaken for Laban and Given the Breastplates in This Metaphorical Story. The Breastplates Represent Salvation and Labor. Laban Represents Christ When They Offer Their Riches to Purchase the Plates. They Are Driven off Such Will Be the Case If We Try to Offer God Our Obedience As a Currency to Enter Heaven. But Then the Story Takes a Turn Nephi Slays Laban and Puts on His Clothes.
This Symbolizes Putting on Christ's Righteousness. Suddenly, We Are No Longer Judged As Imposters Trying to Break into Heaven but As If We Were Christ Himself. The Book of Mormon Calls This Putting on the Robes of Righteousness. You Can See Second Nephi 914 for That Laban Even Has To Die in Order for This to Take Place.
The Parallels Are Really Astounding and One of the More Heartfelt Monologues in the Book of Mormon. Nephi Confesses That He Is Easily Beset by Sand and Tells Us What It Is That Gives Him Courage in the Face of His Human Frailty Second Nephi 417 through 19 Says Nevertheless, Notwithstanding the Great Goodness of the Lord and Showing Me His Great and Marvelous Works.
My Heart Exclaim with All Wretched Man That I Am Gay. My Heart Start with Because of My Flash My Soul Grievance Because of Mine Iniquities. I Am Encompassed about Because of the Temptations in the Stands Which Do so Easily Beset Me and What I Desire to Rejoice. My Heart Coronas Because of My Sins. Nevertheless, I Know in Whom I Have Trusted.
There Is No Comfort in the Gospel of Amputation. It Leaves Us Sorrowing over Our Wretched State. However, We Trust in Christ, He Become He Overcomes Our Stands and Becomes Our Bedrock of Courage Section Gather, so There's A Lot Here to Tackle so It's Kind of Been a Start from the Beginning so I Think That A Lot Letter Sins Would Pretty Much Agree with A Lot Of What You're Saying. At the Very Beginning of This Section. One Thing I Could Think of Myself in the Mindset of Latter Day Saints Is so There's a Partly Safe or Trying to Drink from the Well of Human Righteousness That Well Will Run Dry. However, Christ's Righteousness Is Infinite and Never Ceases to Quench Our Parched Souls.
One Book I Think A Lot Latter Day Saints Really like Is the Infinite Atonement.
I Forget Who Writes at the Imam of the Author As It Is One of the Adenoids Said Robert Miller the Right Looking up.
I Can Remember It's Been Too Long. I Started to Behold My Memory but They Would Say Yeah We Agree Amen to That. You Know What Were Relying on Christ's Righteousness and It's an Infinite Righteousness.
And Then When You Read Levine's 3839.
You Said Here Quote Here He Claims the Righteousness He Has Is Not His Own, but That Comes from Christ. Furthermore, He Obtained Righteousness through Faith in a Latter-Day St. Would Say Here. Amen. However, Paul Doesn't Say That He Obtained Righteousness through Faith Alone Does, He Obtained Righteousness through Faith. So How Would You Respond to Latter-Day St. Might Ask about That. So I Purposely Did Not Get to That Point yet and That's Part of My You Know, I Guess Mormon Background You Trying to Bring It out, Line upon Line and Precept upon Precept, so to Me It's Very Important That a Latter-Day St. Just Seems That the Only Point I'm Really Trying to Get across Here Is That Christ's Righteousness Is Given to Us and Then Here a Little Bit When I Go into How That Happens at Faith Both the One Thing That I Do Tell Latter Day Saints A Lot They'll Ask Them You Christ Is an Infinite Being. And so He's Infinitely Righteous Correct and so Can Infinity Be Divided.
My Math Brain Is Turning on Center. Your You Can You Can Have Different Sets of Infinity, but I'll Get into That, but so so Say He Gives Us, 1% of His Righteousness and He Is Infinite.
How Much Righteousness Do We Have One per Cent of Infinite Would Still Be Infinite.
I Guess, Is That Returns I Believe so Yeah so I Believe That at the Moment When We Receive His Righteousness. We Have All the Righteousness That We Need to Enter Heaven and Be in the Father's Presence so I've Amended That to Latter Day Saints before and It's It's Made Them Stop Talking and Think for A While so It's It's Been a Really Good Point.
Every Time That I Never Brought up to a Latter-Day St.
So It Is Very Effective to Use That Line of Reasoning with Them. Yeah, I Think It's Great Thing It Does If I Get Them Thinking outside the Box Still Using Language That They're Familiar with.
I Will One Book That I Really like to Latter Day Saints to Was Believing Christ by Stephen Robinson.
I Think, and I Think He Get He Got. He Cannot Dipped into His Toes into Amputation, but Then Pulled It out Again and He Kind of Uses Various Analogies or Parables like the Parable of the Bicycle Where a Child Goes to Buy the Bicycle He Can Afford It Only Has $0.45. He Realized the Bikes Hundred $50 and He Says There's No Way I Can Pay for This. So He Gives and Is $0.45 and Then His Dad Pays the Rest. So Is That the Same Thing As the Gospel of Imputed Righteousness or Gospel Imputation Is Is at the Same Thing You're Talking about Here Is That Something Different.
It's Still Different. And Here's Why It's Different and I Think They've Actually Updated That Story Somehow Is What the Rumors Say on the Streets. But If You Have To Give up $0.45 Is Still a Gospel of Amputation Because You Got to Do Something First. Actually, I Think Brad Wilcox Comes A Lot Closer in His Speeches to the Gospel of Amputation Because He Says Things like, You Know Mom Pays for the Piano Lessons at All She Expects Is for Us to Practice and Practice and Does Not Help Pay for the Lessons and That Is Much Closer Because You When You When You Accept the Gospel of Imputation You Still Believe in Obedience but That Obedience Does Not Go Towards Your Salvation. You Know It Is It Is Something That You Do Afterwords As a Fruit of the Summit Salvation That You Received and so I Really like Brad Wilcox Is Even the Resulting Gas. I Feel like He's Much Closer to the True Gospel Whereas If I'm Paying $0.45 to My Mom like That Is Going Towards the Piano Lessons, Not Very Much He Is Not Helping A Lot, You Know, but It Is Still a Sacrifice Is Still Something That I Am Cutting off from My Bank Account That $0.45 and You Look at What Christ Says I Will Have Mercy and Not Sacrifice but Go and Learn What That Means Is Basically Saying I You Know He's Promoting the Gospel of Imputation and Say I Don't Want You to Follow the Gospel of Amputation.
Yeah That's That's Really Great. Thank You, Michael and I Was Gonna Point out to We Talk about Putting on the Robes of Righteousness, the Robes of Christ and the Analogy with Her the Story with Laban and He Finally Went to Go Get the Plates He Puts on His Clothing. In Order to Pretend That He's Him.
If You Think about It in Terms of the Robes of Righteous of Christ. It Would Be like It's It's Not the If We Try to Add Our Works to It. It Would Be like Having Righteousness of Christ and His Robe and Having Little Pot Patches Here and There Where We Slept on Top of It. Her Little Piece of Duct Tape. You Know, Try to Say Well I Wasn't Quite Perfect Tears We Go Slap Some Duct Tape on It to Fill in the Holes but Christ Robe of Righteousness As Seamless As No Seem to It and so It Was the Same Thing with the Stars Laban He Didn't. He Was My Go on and Fix His Part. Here You Know He Just Took the Clothes and Put Them on As Is. That's What He Wore Would Think That Comparison. You Know It Was Funny Yes You Can about This Picture to My Mind, but Is Currently Going the Judgment Day in the Robes of Righteousness and in Christ Rose within You Got Your Name Tag Slapped on Top of It and That It Is Okay You Want to Be Judged. As You Know Is Michael Flournoy Matthew Eklund or Do You Want to Be Judged Based on Client, Christ's Merit, so I'm Just Saying Right Now When I Go to Judgment Day on Me to Make Sure I Don't Have My Name Tag on. I'm Not Wearing My Michelle Running in the Right As I Lasted Unfortunately That I'm a Step Back a Little Bit Really Good Conversation between the Two of You There. It's Interesting Matthew That You Brought up Believing Christ in the Bicycle Analogy Because It's It's Kind of Surprised to Me Now, but When When I Was Going through My Initial Faith Crisis Backgrounds 2000 I Read That Book and It Was Something I Really Tried to Hold onto. But at the Same Time God Had Guy Was Using Other Means to Reach Me with the True Gospel. There Was a Guy at Work, a Christian at Work and Kevin and He and I Would Sit and Talk at Lunch of Men He Would Vex the Tonneau and in Our Conversations and Remember Reading Believing Christ Impinging. This Is This Is This Is How I Can Prove to Kevin That Mormons Are Christians and Read This Book so I Gave It to Him to Read and Then Back within A Few Days Later in and Kinda Tossed It down to the End of the Break Room While It Wears You Lunches like This Is Not the Gospel, Not Even Close and You Know Those Kind of Interactions You Helped Me to Help You along the Way to Understanding What the Gospel Is so That Others, Fun When You Brought That up, but My Your Sexual Where You Talk about Your Nephi and His Brothers Trying to Cast the Riches before Laban's Servants before Laban Divided by the Breastplates Just Reminds Me of Revelation Chapter 4 nor the 24 Elders Have Crowns, but They Catch Them before the One Sitting on the Throne.
And They Say to the One Sitting on the Throne. You Alone Are Worthy Right so Yeah Just It's There's There's Nothing That We Can Bring That Night.
I Used To Think That That That That Analogy Made Sense to You during His Much As You Can Pay for the Bicycle You Never Gonna Pay for the Bicycle. You Guys Can Have To Help You Think That I Was Aware That at Work. The Reality of That Is That You and You Never to Get the Bicycle Never to Be Worthy of You Really Have the Money Enough Left Works the Righteousness of Their Own Accord to Get the Bicycle so How Are You Going to Get the Bicycle You Have To You Have To Have It Given You by Someone Else. Amen Ella One of the Things This Is Actually a Section Where I Have Had Some Complaints from Evangelicals and You Can Probably Imagine That a Little Bit Because I Do Quote Heavily from the Book of Mormon in This Section As I've Had Some People Write Me and Say You Do Realize That the Book of Mormon Is False, and That Nephi Is Not a Real Person Which I Say Yes This Is My Disclaimer.
I Do Recognize That Nephi and Lehi Are Fictional Characters and I Do Not Believe the Book of Mormon. But Our Audience Does and It Is a Trusted Source and so I'm Using It for That Reason, and Yellow Things I Think about Is Where Paul Says in the Acts You Were Talking to the Greeks and Says Even Some of Your Own Poets Have Said, We Are Also His Offspring and That You Know Those Poets Were Not Christian. They Were Not Writing about the Biblical God. Those Homes Go to Zeus and yet Paul.
You Know and and I Think That There's Some Leniency in Doing That Because Paul Dated the Same Time I Do Understand That There Could Be.
This Is Where I Think This May Be a Con to My Article.
If You're Using It Very Heavily. It Could Instill That Thought That Maybe This Is Scripture Because He's Using It so Much. But Again, I Stand by What I Said before That This Is a Principal That Is Very Hard to Hold onto As a Latter-Day St., Eventually You're Going to Have To Make That Decision to Either Embrace the Principal or for the Church. You Can Have Both.
They Are Diametrically Opposed to Each Other Right When I Lettered Latter-Day Saints Heard Especially Lately Quick to Quote Recent Leaders Who Are Talking Heavily about Grace and Giving Messaging That Don't Have To Be Perfect and We Discussed How That Is Different Messaging Than What We Received in the Time When We Were in the LDS Church and the Messaging Has Shifted More Towards Grace, Given Our Episode Where We Discussed the Book of Mormon, Central Video That Ben Matthew Brought up 11 of the Teachers Was Presenting a More Graceful Message and the Other Was Presenting Kind of the Traditional Perfectionism Latter-Day St. Teachings in Someone When Latter-Day Saints Kind of Are Quick to Quote Recent Leaders Talking about Grace More Know I'm I'm Left Thinking about Abraham 325 Right. The Test Is Will You Do Everything That God Commands to Be Proven Here with Right or I'm Left Thinking about You. I the Lord and down When You Do What I Say and When You Do, Not What I Said You Have No Promise That Those Passages Are Scripture for Latter-Day Saints of Michael, You're Right Is a Latter-Day St. Read Your Article and Thanks Yeah I like Best and Look Book of Mormon Teaches Imputed Righteousness I'm I'm Fine Staying Here We're Eventually Going to Run up against the Rocks of Abraham. 325 or D&C 8210 Know Those Other Passages That Are Going to Make Them Shudder.
I Think Yeah I Think so Too, and Some of This Recent Messaging.
Even the Most Grace Filled Message That Comes Out Of the Church Is Still Going to Have an Undercurrent of the Gospels, Amputation, and You Dig into the Latter Day Saints and You Ask Them Do You Believe That Baptism Is Essential in Order to Reach the Celestial Kingdom. They Will Say Yes and so That Is That $0.45 That You Gotta Pay to Get That Bicycle and so It Is a Different Gospel Than What We Believe Ultimately and so If They Don't Believe It. If They Deny It. You and That's That's a Good Thing. But the Next Question Is What Is the Difference between Our Beliefs That Because Then There Is No Difference in They Don't Need the LDS Church Is What They're Saying Is a Fine Line That They Are Walking Right Now but on the Other Thing I'll Say like You're Right They Do like to Quote the New Leaders and Way. The Reason I like to Use the Book of Mormon so Much Is Because Every Latter-Day St. Has a Testimony of the Book of Mormon Is True That It Is Valid and so It's Just an Opportunity to Pin Them down a Little Bit on All of These Beliefs That Perfection Is Required. Tanner Heaven. That Man Cannot Receive Perfection or Be Perfect and That Christ's Righteousness Is Given to Us.
All of Those Things Can Be Found in the Pages of the Book of Mormon and I Can I Push Back a Little Bit on This Article. Yeah, Please. So This Is One of the Passages That Second Nephi Passage Is Signify for Those One of the Ones Really Touch Me As Latter-Day St. When I Was Questioning I Was As on the Passages I Thought Manion of God's Really Spoke to Me.
He's Really Worked in Me Using That Passage and Give Me Comfort Because He's Talked about How Wretched He Feels and How Sinful Is and You Know but He Knows and Whom He Is Trusted, Which Is Christ so on.
But That's One of the Patches.
I Also Found That Was Basically from the Bible so You Can Find a Similar Passage in Romans 7017.
Romans 6C77 Gals Rereading Those Earlier Because I Thought It Would Come up in the Same Verse 21 He Says I like This Version Switch so As Well Go with King James When Not Listeners. King James Prompted Red Button but Then That's Not the Pure Inerrancy Preserve Word of God, like the King James Is Now Known That the Kingdoms Only and Is Kidnapped by ISO Same Verse 21 He Says. I Find That a Law That When I'd Would Do Good, Evil Is Present with Me, for I Delight in the Law of God after the Inward Man but I See Another Law in My Members, Warring against the Law of My Mind, and Bringing into Captivity to the Law of Sin Which Is in My Members. A Wretched Man That I Am Who Shall Deliver Me from the Body of This Body of Death. I Think God through Jesus Christ Our Lord.
So Then with the Mind and I'm so with the Mind I Myself Serve the Law of God, but with the Law, but with the Flesh the Law of Sin. So Similar Wording There.
So Are You Saying That Is Paul Teaching the Gospel of Amputation. There Actually I Think of Both Passages Are Teaching the Gospel of Amputation. And That's Why I Use That Passage of Nephi, Saying Live Godly Stands That the State May Nevertheless I Know in Whom I Trusted, and so the Reason That Such a Powerful Verse to Use Is Because He Saying I Do Have the Standby. I Believe I Can Be Same despite Them Because I Am Trusting in Christ Is Not Finding Solace in the Fact That You Know I've Repented, or Anything like That. He Saying I Know in Whom I Trusted, so Did You Right. They Are Very Similar Wording. If I Want to Go out on a Limb.
I Would Say That You Know That's Where the Idea for for Second Nephi Came from Was from That Passage, and They Both Have the Old Wretched Man and Witches a Little Suspect in a Really Far out on a Limb on. I Agree with Ken.
What You Been Saying Michael and Policy after Member That Romans Seven Comes after Romans One through Six Which He Expounds How the Law Makes Is Known Our Sin in Ourselves.
He Said When He Knew the Law Than He Died to Sin.
Naivety Basically Just the Sin That He Had Been Committing When He Understood the Law When God Worked in Him. The Law Became Real and It Made Him Conscious of His Sin, but T He Points Back to Abraham in Genesis and Says You Know How Was Abraham Found Righteous with God, and Says He Believed God, and It Was Credited to Him As Righteousness. So He's Teaching Imputed Righteousness All throughout the Book, so It Would Make Sense for Him to Go in Chapter 7 and Then Teach Amputated Righteousness.
So Yeah, I Agree with You I Just I Was a Try to Think of an Objection That A Lot Of the Same.
I Have Yeah That's That's Good Glad You Brought It up. All Right, My Good Go to the Next Section. All Right This Is Called the Tree of Life.
In His Vision. Lisa Lehigh Saw an Iron Rod Leading to a Tree with Fruit. They Gave Him Joy to All Those Who Ate of It.
There Was an Iron Rod That Led to This Tree in First Nephi 1122 Is Revealed That the Tree Represents the Love of God.
If I Can Expound on This Imagery. Further, I Think the Tree Represents the Cross of Christ and the Fruit Is His Grace the Iron Rod Ends of the Cross Because There's Nowhere to Go beyond That. Colossians 213 through 14 Teaches the Vicarious Atonement. In a Nutshell It Says and You, Being Dead in Your Sins and the Un-Circumcision of Your Flash.
Has He Quickened Together with Him, Having Forgiven You All Trespasses Blotting out the Handwriting of Ordinances That Was against Us, Which Was Contrary to Us and Took It Out Of the Way, Nailing It to the Cross. Romans 10 Four Asserts That Jesus Is the End of the Law for Righteousness to Everyone That Believe It. Where Does This Leave the LDS Church with Its Saving Ordinances and Covenants. In One Sense It Renders the Church Obsolete the Gospel of Amputation Puts the Emphasis on Jesus and Hang Salvation on His Merits Alone. He Effectively Becomes Our Baptism, Ceiling and Endowment. He Becomes Our Priesthood and Our Temple Romans 424 through 25 Teach That Christ Righteousness Is Accredited to Our Accounts When We Believe in Him. However, Mormonism Isn't a Bad Thing Either. If It's Viewed in Its Proper Context. There Is No System or Religion That Can Generate Righteousness, Not Even the Covenants of the Restored Gospel. However, Mormonism Is Extremely Useful When Identified As a Schoolmaster, Bringing Us to Christ. There Are so Many Ways Being Raised As a Latter-Day St. Has Helped Me Understand and Appreciate Grace in a Way I Never Could Have If I'd Been Raised Protestant in Galatians 325 Paul Says That Once Faith Is Obtained.
We Are No Longer under a Schoolmaster. If You Dissuade the LDS Church Must Be Given up in Order to Gain Something Better Thanks to the Vicarious Atonement.
Your Work Has Been Done. The Only Question That Remains Is Will You Accept It. Soon the Section and Compare Growing up Latter-Day St. to Some of Things Paul Says in Regards to His His Life in Judaism and As a Pharisee, Would You Agree with That. That's Kind of What You Are Doing the Section That Paul Had to Come to Understand Jesus As Is the End of the Law, Something That He Had Been Schooled in Just in a Similar Way, You Had to Come to Understand Jesus As the End of Mormonism Set Kind of What You're Saying Here Absolutely What I Would Say That I'm Trying to Do in This Section You One Thing Is We We Tend to Really Try to Go after Mormonism's throughout When We Are Talking to Latter-Day Saints. I Want to Say like There Is a for Mormonism and That Is to View It in a Way That It Is the Training Wheels to Come to Christ. You Know You Need the Training Wheels Initially but You Get to a Point Where You Just Don't Need Them Anymore and Absolutely You Know I Was LDS I Felt the Weight, I Think the LDS Church Is Probably As Good As Any Organization out There with Putting the Weight on You, so You Realize You Cannot Achieve It on Your's It by Yourself and Then with the Temple and in the Book of Mormon Teaching Imputed Righteousness. It Really Didn't Point to Christ. I Know A Lot Of People May Not Agree or Understand That but One Scripture That I Think of the Lot Is in First John Chapter 1, Talking about Christ and It Says the Light Shines in the Darkness and the Darkness Has Not Overcome It, Meaning That We Can Put Christ in a Box or Say That He Cannot yet His Grace Cannot Extend into the Mormon Church or a Mormon Temple and Said No. He Is the God of the Entire Universe, and I Believe That He Put Those Things in Place Where a Latter-Day St. Can See Them and Grab a Hold in and It's Ace Bridge Straight to the Gospel of Amputation to the Gospel of Grace and I like I Want to Use That Approach in This Article Because A Lot Of Times When You Just Go after My Mormonism Is Wrong. Mormon Comes to Disbelieve It, They Go Straight into Atheism or Agnosticism As I Want to Say like There Is a Path to the True Gospel Care for Mormonism to Grace That Answers Your Question Yeah Is Good for You. If You Have Anything That Yeah No It's Great. I Really Love the Way You Explained.
I Think You Michael. I Was Also Reading When the Comments to Add Enough, He Wanted to Talk about It We Can Little Bit, Not the Long One. The One from Gary.
The Shorter One. Yeah, It's It's Interesting How You Compare the Districts to a Schoolmaster, You Can Use That to Lead You to Christ and I Said That It Can Be Used by God to Lead People to Christ. So Do You Think That As We Talked about How LDS Leaders Are Leaning More toward Grace.
You Think That at the Moment There Is Enough of the True Gospel. There, That If a Latter-Day Same Is Humbled to the Point Where They Feel like I Can't Do It.
I Know That I Need to Be Perfect and I Need to Be Righteous Bites. Just Asking Jesus to Help Me Is Not Good Enough to Do. Is There Enough of the Gospel Being Taught in the Church Nowadays That You Think They Could Grasp onto the True Gospel and You Born Again. I Think There's a Concerted Effort in the Church Right Now on the LDS Church to Be a Chameleon and Act like They Are Evangelical, Almost When They Are Preaching These Messages and I Think the Intent of That Is to Confuse Outsiders into Really Thinking That They Are Christian, so That We Will Lower Our Guard and Will Be Easier to Convert. I Think That's the Intention However I Do Think It Is a Double-Edged Sword.
I Think That There Is Enough of the True Gospel That God Can Reach down and That He Can Convict Somebody's Heart and That They Can Be Saved in Mormonism.
So I Think It Not Only Confuses Outsiders but I Think He Can Confuse Members of the LDS Church to You Said the Beginning of the Purpose of This Article Is Not to Talk about Obedience after Faith. So Now Because like a Follow-Up Topic but Just Because I Know There's Can Be A Lot Of Latter-Day Saints like No Biting at the Reno Jumping at the Bid Single Jesus Said You Need to Follow Him and Obey His Commandments.
If We Love Him and I Think We As Christians Would All Say Amen to That Jesus Did Say We Would. He Did Say to Come, Follow Me. So Were Not Talking about a Gospel Where He Can Just Sit in Our Lounge Chairs. They Will Yeah I Believe and You Know Not Strive after Righteousness, Not Strive after You Know, Overcoming and Mortifying or Are Killing Our Sins a Note Becoming More like Jesus. So Could You Give like a Brief Explanation to That and How That Fits in with This Article.
Maybe I Will.
So Basically, One Thing That I've Explained the Latter-Day Saints in the past Is That No Matter Which Gospel You Believe and You Will Believe in and the Other One, to an Extent As Well.
So One of Them Is Going to Be the Parent Gospel and the Other One Is Gonna Be Basically the Child Gospel in Relationship. So, for Example, Say You Believe in the Gospel of Amputation. I'm Going to Amputate All of My Sins and Then the Fruit of That Is Going to Be Imputation You Know That I'm Going to Be Saved or A Lot Of Latter-Day Saints Will Say That That They Believe Imputation on My Brother Would Be One of Those but It Comes at Baptism so You Gonna Do Your Part First. It's That Whole Mantra That A Lot Of Latter-Day Saints Have Which Is I'll Do My Best and Then Christ Will Do the Rest.
Whereas It's the Folks around for Asked As Christians. So Imputation Is What Saves Us, but after That There Is a Fruit That Comes Out Of It Where We Are Sacrificing Where We Are Being Obedient Is Nothing Whatsoever to Do with the Salvation Itself. It Is a Fruit of That Salvation of That Changed Heart. So We Go into a Process Called Think of Vacationing, but I Would Compare to His Marriage. I Know You Don't Know A Lot about That Matthew but You Will Soon Be Talking about Something on the Background I Know about Progress on My Deck and Now Your Marriage Is Scum, and I Was Prompted to Give to Be a Prophet to Predict Matthew's Marriage and Mean.
He's like the Most Eligible Bachelor on Earth, but the League Is to Say Is You Know You Get Married by Just Saying I Do Right and Mean It and Then Afterwards after Your Married You, You Do Chores Write like You Take out the Garbage and and Stuff like That so That I Would Say Is You'll Latter-Day Saints and That You Have To Be Obedient to Be Saved Is like Saying That You're Not Really Married until You've Taken out the Garbage so Many Times in Wash Dishes so Many Times and Actually Doesn't Work That Way at All. The Marriage Itself Shouldn't Dissolve Based on That You Know Chores Do Not Make the Relationship or the Covenant Promises of Marriage. It Is a Fruit You Know You Can Tell More Or Less That Somebody Is That a Couple Is Married Based on How They Behave and How They Love Each Other and That Is What We Are in We Are in a Marriage with Christ. The Church Is His Ride and so We Are We Are Just Living out That Relationship Now and I Know Latter-Day Saints Will Jump on That and They Will Say OC Believe You Can Send As Much As You Want and What I Will Respond. Typically Is All Say Is There Somebody in Your Life That Loves You Unconditionally Know.
Maybe a Spouse or Parent. In the Say Yes Not Say That Is Your Intention to Betray That Person As Much As You Can.
And of Course Will Say No It's It's Really Kind of Ridiculous When You Think about It in a Real-Life Scenario. People Just Don't Behave That Way When There Somebody That Loves You and You're in a Relationship You Try to Please That Person and It Is a Natural Thing That You Think That Explains It. Matthew You Want to Add Anything to It. I Think That's Great. Yeah, the Humans, the Scripture Talks about How God Compares Marriage to the Union between Christ and His Church, and That's Why You Know Why God Has Such Strong Words against Divorce Because You Know It's If It's Represent Union between Christ and His Church Which Doesn't Separate We Should Adopt If It All Possible, and Is Also Always Circumstances That Would Know That Would Result in the Know That in Dissolved, but We Should Try to Stay with Her Spouse Know Our Lives and so I Think That Is a Really Good Explanation. Now the Thing That I Would. I Would Think Is Latter-Day St. out Pushback on His like What What If a Spouse Breaks the Marriage Covenant and Does Something That Would Know like Note Sheets or Does Whatever Abandons a Spouse in the Now Because Divorce so Is Not Admitting That That You Can Lose Your Salvation Because That's Something That Latter-Day Saints Often Pushes a Will There's Always Passages a Show You Can Measure Salvation.
So Why Do You Evangelicals Believe That You Can't Lose It. How Would You Kenneth Deal with That One. Think What I Would Do That Would Turn to to the Gospels Where Jesus Is Asked by the Pharisees, You Know What Why Did Moses Allow a Writing of Divorce, and He Says Because of the Hardness of Their Hearts. You Moses Allowed This, but from the Beginning It Was Not so. And Jesus Has Some Very Strong Words for Those Who Divorce Now Saying That It's Adultery or Your Causing Somebody to Come to Commit Adultery. You Know, so It's Not It's a Man Thing. It's Not a God Thing You Know It's Not for Our God to You to Abandon Similar to End the Marriage Bill Is a Salic Law I Can I Go, I Have the Agency Write I Can Choose to Leave Signal. What Happens When When That Occurs in Scripture.
You Know What Happens When the Sheep Strains Christ Runs out and Gets It Right so He's He's a Good Husband. The Brian Runs off and He Was after Her.
So Know There's There's No Ending to That Marriage Is Permanent and Some Spare Comps Right Is Document Matthew Brought Another Week or so Ago. I Don't Know Who's "Something like It.
If It Were Possible to Lose Your Salvation You Would Write and That's That's Where the Despair Latter-Day Saints Comes in by on the One Hand, They Want to Argue and Say… The Agency You Christians Are Silly for Believing in and the Preservation of the Saints. But If You Can. If You Could Lose Your Solution, You Would Still Be Set by Sin. Latter-Day Saints Know It. I Knew It. I Know It. And so If You Could, You Would Know Latter-Day Saints Saying No.
No Unclean Thing Can Enter the Presence of God Will Who's Who's Who's Going to Be Clean. Minus the Full Righteousness of Christ to Live in If Any Measure of It Depends on Your Righteousness. You Figure out so I Don't Understand Y Latter-Day Saints Argued for Four Hey We Can Relieve Our Salvation. Yeah, and the Thought Just Popped in My Head to Look like Is That That What It Really Means to Lose Your Salvation Anything about Especially Understanding Imputed Righteousness, It Means That Righteousness Has To Be Unimpeded. Your Adopted Is As a Child of God See You Got Be Unadopted and US Kenny Latter-Day St. Know Your Child Breaks Your Rules in the House. Are You Going to Throw Them out on the Street and None of Them Would You Know They're All Going to Admit That That Would Be Cruel or If Your Spouse Breaks Your Rules Are You Going to Kick Them out on the Street. It's like, No, Because That and It's like Yeah Father Might Punish His Children.
Somehow That Is Not to Be so Severe That You're Not My Child Anymore. So Why Would God Behave That Way. Why Should They Expect Him to Be That Way. Just It Just Seems so Petty and You're Just like I Love Having Been Able to Rest in My Salvation and Just Knowing That God Has Me despite What I May and What I Will Do in the Future Is Not Blessed Feeling to Know That It's Not about You It's about Turning Back to Christ. There Is Only Times Latter-Day St. I Just Felt Hopeless Enough like That I Feel I Could Be Doing Pretty Good. He Now Be like on a Roller Coaster and Then I'd Completely Fall down into a Hat and into a Valley and Have To Try to Drag Myself Back up and Now It's like with It with the Doctor of Imputed Righteousness Were Going to Have Days a Revolving of Weeks Will Rescind More.
What Were We Might Slip Back into Us and That We Had before and We Say Manion I Really Got Work on This and Know We Have To Repent and Sort Faith and Repentance Is a Thing That Christians Should Do and That We Should Practice Because after Transit but Are Standing with the Lord Is Not Affected by It. It's It's a Sanctification Process Were Still Justified Were Still Declared Righteous before God in Faith Alone in Christ, but Our Signification Does Not Determine Our Standing before God and I and There Will Be a Day When We Will Be Delivered from This Body of Sin.
This Is Paul's Document in Romans Seven, so That There Is Hope That There's Some at Some Point Jesus Will Completely Save Us from This Sin Nature Which I Don't Know Is Latter-Day St., Did You Ever Get That Feeling It to Me. It Felt like All Have To End and I Think It Was the Comment That Someone Posted on All Just Quickly Quote a Line from Them.
This Is a Probationary Status Is from Gary Who Posted on Your Blog. So This Is a Probationary State, but Alma Did Not Say We Couldn't Repent. After This Life, Which, As You Stated It Is Hard without a Body and Not Being Able to Live in a Physical World for Which It Was Intended. So Christ Wants Us to Be Saved on His Conditions of Repentance for His through His Atoning Grace and Love. So They're Kind of Agreeing That What We Said in the past Is like at Some Point We Will Have To Repent of All of Our Sins Will Basically Have To Stop Sinning Completely by Our Repentance As a Kind of What You're Getting Out Of That Also Yeah That Is What I'm Getting Out Of There Is You the May Salable Were Saved by Grace. You Know It's All It's All Christ. But They're Not Telling the Whole Story, There's Gonna Be Another Life. If We Haven't Finished Repenting, Similar to Purgatory. In A Lot Of Ways I Think That You Have To Pay for Our Sins One Way or Another and They're Gonna Have To All Be Repented of Because No Unclean Thing Can Enter the Kingdom of Heaven. And I Think It Gets a Little Bit Convoluted Sometimes Because They'll Say All Belief Is Contiguous Eternities. You Know to Become Totally Perfect. It's Not Can It Be Something That's Gonna Happen Anytime Soon.
I'm Just Constantly Thinking to Myself, Do You Really Think Judgment Day Is Eternities off You Know That Day Is Going to Come and We Have To Be Spotless, One Way or Another and I Think Latter-Day Saints Realized That Deep down It Also Destroys the Beauty of the Parable with the Rich Man and Lazarus. Because There Is a Rich Man at the Table He Wasn't Feeding. Lazarus Has Become Crumbs off of the Table and When They Both Died. The Lazarus He Is Brought up in Abraham's Bosom Doesn't Say Anything about Millennia Are Thousands of Years.
Her Eternity Repenting.
It Says It Is Immediately Caught up into Abraham's Bosom so I Cannot Destroys This Idea of We Need All This Time to Repent and Then We Can Enter Heaven Will Respond to Something That Gary Sadly Says That the Book of Mormon Does Not Say That We Cannot Repent. After This Life, but That He Conceives That It Is Harder to Repent. There Which Still Puts Mormonism in a Really Precarious Spot Because I Guess in the Article If You Can't Do It Here.
Then There's Not Much Hope of Doing It in the Spirit World.
If It's Harder Material, 4213 Actually Says I Didn't Quoted in the Article Says. Therefore, According to Justice, the Plan of Redemption Could Not Be Brought about Only on Conditions of Repentance of Men in This Probationary State Gave This Preparatory State by the Age of the Book of Mormon Says That It's Talking about Mortal Life for except It Were for These Conditions. Mercy Could Not Take Effect except to Destroy the Work of Justice.
Know the Work of Justice Could Not Be Destroyed.
If so, God Would Cease to Be God. So Basically What This Is Saying Is If Repentance Can Occur outside of the Probationary State outside of Mortality Destroys the Justice of God so I Understand It yet.
Gary Is Saying That That Isn't Church Doctrine and He Is Right. It's Not LDS Doctrine. However, It Is with the Book of Mormon States Quite Plainly I Was Reminded, Who, 34, 34, Which Says You Cannot Say When You're Brought about Awful Crisis That I Will Repent My Will Return to My God May Be Cannot Save This for the Same Spirit Which to Possess Your Bodies at the Time You Go Out Of This Life. That Same Spirit Will Have Power to Possess Your Body Are Not Eternal World so You Know What Is a Gary When Gary's Kind of Looting to Various Teaching That I Remember Receiving Is Letter Saying That You Know Especially with Regards the Word of Wisdom You Review a Drunkard.
If You Smoke You Do Something That Ruins Your Bodies Here That Same Spirit Will Will Possess Your Possess You. When You Go Out Of This World. So It's Can Be 20 Says Can Be Harder to Repent. He's Referring to That Kind of Teaching Which Was Your Your Injections Are Gonna Follow You into That World. Whatever Sin Besets You Now and You Will You Allow Yourself to Be Overtaken by Will Follow You into the Next World and Will Be Even Harder to Repent Their and What a Hopeless Message. Yeah, It's like It Follows Right behind What They Try to Promote As a Hopeful Message Which Is You Get Another Chance after This Life within the Small Writing at the Bottom of the Contract Says That It's Harder to Do It. Here Okay Nevermind That Doesn't Give Me Hope I Did, I Did Actually Get Some Criticism on This Last Section of My Articles. I Will Read the Sentence Here That That People Kind of Heckled Me over and Explain Have Explained It, but Just One Last Time. Here Okay so I Said However Mormonism Isn't a Bad Thing Either. If It's Viewed in Its Proper Context Because We Believe the Bombing Messages I Got Saying How Can I Say Such a Thing That Is Not Speaking the Truth. Mormonism Is Very Bad and Satanic Etc. Etc. Again Just to Clarify, I Was Talking about. In One Particular Instance for One Particular Function. And That Is Coming to Christ with It and I Would Say the Exact Same Thing with Any Sand or Any Problem That We Have in Human Life That Drives Us and Pins Is against the Wall Drives Us to Our Knees and Leaves Us Prostrate on the Ground, Hoping for Nothing but Christ's Grace Is a Good Thing in the Respect That It Brings Us to Christ.
I'm Not Saying That I Think Mormonism Is a Good Thing in General Just for Any Listeners That Got That Impression, I Want to Jump in Your Earlier, Touch on This, but Now the Right Time for You My My Biblical Namesake Was a Wretched Sinner. He Wanted out, Persecuting the Church Stood by While Stephen Was Stoned to Death Holding the Garments of Those Who Were Throwing the Stones the Brand of Pharisaic Judaism That He Followed the Seal That You Had Was Misplaced, but All of That Was Redeemed by God. And Because He'd Been through It.
He Wrote Some of the Most Beautiful and Amazing Scripture That We Have and I'm Not Suggesting Michael Your Writing Scripture with This Article but I Think It's Important to Remember That God Saves and God Redeems Our Stories Coming Out Of Mormonism Is Very Difficult and Leads to Anger Leads to Frustration and Those Emotions Often Lead to Agnosticism and Atheism Is People Have Anger Towards God and so Your Article Extending That All of Branches Saying Hey You Know What Sometimes Best Story Is Redeemed by God.
That Personal Story That Somebody Went through Is Redeemed by God. I Think That's True.
I Think It Is a Reality That Each of Us Is Experienced and That We Hope Other Latter-Day Saints Will Experience As They Come to Know the True God and His Son Jesus Christ and in the Extending This Olive Branch to Ex-Mormons As Well. I Know That It's Really Easy for Ex-Mormons to Look Back at the Church and Feel Really Bitter and Angry and Said to Them, I'm Also Saying There Is Another Way to Look at This As a Positive Thing in Our Lives and It's Really Helped Me to Look at It That Way so That I'm Not Consumed with Bitterness and Anger Myself but along the Lines of What You Are Saying Call I Also Think about Joseph in Egypt, You Know, His Brothers Sold Him into Egypt and Certainly That Was a Very Bad Thing. You Know, and I Love What Joseph Says to Them You Know Later on in Genesis You Know You Meant It for Evil but God Mess with You.
You Can Probably Quote This Better Than Me You Had It Going You Meant It for Evil but God Meant It for Good. God Essentially Just Chapter 50 Yes It Is an Evil Action, but Because of That Evil Action, You Know, God Was Able to Use It and It Saved the Entire House of His Battle. So Yeah, I Think the Action Is Good but yet like He Said, God Redeems the Things We Do and and I Think God Has a Hand in the Way That Mormonism Was Structured Where There Are These These Bridges That Lead Straight to Christianity.
If You Know What Her Luck so Yeah That's Pretty Much the Reason for My Articles Just Appoint Some of Those out Husk I Think of Shannon I Don't Really Have Anything to Add to What You Guys Are Said the Great Stuff to Agree and I Appreciate You Guys Do Me the Chance to Go to the Article Means A Lot to Me Is Really Good. Things Are Well Written and I Could See like You Said A Lot Of Evangelicals and Apologists in Canada Triggered at the Lady Favored the Data Is Presented, but I Think Anger at Think You Presented Your Case Really Will, for the Purpose of It Vitiated. Thank You for Doing into This Episode of the Outer Podcast We Love to Hear from You.
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