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Welcome, Fireflies, to this episode of the Outer Brightness Podcast. Thank you for joining us today. We will be talking about the gathering of Israel.
What does that mean? How does that affect Latter-day Saints today? And how does that affect us as Christians? So let's start off with talking about the 10th LDS article of faith, which states, we believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the 10 tribes, that Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be built upon the American continent, that Christ will reign personally upon the earth and that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. Today we will be discussing the gathering of Israel from the LDS perspective, what we thought this meant as practicing Latter-day Saints and how it compares to what Christians understand of the gathering of Israel today.
Thank you for joining us. So let's start off with a question. When reading the 10th article of faith, as we just did in the introduction, what did you understand the literal gathering of Israel to mean as a Latter-day Saint? So Paul, would you like to start off with that?
Yeah. So my understanding of it, and I've been trying to think as we've been preparing for this topic on like, what was my experience of this teaching when I was kind of a young child growing up in the LDS church? You know, kind of growing up in Utah when I was younger, I remember there kind of being a lot of speculation on when exactly we would return to Jackson County because Jackson County, Missouri was supposed to be the gathering place as taught by Joseph Smith. And so that was supposed to be the place where Jesus would return to before the millennium. And I remember in church discussions, there was always a lot of, a lot of speculation when, when will the prophet give that direction for us to go back to Jackson County?
And especially as gathering food storage kind of became a big thing in the, in the 1980s when I was a child, there was a lot of speculation that, that that guidance was in preparation for that because you would need stores of food to travel across country. So yeah, there's that. And then if I think about kind of like teachings that I received within my family about this, there's a, do you guys remember the website AskGramps?
Yep. There's a question on there that, that really kind of gets at the teachings that I kind of received about this as a child. And I'll just read that question. It says, I would like to know why my dad believes that the lost 10 tribes live at the North pole under all that ice. He says that they will return someday, but right now they're living inside the earth, maybe with the global warming issue, the ice will melt and let them out. Anyway, my dad said he learned this in church growing up, but I don't think they are teaching it now. Is it doctrine or is my dad crazy? Do you believe the lost 10 tribes live under the ice?
And so that's, that's definitely a teaching that I heard from my mom when I was growing up. And it's based on Doctrine and Covenants section 133 verses 26 and 27. And they who are in the North countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord and their prophets shall hear his voice and shall no longer stay themselves. And they shall smite the rocks and the ice shall flow down at their presence and an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep. So that, that passage was kind of interpreted by some Latter-day Saints, quite a few, I would think, at least in the, in the Mountain West to mean that, that the North or the, the lost 10 tribes were somewhere in the, in the North pole area under the ice. Which always kind of struck me as a, as a strange belief, but that's definitely what my mom believed. And, and you know, she believed that, that when the call came to return to Jackson County, that the lost 10 tribes would then come from those North, from that North area. So yeah, that's, that's kind of what I understood the literal gathering of Israel to me. And in addition to missionaries going out from the LDS church to gather Ephraim and Manasseh. Wow.
Thank you, Paul. I'd never heard of that explanation of them being in the North pole or around the North pole. So wait, do they believe that, or I hope it doesn't sound offensive, but is that where all the toys are made for Christmas? All the little elves under the North pole? I mean, it's, it's an interesting question, but yeah. No, I don't, I don't think they believe that they're Santa's elves, but, uh, yeah.
Am I the only one that, that heard that teaching? Yes. Okay. I've never heard that before.
Okay. My mom's, my mom's from Idaho, so maybe it's a fringe Idaho Mormon belief. You might learn about it in Idaho Falls, Matthew.
We'll see how that goes. Brianna and Michael, do you have anything to add to that? Well, I will say like my understanding of that was very different from Paul's. Um, I also never have heard that idea that they live. I actually think I may have heard it once from somebody that they lived under the North pole.
Cause it does sound a little bit familiar, but definitely not the normal thing that I heard. So, you know, as far as the, the scattering of Israel, I think that's pretty clear. You know, the, uh, the two tribes were both conquered. Israel was scattered, um, as a latter day saying, I believe that there would be a literal gathering. Um, and kind of the theories that I would hear a lot of times was that, you know, I'd be on my mission and somebody would say like, Hey, maybe the Aborigines in Australia are one of the last tribes.
And so they try to point to different groups of people and, and speculate. Um, I thought maybe the Mongolians constituted a tribe. I'd read about the blessings that, uh, that Joe, uh, Jacob gave his sons and I'd be like, okay, these are characteristics of, of these people.
And I would try to match them with somebody else. And it was really fun for me to speculate and, and try to guess who, who the last tribes were. But I figured that there would be an event at some point that would draw them out and it was, and it was going to gather them all together into one place. And there's going to be this new Jerusalem and a new Israel. Um, but I also believe that the church was, was gathering Israel, uh, because you became an Israelite baptism in the LDS church, you became the seed of Abraham.
And so you, you became part of that. And so that's why we'd have our, uh, patriarchal blessings and they would name our, the tribe that we were from. So supposedly I'm from the tribe of Ephraim because of that. And they would always say like, Ephraim is the tribe that is in charge. I think they said Manasseh too, but Ephraim is in charge of the gathering of Israel.
We're in charge of the missionary work and, and turning people into seed and heirs of Abraham and of the promise. Is that pretty much what you heard Brianna? Yeah, pretty much the same thing.
Um, just like also on top of that, like just, I think the idea of like where the gospel would go forth and all the lands and like the building up of temples, like I would be looking for that as evidence that, you know, it's getting closer and closer to that time of the gathering. Yeah. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Hopefully with our more extended discussion, we'll get them to more of those details. So yeah, appreciate what you've shared so far. Uh, have you seen the LDS understanding of this literal gathering of Israel change over time or have you seen it stay relatively constant, uh, in the time that you were members? So let's start with you, Michael and Brianna. Yeah, I think we both talked about this beforehand and I don't think we really saw much of a change that I remember seeing, but really curious about what Paul saw.
Cause he, he was there longer and back farther than we were. He grew up with Martin Harris. So yeah, that's pretty much what I'm older. I might as well be the gramps that you all ask. Okay. You're like, I remember when ask gramps was asked baby.
No. Um, so yeah, I think that I have seen it change. And I, I think that, um, just, you know, the difference between my experience and, and Michael's and Brianna's and yours, Matthew, even, uh, you know, you're, you're a little bit younger than I am, but you, but you grew up in Utah as well. Um, I think in the kind of in the Mormon corridor there in the, in the Intermountain West, uh, Idaho, you know, uh, Utah, Arizona, there's, there was definitely, um, some holdover doctrines that held on longer, uh, and got talked about more than, than, you know, other areas of, uh, of church membership, like in Texas, where, where Michael grew up in California, where Brianna grew up. And I think the reason for that is that, you know, there's kind of the older, uh, there was the older gen there were the older generations of Mormons who had the older books, you know, prior to the internet coming online. And, you know, I remember going to, to bookstores and trying to find old used Mormon books.
Uh, and there was plenty of, there were plenty of bookstores where you got, where I could do that. And that, that kind of plays into it. Um, so I think, I think the differences between, you know, speculation on returning to Jackson County, um, and, and also, uh, just that difference between, uh, the kind of the folk doctrine, I would say about the return of the 10 tribes from the North countries and living under the ice. Um, that's definitely an older, uh, LDS view that that kind of held over, uh, I think in some areas of the Intermountain West, but, um, another way I think I've seen it change is, uh, and, and this really happened, uh, kind of as a result, uh, I guess of, of necessity after the pioneers went West. Um, and, you know, there was, there was still a lot of speculation then, you know, when are we going back to Jackson County? You know, we have to go and take Jackson County because that's, that's where the temple is supposed to be for the second coming.
And, um, so that speculation kind of held on for a long time. And I remember, uh, when I was on my mission, the teachings of the presidents of the church manual for Brigham Young had come out and we were studying through that in a priesthood and relief society. And I remember going over the lesson on building Zion in that, in that manual with some Hungarians on my mission. And I remember sitting there just kind of thinking through as, as the Hungarians were reading through each section of the lesson and, and doing like you do with asking the questions that are presented there and just kind of thinking through what, what is said there, um, that the focus was quick, kind of quickly shifted to from Zion being Jackson County, uh, and Independence, Missouri, to it being, um, the pure in heart, which there is, uh, I guess within Latter-day Saint scripture, uh, doctrine of covens, uh, 90, what is it? 97, uh, verse 21 says, therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord, let Zion rejoice for this is Zion, the pure in heart. Therefore let Zion rejoice while all the wicked shall mourn. Uh, Brigham Young kind of helped to shift LDS thinking on that, that Zion is, uh, can be everywhere, basically anywhere where the, where the pure in heart reside is where Zion is.
And therefore there's, there's really no need to go back to Jackson County. Um, and that's, that's interesting when you think about LDS church history and really who owns the temple lot, uh, there in independence and all of that kind of, uh, interesting, uh, sidebar type history stuff. But yeah, I've definitely seen this chat, this change. Um, and I think it's just clear that it's changed, uh, within the history of the church. It used to be, uh, everybody gathered to Kirtland then to Nauvoo, uh, then, well, Kirtland then to Jackson County, uh, until they were tossed out of Missouri and then to Nauvoo. And then everybody gathered us to Utah, uh, territory. And then, um, even after that, it started being, no, don't gather anymore.
Stay where you are. So it's this, this doctrine has definitely shifted over time. Yeah. You made a lot of great points there. It does seem like almost like a post hoc adaptation of how things that were, were going early on in the church. Like you said, they were anticipating that this was going to happen imminently, that they were, that Jesus was going to return and it was going to happen in Jackson County.
So we've all got to be prepared. And then as the decades went on and on and on, it seemed like that wasn't going to happen. Then they said, well, Zion is where wherever you are now, you know, we'll build up the church everywhere. So yeah, it does seem kind of like it's changed over the decades, not due to prophetic guidance, but it seems more like due to the change in circumstances, but that's just my observation. It's interesting too, because you guys probably remember, uh, that big push a couple of years ago where they were saying lift where you stand instead of like, it's like the opposite of like, let's gather.
It's just like, or bloom where you're planted, right? They're saying these kinds of things now. And I think you're right. I think it is kind of shifting the focus away from gathering to bloom where you are, uh, succeed where you're at, like build the church in your neck of the woods. We're not gathering any. It makes me think of, imagine the imagery of Moses in the desert and they're wandering in the desert, you know, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. And he's like, you know what, we're not going to get to Canaan. Let's just set up camp right here. Let's just make, let's just, let's just set up where we are right now. I know God promised us this promised land, but let's just, let's just pick a spot.
We'll just stake our tent and that'll be Zion. You know, it's kind of like that, but you know, if a prophet receives a prophecy that's going to happen imminently and then they change their mind and makes you wonder, well, are they really a prophet? You know, but I don't know. It would make me kind of doubt a little bit.
Yeah. Uh, so let's go to the next question. So, um, so why do you think there is a focus from LDS leaders in doctrine that this is a literal gathering of the 10 tribes of Israel?
Who wants to start first? I think, I think you touched on it a little bit, uh, Matthew, and that, um, it, it has to do with, with prophecies given by Joseph Smith, uh, with regards to the gathering to, uh, Jackson County and an independence Missouri. And the, you know, the, the whole, um, identification of Adam on diamond, uh, there in Missouri, where, uh, it is said that Adam, uh, gathered his progeny together and gave a, gave a speech before the end of his life. Um, and that, that, you know, Adam would again, uh, speak to, uh, the gathered Israel, uh, there in Jackson County. I mean, there's these prophecies from Joseph Smith, uh, were very meaningful to early Latter-day Saints. Uh, you know, excuse me, he even identified, uh, Missouri as the, the home of the Garden of Eden. So it's, you know, it was definitely, uh, believed by early Latter-day Saints that, um, much of, much of, uh, patriarchal, uh, biblical patriarchal, uh, history happened here in America, which is kind of a, an interesting view.
Um, and yeah, so it's definitely, it's all tied up with those, those prophecies of Joseph Smith, uh, and, and the belief that, that, uh, those events would, would happen imminently. I remember, uh, on my mission one time, uh, we were teaching a guy who was, uh, also kind of investigating the Seventh-day Adventist faith. And, uh, he, he kinda, uh, I don't know how do I put this, railroaded us, I guess, at one of our meetings, he said, Hey, I want you to meet with a friend of mine. And we were like, okay, sure. You know, and, uh, we get there and this friend of his was his, uh, the Seventh-day Adventist pastor who was also kind of teaching him. And he had a copy of, uh, To Moroni with Love, that pamphlet. Um, and he kind of railroaded us with all of the, all of this information about, uh, these prophecies that Joseph Smith had made about Missouri. And, you know, I talked about some of the things I learned as a child.
They were just kind of peripheral in the back of my mind. I didn't really take it all that seriously. Um, but then when I, when I had that encounter with a Seventh-day Adventist who was hitting me with, uh, some of that stuff on my mission, it really made me, made me question some things and start to look at, okay, what, what was really taught and what changed, uh, about, about these things. So, And I guess what I'll add to that, I agree with everything that Paul said, uh, but also it seems like the LDS church took some of these prophecies out of the Old Testament, uh, that, that seem to be talking about a literal gathering of Israel and they've decided to interpret it that way. And once you jump on that boat and then you're saying that you're the restored gospel and you've got prophets, it seems like you can't really, uh, steer away from that.
You know, you're kind of stuck in that mindset. So I think that's why also that they focus so much on a, on a literal gathering of Israel. Although I will say that in my experience, the focus was definitely off of the literal gathering of Israel and more on the spiritual gathering of Israel. So I'm, I'm assuming that that's something that changed over time.
That's the same with you, Brianna. Yeah. I really don't have a whole lot to say on this particular subject because I didn't really grow up like super focused on it. I remember like hearing about it in the background and I was more involved as a younger LDS girl than when I was older. Um, but I'd have like these romanticized views and like almost mystical like ideas about what it would be like.
But other than that, that's all I've really experienced. Yeah. Well you, I mean, did you guys have points in your lives where you thought like you were going to just get a spontaneous call in the middle of the night to go to Adam on Diomen and then like have, like for me, I think when I was young, I thought that was going to happen. It was just like, you know, Christmas, it's kind of like Christmas at any given time.
Like, Oh, we're going to get this call from the Bishop one night. Okay. It's time.
Get in your cars and go. But then as I got older, I'm just kind of like not really believing that that's the case anymore. Yeah.
I'm with you, Michael. When I was younger, I thought that was a possibility because it was being talked about so much, uh, in my church experience. Um, and you know, I talked about that experience of, of kind of studying through the building Zion chapter in the, in the Brigham Young manual. Um, you know, my dad is from New York and he, when he converted, he gathered quote unquote to Zion and Salt Lake city. And, you know, the Hungarians that I, uh, encountered many of them, you know, had questions about when should, you know, should we gather to Salt Lake city? You know, they, they understood what was being kind of the, the undercurrent of, of the teachings, you know, about gathering. And so there were always questions, should we gather to Salt Lake?
You know, some of them wanted to. And so, yeah, I remember in that, in that lesson, uh, one person who had one, uh, Hungarian Latter-day Saint who had, um, moved to Canada, uh, and had, and had eventually, you know, wanted to move to Salt Lake city and gather there. He had, he was returning, he had returned home to visit and he got into a little bit of an argument, uh, during, with another Hungarian Latter-day Saint during that lesson about, you know, what was being said about, you know, Zion is the pure in heart and kind of like you were saying, Michael recently, the language just kind of shifted to, uh, lift where you lift, where you are or whatever it is. Um, yeah. So there was kind of an argument there between the two, you know, that one's saying, no, we shouldn't gather the other saying, no, it's, it's the teaching of the church that we should. So yeah, great points guys.
I don't really have anything to add to that so far. You are listening to outer brightness, a podcast for post Mormons who are drawn by God to walk with Jesus rather than turn away. Outer brightness, outer brightness, outer brightness.
There's no weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth here, except when Michael's hangry that is hangry that is hangry that is. We were all born and raised in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints headquartered in Salt Lake city, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings. The name of our podcast, outer brightness reflects John one nine, which calls Jesus the true light, which gives light to everyone. We have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told it would be. And the light we have is not our own.
It comes to us from without thus outer brightness. Our purpose is to share our journeys of faith and what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of that transition, the fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between.
We're glad you found this and we hope you'll stick around. So how would you understand a gathering of Israel for today, now that you are a born again Christian, or is that just something that we as Christians don't really talk about? So Paul would you like to start off with that? Yeah, I think it is something we talk about. It's, it's kind of the main difference between a dispensationalists and kind of covenant theology, I would say, or one of the main differences.
It's not maybe not the main, but it's one of the main differences. I remember when I was in a Christian seminary and taking my kind of introduction to hermeneutics class and reading through the texts that we were studying for that class. One of the, one of the statements that's made in that book early on is you know, that one of the main questions with regards to hermeneutics that will, that will drive how you interpret scripture is what is the relation between Old Testament Israel and the church? And I remember reading that and you know, coming from a, from a Mormon background being kind of maybe a little bit confused initially by that statement and not really understanding you know, the various Christian positions that there are with regards to that. And so yeah, I think it's something we definitely as Christians think about in terms of how I understand it. I'm not a dispensationalist.
So I don't, I kind of view there that the church is spiritual Israel, the church is spiritual Israel. So yeah, that's, that's my view today. Yeah. Great. Thank you.
Yeah, it is. That is an interesting topic amongst Reformed and dispensational and different types of groups. How these prophecies like in Jeremiah 23, how is that actually going to look like? And you have some that are trying to build a third temple in Jerusalem, and they're looking for signs to show the signs of the times, signs of the enemy, the end and the coming of Christ. They're trying to work all that out and they're trying to talk about it. You know, a lot of people thought that with the nation of Israel, with the creation of the nation of Israel, that that was one sign that the ending was near. So yeah, it's interesting to see how history has gone and how Christians have seen that the events in history, some have tried to tie that to biblical prophecy and some of kind of just been prayerfully hoping, you know, waiting on the Lord rather than trying to figure out everything and tying everything in history to what the Bible says. Brianna and Michael, do you have anything to add to that?
Yeah. So how do I view the gathering of Israel now? It is not even on my radar, to be honest. I actually called a couple of my, my, my brothers today and I was talking to them about it, my Christian brothers and, and they're like gathering of Israel.
What's that? It was kind of funny because I looked it up on YouTube too. I'm like, well, I'm going to, I'm going to just get to see what happens when I do this. And the first four videos are all from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And then I go to the first one that isn't and I listened to that and it's one of these, I don't know, black Hebrew guys and he starts talking and it's, and it's King James only. And I'm like, okay, like I just have the red flags going off everywhere in my head. Like, are all the people that talk about this, is it, are they just cults?
Is that what's going on here? So it's really triggering for me. And I guess I think of it more of a, as a Latter-day Saint thing than being really high on my priority list as a Christian is something that I'm thinking about. But that said, I mean, I do believe that, you know, we are, we are spiritual Israel.
I mean, like what it says in Galatians that we, if we are Christ, then we are heirs of Abraham and heirs to the promise. So in that sense, yes. But other than that, I don't really think about it at all now. Yeah.
I'm on this, I'm on the same like vibe as Michael here. Like it just wasn't really on my radar. I kind of felt like a noob going into this cause I'm like, I don't really know much. I don't know. Other than what I knew as an LDS person, which wasn't a whole lot either, but I am interested in hearing like what you guys have to say about it.
Yeah. It's a, it's something that I haven't thought too much about just because you don't talk about it in such terms as we did as Latter-day Saints, you know, in a lot of these saints, they would be talking about the literal gathering. And as, as Paul said, you know, in Jackson County and things like that, or as in Christianity, we're, we're focusing more on the return of Christ to the world. I think, you know, when he returns in judgment, I think we think of more in terms of that rather than saying, we all need to gather in one special place, you know, in Adam, Monday almond or wherever. So yeah, it's a little bit different, but I agree with Paul that it's more about a spiritual gathering of Israel that we're going out throughout the world sharing the gospel. And in that way, God is gathering his elect people to cry, you know, to Christ and to the church to worship together. And in that sense, so it's kind of a spiritual fulfillment, but I think there is also an actual kind of physical gathering of Israel going on when we read passages like Romans 11. So in here, Paul says, I say, then God has not rejected his people has he far from it for I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. And then he continues on going about how Gentiles were grafted in to the to the olive tree. And he says, I do not want you brothers and sisters to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so it all Israel will be saved just as it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion, you will remove ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.
So dispensationalists kind of take that as literal. And that's when they talk about the millennium, like after Christ returns and the the gods people are raptured, then there will be that thousand years where there will be it'll be kind of like the time of Israel. Well, they'll come back and they'll have all of their lands given to them as God promised them in the Old Testament. So there will be a literal fulfillment of that. But even in the Reformed covenant theology sense, they do believe that God is going to pour out the spirit amongst, amongst descendants of the Jews. So there will be kind of like a work that will bring more of them back to Christ, you know, the people that had once rejected Jesus will be once again coming back to Jesus.
And I think we even see that being fulfilled today. There's a really large growing movement of messianic Jews in Israel today who are Jewish by birth, and they practice a lot of kind of Jewish ceremonial, not ceremony in terms of animal sacrifice or things like that, but kind of their liturgical calendar, you know, they'll celebrate like the Feast of Tabernacles, things like that, because they see that as pointing to Christ. So they don't see it as something necessary for their salvation, but as something that enriches their worship of Christ, and they all converted to Christ, messianic Jews are Christians. So I do see this as a partial fulfillment of God actually bringing in Jews back into Christ's flock. So I see it kind of as a little bit of both.
I see the gathering of Israel being spiritual Israel being the New Testament Church, but also bringing Jews back into the covenant and God remembering them and bringing them unto him in faith. So I've already kind of talked about some of this stuff. So I might kind of try to fidget with the questions a little bit. That's all right. Because we already kind of talked about the spiritual gathering rather than a literal gathering. Hey, if you don't mind, I want to kind of jump in here before and you can turn while I'm talking, think about how you want to handle the questions. But I want to kind of add to the last question, and we can kind of kick off because I'm going to end up moving things around.
So this will work well. So I'm looking at my systematic theology texts that I studied in Christian Seminary by Dr. Jack Cottrell. And I'm looking at his chapter on interpreting biblical prophecy. And he's talking about, you know, the Old Testament prophecies with regards to Israel.
And Michael made the point that, you know, Latter-day Saint teaching has kind of interpreted some of those Old Testament prophecies in a literal way and as being fulfilled in modern times. And that's consistent with the way that dispensational theology kind of approaches Old Testament biblical prophecy with regards to Israel, as you were noting, Matthew. But he's talking about some of the kind of the main events in Israel's history after the captivity in Egypt. And, you know, the first one he kind of notes is the possession of Canaan. And he kind of calls out the passages where that's prophesied and then the passages that show where it was fulfilled in the Old Testament. And then he talks about, you know, the disobedience of Israel and their captivity in Babylon and where that is prophesied and fulfilled. And then he talks about, you know, kind of the third main event being the return to Canaan and rebuilding of the temple. So the return from the Babylonian captivity and where that's prophesied and fulfilled. And about that, he says, he says this quote, the next main event in the history of Old Testament Israel was their return to their homeland and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple. This return was predicted clearly in Deuteronomy 30 verses one through five. After a period of banishment and a season of repentance, quote, the Lord your God will restore you from captivity and have compassion on you and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.
The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your father's possessed and you shall possess it, end quote. And that's, then he says, Jeremiah 30 verse 18 says, quote, thus says the Lord, behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob and the city will be built on its ruin and the palace will stand in its rightful place. He goes on to say about this, strangely enough, many think that the numerous prophecies of this event only recently began to be fulfilled, i.e.
in AD 1948. I once heard a speaker, a Bible college professor, recite a list of the principal events in God's dealings with Israel. He listed several from the Old Testament, such as the Exodus, the monarchy, and the Babylonian captivity. Then he skipped directly to the New Testament age, leaving Israel dispersed until the great gathering in 1948. Thus, he completely ignored what must be one of the greatest events in Israel's history, comparable only to the Exodus itself, namely their restoration from Babylonian captivity in 536 BC. In so doing, he was able to block out this crucial fact that the prophecies of Israel's return to their homeland were fulfilled in Old Testament times, not in modern times.
The books of Ezra and Nehemiah record how Israel of old returned to their own land and rebuilt the city of Jerusalem, including the temple. So, that kind of sums up what my position is with regards to the Old Testament prophecies about Israel. Like I said, I'm not a dispensationalist. And part of that I think is because I'm triggered by the whole dispensational view, because it shares so much with the way that Latter-day Saint theology has approached the prophecies with regards to Israel. Obviously, there are some really key differences with regards to, you know, Christian dispensationalists don't have any views at all with regards to Jackson County, but yeah, it shares a lot in terms of how they interpret those prophecies. So, can I play devil's advocate real quick, Paul, and just throw one quick question at you?
Sure. Just your interpretation of the prophecy in Ezekiel 37, because this is a big one that Latter-day Saints bring up, although for some reason they bring it up with like the Book of Mormon and the Bible, which makes enough sense. You know, take up the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph, and they will be one in your hand, which I think is really strained with the context of this.
But what it does say, Ezekiel 37, just kind of starting here in verse 19, say to them, Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph that is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand, when the sticks on which ye write are in your hand before their eyes. Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king over them all. And they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But he specifically says here, Ephraim and Judah, and I mean, is there a place in the Old Testament after those kingdoms are divided, where they are brought back together? Or is there a way that you can think of to explain that? Because that is one where it seems a little bit trickier than the other Old Testament passages.
Yeah, yeah, you're right, I can see what you're saying. I would need to, I would need to think on that some more. My thinking on this passage has, has generally been more in regards to the way Latter-day Saints use it, to try to make it a prophecy about the Bible and the Book of Mormon being one in your hand, rather than looking specifically at it from an eschatological perspective with regards to, you know, the two kingdoms being united again.
I'll have to look into that. Eschatology has not been an area of really in-depth study for me thus far in my time, in my time as a Christian. I really have focused on trying to understand and make sure I have a good grounding in what the gospel is. And so, you know, there's a sense in which some of the peripheral or secondary doctrines are kind of, they're not, I wouldn't say they're on a shelf. I just haven't made an in-depth, really, really in-depth study of them yet. So that's a long way of saying, I don't have an answer to your question right now. That's cool.
I don't either. So, yeah. I was, yeah, I was just checking out the ESV study Bible, the notes here. It says the houses of Israel and Judas, verses 15 through 28 and Ezekiel 37, the re-creative activity of verses one through 14, including homecoming. Although homecoming remains a minor element in the dry bones vision that provides a link to this oracle, a symbolic action as in chapters four to five.
I think I went a little bit too far. Sorry about that. Yeah, I was going to the dry bones section. Although that is kind of, I've seen dispensationalists talk about the dry bones section, where they see that as kind of like, you know, not, you know, speaking about Israel coming back to faith in Christ kind of a thing. Yeah, that's something I'd have to, I'd have to think more about this too, just because it is a difficult topic. But I was also reading an article earlier from a dispensationalist where he was saying, it's strange when you get into eschatology too, it's hard to want to study it because there is so much kind of, I don't want to say vitriol, but there, there are some very strong statements sometimes made between across lines, across party lines kind of thing, where the dispensationalist in the article I was reading said basically, well, people will try to spiritualize these promises that God gave to Israel by basically saying that God doesn't keep his promises, you know, like being very, very, very strong in his language it gets about, about non-dispensationalist. So it's hard to want to study eschatology, but and this particular aspect of eschatology isn't my specialty either. I've kind of studied more more.
Yeah. But like the old covenant versus the new covenant there's a lot of discussion on the millennium. I mean, when you get into the eschatology, there's a slew of topics related to that.
So I'm not an expert on this either. But I do find eschatology interesting and I think it does have implications on our, on our on our theology. So maybe we should do an episode on eschatology at some point where we can get into all the views.
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