New Life with Paul Cardall

As things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made was life like shines in the darkness the darkness is coming.

We were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in court in Salt Lake City, Utah, more commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ based on biblical teachings name of our podcast outer brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light gives light to every we have found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. It comes to us from without. Thus, our brightness, our purpose is to share our journeys of faith in what God has done in drawing us to his son. We have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between were glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around listening.

However, this contrast for post-Mormons who are drawn by God, to walk with Jesus rather than turn away out of this mess. Brightness William Nash here, except when Michael's angry that is angry.

That is why Matthew, the nuclear colonist Michael BX Mormon apologist on Paul Bunyan welcome everyone to the other brightness podcast Paul here we have a very special guest on today's episode puckered always a successful pianist and recording artist whose albums have topped the Billboard charts.

I recently saw a post on Facebook alluding to the fact that Paul had posted on his musician page about his own journey from Mormonism to faith in Jesus Christ. Over the past decade, I reached out to him to ask if you would be interested in coming on our podcast to share his faith journey, fully expecting that his schedule would have been too busy for a little podcast like ours so when he responded that he would be happy to come on the show. I was super excited Paul Cargill is really kind soul with a fascinating story and were happy to have you join us meeting Mormonism presents challenges socially, psychologically and theologically. His music has been important to me as I made my transition out of Mormonism is quiet, peaceful and beautiful and I often listen to it on Sunday mornings when I listen to his album of latter-day St. hams. It reminds me of my youth, and allows me to connect with my past and enlivening healing in healthy ways. Even though I no longer believe that Mormonism is an authentic movement of God. We here at the other brightness podcast are interested in sharing not only our own faith journeys, but those of others as well. We may not take the same path or have the same views we wanted to give a platform to our guest Paul Cargill to share his experiences and ideas freely, even where we may disagree to see our understanding of topics such as salvation. The gospel of the Trinity, etc. we recommend you listen to those previous episodes of the podcast. Michael's wife Rihanna joined us for this conversation should give a quick introduction to Paul Cargill's life and work them will jump in thank you for listening miracle of award-winning postcard is a lie that he brings to something even greater story is in fact a testament to the human spirit determination of fault expressed action and are born with the profound severity could always undergo critical surgeries. The first one hours after his birth through beyond his childhood actually just had his heart. Not surprisingly, fully aware of mortality augmented by the shock of losing his closest friend auto pedestrian accident when she was just 16, three and ask if dental questions haunted gruesome real convictions and optimistic personality led him onto a path out from despair and music lit the way down that path with the piano as its foundation created, performed and recorded original pieces from others believe orchestra links success came his way.

In 1994 author Richard Paul invited him to compose a musical dictation of his number one New York Times best-selling novel the Christmas box. The resulting album mentor ship effectually helps large professional recording career in 1999 could authentic stone angel music became the platform from which really is independent eventually going on to debut at number one on Billboard charts and solidifying a worldwide jeering following the pianist has impressively earned over 2 billion streams on Pandora loan, then in 2009 another miracle living in a Children's Hospital composing for and sharing experiences. The parents of children suffered from congenital heart disease could always notified it.

That heart had become available to belong to a young man with taking his own life after his family returned to Mexico. Normal functioning heart lies in Kardon's words like I had been driving an old truck all my life and that was all I then doctors gave the keys to a Porsche. I had to calm down a little bit. He choked my brain was receiving normal oxygen flow for the first time in my life and I was like computer rebooted to full power. Adding lower my body temperature for surgery. So many times throughout my life that after the transplant with my newfound energy.

I actually had to relearn my music clearly could all is still not path that his experiences had opened much like most likely integrate a variety as well as in charitable areas beyond music. But now, 10 years after the transplant cut off story continued to evolve as an artist, author and humanitarian's upcoming album. The building miracle which will be available for preorder. This number was inspired by JD Meadows biographical fictional novel based on real events and the artifacts from being born with only half a heart jeering a series of surgeries, which culminated in a heart transplant waiting for a donor heart pianist brother was tragically killed. Jacob will feature several award-winning guests including David Archuleta Teixeira done Thompson square young tresses Terry Glenn and more focused to be with you guys so through transition recently but want to restart your story to share with our listeners something about your upbringing.

Will you where windborne races latter-day St., and what will be God and religion play in early life question I grew up in Salt Lake City and you know I do genealogy. I still love doing genealogy. If I look at my ancestry. Every single person in my line came to Utah because of the church majority of my ancestry were, for example, a great-grandfather great great great father in Ireland and he said my father made me read the Bible way too much so he ran away ended up if I recall right, met this Scottish girl who introduced her to Mormonism and she and him got married and came you know across the way that our ancestors came across and that's the one story of many. My ancestors were in the Willie company they survived from Hanks rescued them and so John Taylor my great great great John Taylor, 48 years old, was introduced to my great great great grandmother who became his seventh wife Margaret young. She was 19 years old and so, everywhere you turn in my world was Mormonism and people been using the term Orthodox Mormonism lately to describe people who are very patriarchal people who are very involved find that to be an interesting way of phrasing that I just put in the lifestyle church is everything we have our purpose we know our mission. We know we know based on the narrative that was told us exactly what were supposed to be doing and everyone had strong even to this day. Strong testimonies of prophets.

When I came into the world.

In 1973.

My father just got a job by Harold B. Lee wanted a religion reporter and I may be a little off your but might what I remember my father got a job with the L which was the church owns new station so my father's job all growing up was to travel with the brethren and report back on the news everything that's going on. He was with Pres. Kimball in Israel when yours and had Memorial was dedicated. He was in the tomb with Pres. Kimball when he asked the question is this where Jesus was laid to rest at present, Kimball said it doesn't matter is not here and I love that response and then he's he broke the story in 1978 about the priesthood.

It would go to all were the males.

He was very involved in getting that message out to CVS CBS news and he was the one in book so and I idolized my father. I still do. I think my father is fantastic he comes from a pretty challenging childhood. He didn't have a father to teach him how to be a good priesthood father, and he's done an amazing job, so I have all the siblings. There's eight of us and everyone grew up in Odessa Bishop very involved real better Eagle Scouts before the age of 14. Scouting was a big part of everything all my brothers and I served missions my sister Rebecca served a mission and everyone married in the temple, except to two of us so 91 third so it was just a beautiful childhood and my parents. They provided the very best and it's ironic now knowing some of the things I know about how the church came to be that basically is it you know it's it's that grief that you experienced when you start to go wait a second there's a real problem right here and so it's it's a matter of you know experiences that we have in our life that lead us to where we are desperately in need of healing. We want God to come in and heal us, and I think most people that have left Mormonism have G and basically just been seeking what we've been told is that there is space available. There is joy, but I also feel that you have two types of people.

If you guys read the prodigal God by Timothy Keller.

That's one of the most important books for somebody who doesn't know about the Christianity that exist outside of Mormonism is what it does is it introduces the parable of the prodigal son. It was the only parable that Jesus never finished he left that question to us of what is the elder brother going to do and you have two types of people you have a son who wants his inheritance.

Now he wants the father to give him his portion so he can go out and explore.

He's a seeker is not rooted like the elder brother who is a moralist who does everything right because he knows he's going to get father's inheritance. Meanwhile, the prodigal son goes out you know the father has to sell a portion sell his share of the property.

The land decreases the value so when the elder brother finds out he's like what just decrease the value of my inheritance and the father is away the second year, inheritance, and the course, the younger brother comes back and all he wants the father just wants to be a slave to the father. Let me serve you.

Let me help you and that's his obsession is the father because he Artie squandered because we can't manage ourselves. We think we can but we all need a higher power to help manage our lives and the elder brother Christ leaves. That leaves that parable kind of in the hands of the Pharisees and the Sadducees of what will you do. Those of you that are moralist those of you that are doing everything right.

That's great but what about your brother, why didn't you go out to you so concerned, and what you've got going on and what you're going to receive. You want to meet the father. So both are wrong though moralist and the one that goes out and seeks and squanders. I kinda compared to moths and butterflies butterflies are really beautiful and there around in the day and everybody loves and everybody draws them moths come out at night. Moths have shorter antennas. They have a little bit further on that vacant fly around the darkness to get all the food, but they are so obsessed with the light.

But if they get too close to it. They die and so what I've discovered personally is that the moths among us struggle in organized religion because they are seekers and their passionate they're not like the elder brother, you can just do everything that is required of them because they are going to get exaltation. You know, so it's what about the elder brother and I tend to go hidden in organized religion.

They go after the people that are not in the family that there's people in the family who are hurting need help and when religion gets so big it's their summary growing pains of how do we help those that we consider misfits, outcasts, creative's moths. It's beautiful out. I haven't read the product prodigal God by Noah was a big influence on Michael right I read the book I was transitioning nose like man. What do you know I just sacrificed my salvation. You know that I read that book and it just really spell everything out like totally understood the gospel after reading that man like you always thought the older brother was righteous until I read I read Tim Keller's book on Michael. He wasn't righteous at all and want to go into the feast of the end because he was so upset with his father because he perceived them as being unjust. He couldn't stand that he was merciful to the younger brother after what he did. So yeah, it's deftly a powerful book. I recommend it to anybody. Frustrated, I love your love your analogy about the moths when I was when I was in the last area of my mission. It was kinda coming on spring and summer of 1999 in Budapest and it was hot and humid, amused out the door open to our balcony. There was no screen and so moths would do that you kill them on the ceilings and sisters.

But going after Angela and I got married I wrote a poem about that and and your home also attracted the flame and the bill will actually fly into written kind of thing in your analogy is just to discover my speed up the Palm Coast thinking along those same lines like, but why was I was I killing these creatures were so beautiful. You know the minimum and soon analogy to to misfits within within organized religion is out like up. Yeah, it's Joseph Smith was a like he was moths because he was so fascinating. Everything about them is just mind and then you have Brigham Young was the elder brother there so that story so interesting and so the prodigal God sat on my toilet for 10 years I was a was given to me by a friend of mine who was his name is still Crossway and steel was in a rock 'n' roll band and toward all over the world open for Cheryl Crow was created. Always guys I knew him in 2003 when I was working on faithful rep. I wanted to do a worship in 2005 I did that worship out and we had steel scene on it and everything I was doing on that album was worship Christian music that I loved and you know that the song on there that people all know is Redeemer. That's probably my most downloaded piece of music, but I met steel conversations because I was so Mormon and so pro the prophets that I love the prophets could have been around.

I know some, and it just it just so I thought he was such a wild but I loved how passionate he was about God and Jesus. I was like will you get. It's like it's like a truck for you and your addicted to it and you can't get enough and I'm like I like that he's like will read this gave me prodigal God. I put on the back of the back of the toilet under the book of Mormon and it was I think 10 years later about eight months ago I was given a copy by counselor counsels musicians in the Christian music scene and country are some of your natural that the companies the organization's supporters, field reporters, they were there to be available to somebody needed help. The Catholic Church, so he gave me this book that I started reading it was like this but this one steel give me Cytec steel is like to read it yet to get you your copy back and read that I read this one and my wife and I purchased what I loved about it was that it reinforced things that I believe that not all Christians believe and that is that there is a place to table for everybody and I feel and believe that were all going home. We just some of us might get there before others. But you know you know that analogy of how there's a table and there's a place at the table for you and pastors are big at promoting this this idea in the story that come to the tape you come to the table. You see there's a place for you and you're just so grateful that God did what he did to Christ and empowered you to be there in his grace is enough and you there and then the instrument so I feel the more I study the life of Jesus Christ through not just I don't just read the I read like eight different Bibles. I've been studying the that the court expect Thomas, which is the earliest known codecs that they have the Vatican just barely released that is online that you can read about 380 and it's got the Septuagint in it, but the Septuagint obviously you guys know is the earliest known tour and the Christians were using in the first second century for the five books of Moses, so, so I reach all this stuff and as I'm reading all this stuff.

I got to get to this table be so grateful you were there and that see that's the elder brother and me talking. I think I just get beat the table. I know I would be the table so that way to get that table and then we can recognize there's a lot of people that I just know we can be looking at Jesus and easy to look at as it is going to be like spoken. Let's recklessly tear down do whatever we have to do to go get him. Which of the elder brother's other brother would you associate yourself with all prodigal. I tried to be older brother 45 years, but I came out as a problem because I'm an artist, artist, and to be a little narcissistic just our made eye.

I came to a point my life to a series of a lot of personal tragedy tour. I don't care about exultation don't care about you know all these things that we've been promised powers to minions a list like I just want to be in the same vicinity and just watch Jesus do his thing. I don't want anything else I not even capable of managing my own life.

What I want to be a king. I want him to be the king. So is that basically saying that were not good enough to just be what the early people hoped and thought were promised to the revelations given to Joseph, so how did music come into your life. How did it soothe your soul with school see so always love music. I took piano lessons. It when I was eight I would say that as an 11-year-old I started listening to the radio and loved the you know the countdown night recorded on my boombox and I buy music by loud music and at age 16 I friend could play the piano. I'd sit down and try to figure out and play in New Age piano music was really popular at the time George Winston Yanni and you Yanni would flip his hair back, when we go to grow my hair like Yanni and play some cooler patient notes.

Maybe I'll get a girlfriend or something.

So I will know that music and I just couldn't figure out how to do it but then my friend Dave died in a car accident and easily play out so that living my parents piano. I just sat there trying to figure out life, but you see I been born with only half a heart surgery they want, and a lot of my life was evolved out of that there was a purpose that I was alive and present how to be on her love and there's a guy constantly preach Jesus and he gave me a blessing and a blessing told my parents I'd like to be a man which you are still and I survived that surgery so growing up it was you got blessed by an apostle here for reason, keep the commandments, and you prosper in the land famous Mormon scripture and the prosperity basically meant health and wellness, but we never associated them with dance like Joel O'Steen or some these other prosper gospel guys. It's more about you were born with a purpose and I love that because it's you know that's that's something that later in life when I met my wife work for Rick Warren who wrote purpose driven life resonated with me a great deal that we have a purpose lead.

I think purpose lead over purpose driven purpose led because we want to be lead. We don't to be driven so I basically just started playing and planning planning planning at a job in the Joseph Smith Memorial building and at the restaurant in the Nordstrom's people asked me bad CD I made sign of affection and then was asked to make Christmas box by Richard Paul Evans that led to doing the hymns and the human started just like everyone was on the mission bought the hymns. I was beyond my control. I just remember going to does your book and say what you people want and they said well he went him so I just made an album called Ince and that's what started selling in the church started playing the music, the LDS church or play music on the grounds and became synonymous with the mission life and people that are trying to get closer to the Lord during the week, but I noticed a trend when unit happened that majority the people that were buying the music were not and did not know anything about Mormons so I felt like I fell like I had a responsibility to use music as a teaching tool to bring people to Jesus. That was the agenda at the church bringing to Jesus first and then he'll leave them where they need to go as far as church every week Doug will be before we started recording the II didn't immediately recognize your name I'm probably insulting Breanna because she is a huge fan girl of your work, but I do remember your name immediately, but I was like man sounds familiar, though, and in our I listen to your problem all the time of my mission.

I remember listening to it at the MTC doing laundry to the laundromat. They have at the MTC. So yeah yeah Regina Dozier that that album did you like you like you she experienced Matthew, I mean it was great. You know, my was probably the hardest time in my life at the point, just because those is just difficult. I was very after learning the language like a barely people told me I could speak okay but literally when they would talk to me in French. It was just a bunch of gibberish know French is a very smooth flowing language in its how it was hard for me to parse out the words struck. I struggled for at least six months like you, I could pick out one word here that are out hear them say daughter or sister to be like oh sister like you know, do you know about our church. We love families like nothing so is a struggle and then you know like with companions you know it's it's it's it's it's it's a different experience living with someone all the time and getting along with people different personalities but I for like a man, but he will will agree. Usually when they talk about their missions.

As you grow a lot. You learn more about yourself and about how to be independent and how to be assertive and deal with tough situations and turn to God when you need that support. So I mean I have no known negative feelings about my mission. There was hard times, but I feel like God use that for 22 for his purposes. Love that. So true, so true, so in a sense, did anyone else went on whether mission experiences or poles interested yeah all yes I love my mission as well. The night in Budapest is beautiful. I spent most of my mission there. I do have a few couple stands outside of Budapest, one in a city commuter Taza which is in northeastern Hungary and one in what may rival Budapest is the most beautiful city of fiscal cited the call for some roasted is beautiful in southern Hungary right, right on the border and I will attempt to love hundred people have they been through a lot in their history in terms of being subjugated to two other peoples from you when when know the tricks came in in the mid-15th century and kinda try to overrun Europe, you know, Hungary was, right on the front lines than others of the book about the battle that the Council editor there in Hungary that is fastened and called what is in English.

I can remember, the English titled signature logo can vary in its the stars of the course. After that he got the Austro-Hungarian Empire where the Hungarians were really kind of stepchildren amount Empire amend no communism with with Russia after World War II something with them as a people have just been through so much and that I really identify with that. When I was there with M&Ms and really learn to love them because those experiences have come a long cultural memory hungry and so you see a lot of what I was I so saw a lot of older people who have been through the Communists in terms of the 1956 revolution the. Where they hope they were going to end within the freedom I didn't know that there were a lot of people elderly people who are just bitter towards God and so was it was a very interesting interesting mission to be there, but unlike Matthew noted there was something that God used with in my life to help and needs Christ wasn't.

I wasn't really a follower in the way that we should be when as a teenager and God will use my mission to bring the place so great. My wife is Slovenian so I've been over to Hungary quite a bit and I did a fireside three years ago to the state. There was a cool experience.

Good people for sure yeah that you missed.

I wish mission. Oh man my admission was fantastic.

You know, California.

It took a while to learn the language, but yeah I mean I met a lot of great people that was like super shy.

When I went out on my mission. Some just like I don't know what I'm doing to myself like she didn't revert out like talking to people, but I kind of older brother is what I would relate to him for sure somehow liked the structure and all the rules and all that stuff works out really well for me.

By the end of it. I just really like to go home and I spent probably four or five years having these vivid dreams. I was able to go back. I would wake up and oh I'm not on my mission anymore so I love every minute of it was. It was great. It was like an adventure. You know like oh my gosh about my own and doing all this crazy stuff.

I like having deep theological discussions with people and making those connections you know something I really missed when I came home use.

Don't have that same opportunity as post missionary true true the interesting you mention the dreams because I think everybody has these recurring dreams that their back on their mission or they have to go again. It's like being back in school. Yeah, those dreams of backing elementary school in a can opener middle school. I can open my locker combination and then you have the strange words like your missionary like oh I don't do it right this time. You know I won't have a Blockbuster card. I will detail this tepid stuff you in California to look for dirt roads to drive your Toyota Corolla on his report attracted the entire area twice.

Yeah, go scrape the reason I liked it is because you could study the gospel and and you have to focus on language and all my brothers speak Spanish. The ulcer Spanish-speaking and my brother lost all submissions and speak a language I never did. I never did. So it's like the I was able to study church history, and ironically I mission president was the manager church curriculum in the 90s he worked very closely with Bruce McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith early on, and he's the one the road, church history in the fullness of times and I loved him because I learned the narrative in such a powerful way and when you start to deconstruct the narrative later because of adjustment papers himself they reveal so much and people know that they know to read the paper to publish and put them out. There's only a couple guys that I can aid in women upset throw tantrums and leave so so but it's interesting because it's all there, and he was such use. Such a scriptorium that when we got to be zone of the month. He would set us down and unlock the book of Revelation for us based on what Joseph Smith Joseph Fielding Smith Sir McConkie at some of these other guys very popular. You know she can to dynamics and more medicine you have two different ideas and philosophies of church if the Talmage's and you have that the oil on to say the beach Robertson that the rigid grants totally different, totally different. Joseph Smith's Joseph Fielding Smith's and the Talmage is the the Irene's intellectual people that are in our questioning things primarily because they are recognizing from their colleagues that there's problems with some things in there. There concern is there and to me that's like if you BH Roberts go and call this emergency meeting with the first presidency about some of the problems that his colleagues at these procedures citing schools were studying no archaeology and anthropology, evolution only sizes that are considered taboo in her that time. Christianity for him to go call this emergency meeting you guys don't want talk about emergency meeting and in 1921 he wrote this is book about problems with the book of Mormon presented up to 12 right.

Basically, yeah. So basically you know he was one of the first PhD's in Utah. He had to. He had to get permission you have to get permission from the first pressing on the 12th to go to an Ivy League school back and it makes sense because we can't look at history through our lens. Today, we can't so back then that you tongs were still afraid of the big world out there because all the stories of the killings of violence and there was a lot of problems people just crossing the claims at problem. Even nonmembers crossing the plains had problems. It was just a wild time. You know was like deadwood. It was like a scene out of Deadwood. It was it was used was not the way we tend to look at it and think about it you know the stories of these cute houses with white picket fences.

It was the wild West.

You know there's a lot of fear so BH Roberts pretty much was the first row to get speech Jeannie comes back and all his buddies who is given a book moment you start to go away a second sciences are basically telling us that there's no horses there's no these vegetables. This this this and this and how did the Indians come up with over a thousand different dialects in such a short period of time. If you know and so you start to see this major shift in 1921, you start to see a law firm come about, protect the church and then in the 80s when BH Roberts writings were able to finally come forward because the family sued and was able to get those. His writings came out and pointed out a lot of these challenges and problems, but by then they done such a good job of preparing the church to just kind of ignore all that stuff really reinforce the narrative of the first vision and have a book of Mormon was come about, but 1985, Mark Hoffman, all these writings started to come forward out of obscurity and the intellectuals sought is a serious problem if they really tried to help the church understand these issues presently was deceived by Markoff and ironically I taught Mark Hoffman's kids. I was a young men's president over his son and helped him on a mission to Germany so I knew the family and my father was involved in the story, and he was reporting the story. I member going back to Kirtland with my family and not for you and my dad as a journalist was telling the LDS church that the salamander letter was a fraud at that church was using the salamander letter which basically said that Joseph Smith's son would become the prophet, and there's actually a fact it's a historical fact that Joseph Fielding Smith, his cousin, Joseph Smith, the third you know they got until those arguments in the 1880s over polygamy because Joseph Smith's son was told by Emma that there was no polygamy, so he set out to try to defend his father's legacy is even his father in that famous discourse told everybody in 1843. There is no doing the answer. Joseph you get you get into Joseph Fielding Joseph Smith the third's mindset as a boy he six years old. He's taken to liberty gel. It's wintertime is trying to understand why instead gel is told that his cousin was a newborn baby. Joseph Fielding Smith had also been taking the jail by his mother Mary and blessed by Hiram and then Lyman white was in the jail with Joseph and all the guys said that when they brought Joseph, son Joseph, third, that they laid hands on him and Joseph the third did pronounce him to be the year to like defiantly likely 95 Abraham and Isaac to be the next prophet of the church and then fast forward when he's 11 years old and a red brick store Lyman white again records and John Taylor was there was not any of this report. Cindy Riggin was reported that his son got a second blessing, a double confirmation that he would become the present, the church, so he's 11 years old and he knows this and that his father goes off and gets killed and to the best of his knowledge is an 11-year-old. He never sees any polygamy you never sees any polyandry.

Most do not do. Never did. They kept under wraps until Brigham Young publicly announced the revelation by researchers later and so you have all these challenges with you know, and I've always tried to look it life to other people's lands of what they have experienced what they're feeling. I have such compassion for Joseph's. Smith's son, because he was told so many lies in his mother tried to protect tried to try to even preserve her husband, her ex-husband's legacy by saying there's no polygamy, and she knew, so he goes out to Utah Joseph.

The third is the prophet of the reorganized Church and starts telling people that he you know that his father is no click and Joseph Fielding Smith goes out in interviews 40 to 45 women were married to the prophet Joseph Smith that are at the time, now married to Brigham Young and get sworn affidavits that they were so if you imagine being just filling Joseph Smith son cueing that finally realizing his father is not who he was but a ministry and goes back to Naboo and eventually to Independence, Missouri dots mean it's tragic. It's so tragic and also the stories that affect me in such a profound way than like something's not right, but it's in every organized religion, there are problems and you can take any religion and you know which is why the Savior.

I believe that's why he was again he came and fulfilled the need for the loss in the prophets because he'd given them so many opportunities prophets with priests you know they had. As Paul talks about in Hebrews 7 talks about the addict in the priesthood and the and the need for the erotic priesthood and how they've got trying to put these people in these people kept failing and failing failing and failing to file finally sends Christ to fulfill the law and to usher in the dispensation of grace to where anyone who is a believer in Jesus Christ is now part of the church and we are members of one of the largest churches in the 3 million Christians and when we we we talk about you know all about the gathering. What about this in the coming Japanese longtime's daily Christ comes and encounters people and brings them in like fish in the church is growing and growing and getting bigger and bigger and ironically I believe a lot of Latter Day Saints are part of the church. Note that I stuff that's good stuff that I attended was on that but my lips those that are my story. You asked me whether I thought I was a Christian before I left LDS church or after a fight.

If I look back at my life and chart where where I believe God was active in working in my life. There's no question that I think I was done before I left LDS church. I think I've reached a point of of realizing my helplessness without Jesus. And so I know I place my my point being born again before I left. Yeah, I think that I think there are a lot of Latter Day Saints one morning and Christians. They have relit because you know them by the fruits you know them by their fruits.

They are the most Christlike and they know that Jesus is the only way and that he's provided enough is enough. They're not even worried about all that other stuff because there's so sure in their knowledge of Christ because he's encountered them and pick them up and I believe that he keeps people where they need to be for certain reasons, which is why probably plucked you out long before to tutor you to mentor you to guide you to where you are able to be, you know an asset for him with all the talents you've been given the gift you been given to bring even more people to Christ. God's sovereignty is so supreme but I recognize that my life so yeah so that's a question that people ask me a lot to you know the just the law, the Carmi and say hey do you believe Mormons are our Christian that's the tough question that it's like what it's not about what religion you and so it's not for me to say it's about your relationship with Christ you trust him fully for your salvation. You know, but you know anybody anybody could be an ice.

I agree with you Bob called a lot of Latter Day Saints are born-again Christians said, jumping here, you contact about your your mission a little bit knows life like for you when you came off of your mission.

It was with marriage and family and calling some things like that. I was all in. I loved it. I loved I was probably the biggest advocate. You could be for the church and I devoted my entire life to it and I had surgery is that infant had a fork at age 13 Tamils died and I've had a lot of near-death experiences I've known Christ. I was 13. As I I was obsessed with the afterlife because I was going to go there any any day now with this bad heart so I II could feel him and his presence and his love around me and when I had to go back to you later for reconstructive surgery. There he was again right there in that moment him wasn't the father wasn't use him and I could feel it and I have dreams and I would use to do these document for my mission and I had to go get a pacemaker replaced because the battery was dead, and so I remember going to the hospital and I was on the gear on the day operating table and they were trying to bring me back from just a simple procedure that are Checking my heart pressure. Everything, and I started suffocating and I couldn't breathe and I thought I was dying and I remember being I was being back begging me and he was in that moment that I my mind went right to the cross and I saw Christ standing not on the platform that he had his legs on the sides of the cross with the nail going through his ankle through the wood how to the other side with something screwed onto his feet so resulted in, and then he had he said he was up here with some rope there was a nail in his wrist and one in his hand and for me that was like in that moment I was suffocating. He was suffocating. I was suffocating was trying to figure out the whole scenario.

The purpose of life and I knew that if Christ suffered and hung on that he wanted me to hang onto and so I kept working with the medic and told me was two hours of breathing exercises until I finally came out, came back from the dead, and it was because of Christ in the vision of the cross. So I've always from that day forward seen. The cross is extremely valuable versus the got and I know the garden is essential and important and we went there we don't know if that is where the process began, but it is where you start the prayer to the father and then back up on the cross so point is I have that relationship with him early on and everything after my mission was I just wanted ice wanted to help people had their hearts healed want to make music as a resource for God so Jesus can come in and healed. I just happen to be a member of the Latter Day Saints church and I I've never really been outside of Utah. I didn't I didn't travel to seeing things that were so spiritual and significant to make me go, we don't have them on the gifts of the spirit and love.

We don't have a monopoly on so many think it's not until I started to travel in my eyes began to, you know that Paul talks about the veil of her eyes it up until then I had every time I heard the gospel had a veil over my face as the New Testament says when he came to Christ. There was, I knew Christ so I just began you notice using music to think I had asked you firesides because of my heart problem set that out and I probably spoken to you add up the audience probably 10 million Latter Day Saints so most people probably heard it again again again but I would suspect, about 10 million people that are Latter Day Saints heard on my firesides. Usually all about Christ heals our hearts for travel with Paul Evans from virus is I did early on with Rick because he asked me to write music for his book the Christmas box is on the relay. Also some fireside here in Cincinnati – was probably 2007 or a timeframe, probably warmer than them. I member countries Cincinnati with Richard document was that it was like 9897.

That was before the four that so Richard was my mentor or advertising and marketing and he was one to give me that opportunity that album where I had a couple minutes to go in the in's record was as good a jump in their real quick to just you talking about what the cross. It really resonated with me because I guess the point of why transition was where I saw the power of the cross myself and I arose at the cross was a temple. Basically, you know that Christ was on their vicariously on my behalf and and I she was really touched, reading about your your story. Getting a heart transplant and and what that was like for you and it kind of drew a parallel to the gospel for me and I just it's always out there like your thoughts on it but kind of thinking about how Christ and the waves is our donor. You know that he she went there and he gave us his his righteousness, and as long as were trying to perfect ourselves. It's kind of like reparative surgery for problem is just not really going away but them when we accept Christ grace. It's like he's donated that the new heart to us spiritually on I just hadn't gone that parallel so I was reading that story. It's it's beautiful that it that you see that because I was waiting for the transplant is a difficult time. I had a three-year-old and I married a girl who I'd known since I was in high school were very close, but was very hard on our marriage, not just transplant. We had a lot of miscarriages and poems and we the two type of Latter Day Saints where it's like to positive magnets think we Just and but we were like best friends, but we just couldn't like the great married couple and so then we went through the transplant. She thought I was going to die. She's a nurse so she seriously thought like you are you gonna die moment died when she was little, so I don't hold that against her.

It was more of. I need somebody tell me you can be okay, but she was a realist and I had to climb she would change my bandages was a beautiful experience. The two of us had. Then her daughter, sacred experience, but when I was waiting for my transplant.

My younger brother served his mission. Spain came home from his mission and said I think I'm done. I think the churches the beginning of the Catholic Church and been in Spain I've seen what happens in families fall apart in any way Seattle these other intellectual challenges. He was an ecological geneticist and at the time the church was kind of against evolution even though we know majority the 12 agree with the evolution and the whole concept of all that stuff and I think it fits within Christianity there still a lot of Christians that don't but that's topics that are relevant to how to be a good person and so I go through this thing and my brother dies while I'm waiting for my heart. He had a mental breakdown was killed so it was a phone call today. That happened everyone knew that my father was a journalist and so I came across the feed on queso radio that the sun so-and-so had died on my answering machine at home so people thought it was me, so I heard all these messages on the machine of people giving their condolences to my wife that I died so I got to hear what people actually thought of me so I have time to greet my brother. I just kept on and finally, my younger brother brought Craig, who is sick great hard-working good man and he gave me a blessing and I like blessings. I think they're very valid. I don't think it matters what faith herein.

Anytime you pray over someone put hands on them. It's beautiful and I think it's acceptable like the widows might. He basically said in that blessing because of my organ donor and we do know that would be because of him and his sacrifice and the sacrifices family makes your to be able to live longer, but because of Jesus Christ, who voluntarily lay down his life. All of us will live forever.

He's the greatest organ donor spiritually, physically, and when God says change your heart. I took that very serious.

So not only is my written change literally, but he's been changing it spiritually over the last 15 years. Good observation because that's it's totally true. That's what he is. He is a heart changer beautiful 20% in the poem. Very touching and tender memories.

The plaintiff or the so I came across across a post of yours on fit under Facebook. She recently where you wrote quote over the past started.

My life is dramatically shifted away from Mormonism towards Christ. Growing up I believed in him and knew him because I relied on him desperately. With every illness I give God the credit for guiding my medical team on raising it from the dead temporarily like Lazarus and fixing the through organ donation. Jesus change my heart literally inventions them are spiritually these past few years." So alluded to that journey. What what has that journey been like how to begin what what is got done in your life over the past decade that has brought you to this moment of sharing your faith transition publicly. I recently transition from tradition to new tradition is not easy, cycling through divorce.

I think it's very very challenging for people like me who have experienced divorce who are misfits in a way because we are creative's. It's hard to understand us and it's hard to to feel normal. Within the church because it's such a family centered thing and I believe it's the most beautiful organization on the planet. But the blueprint of what they're doing now is something I was waiting for 15 years ago I had been in.

I'm still wrapping my mind around it. I you know, it's more of what Christ does in here and you can explain it. There's no words you just have to go you feel compelled to go and you don't want to necessarily change but you have to for your own survival. Mentally, because when I went to the transplant.

I never in my wildest dreams that I would get divorced and going through that process of divorce I ended up having this discipline disciplinary counsel and I was able to use section 42. In my defense. Anyway was a testimony of Christ. You can't get excommunicated for anything you can get this or that and it's tragic because if you know your scriptures. You can control court and control the outcome. But those that go in there, unaware of the doctrine that was laid down in the defense of the sinner they just thrown out one of the things that really threw me off was I don't know anywhere in in in the Bible where they held the court to get rid of somebody of the church. There's nowhere in the New Testament where Jesus says that accounts Judas he said go do what you do. He never said hey guys we got all the court right now and disfellowshipped Judas, and anything ago and do what we need them to do.

Even when Paul know they have all these councils units decide the next one of the brethren are, however, that's all formed. But there's never counsel to to try the worthiness of an individual of a child and granted you have to protect the church because it's a corporate entity from the walls. The priest then you have to publicly say we don't affiliate with this guidance.

Leading this so there's so many different did not dynamics and philosophy around what to do in the situations but I found the church court system not be a righteous act that it's deeper it it it damages families.

Further, in my opinion because when the guys you go to church with are not professional therapists and their giving you advice based on what they feel is revelation in your trusting that I got some of the worse advice when I was going through my divorce I had stake presidents tell me they're just learning how to love their wives as their wife's been meaning to them or you know life is not easy. You gotta fix all this you can you can fix it.

You can fix it.

You can fix it. Not once did anyone say that the Savior took care of it. And there's he took care of it or take care of it, and in Mormonism. It's more they say he took care of it. But it's he'll take care of it after you do these things that we feel you need to do.

There is power in knowing you are redeemed and loved. That is more powerful and that is the motivation I started to realize that skinny make me want to go to the sanctification process because the sanctification process is pretty much faith in Jesus Christ. Repentance and then the cycle you want to be a good person you want to keep Pam which want to be like Christ. There is no motivation. There's very little motivation. That's unique to do this sin. That's it's it's like just reversed its because you have exaltation hanging over you, and you might not get the full 100% light bold you know you hear hear hear your ear falling short falling short then you got guys come out making excuses like that's not exactly what they mean after all you can do and no grace. After all you can do famous Brad Wilcox message. I love Brad Bretz fantastic. He's telling everybody about the grace of Christ.

It's a hint it's a hint of the second 20%, what lightbulb of what's available when you actually pull your head out and the veil is moved from your eyes.

You see Jesus for who he really is, which is he's on your side he's on your team. He will give you everything he's got care about that. He just wants you use what's your one you so I got countless experiences after the prayer to the transplant working with steel and other Christians on the songs of praise album loved worship music I just loved it.

I know it's redundant it's I'm in the music business, so I know how music manipulates and a lot of worship music is keywords that we used to sell product and so you have a lot of Christian artists that create these experiences with the pastors there very beautiful rights that you can take. You could feel the love God, but in the long term. One of the challenges I have right now Christianity is when crap hits the fan is coming to rescue. It's great. We always want Christian churches and worshipful life. But when crap hits the fan, because you rescue so that's the kind of Christianity that Mormonism has correct that's what that's what boggles my mind is the quality of care, unless your leisure homosexual or you know getting better at that Saints, but you know I haven't been enough churches are plugged in enough to see that kind of care that the Pioneer system created in just looking after each other each other and that that's the gospel during the week as you guys know of the Christian church out there that comes to you during the week that's one of things I think a lot of Mormons believe struggle with is that nobody's knocking on their door. There's some truth in their way.

I have experienced some some love like that from the Christian church we attend shortly after we left, I was so sore that a friend of mine just bases is encouraged encouragement in this podcast to fruition, but the first time I walked into your Christian church and coming up to know people are going down to pick up my daughter from from children's church and she was down there checking children out and she saw me know. For the first time the sender since we met at a Wednesday night Bible study and I mean just came up to me and you have dinner. The biggest hug Bella big. I am 6 foot seven and Jason Jason's probably all of 510. So it probably looked really funny but just that embrace from from a brother in Christ was amazing, amend your my wife had a health issue not long after that and Jason's wife and some others did like like letters instead of the signed up for mill no plan for meals to to us for a week and sourcing back up the know on my father-in-law passed away last year were coming up on the year.

November 23 battled cancer for four years and as I saw there. My mother-in-law's Baptist Church rally around her, both during his illness and and and afterwards so it's just there, but you writers, but something about about what the letter said faith. It is beautiful. It's so same experiences when you talk about where you have your community of friends within the churches in the support but when you show up to church. It's always welcome it. For the first time and they spend 15 minutes doing the same thing every week I get I get that there's just this. I think I think the thing with the Latter Day Saints system is our ancestors and our people are just really just good people everything they been through everything they thought just knew how to rely on each other and that kind of tradition passed down and more organized by the looking after each other. Obviously really setting the beginning was to conceal gossip. But it evolved into this amazing organization.

So the people. The people in the way they responded neighbors.

For the most part, for the most are some of the most Christlike on the planet and and I can't even though I the problem with the narrative that continues to be propelled that most priesthood recognize is falling apart and needs to be restructured.

The vast majority what's happening is I and I talked to a lot of Christian friends. I don't if you guys have had the same conversations we see the Latter Day Saints moving more towards Christianity in the sense that God knows the hearts of God knows the hearts of that machine and what is possible and I'm not a pessimist optimistic. Try to think like house you can use this for the greater good for his purposes. Everything on the planet. He uses for his glory is purpose is value not to bring people to and churches need to come together right because I mean it's getting pretty crazy and it's beautiful to see the gathering in this possible dispensation of grace church is starting to work together. Even Latter Day Saints and years ago. The Catholics were considered Christian yet coming to you guys from the music world.

Some of the Gospel music Association so there's poets and prophets. Poets of the guys that are down with the people and going through a lot of crap and then we write about it in the prophets pick up on it because the people are singing the song and the profits go on praying get information on Martin Luther King Lincoln. These are profits. These are incredible things to change society for the better with Christ in their heart and Christ motivated all, so I just see so many churches you know when we get together at the gospel music Association events the award show why was it last last year.

All the artists you like it so good, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholics, and a lot of you say me and this guy guy, this woman. It was like real world Christians and we never once said on your doctrine and your doctrine and it was like let's focus on the big picture just being nice to children loving each of the two great commandments because didn't pulsate. Whosoever loves has fulfilled the law.

He echoed what Jesus was saying, so really just comes down to first emulate the Savior truly sanctified. We just everyone. Additionally, judge says it is interesting when especially with like he said with the world as it is nowadays a lot of social issues going on that people are very aware of that's at the forefront of all the media. Another looming right now I've got the you know the lockdown and everything is going on in it. I think the doctrine is. I personally think the doctrine is important. We can just put it push all under the rug right and say we know were all the same, but the same time we can still stand with people. Despite her disagreements and say here's a common cause. We can all over comers are a common goal. We can all work towards and I think, and I agree with you I think that's I think it's important that on some that all level, even despite her disagreements, we can all come together and for for the good of society, especially now that we see there's a lot of push to remove any kind of religion from the public sphere from politics from the educational system that I think there is there is some value there in saying incoming together and saying we spare differences, we still agree on many things in terms of morality in terms of, you know how we should teach our children to raise a mentor belief system so but Bianca rambling but you think this is the prosperity gospel seen Lex Chandler Princess dice brings together nice, a little pessimistic, but at the same time it reveals why it's so important to just focus on the statements is that is all reason Christ through my research study opinion. Christ came was because of love and then to teach us to everything else is all around eating and helping to do that so that's why the doctrine aspect of it. I used to be really concerned about that, but it's just a consistent thing for testament.

If you love means that humans your neighbor as much as you love yourself. At this every time everyone's a narcissist. It's now Galileo would've set the world doesn't revolve the sun doesn't the world doesn't revolve around whatever the world revolves around us and he would incorrect love lefties counters everything Christ encountered the misfits that people obsessed with how things are supposed to because they read Scripture did not understand Scripture because they wouldn't treat the Samaritan woman and they would treat the leper with respect. You know, and granite.

Christ can go up and touch (market leprosy in the Kaiser like we don't know intimate, so every encounter Jesus had was with person so different they were mops. So for me that teaches that a lot of the doctrinal stuff is important but it's when it comes down to how we treat people and who he wants. We have no power. You know there's if there's a saying I don't talk a lot but there's just story. I love that explains religion versus God.

A group of people go up to the pearly gates and there's Paul, Peter, and their checking people and has two witnesses and I show me your signs and people didn't.

But then Paul expired music here really know you know how all these people getting into heaven, and so KJ's case. James, can you take couple guys. Luke Timothy met you guys want the premise of heaven. And please tell us how he went think there's a leak tunnel what they're doing. They're not supposed to be here.

They don't know the signs and tokens on so meanwhile they walk around the premise to come back like three years later because it's there so and they come back in there like United related we found Jesus. He was on the other side throwing people up over into heaven over the walls. So I love that story because when the apostles are you making lists and the pastors in the precinct priestesses and everybody going down the checklist. Jesus is sneaking people in and so I like the analogy because it's just it's the Jesus I know that I've come to love understand because there's no orphans in God's kingdom known as everyone is welcome.

If they're not at the table. Let's go get that. I think there's definitely a challenge for for us as followers of Jesus to to recognize that if we believe that the salvation caused by grace alone through faith alone, and that that gift of a new heart. That regeneration comes from God is not because of anything we could do to please him as were all were all in need of that that new heart. If we recognize that. I think there's there's a there's a challenge to us because sometimes we want to say I think God is working. There were not working here no unfortunate were fallible. We don't know that if someone looked at me 15 years ago. They might've been certain that that I was still to be lost forever. United I lost the conservative Orthodox belief in Mormonism. Towards the end of my mission and took a detour through dialogue and some stone Mormonism and really thought I would stay there for the rest of my life and really what I was letting me was towards agnosticism and pessimism and in disbelief and just about everything but God reached down and brought me out about God reached down and then showed me Jesus in a way that was was clear and beautiful. Not enough talk about that on my my episode of a podcast. You know the dream that I had of Jesus and of the way the bedroom is connected to us particular place that I encountered in Budapest and the challenge to us not to be too dogmatic about where we think God is and isn't working with on that ticket so all you are talking about the prosperity gospel, and I tend to think that the prosperity gospel's probably the biggest threat that Christianity faces from within its own walls because any Christ said to take up our cross and follow him and to me that's a very different message that the prosperity gospel which is you know you name it and you claim it, and God wants you to be wealthy and happy in sight.

While Paul was writing these letters from prison. I think that that that that gospel weakens us as a body of Christ, and that it should be called out. You're not just to say like oh you're wrong for the sake of saying you're wrong but I think if it weakens weakens our our faces of the body of Christ.

And it's not pointing to what Christ actually taught that it should be.

It should be expose… My my opinion on that. But yeah, I do worry about the prosperity gospel quite a bit myself very, very popular, and it's the recent federal government wants to charge taxes because when you have parishioners sacrificing finances to get their pastor nice but you know that's something weird. I do like that 10% sister that the LDS church as I think that it's I do believe in tithing.

It's important that I I think that you.it's really up to talk to a specific given the church.

You can choose organizations that you feel God is working through to type to wish you generous but yet prosperity gospel is such that it's the pyramid scheme do this and this and this rise in prominence and we get carried away. I think I in the Latter Day Saints church. You can carry rain that because men love data calling means they don't they don't have to put the kids to bet they don't have to clean up after the dishes think there's a lot of women and one of the main things that led me away is the treatment of the treatment of homosexuals and that's where you know, we may have different ideas on things that I believe God wants everyone to be happy and everybody deserves a covenant relationship because that controls the morality it also allows people to achieve full medication, so it's tough. I feel like women are the most powerful, most important creatures on earth, and that men are nowhere where they are and yet men run the world and in Mormonism. It's tough because early on.

Women were just so many different stories. They levitated the levitated. You know all of that stuff just frustrating to even think about and learn about and then to see that there's no position for women to really lead in church is beyond me because Christ surrounded himself with more women than any historical book of that time.

So revolutionary at first woman to ever experience mortality Z the first ever experience immortality witness that is not the mother of Jesus gets no respect by the Christians.

I just I'm a big believer that until we give women more prominent role in life and in things that this world is going to continue its goal is a lot of people, women trust the same time.

Yeah but at the same time.

If you know what I'm saying there's we suppressed the talents and gifts of women and and I've seen my family, but I've seen sacrifices made by women breaks my heart. Having the meal ready.

Having the castle ready cash. There's enough might cater it guys at your appointment off the hook Gatorade or do something. Get involved so that's that's that's just a minor thing frustrating SASE doubts during your mission. All doubts like that the church may still be the church, wondering if it would be worth it, leaving you know I just I baptized my daughter about four months ago. That was the last hat I had to baptizer three times and that was that straw that broke the camels back because that's not the Jesus I know, he doesn't look for failure. He looks for the heart of what happened.

So when you have to get to the technicalities of the gospel think it's so absurd so ridiculous search patriarchal intrusiveness that I just can't keep supporting that behavior. And yet I love the person who had me do that with all my heart and the biggest thing obviously when you leave this people you're more worried about you worried about the feelings of your words and I built a whole career were there's Latter Day Saints that have strengthened their testimonies of the prophet because the music so I have a responsibility. That's why the post that I did was carefully thought out because I don't. I still believe the Church of Jesus Christ. Latter Day Saints is evolving into where Jesus wants it to go. II haven't given up on that church as not a Christian church. I believe they are Christian church. I believe there are no safe and misogynistic church and when we repent. The church needs to repent from the polygamy. Landry needs to set the record straight with the narrative about Joseph because you have summary church is on the grounds of Christ and Christianity. I feel that church is redeemable in allowing Christ to be the center instead of controlling the center is that makes any sense mimics it makes perfect sense and we were just talking about with with that baptism to him in baptism is the very symbol of resurrection and us being having this new life and then them putting technicalities on that is just basically saying that you have to be perfect in order to to be born again and that's that's crazy. The wording of the worthiness. Are you ready to go to. Are you worthy to bless the sacrament. Nobody is only one good being and that's Jesus Christ absolutely say were not worthy undervalues his sacrifice in entire purpose. So to say someone's not go to heaven. You just basically drove another nail in. Everybody qualifies and Jesus will literally love the hell out of all this analogy of fire and brimstone fires a purifier is a great song from Leland's new worship record.

He says that God is trimmings to go and this fire is hell, damnation, editing the Revelation. A lot of Christians believe it is a literal place. I believe it's a process of love when someone is loving you so much. Eventually you give in and your unit, except that I love you to take that long ago, my gosh, what you looking so him through his whole process of eternity and skimpy beautiful encounters of Jesus put his arms around his insane you are amazing.

You will wonderful you are incredible. I love you. Thank you for being here when you mean so-and-so doesn't like you. Hey so-and-so, get over here but you know so it for me. Everyone is redeemable and we see time through this, like, well, everyone is to get to the top of the mountain at the same time. Please, it's a process for you. I'm never climbing Mount Olympus. After my transplant Isaac go climb a mountain. I was the last line people Got they got to the top.

I had a heart transplant. So it's like I got I got a get there.

Everyone was waiting for me to get up there. They only some of the kids went up to three times bitterly experience parts and they come down there like you view is amazing but you know I was enjoying my time walking up with my father and I almost didn't want to get to the top as I was enjoying the time with my phone and then we got to a point restored.

I couldn't get up any further. He grabs my hand the polls so I went to that refiner's fire of never being able to hike because I wasn't worthy. I call effects that are Carlson. I got a new heart and I could send that mountain to some people. My father was there.

My father grabbed my father to my father stayed with me and we got to the top together so that's how I see like this whole process of being born to all the beautiful things God wants to do free storage is on. This is definitely some beautiful full imagery within the pages of the Bible in terms of God restoring and no one at one of the challenges is a is a former latter-day St. been trying to preach the gospel to Latter Day Saints is that, as you've noted there for latter-day sister a lot of distinctives right.

Joseph Smith is a stint of the book of Mormon is a distinctive document covenants the pearl of great price. The whole idea of exultation temples. There's there's a lot.

Just a lot of distinctives that Latter Day Saints own and resume with associates are rated born and raised Latter Day Saints. What I found when I came out and became a member of a Christian denomination, the one I belong to is an independent the part of the independent Christian churches/churches of Christ obsolescence that Alexander Campbell noted up with without men for Mormon history book so there's there's a lot of a lot of early Latter Day Saints Parley P. Pratt, among others, came from the Campbellite movement is a lot of interplay between the Campbellite movement and early Latter Day Saints teaching and for that reason.

For that reason, among some Christians, members of of denominations that are better have their history in the Campbellite movement kind of Judas as outcasts for various doctrinal positions that are generally taken with the with the Metro mission and so I attended the seminary and a message and degree from from society Christian University, which was associated with with other independent Christian churches and sort of undefined or study the history there, and assume that there's there's certainly distinctives their as well.

And one thing that I noticed in diving into Facebook groups that are that are related to my my own particular Christian denomination is that there are people there who can get really hung up on distinctives and that can be challenging within the Christian faith. One of the things that that the shares as three of us is that none of us belong to the same Christian tradition among the Campbellite, but I wouldn't say I'm a Campbell item, Christian right, but Matthew is a reformed Baptist Michael is something his ministry.

As Mr. put but we have these conversations on podcast don't always agree on everything doctrinally, but what were what were united on his Christ. Christ saves in Christ alone saves and that that allows us to have a level of unity that I think there's there's room for that within within broader Christianity and the news touched on Paul a couple times during our discussion site that in various ways that that there's a big opportunity and I and agree with the huge opportunity within Christian and Christianity in general for discipleship within churches and by discipleship I don't mean a lot of times of the churches discipleship means kind of indoctrinated people in our in our distinctives right in London by discipleship is the exchange opportunity to teach people the gospel which is all of us are helpless about Christ and therefore let's go out and bring others to Christ. So I think that the church is doing a good job having people that I think secondly I'm with you when people leave any particulars, they do become at cost because they've been let down in the day they were told to have good friend of mine who is actually the author broken miracle JD Neto is from Brazil belong to this massive mega church in Brazil, but he has a different ideas so they threw him under the bus visa when it's been writing my story and we've had so many discussions in writing this book because because religion play such a role in everyone's lives, whether they want to admit it.

And there's so many people been heartbroken because of the way they been treated within a church and I think we have to recognize that no church people are far and that's where we fear a Christian. I think the biggest I think it's a horror responsibility to be the Christian and overseas benefit of the doubt of others and sees the value in others the way Christ actually did because he approached those that were not those that were not doing what Peter is to question him all the time you will be doing it all and even Timothy to Paul and to Paul and constantly asking why are you waving credence to Jesus with Wendy doing with the so silly because life is too short and wrong the sandbox together a strange essay I made you different you know all the different flowers and now I don't know which I posted which lowers the one and only true flower to give to your wife. You know know we could come up with the same flour used mostly roses. Because of this and this and this intuits because of this, and this is not even decide and it's kind like someone so beautiful you want to give your wife a flower. Jesus was sent anyway. Flowers, that's great, but we need to pick and choose and what I don't want to do is say will want to church because you can say that about any church that church because they don't have Christ residence in terms of him saying you know what, that's not right. This is correct.

This is not correct.

This is that it's just all a matter of faith and trust. So for us to keep for us to even try to explain our our old faith to people we have to be really cautious because it is our God put us into that area reason God put us into that for reason we have to ask, why did God do this to us when this is why what is contrary to teach is why is he processing us through this system. And maybe it's because he's got to get us to where we just hold on one second I get a drink and not cottage you guys.

Yeah, Matthew. Not that great. Now identify men cut it.

Michael effort for history is Z comes up Mr. Pip's we we recorded late nights, usually on sunset on Fridays and the Saturday morning sabbatical past midnight 1 o'clock so we always joke that when he's in a good mood is Dr Pepper but then around midnight 1 o'clock. He turns in the Mr. Pip Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing since but since leaving you guys were honoring the word wisdom before or did you have your first like copier.

After you left, or is that one of the things you did that drove the spirit away. Hello just I alluded to the fact that I wasn't really a good teenager and so that was was during high school, skipping seminary to go to Denny's to have breakfast with my friends and drink coffee during third period release time and get to the point of my summer teacher have them in the class present to get me to come to class. Well, you probably church history word sent copies of sexual stimulant then did I'm leaving because I have school to meet some people tried coffee in high school because I was gonna say Wales was active but I kept falling asleep in calculus and I hated the taste of coffee Oedipal you know it was like one part coffee to like 10 parts cream and two parts sugar so you know you know I did that I was like I should just drink Coca-Cola or something because that's technically not against what was the right church came editing in 2013. As for 2014 and said go to school but that's only reason why a broke out in like the taste of it because I just tried to stay awake yeah yeah the most rebellious thing that I did was drink postal you were set on the neighbor Sanka. That's worthy of outer darkness.

I think the thing that's unforgivable sin is thinking postal.

What's interesting is Larry Pallotta lottery since I talked to that of left they felt more guilty about drinking coffee and having sex kind of things. It's like if you look at the graph of how many times imaging coffee conference versus Jesus Christ you know or how many times they mention subdistrict was like I try not to laugh about it but it's like she's a lot of people it's all good. Yeah, I remember like the longest time and not even for several months up till if the church is like, you know I still want to be like a social pressure you know as I got I don't want to leave the church look like. I just wanted become anti-or ex-Mormon just so that I could, you know, get drunk or drink all the coffee you wanted such artists to stick to that and then over time you not as I was sitting in understanding Scripture is try to be a good Meridian and read and understand and I thought no, really there's nothing in Scripture against any of those things you know you know like Jesus drank like he said he less whiny drink wine so I said whatever comes it's not what is put into the mouth of what comes out of that's corrupt is what I've been digging into Paul issues that's good. It's it's it's funny the way we we would beat ourselves up, though. What I was. So we left in May 2010 and May 20 is our anniversary, so we had gone out to an Italian restaurant for anniversary and we had yet made the decision to leave and my will know my wife is like you want have a glass of wine with me.

She comes from a background before joining Mormonism where she drank and so she's I do have a glass of wine for anniversary an remember just sitting there like sweating physically, sweating, worried that someone from award might wander in and the chances of that in Cincinnati are pretty low, just given the demographics and no one from Samir sweating just worried that can also listen to coming to but I enjoyed her so remember there is any fly cancer from Cincinnati that I dated. You would probably is a lot of steady yeah I know it's interesting the whole dynamics of which can can't do in things you worry about him as a teenager your sense of how far can I go you know so many of these things there. Such pressure. There's enough pressure as it is in our world for teenagers but you had on top of that, it's interesting and my daughter and I was 14 is in seminary and I love what she's learning. And we have a lot of conversation and shield shall say things to me like you, I don't know about Joseph Smith or something off. I said will focus on Jesus read look for all the Scriptures about Jesus and really soak that in and she says I just I don't I haven't felt this. I haven't felt the spirit in a long time. When I doing wrong. I said will you want to feel it. She was yeah I want to feel it.

I said okay let's close her eyes and I just started describing the cross and Jesus on the cross and you know it's a pretty gory thing when your teenager about a man hanging on a cross where she started to feel the spirit was.

I started reading to her some of the Scriptures in the New Testament about Him Taking Our Pl., Peter about the Savior making amends, that it's that we would. We should be on that cross. But God comes down and in Christ suffers on the cross for us and she started to feel it, and now to this day it's been about a year.

She tells me every time she's discouraged, you can feel it in church, she thinks about the cross and so I know I'm not going to go and sales look look at all the stuff about the past. I trust God to lead her where she supposed to.

And I'm not the Mormon generation. That has to constantly parent make sure you got your temple recommend your doing this this and this. This probably still be I think that's the thing is what Paul's approach to if you read all his epistles in the New Testament, Jesus constantly boasting of the cross pointing people to the cross, preaching the cross.

That's, that's his whole focus, and so that really doesn't struggle for me as an artist D say because like you said there so many periphery aspects to it.

So we organizations so me calling so many requirements and it is like in so many general conference addresses their that I did. I felt personally work focusing enough on Jesus or just or just sitting in fast and testimony meeting and you know the travel logs and you know like people talk now about their week was it's like I'm not saying that they should express that, but I just felt like a drought is a drought of Jesus. I was just in a desert and I was just completing parched and and you just you just want to drink of Christ. When you find out that there's grace available that there's just this huge untapped well of grace, and you just been wandering around the desert. Your whole life is just such oh life-changing experience. I felt I felt all that in church I felt old and I've always felt that I was unique and different from other people because I never send an elders quorum presidency bishopric elders quorum president like this work without a bed nor on one by one got him his first number one Billboard album and so like I've had all these crazy amazing experiences and I member sitting in a meeting with all these_presidents and the prison was talking about Christ and feeling his loving spirit and I was like when you get a 750 is loving or that you lack the spirit of you like this and I was confused why I was always feeling it. In Jesus, but it's because I had that experience of seeing himself on the cross while I was and it wasn't something that may be different from those guys is just that's experience I had and I wasn't any better than aback I wanted to be like those guys but but it's you know, so I think there's a lot of people within the Latter Day Saints church a lot that know Christ and Christ knows that field and I can't say honestly that God wants to lead them out when somebody leaves I have to go. There's a reason for it and it's for the greater good, because in the end, the victor is his. He's arty one know the devil's days are numbered. But we pretty much create these like MacGyver moments that it's the end of the world for not doing this and this and this and this. So most most important express I have is sitting in my mother-in-law's Baptist Church were gone there for a some type of service. I remember what it was some reforms in Easter service or what it was one evening rejoin the mayor and we were so LDS in my my oldest adopted daughter went forward when they had an altar call and no milk there with with one of the engines from the church and prayed she was nine or 10 at the time and I member taking sought out and walking the halls and just kind of freaking out like what is happening here where we are warm and must not supposed to happen you know she just was baptized a year or so ago Mormon. She's not supposed to go forward for an altar call to Baptist Church. What's happening here and remember that experience vividly spaced so distraught by that and then thinking on it later. Like why why was I so upset she's she's going forward, expressing a need for a Savior right and it really kind of turning things upside down for me. I remember we were there the same Baptist Church for several years later, and a new new minister there was preaching a sermon in the end she was doing a similar altar call and she made the statement you know that we here at Friendship Baptist Church we don't don't win were not calling you to be a Baptist Sunday church the states you Jesus Christ. If you and that you said that it changed to realize you know while you I sat in the same church and walked its halls and freaked out over my daughter going forward on an altar call and for nothing because she was she was feeling not needed for Jesus that we all have. I love that you know-after my divorce married Tina, who was Catholic, and when we met on a cruise to the holy land. I was one of those LDS celebrities with all the Idaho retired people going on a cruise and I met her, and I thought she was Mormon because she didn't drink coffee and she's very healthy and didn't swear something really pure about when I found out he was Catholic. I was beside myself, what Catholics have a smell.

Catholics there. They smell like incense and I was like, then she told me she worked for Rick Warren centric church and she was in charge of helping him develop the Daniel which was a word of wisdom for that church because the pastor look down and see shoes when he had to teach about Daniel so is like oh no, I have a healthy so I can preach a healthy sermon and she can help with that. I remember going to mass with her for the first time and she cried and I was annoyed by mass. I was like I'm not a sacrament meeting, you know why you see the music almost as boring as ours. Why are we here, and I was there to support her and her mother and she was crying and she was tell me how much she felt Gus presence but I didn't feel it. So I said I thought something was wrong with me. I was I being such a jerk, but then she would come to Mormonism and I do some greater testimony about the Savior and I cry and she would feel anything so it open my eyes to Lake why is she having a spiritual experience and I'm not and I am she's not when we are in Sri Lanka and the first time in kind of a predominantly Muslim country, and I have my opinion of Islam because of Fox news and CNN.

I remember watching on TV and there was a gentleman look like a terrorist in a car and he was on a walkie-talkie talking to another person in a car on a walkie-talkie and they look like they were racing. I was like. This is a terrorist activity was going on while they were calling in to report with her camel was the race. He was a camel race but my American mind said these are terrorists, but that was false. I had false doctrine from the news from America telling me these are terrorists when in fact they were just coaches trying to win the game for these camels from Dubai.

So then then we go to this Hindu temple and you will travel a lot have been in almost every country since married to teenage years ago and we were in this Hindu temple.

Here's this beautiful couple fully dressed another color like white way we hear this Hindu temple. They believe in likely Scott's tickets. I don't there's this young couple and made a baby. This couple was so in love with each other and this baby they gave the baby to their priest and the priest you are stressed just accounting and he's burning incense and he's offering up fruits and vegetables you not like there's Cain's offering right fruits and vegetables and yet they present this baby and tears on the moms face and on the father in the family and everybody not like this couple is so committed to that child.

They want to give that child a home safety, love. I thought this is the most Christlike thing right up this love and so right there I was like Christ as his hand somehow in this situation. Even though he didn't create the new doctrine that the church, but there in that moment is Christ, and I feel like we have to recognize things that are foreign to us there sacred to others has potential Christlike moments for them to Christ as is and in guiding their because the love that child. The love those parents could lead them what's leading I miss. Love it's the fulfillment of the lot right there. So what I found to be a problem as a Mormon was I was always looking it things that were not part of us has wrong and it's it's all through the eye of the beholder, and you have to go that person is a child of God what is God doing as a sovereign God in their life. Users of the micro gasket that would be the message that you would would share with Latter Day Saints. If if they're listening for Latter Day Saints because I know Latter Day Saints or listening is they need to. Everyone should pursue a relationship with Jesus Christ and let him lead them. Hebrews chapter 7 is very clear to us in the King James version, but all the different Bibles that that Christ is your high priest, Christ is the one that is guiding you would let him lead you don't go on necessarily how you feel all the time go on applying things he taught and seeing the good in every way try to teach his disciples how to love other people and they strode but he kept persisting in Processing. Here we are today.

Again, 3 billion Christians. The gatherings happen and it's happening more working to get everybody is that love is the major essence of what Jesus is about and were judging other people and were questioning whether doing this or that of our business.

We have to go God is in control and our job is to love unconditionally. Everybody no matter what hold no judgment hold no courts and offer our whole hearts yeah know that that is beautiful and I just kinda brought me back is one of the things I used to say over the pulpit. When I was doing talks in sacrament meeting, not not long before I transitioned out of think God was working on my heart but I used to say that no one, when Christ was on the cross. It wasn't the nails that held him there. It was love and a guide I just I think the Christ him and what he did on the cross. That's really what Christianity is about and when you put the more things that you put in between, you know, the, the seeker and in that message. It's just distractions. At the end of the day is diluting the gospel message of the gospel message is simply that Christ died for us on the cross and and he's he was there as our donor to deal us a new heart and to bring us to his kingdom simple and and it's beautiful and nothing that we put in between is going to be as beautiful as that message I think that I think that the last general conference is a part of me and says they're using Jesus 32 to get away from things they need to correct that. At the same time majority people have no idea about the history so I praise them for putting Christ back at the center.

Getting rid of the's. I think that that's not putting Christ in the conversation and everything but there's always that little bit of me that goes okay talk of Christ is a preach of Christ a rejoicing Christ, but do they believe Christ and I believe him because I'm a horrible person.

I'm a sinner.

I cannot manage myself. I got to the point where I was desperate for healing. I been in priesthood leadership.

I was young. Ms. Brown was Heller's quorum present in the bishopric I was and I that every position most middle-age white guys the golf in Utah. Do you know I had the doctors I had nice white shirts and everything. I love to but I was I was a controversial young men's president because I created a video to inspire the guys run missions using Michael to be space music and skillet and Crowder comes you are and I getting these conversations with the priesthood leaders about scouting and how we need to focus on scouting like scouting can be gone. It's so irrelevant to Jesus you know and she dropped got a guy off to downtown and he has to get the merit badge you know IRS taxes merit badge. These are actually beneficial. Other than being on survivor alone. Great shows, scouts would never survive. It's likely to focus on spiritual stuff and I kept telling Tina my wife. We need to focus more in Jesus we need to go down to like just two hours of church and they need to put a message in the home that's all about Jesus and we had to get rid of this Mormon name is Mormon is not a real guy and you know it's kind of young Christ. Christ. Christ never seen all this because I had read BH Roberts blueprint the way the life you know that was suppressed and and put in the first presidency's archive and no one was allowed to read it until 85 so I think there's a beautiful way to tell the story of Joseph because he was a sincere pious fraud. He wanted his parents to get what they belong to different churches started church leader and he's a charisma attic enough to get everybody to participate and be part of it you know it uses the King James version that the King James version from 1769, was later corrected as there were a lot of false translations in there, but those translations to remain in the book of Mormon even though those that translate the King James were in error when they did at the everything that's in italics.

In that version, and you know goes on. I think we just have to look at the heart of people's intentions and love them unconditionally to do and achieve how that storm treat me over there, close here to to the glad you you survived driving talking nonstop by apologetic I know if this helped anybody. I'm sure somebody's gonna find it out there has been good going on. I you know the one thing I really push that this conversation is, is the whole is all the Campbellite I live in Nashville, Tennessee, and this is the headquarters for the Church of Christ, and Alexander Campbell lived here, I've read so much of his works and his you know his cynical review of the book of Mormon. I love and you know David Witmer is my favorite people. His testimony was so profound and so beautiful. I spent a lot of time reading all the apostles and abandon Joseph that are considered apostates and Sons of perdition and all I've read their material in the novel expository put some bad stuff and not expository, but you gotta admit the sincerity of those men begging, pleading, hoping asking Joseph to stop what he was doing.

I go back to pre-plural pre-polyandry, Cindy Rigdon left not because he had brain damage from getting tarred and feathered, his head hitting the rocks behind a horse profit tried to marry his 19-year-old daughter love letters in Joseph Smith papers members, the church can read that Cindy Rigdon was so offended that Joseph would try to seduce his dog. That's why he left 20 comes back and basically tries to stand up to Brigham Young and say Brigham Young will continue this practice and the likely talking but then Sidney you know he takes on start some shirt it dies out James Strang, who was a 31-year-old who came to try to get the church after Joseph confronted Brigham Young even translated Scripture and try to be like Joseph Smith and people like I like this guy because he translates the Scripture and Anza and Martin Harris joints his church. James strange ends up getting murdered like Joseph by two guys that were members of his church there were offended, so the noun Brigham Young was used smooth is like elsewhere injure from my deadwood receipt yet it's a different Scripture. He's like Al Swearingen from Deadwood is the bar manager Ray yes so you know when Brigham Young went on his mission to New York, he took church money and invest in a tavern and he would go around and invite businesses use very smart calculated and he's the one that had a hard time accepting the book of Mormon because he was a big and Alexander Campbell. Then he had a hard time accepting polygamy. That's a guy once you get them on board, even when suitable for you. So the guy is a genius, but I think a lot of what the church is dealing with now is a result of what Joseph started and Brigham Young propelled my answers, John Taylor, who I love, but I also am like so present it's so bizarre the whole thing but I did live back then so the whole idea of widows there being too many widows you know 14-year-olds are not widows that are just nice window dressings.

I guess this is certainly hard to come hard to come to terms with everything in my family goes back to him.

Gardeners my great-great-grandmother came from Denmark and crossed the plains and among the one had a tape that's a really inspiring story right shows from Denmark scrub Plaza handcart across the plains to Utah ultimately settles in Idaho and but but then this distorted issues she left behind a sick husband in Denmark. You know, so it was that you noted this just it's hard to come to terms of everything. I remember the member early on my time after my mission, having conversations online and talking to a good friend of mine hello invented by man, but he was making the case to me that you never leave Mormonism because of his ancestors, and do not like him for a family were at the Pioneer soccer my mom's side. My dad is a first generation convert. So if I look at things a little bit differently and I was like well if if if God was taking the elsewhere of, gotta go, you know, so how do you know your ancestors encourage based on what they know now the hearts of the fathers both turned to the children the hearts of the children will turn to the father. That is the spirit of Elijah. You know, I think the temple the family search. I think all that's beautiful. It's become a spiritual thing. Part of the religion but people do that all the time in your ancestors. That's one of the things that I was told was how can you walk away when your ancestors sacrificed so much and I said it's precisely because I am and I don't know if you've heard Carolyn Pearson's poem I posted. She says that my ancestors were Mormon pioneers and God came along and dropped the feather of troop almost people and the bird hasn't come by to.

I don't know how she says it but says that the bird hasn't come by to drop any more truth, but it's okay I'll be fine because my ancestors were Mormon so it's his beautiful analogy you know Mormon's the one thing God does with Mormon just make very confident and they can achieve in life.

So I think he's doing a lot to grow the Christian world by having by handpicking people out of that faith for his purpose for his reason. I don't understand it. So thank you for taking your time to talk to us about all this and share your experience am sure that it's been difficult. I hope I hope the nobody's been too negative with your announcements or order your your faith change but just like to thank you personally for coming on and expressing your expenses your ideas or thoughts of thinking. Thank you yeah was helpful to some people are so much more. As you guys know there's like I got a yeti. Explain 15 years of God putting you through that birth canal again. It's a beautiful Exodus and ironically people been amazing. That's what crazy people been absolutely amazing. So now that were coming to a close, here. Just want to ask you how cool would it how can people who are listening to podcasts today. Find out more about your music and your charity where you do. Thanks yeah if you want know about. I music you can ask Alexa you can ask Siri my website polkadot.com and when I transitioned out I started a faith block on Instagram was called Paul Cargill blog I share Scriptures sin sermons and inspire me every day and she's got a visual diary. Yes, just my website back.

I have I have a newsletter to sign up. There's a free song. That's not to be like version of Pachelbel's Canon that people of that's quartet seated right I didn't arrangement of it so you can get that because I do newsletter once a month you think you could talk to you guys on their thank you for tuning into this episode of the outer brightness podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Please visit the outer brightness podcast page on Facebook. Feel free to send us a message there with comments or questions by clicking send a message at the top of the page.

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