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Do They Continue? The Gifts, Pt. 2 (Articles of Faith Series

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The Truth Network Radio
March 28, 2021 12:01 am

Do They Continue? The Gifts, Pt. 2 (Articles of Faith Series

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March 28, 2021 12:01 am

In this episode, the sons of light continue their discussion of the Gifts of the Spirit. They tackle questions about whether the gifts were evident in Old Testament believers, what the gifts are, if there are different categories of gifts, and whether or not the gifts (all of them) continue. We hope you enjoy this conversation!

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Destined for Victory
Pastor Paul Sheppard
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*Church Latter Day Saints where we go. Your mercy, because of this process should traverse stress, made us alive and fireflies will come back to this episode today will be discussing again the gifts of the Spirit. Last week we recovered several questions related that covers more topics related to the gifts today so is there a connection between the spirit as gift in the spirit as giver. In other words, were the equipping gifts of the spirit present in the Old Testament, even though the indwelling gift of the Spirit was not Matthew Young tackles about how to answer this question in the only example that really came to mind that I was thinking about it is, there were times and first and second Samuel, where the spirit came upon people and spoke through them and even King Saul spirit even came upon King Saul and he prophesied through him, but I think even then you can see later in second Samuel that I don't think the King Saul was a believer because he continually tried to murder date is gently trying to throw a spear item and it's like after the fourth or fifth time you think they would get the hint. Like maybe don't trust this guy but but yet you just continually try to kill David, but the spirit still prophesied the room so this there is a lot of debate amongst people like what was he saved was he not saved you know how can the Spirit talk through him if he wasn't saved and so II think there is a lot of special reformed writers still talk about how the spirit can temporarily work for somebody and give them gifts and supernatural abilities or prophesy through them or give them gifts without them actually being saved.

So I think but we do still recognize that it is the Spirit himself. That does operate does give gifts so it's not as if we can operate independently of the Holy Spirit and have these gifts.

It's the it's the Spirit himself gives these gifts so there is definitely connection there. But one does not necessarily need to be saved. Believer for the spirit to work through somebody kind of Michael you said in the previous discussion we had talked about Abimelech right were God gave him a word of prophecy and spoke to him but we don't really get any kind indication that Abimelech was a true believer and remedy could have been. It's on its uncertain God can speak to people without them necessarily having the indwelling of the spirit that comes with being a true born again. Yeah, and courses. Example of Pharaoh in Egypt receiving the vision of the seven healthy cows being eaten up by the seven starving cows and so he's receiving a vision of what is going to happen in the future, and this is a pagan king, so I think that goes along with your point is well yeah what you say in answering this question is that yet or may not been an indwelling of the spirit you would look at the miracles performed by just people in the Old Testament and how is that possible without without the spirit, enabling them to do it so interested in your take on that too many interesting about Joshua having the ability to lead the Israelites in the battle and and and then winning these fights and and then cross the Jordan River you know and and on dry ground.

Just like the Red Sea and all the things that Elijah did you know calling fire down from heaven to me and I know you didn't do that was on power. So it seems to me like there were gifts being given by the spirit even in Old Testament times to use this out. So what what my theology professor Dr. Jack Koppel stated he says there's no connection between the spirit as gift in the spirit as giver Old Testament saints did not receive the gift of the spirit as an indwelling presence of the spirit. Nonetheless, bestowed gifts of service upon some of them. That is, the gifts of the spirit are not the result and are not related to the fact that the spirit dwells within us. So I think it's important distinction to kinda tease out, especially with with Latter Day Saints because Joseph Smith's view if you if you look especially the book of Moses.

I think it is right where where Adam is baptized by the Holy Spirit not not like we not like Christians talk about like that the baptism of the Holy Spirit actually baptized by the Holy Spirit, water, and so it's is his view was kind of like this this view that God's work with humanity was the same throughout all time and no that's not what we actually see within the Bible we see within the Bible is success of Revelation and so this mission thing to kinda tease out there because there's this term.

It may just consistency view that Latter Day Saints Scripture team seems to take versus what we actually see in the Bible. So think talking about the how the Old Testament saints. Some of them and Michael. Michael point out Pharaoh you know that there was work that the Holy Spirit did did and through people in terms of giving them spiritual gifts that that they used but it's not the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that the Christ promises to believers in the New Testament yeah just a little bit come across is this argument, Latter Day Saints will also prophesied, so he must've been a Christian and the fact that he went totally evil and bad means that you must file from your salvation so you down this this theology that isn't true.

If you take that mission and it gets even dicier in the New Testament. I just had this argument with Latter Day Saints this week you said you Judas was an apostle. Yeah, Judas was an apostle, but he wasn't a Christian. I mean, he betrayed Christ for some pieces of silver.

So he may have had that title by title or having gifts of the spirit does not make you a safe Christian. When you said that Judas was not a Christian and not saying in the sense that he was a professing believer, you know you're talking about a regenerative born-again actual triple correct yes yes thanks for clarifying that night I mentioned that because a lot of people get confused, you know, between a professing believer and a true bully. So next question for what purpose are the spiritual gifts bestowed upon believers Michael well okay so short answer on this one. It seems that they are given to help us strengthen the church and I would also say I think it was a bunch of subcategories that mean they can be for preaching for missionary work. Anything the church would be involved in the gifts can help with that.

If there's anything specific you are looking besides that that's that's what I came up with this pretty consistent with my theology professor said about the saving work of the spirit meets the needs of the individual but his equipping work has a different purpose. Spirit is ministries abilities individuals so that those individuals may use these gifts to meet the needs of God's covenant people as a whole, rather, and that there now just offer prescriptions 12 just confirmed what you just said. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of ministries in the same Lord. There are varieties of effects at the same God who works all things and all person to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good and then he speaks about the various gifts which ones give the word of wisdom to the spirit, to another the word of knowledge. According to the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit into another gifts of healing by the one spirit to another. The effecting of miracles into another prophecy into another. The distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues into another the interpretation of tongues.

I want to same spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually. Just as he wills or even as the body is one and it has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body sauce was Christ by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body with the Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink on spirit/just to confirm what you are good and rather my computer again on this I know you wanted to your really want to come touch on this, so there's forming lists of spiritual gifts in the New Testament. These are Romans 12 33 first Corinthians 1210 first Corinthians 1228, 30, and Ephesians 411 so question is this, lists all inclusive or representative and Matthew taken away and do that question when you wanted I was going to do that open in accordance yeah show side-by-side a lot so old on it should be open to that.

In an endeavor to save your last session on on-site. I should've thought about that and the other discussion first really threw me off eyes opening now thing about using logos or log us. The trial version and it took like 10 times aren't open on my computer. It's a little bloated in terms of its resources. I was trying to work with the love that to. After you use accordance last time I was like well and got log us. I might as well try to use and it just bogs everything down.

I can't yet having a bunch of stuff up in New Orleans is pretty rough. Okay hold on Kayla click the close so I am just going to close all that open them up a new copy. This is so, I guess keep you waiting to be called a show side-by-side the is a lexicon I don't need that all they see my screen with the accordance now I can see it okay. So I figured this would be good to kinda show side-by-side at all the different passages so as Romans 12. Third 337 okay and it was Ephesians 411 but that so it seems like when looking at Ephesians chapter 4 and prescriptions 1228 following. There is a kind of talking less about specific gifts and more about offices from right so feel free to jump in if you guys have comments or things will point out but yes when I was was going through these, it seems more like the beginning of Romans 12 and first I just other more specific to the actual specific gifts. So when you compare Romans 12 three verse 12. Sorry chapter 12 verse four and Romans. For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we who are many, as one body in Christ, and individually members one and one of another, and that kind of mirrors what we what we are reading and spending 12 just chapter I think we think that earlier eight other varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit in their varieties of ministries in the same Lord. There are varieties of effects of the same God who works all things and all persons, but each one is is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

And then, but one of the same spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually. Just as he wills so I think these two chapters, corroborate each other. The purpose of the gifts and then when we actually going to the actual lists Romans 12 we see since you have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.

Each of us is to exercise them accordingly. If prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith, his service and his serving or he who teaches, in his teaching, or he who exhorts, and his exhortation he gives, with liberality.

He who leads, with diligence. He shows mercy, with cheerfulness and then when I compare the list of gift lists of gifts and restraint in chapter 12 we see starting with verse eight for to one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit into another the word of knowledge.

According to the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit to another gifts of healing by the one spirit into another effecting a miracles into another prophecy into another that the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues and first convince chapter 1228 following what see speaks of all are not apostles. They are not prophets.

Are they alternate teachers. Are they all are not workers of miracles are they all do not have gifts of healings do they all do not have you not speak with tongues today all, do not interpret. So some of those are speaking of offices, apostles and prophets, and teachers in the summer.

Speaking a miracles gifts of healings tongues interpret interpretation assumedly of tongues and and and we seen at Ephesians chapter 4 as he gave all his he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, and so we see that is kind of mirroring what said in first 12 in terms of the types of teaching offices are gifts and abilities that God is set up in the church and he gives the purpose and Ephesians 4 verse 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, to mature man, to the measure of the stature which blocks to the fullness of Christ.

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive lists lists of course we would see that Scripture as a whole corroborates each other but there are slightly different purposes.

I think the passage but overall it's the spirit that's that's calling that's enabling that's giving all these gifts and it's for the betterment. It's given individually, but as for the betterment of the body the blessing and the edification of the body that's that's kind of the major points on a point out is kinda nice to have all the side-by-side to show that compares with another is anything you you guys wanted to add.

While I still have the sub nonskid.

I want to hear Michael's one-word answer will answer all the lists are representative is the 12 is a variety right so it really is just limited to what it says in these two passages, that really isn't much of variety. So I'm understating the Scripture were there is a variety assume that there's more than what's listed agreement that sky going back to cultural says nobody will agree to these listed. When combined, are not necessarily all inclusive.

There may be other gifts not mentioned in the New Testament that have been or are being distilled by the spirit sometimes in view of new needs that may arise.

Agree with Pettigrew. There probably were other gifts. Although the ones that Paul discusses are representative of the types of abilities bestowed on early Christians discounted quickly move through the lists in each passage. Romans 12 33 prophesying serving teaching and encouraging contributing to the needs of others.

Leadership showing mercy first Corinthians 12 through 10 the message of wisdom. The message of knowledge, faith healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, different kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues been moving to first Corinthians 1228 to 30, apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, gifts of healing ability to help others. Administration kinds of tongues, interpretation, and that Ephesians 411 apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, so good to have those lists up so moving on Scott and the next question. What this first Peter 410 to 11 and I have to say about the categories of the spiritual gifts is justifiable to distinguish between types of gifts based on this passage, Michael.

We think this passage and my thought is what we've been saying. Up until now that there's one spirit is giving all of these different gifts and so we can distinguish between them as being mean mean exactly by that. To me it seemed like their all from the same source, so I don't see them as being different types of messages talk about different uses is that we know not necessarily the passage so it's first Peter chapter 4 verses 10 to 11 a which says, and as each one has received a special gift employed in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God. Whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.

So the idea here, I guess is is that this kind of distinguishing between the one who speaks and the one who serves right so maybe there's different categories of the spiritual gifts prophesying, maybe prophets, apostles leaders, those would fall into the one who speaks versus you know the one who serves kind of thing so some some theologians use this passage to make a distinction between types of spiritual gifts that would have ceased versus types of spiritual gifts that would have continued digging into whether or not you think this passage is useful for that. Okay context. I just don't see that this works.

Personally, I would use it like that. I don't think there's enough information in their actually make that argument about you think I could go either way is rereading the passage kind of more speaks to me as to what it's is differentially what type of gift it is or how it's expressed in the body. So you bite like you said by speaking or by serving.

We have different gifts, but the kind of are manifested. Are there operated in different ways, so I guess you could and it's kinda more saying it's more giving instruction as to how to use these gifts, but all for the common purpose of serving one another and helping one another Site but I can kind of see what you were saying how one could interpret that as saying that some gifts of different purposes and and you know that leading into the next question yeah I'm not entirely sure and certain either.

That's kind of what it's missing from the distinction that's kind of drawn is try to convince you of some of the sale would convince myself on this exploring. This is weakness we talk, but the distinction is kind of drawn is that maybe the gifts of those who speak right would be prophecy revelation I can think that those are more supernatural than say the stewardship gifts of the Samaritan should gifts which are more just kind of naturally human abilities so it really is looking to kind of draw this distinction between supernatural versus natural and and suggesting of the sum of the supernatural gifts have ceased, so that's something that we could we could even spend a lot of time talking about but I want but yeah I've always thought about how there a lot of gifts to some people may be given that aren't may be the most critical desirable you know we we see someone who's really good at listening or helping people go through their issues or as experience and I think that is a gift that God can give. Is this gift of like counseling or gift of ministry is not as may be glamorous is like being able to preach really powerfully like a Spurgeon and I and it is so what do you think do you think that is the spirit working in them or do you think God is just kind of like providentially prepared that person to be naturally good at that. Or do you think it's the spirit enabling and them to perform that work is something that I'm trying to work off what you're saying. To see if I'm understanding what you're saying to your you're asking whether what I think someone who sues good counseling specifically or or dimensional Spurgeon so your dressing potentially preaching as well and asked if the if either of those are spirit working throughout person yeah I'm more the first that the farmer like you know see things that it seems like what anybody could do that, you know you an atheist could be a nice person. You know could take could help the State Ct., Reno say a kind word to somebody not you think you think that's God working in them with through the spirit or in error. Do you think maybe that's more God just providentially working out all know putting somebody in the right place right time. Yeah yeah I mean I think it's I think it's definitely possible that it's that it's God working through them you know we talked earlier about Pharaoh in the Old Testament Saul Wright who had times in which they they spoke a word work or showed some sign right and so I think it's definitely possible to say and especially if you if you agree with what we were talking about earlier were kind to say give, there were gifts of the spirit or just things of the spirit present in the Old Testament, even among people who were not followers of the people who were not saved believers so that I think that's possible because you said earlier were listed on Mike my theology professor that I read from earlier said you know that there's no connection between the spirit as gift and the spirit is giver so those those gifts don't necessarily come to us as the result of the indwelling presence of the spirits to see God working through others, and it doesn't necessarily need to be some kind of supernatural event to be a gift of the spirit.

Michael became a yes, I was just thinking to me you can atheists that can perform music and sing better than than Christians can, but you got you have these ministry teams and I'd say that's a gift of God, you know, and one of the things it talked about in the list of Scripture that we read these gifts are to glorify God and so when it comes down to it, even if they're not seeing as well as the atheist is there glorify God more than offensive and relevant throwing in some weird random comments but just like the junk contrast from Jesus's national born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith.

All of that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ-based teaching the name of our podcast brightness six, John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism to be brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son to have conversations about all aspects of the transition years challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around are so what about the sign gifts then still mainly speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy is evident in the church today. Are you a continuation a service station is and why you take the position you take the first so when I was transitioning out of the Latter Day Saints church and kind of going to Christianity.

One thing that attracted me originally to community of Christ as they have basically the same view of spirit that mainline LDS church as you note to me it just seems strange to have a Christian church that doesn't leave them on a revelation or doesn't believe that they have the authority to heal and things like that and it took a long time for me to kind of transition and understand and read Scripture and read arguments given by Christians and the final word. The book that I was dead, mentioned previously really kind of ship help to kind of give big scale picture of the gifts specifically to sign gifts and it's really hard. I think to give a straight up just proof text of sensationalism. You know, because there's a lot of passage can point to where to not for sick prophecy you know to not rebuke profits and things like that.

Not not to not to scorn profits from giving order prophecy and it's it's a lot easier to point to those as they will see were not supposed to know were supposed to accept prophecy were supposed to receive it willingly and joyfully is not a specific passage. It says gifts have now ceased. You know, so it's a lot harder to prove sensationalism, but I think when you look at the grand scheme of Scripture.

What you see is these these periods of time where incredible manifestations of God's working in time are kind of limited to certain periods of time so we do see God giving prophecy through certain people. But when we when we talk about the major miracles we basically see that working and Moses with the parting of the Red Sea, the water coming out of the rock, see that with Elijah calling down fire from heaven. We see that with Elisha, but we see long periods of time where we don't see these grand miraculous miracles before my God really Macy's Macy prophecy. We may see an occasional healing. But there's there's not.

These grandiose miracles are being performed and we see that often times in the Old Testament context as being a sign or an approbation from God that these people are sent from God. So like was a mount caramel that Elijah was on the name amount. I get all amounts mixed up for his mount caramel to the Mount of Transfiguration is to me amounts we need to make amounts fewer again. Mount caramel is a caramel sundae from McDonald's on top of Mount caramel all covered in our all… Terrible terrible night caramel cricket around with anyways enough it was.

It was to is to show that the God of ball was not the true God, and that you know Yahweh was the true God, and I consumed the supplier that Elijah had Ed set up you not been doused with these barrels of water is is God's doing a sign for specific purpose is the same thing with Elisha, you know, like proving that he was the chosen successor to Elijah that Moses was know God's chosen leader to lead Israel out of Egypt, we don't see that for a lot of the history of the Old Testament and then we come to Christ. That's again when the miracles start showing a more grandiose fashion healing the sick, raising the dead.

All kinds of miracles. Yes, I do not have the gift of singing apologized and we we see that what the apostles also you know after the day of Pentecost they were given did the gift of the spirit that the fell upon them and they were prophesying their ceilings is that there were multitudes of people that came to Peter and they just hope that the shadow Peter would cross over them so that they might be healed in us as they were all healed so there were these miraculous healings on a massive scale going on.

But as we see, I think I think you can make a solid case. Over time it was it started become less and less of this. You know entire multitudes of being filled their people still being healed but it was more on an individual level and then towards one of the last epistles that keep number was written in the last epistle from Peter. I think a seven second Timothy and he was saying to Timothy to to drink wine for his many stomach ailments. Why didn't he just tell him to go find upon an apostle or healer to get rid of the stomach ailment study tells the drink wine for us is so we can see that like there is a huge burst of miraculous healings at the day of Pentecost, and afterward in a kind of slowly dwindled over time and so I think the that when I when I read it all in context and the fact that these healing started in Jerusalem and they went in concentric circles he not started with the Jews, the believing Jews in Israel, and it kinda moved out words and moved to the students of the to the Samaritans into the God fears which were Greeks that were kind of amenable to Judaism that had been officially converted and then it moves finally to non-Jewish nonbelieving Greeks, we see that we see God working out word and each time he goes to new people group in all these these miracles are shown. So it's to demonstrate God's sanctioning her God's power giving the authority to these apostles to these people, showing that these are his people.

He is working in them. As for that specific purpose. And so when the church was setting of the church was set up. Elders are set up in every city and you know there is a completion of the Canon we see we don't see these miracles anymore in history, and so it's it's hard to prove secessionism, but that's what I am is a is a sensation it's not a hard sensation instancing, God can't do anything today but it's more of what God does healed, but there are not people with the gift of healing and others not people that go round and can touch people feel overly ill and you know there are stories of people that supposedly in missionary know whether the languages are known there able. There's miraculous instances of them being able to to speak the language supernaturally and and I don't know. I can testify to whether or not that's possibly true, but I it's deftly possibilities. That's kind of why more of a know I don't want to say a cautious cessation of world just like oh no not affirm cessation born dog with the sign gifts that are given for specific purpose in time. Once the purpose had been fulfilled than those sign guests were no longer operative in the church and for those that would say well there's still no passage in the Bible it says that these arts must operate today.

While I point to passages that say what the gut but the gift should look like, you know, tongues was not just incoherent speech. It was actual languages so if you want to show me that the link the tongues are operative today that show me a congregation where they are all just randomly starting to speak Russian and Japanese when they've never started when I never studied it before and have someone interpret that perfectly same spirit and then all will I will become a continuation until then, I guess in the practical cessation is that on but as I suffer that I could argue all day about that makes a lot of sense to me. It's pretty close to what my my current position is as well go back to the question we discussed another episode. Can you limit God. You know that's why guess I would say, a cautious secessionist right like I'm with you, mother, thinking it's hard to try to prove it from the Bible but it logically makes sense in terms of even the way you know John writes his gospel and in demonstrating you know the signs that Jesus did the sign passages in the Gospel of John. The purpose for them being to show that Jesus was the son of God, come in power. Michael, this is a question that I really thought about too much before preparing for this podcast and really taken a huge solid position on this and I think the reason is not typically a huge like really big into the nonessential doctrines like things that divide us really big into harmony among Christians, and so very reluctant and sluggish to get into any doctrines like I know the whole like pre-email and all that stuff is not really get into it at some point and I know a minute be a fanatic about all the things that I'm just taking my sweet time and I do tend to talk a lot to Latter Day Saints and I view it as a bit of a hindrance because I have Latter Day Saints on the time I go if I become a Christian, you have to believe that there is not give same and I like to go to say no, you don't have to believe that you know that is a nonessential doctrine to say that I leaned one way, the opposite of you guys as far as where Eileen, I would say that I'm a cautious continuation asked discussed in the euro. There isn't scripture in the Bible that says they were supposed to and and to leave Don is the same yesterday today and forever. Those should still exist.

That said, I am extremely skeptical. A lot of times when people are speaking in tongues and more giving a prophecy so I'm probably somewhere on the line with that I can go either way tomorrow, but at the moment yeah I'm a cautious continuation asked accents make sense of allusion to the conversation. Latter Day Saints is a good segue into our final question. So how do you experience the gifts of the spirit now is a Christian and how is this similar to or different from your experience as a Mormon Michael Bunche tackle this verse that your opportunity to speak to the Latter Day Saints to kinda question you yes so they came to mind just now is the largest Saints have the article of faith and believe in the gifts you know all the gifts, tilting present book of Mormon is very strong on this you heard this elder Benton are gave a talk in January and BYU you basically think you will ask me all the time why don't we still have the same miracles of the restored gospel hand when when it started, so these miracles are still happening in each of these examples feel real and are founded in episode on its highly recommend listening to it. Give these eight examples of people just going to the temple. Not having much time in getting worked on and calling that a miracle and it just simply does not compare to what the LDS church says was going on when the church first started seeing allies and angels coming down and giving them the priesthood and all these things they said happened and so is in Mormonism. They taken a you know that the miracle seeks sort of like it's more of a theoretical thing. But you don't really see examples of that going on. So it is really appointment letter Saints have currently to actually go on what I would say is he saying I didn't have a lot of experiences where I felt like I was receiving the gifts of the spirit. There's one thing I was on my mission and I prayed that God would give me the ability to speak well and I felt like I was able to do that when I came home from my mission so I attributed that to you and gift of the spirit, of course, I left the church now I'm not supposed to even have the spirit prepared presentation.

I still am able to do it just as well when I was a member of the church so that tells me that it's not really related to know at this point I experience the gifts spirit a lot, especially when it comes to you my writing so I'm constantly finding myself having writers block and try to put out an article every mom. I probably got 10 articles right now just have an introduction maybe one or two sentences that I started and I couldn't figure out what in the world right next every month. I'll start one of these articles and I was suddenly just know exactly what to write and this last month and an article that were going to talk about in a future episode which is called vicarious atonement. A proclamation to Latter Day Saints and I started writing it, and my fingers were moving faster than my my mind could and some of the things I wrote down. I never considered until after I typed it out.

For example, one is a citizen when the did receive ordinances in the LDS temples. They are not receiving it a covenant that they can break one that is treated as if they obeyed it perfectly ever thought of until I'm broke so I felt like the spirit was just telling me what right if that makes sense. So that's probably one of the biggest ways I see it another way would be my sanctification. I had your experience not too long ago where God really convicted me because I was just thinking more about my glory in his and I just felt in my heart right. Oh my goodness like this is good, and I know it didn't come from me from my heart. No way same thing when I first got saved, I was in a really bad marriage and I was considering you has an unsaved individual like I wanted to have an affair like things were so bad and I'm saving that completely change my heart fell back in love with my wife so I just seen this over and over again were you living there something I'm struggling with and through my own efforts I can't change my heart, but then when God moves upon me. It just changes and so that is the power of spirit working in your life right there should have me jamming on first and I can follow up on that yet. The original trilogy got the SQL trilogy: F yeah I don't know if I thought about it and is something I struggle with is letter to same like an angel's failure gifts are what yours your skilled dad and I do know how why would what would say the sensation is I would say that all gifts of the Spirit.

First off our ceased is just talking about the sign gifts that specific time. So God still operating. He still giving the gift of faith the gift of knowledge of the word of wisdom, not the not there is no coffee and tea and alcohol thing. But, like you know, words of wisdom to the receiver. So God is costly, working in his people to guide them and I don't know it's it's easier to have other people around you kind of consult with them and asked them you like what you think how do you think God is using me to help you or how do you think he's using you to bless others, or what you think I'd be suitable for an something that I think that it is instinctive.

So I think it's you know like if it's if it's right it's right doesn't have to everything LDS believe is wrong but you know I've had I've had in all my girlfriend and I will just be talking about something and shall say we know. I never thought about that way or not. I never really know thought about this passage that Wayne she says your gifted with the teaching that like anything is great but I guess just a certain way that that ice poker or said something are taught to talk to her about something in Scripture really helped her to understand and or there be times when she needs encouragement, so I would I would share passages with her that really touched her. So I think you know there's ways that God works in us to the betterment of others that may not seem supernatural to us or may not seem like it's working the spirit, but like Michael's, explaining in his in his writing.

You know ideas Bosco's mind you know it we may got me work in us without us really realizing it, and I guess you could explain it that way but ultimately I think if were seeking after God and were trying understand his word and live a life is pleasing to him. When the weather was successfully doing that to 1° or another. If it constantly seeking after the Lord will use us in a week we meet. We we may fret and worry and constantly ask will you know how many and there's a gift and not using. Or maybe there's something I'm not doing right or I think of for just just there and we trust in God and we have a place in God's put us in a church that he's put us into. We can be a blessing. We just pray for God to help us to be a blessing to use our gifts.

I think he'll open the doors for us. You know how he'll open a path for us where baby will say something that touches someone or maybe will will have an experience or life that can be used to comfort somebody else and also I think God paves the path for us to you to use us in certain ways as he needs us is not so much like you know we have one gift and that's the only gift that we have and so we've got it you've got a really work at that gift to make it look as good as it can be.

I think it's I think God gives different gifts to different people at different times so, my thoughts were negative. Thank you for the thank you both for that. I know this question kind of book ends our discussion here on the just the spirit was started, part one with the first question asking how we experience the gives the spirit as as Latter Day Saints and our end in here with how we experience despair as Christians for me and I talked about how is A say almost too busy sometimes to be able to Ponder and think about you know the ways in which God might be gifting your and and and and also you kind of pulled in directions that maybe are not gifted in just by virtue of the way the callings are handed out with them. The LDS church in terms of necessity, we have a open calling and we have a warm body. Philip so you as a Christian it's been kind of enlivening to me to consider the ways in which the spirit is gifting me in one way that you know that I kind a sense God was gifting me and in one of my mentors kinda called out form is is the gift of being in encourager disorder is kind of the way sometimes translated the Scriptures, you have found great joy in encouraging people in their walk and walk with Christ and it's it's it's been like a set enlivening for me to try to find that another one is is is just the gift of faith know it's it's been common amazing ride to see God work in my life over the past 10 years coming up on 10 years in August. Since I've been a Christian. So that the gift of faith that is just abiding and keeps me grounded and in Christ is amazing and so happy to share that with others.

So yeah, that kinda brings us to the end of our discussion of the gifts of the spirit. It's been fun guys next week. We are having our Easter episode so will be talking about the pinnacle event in Christian history, the resurrection of Jesus and because we are the brightness podcast fireflies.

We will be time at him with Mormonism in some way. You have to listen and find out how are things we think of the outer, please visit the out of brightness podcast free to send us a message that send a message of time.

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