After Appomattox: Gen. Robert E. Lee in the Post-War Years

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Product availability may vary by region. See the app for details. This is Lee Habib and this is our American stories. And we tell stories about everything here on the show, including your story.

Send them to our American stories dot com. And one of our favorite subjects, American history. So much has been said about this legendary general in between the years of 1861 and 1865. Yet very little is known about this major American historical figure after his surrender. And we're telling this story because on this day in 1807, General Robert E. Lee was born.

Here to tell the story is Gettysburg National Park Ranger Matt Atkinson. What I'm hoping to do, among others, besides give you a timeline as to what Robert E. Lee did in the post-war years, which I think is one of obviously the most often overlooked portion of his life, because, I mean, the Civil War is always going to be first and foremost. The other main theme I'm going to try to get across, through his own personal example, Robert E. Lee tries to reconcile the nation. And what I think a lot of us as Americans today have forgotten is that how far apart this country was in 1865. I think it is the view of a lot of people that Lee surrenders at Appomattox and bam, you know, oh, we'll just forget about it, you know, okay.

You know, we'll just go, we'll just hold hands and we'll just reunite and we'll just continue on down that path again. It takes the country decades, some would say a century, some would say not even yet, for the country to really reunite. I would probably put the country seriously coming back together in the same vein in the Spanish-American War when we all had a common enemy once again instead of each other. But that would be, you know, roughly 30 years after the end of the Civil War. Robert E. Lee does not live that long.

He's only going to live for five years. But you think about who symbolized the Confederacy coming out of the Civil War and who these southerners were going to emulate as they were coming out. And then put yourself in the shoes of the man himself. I mean you're Robert E. Lee.

Everything you do is under a microscope. Everything. And you know he hated that.

The crowds, everything else. Alright so Appomattox is on April 9th of 1865. He surrenders to General Grant. I think Robert E. Lee is greatly surprised by the terms that he gets from U.S. Grant there.

Grant could have imposed harsh terms and I think that Ulysses S. Grant's magnanimous gesture there is often overlooked in the reconciliation of the country. But Robert E. Lee has to stick around Appomattox for a few days as an army commander and he has to shore up paperwork. And then three days after he surrenders on April 12th he sets out from Appomattox riding Traveler, his famous horse. Eventually three days later he's going to make his way back to Richmond, Virginia. And when he gets to Richmond a crowd gathered and you know they want to touch Lee as an icon or whatever touches his boot. Lee gets off his horse, he bows to the crowd graciously and everything and he walks back in. He's still got his uniform on. That'll be the last time I suppose in his official capacity, he'll put it back on for these pictures in a day or two. But that'll be in his last capacity as a soldier. I mean when he walked through that front door what went through his mind?

You ever thought about that? I mean what did he do? His wife and his children, his daughters, he had four daughters. He had children ranging from 19 to 32 years of age at the time.

He came in and they were always a you know kind of a close family of always somebody that he could turn to and be himself. I wonder what he said to Mary. I mean did he express any regrets? Did he say anything? Did he cry? At some point every soldier has to look back at what they've done and you can go from privates to full generals, to lieutenants, to captains, to major generals, to lieutenant generals.

Everybody looks back on the decisions which they've made. And I wonder when he came home that day what he thought. Now as he's trying to get his thoughts back together none other than the famous Civil War photographer Matthew Brady is going to call upon him. While he's there you can only imagine while he's in this Franklin Street house and right after going on for the next few weeks, you can only imagine the people that are coming by to call upon Lee.

I mean some autograph seekers, some just wanting to see him. Old friends, acquaintances, George Meade came by I was just reading about up here. And Lee doesn't want to see all these people.

You know it's the last thing he wants to do up here. So one day Custis is going to answer the door and there's going to be this ragged old Confederate soldier standing there. And then this soldier, his soldier's got his arm in a sling and he says to Custis, he says I'd like to see General Lee. And Custis says well the general's not receiving at this time. He goes well you know I'm from Texas and I'd like to see the general that I've followed on so many campaigns. You know standing there in his rags.

He was probably stinking to high heaven too you know if the truth was known about it. Custis looks him over and he says I'll see what I can do and he allows him into the house. Well Lee is upstairs in that Franklin house in some bedroom or office. And so they show the soldier in. He sits down, the Texan sits down and a few moments later here comes the steps of General Robert E. Lee.

He must have had his own certain gait as he came down because they recognized it. And so the soldier and the staff officer stood as Lee came around the corner. As Lee comes around he bows graciously to the people that are in the room and then he extends his hand and he walks over to that Texan, this private.

And the Texan extends his hand and they embrace in a handshake. And Lee looks at him and the Texan looks at him and the soldier can't say anything. Just imagine that scene, a private, a lowly private and the general of the Confederate Army meeting after the surrender. What is there to say and what did Lee think?

My goodness what a burden. And all the things that he had to question in himself. The decisions he made. Terrific storytelling about General Robert E. Lee.

What happened after the surrender? The story continues here on Our American Stories. Go to www.OurAmericanStories.com now and go to the donate button and help us keep the great American stories coming. That's OurAmericanStories.com. Go to ChumbaCasino.com to claim your free welcome bonus.

That's ChumbaCasino.com and live the Chumba life. Abusers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. Underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. From Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and I heart podcast, comes Variety Confidential. I'm your host, Tracy Patton. And in season one, we'll focus on the secret history of the casting couch. So join us as we navigate the tangled web of Hollywood's secret history of sex, money and murder.

Subscribe now to Variety Confidential wherever you get your podcasts. And we continue with Our American Stories and the story of General Robert E. Lee and what happened to him after he surrendered at Appomattox. And we're telling this story because on this day in 1807, General Robert E. Lee was born.

In the last segment, we heard Gettysburg National Military Park Ranger Matt Atkinson describing a scene in which a private from Texas meets the general in Richmond. Now one word comes out of his mouth and he eventually, as he's still holding Lee's hands, he just burst into tears. This veteran of four years in the war, he burst into tears and after a few moments he just walked out the door.

Nobody said anything. The eyewitness said that Lee bowed graciously to the crowd and walked back up the stairs. That is the type of emotion you're dealing with coming out of Appomattox.

You're talking about a people that have just lost their hopes for a nation. That's why the Civil War ends folks when Robert E. Lee surrenders because he is the definition of the Confederacy. He is the symbol of the Confederacy. So Matthew Brady called. At first he rebuffed Brady but what did Brady do? He went to Lee's boss who was his wife.

That's right. His wife and Mrs. Lee told the General to go get dressed. Okay.

What's the situation? On May 29th, 1865 President Andrew Johnson offers a general amnesty to all former Confederates who signed the oath of allegiance but he excludes all who have held civil office under the Confederate government and people with an estate valued over $20,000. On June 7th, 1865 Lee is indicted for treason. June 13th Lee encloses in a letter the General Grant his application for pardon. Lee's position is quote, I am ready to meet any charges that may be preferred against me and do not wish to avoid trial but if I am correct as to the protection granted by my parole and am not to be prosecuted I desire to comply with the provision of the President's proclamation.

That's a lot of P's and therefore enclosed the required application. What did Grant do? He immediately requested that all indictments be squashed and the pardon be granted.

What was the result? Prosecutors quietly halted proceedings against Robert E. Lee but did not formally dismiss the charges. No pardon would be forthcoming from President Johnson either. Now this is what we know now but Lee did not know that. Now Lee in asking for this pardon is probably in Southerner's eyes the most controversial act of his life. He was in that pardon admitting secession, the creation of the Confederacy and fighting against the Northern invasion were all wrong.

Right there. So by submitting that, to say the least, he is not making any friends. However for tens of thousands if Lee applied for a pardon, what do we say the theme was?

Personal example. Then maybe they should also apply for a pardon. The veterans who did sign him restored their rights, unlike Lee, in a manner that the government would never give the General. Captain George Wise, holding the oath in his hand, asked Lee, my parole covers it and I do not think it should be required of me.

What would you advise? I would advise you take it, Lee responded. General I feel that this is an indignity. If I must swear the same thing at every street corner I will seek another country where I can at least preserve my self-respect. Do not leave Virginia, Lee said in a sad voice.

Our country needs her young men now. Young Wise did take the oath and when he informed his father what he had signed the father exclaimed you have disgraced the family. The son responded General Lee advised me to do it.

Oh, that alters the case. If whatever General Lee says is alright I don't care what it is. Alright, I want you to think about something right here as I start to read this part of it. Most of you already know or are familiar with Civil War know what buildings this represents. This is actually Washington College.

I want you to think about something right now though as I get into it. If you're Robert E. Lee what would you do after the war? Now the state of the college itself is that it had been heavily damaged during the war. The trustees were meeting on the night of August 4th, 1865 in order to elect a new president. Right before the vote a member stood and said that he had heard that Miss Mary Lee, daughter of the General, stated that the South had stood ready to give Lee anything but what he really wanted which was a way to make an honest living. The idea is shown in the room and a few minutes later Lee had been unanimously elected president. Of course Lee after much urging from friends is going to accept the presidency on August 31st. This is how Lee accepts it though.

Lee pointed out in his letter taking the job that he had not been pardoned yet. He was also explicit in what his political views might be. I think it the duty of every citizen in the present condition of the country to do all in his power to aid in the restoration of peace and harmony and in no way to oppose the policy of the state or general government directed to that object.

It is particularly incumbent upon those charged with the instruction of the young to set them an example of submission to authority. 20 weeks after Appomattox Lee was urging the healing of all dissensions. October 2nd Lee is inaugurated as president. That's fast. It's within a month of offering the job.

The college opened with 40 students and another 100 students drifted in by late fall. Once Lee meets the student though he is able to remember their name. Alright so he starts. October 3rd he signs the oath of allegiance to the United States. The oath was sent to Washington where it landed on the desk of William Seward.

Apparently thinking that the document had already been recorded, Seward gave it to a friend for a souvenir and it was found in a bundle of papers. Lee's amnesty oath 105 years later. Anybody remember what happened during the Ford administration? He got his pardon.

Gerald Ford. Lee reviewed his own humble efforts to regain United States citizenship and then concluded with this passage which would be quoted by generations. I need not tell you that true patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary at one period to that which it does at another and the motive which impels them the desire to do right is precisely the same. The circumstances that govern their actions change and their conduct must conform to the new order of things.

History is full of illustrations of this. Washington himself is an example of this. At one time he fought in the service of the King of Great Britain. At another he fought with the French at Yorktown under the orders of the Continental Congress against him. He has not been branded by the world with reproach for this but his course has been applauded.

Here's your paradox. That's how Robert E. Lee justifies his actions of being in the United States, leaving the United States and coming back into the United States. And you're listening to the voice of Gettysburg National Military Park Ranger Matt Atkinson and what terrific storytelling and what cultural context. I know a lot about Gettysburg and a lot about the Civil War. My dad went to Gettysburg College and went there for a reason. Dwight D. Eisenhower was living there and it was the 1950s. He wanted to just meet the great general. When we come back, more of this remarkable story, the story of General Robert E. Lee and his life after his surrender at Appomattox.

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Add life to cart. And we continue with our American stories and with Gettysburg National Military Park Ranger Matt Atkinson telling the story of General Robert E. Lee's life post-appomattox and after the surrender to General Grant. And by the way, as you can tell, this is a talk that Matt was giving in front of a live audience and we love to bring you to the place where some great storytelling is happening.

We do that quite often here in our American stories. And we're telling this story because on this day in 1807 General Robert E. Lee was born. Let's return to Matt Atkinson and the story of Robert E. Lee. We go into 1866 and by this time ladies and gentlemen there are race riots in Memphis and New Orleans. The nation was heating up with congressional elections that would turn into a northern referendum on how to treat the vanquished south. President Johnson was at war quote unquote with Congress. He wished for lenient treatment which allowed the southern states back in without ratifying the 14th amendment and Congress wished for the south to be made to ratify.

During all this turmoil Lee counseled everybody to stay calm. 1867 January 7th Congress looks into acts of impeachment against President Johnson. March 2nd federal government passes the Reconstruction Acts. These acts strip the state governments of power and place the south in five military districts.

Congress declares it can change any aspect of local government without previous notice. States must ratify the 14th amendment and one out of every four Confederates are excluded from voting. And all African Americans are included.

The real carpetbagger era was beginning. Northerners are elected by blacks and the governor of Virginia is from New York to give you an example. So what does this do to these Confederates? And in a time we would call them very racist.

They do not like the situation. A boy with a broken leg who Lee was visiting recalled this time. Once I remember he sat still for some time by the window and his face looked so sad. He spoke with the southern people of their losses, privations and sufferings and also of our vain struggle. I cannot sleep he said for thinking of it and often I feel so weighted down with sorrow that I have to get up in the night and go out and walk until I thoroughly weary myself before I can sleep. That was the only melancholy sentence I ever heard him utter and the only time I ever saw that heartbroken look on his face. Another instance a lady said that Lee in a moment of being unguarded she said to Lee why do you look so sad and Lee turned to her and said I'm thinking about all the soldiers that died in vain when I knew it was too late. And he said she goes you know basically why didn't you say something he goes no no they had to find out for themselves. That ladies and gentlemen is that separation between civilian and military authority which makes our government even today so unique.

Look at any other government out there and notice how often the military overthrows. Okay Lee is summoned to testify in Jefferson Davis's treason trial. Basically Lee was offered amnesty for his testimony against Jett Davis or face re-indictment for treason.

After the prosecutor tried to establish Lee had only followed orders that Davis was responsible for, Lee dug in his heels. Quote I am responsible for what I did and I cannot now recall any important movement I made had I not acted on my own responsibility. Now how many of you, how many of you would have with that hanging over your head potential indictment will be able to get on the witness stand and self-indict yourself?

That's a lot. Christmas day 1868 President Johnson sends out a general amnesty to all Confederates who had not been restored their rights by previous actions. It was over. Lee and Davis would never be tried but Lee was still not a citizen because his application had been misplaced. Right there. A couple things on that. One, Robert E. Lee never votes again. Two, can you imagine any other revolution that you ever hear about in the world where the ringleaders don't get hung? Or worse, if you think about it right there Jefferson Davis was not hung for war crimes. And once again who's the symbol of the rebellion? Robert E. Lee. And he gets to go in peace. I mean it's remarkable in a way. It's definitely unique.

We could very well, they very well could have created a martyr. Alright. Now in 68 Lee is going to go on his first vacation. He will choose the Rockbridge Bath Resorts.

At the resort there was a nightly dance called the Treadmill. And there were both Northerners and Southerners. Does anybody know what you call a Southerner who helped the North? Scalawag.

Right here. There was a West Virginian girl at the hotel who one man said quote was very beautiful and very attractive and more handsomely dressed than any woman at the Springs. However the girl's father quote had been a union man during the war and had remained at home and made a fortune while the men in the South had gone in the army and lost all they had. Quote the women would have none of her.

And the men dared not risk their wrath. The girl became quote very lonely. One evening when the dance was occurring the girl was on the other room reading.

In the other room reading. She became aware of a brilliantly shined pair of shoes that had stopped before her. And looking up her eyes met those of General Lee. He smiled, bowed and asked for her company at the next dance. When the dance was over and General Lee led her back to her seat there was a general rush for introductions.

And from that time on the girl not only had all the partners she wanted but actually became the bell of the season. Now let's go back. That's another act. Does it change the whole South? No.

Nobody outside that ball that night ever saw that. Did the newspapers report it? No. Did it go out on the telegram? No. Come out in a book?

No. But to those people, let's say it was a hundred people at that dance that night, all eyes were on General Lee. And his personal example by going over there, he probably knew the backdrop of that story, he had daughters I'm sure they would inform him that were there at the resort right there.

His personal example led to that girl being allowed back into the social circle. Now while Lee was on vacation, when he was in a group of ladies, one of the bells turned to him and said she was tired of being friendly to Northerners. And turned to Lee and said, Well General Lee they say General Grant is coming here next week.

What will you do then? Christina Bond, the lady who recorded this scene, quote, said some of us would have gladly slain her on the spot. You didn't ask him that but Lee answered an earnest far away look in his eyes. Quote, If General Grant comes I shall welcome him to my home, show him all the courtesy that is due from one gentleman to another, and try to do everything in my power to make his stay agreeable. End of quote. Grant did not come but Lee's example continued to penetrate hardened Confederate hearts. Christina Bond concluded, quote, We saw moreover his absolute loyalty to the allegiance he had sworn when he had laid down his arms, and his whole soul was engaged in the work of Reconstruction, and he lost no opportunity to promote it socially. And you're listening to Gettysburg National Military Park Ranger Matt Atkinson when we continue the final part of this remarkable story here on Our American Stories. It helps us.

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See dkng.com slash football for eligibility and deposit, restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. Abusers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. Underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. From Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and iHeart podcast, comes Variety Confidential. I'm your host, Tracy Patton, and in Season 1 we'll focus on the secret history of the casting couch. So join us as we navigate the tangled web of Hollywood's secret history of sex, money, and murder.

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Go to ProBowl.com slash tickets to get yours today. And we continue with our American stories and the story of General Robert E. Lee. And what happened to him after he surrendered to Ulysses S. Grant at Appomattox in 1865.

We had just heard about Lee's reaction to a possible visit by Grant. And my goodness, this must not have been met necessarily with, let's just say, kindness from fellow Southerners. But he was trying to lead by example. Knew the power of his example.

Here again is Gettysburg National Military Park Ranger Matt Atkinson. Now Grant, of course, decides to run for president in 1867. He becomes a Republican, which infuriates the South. One day one of the members launches into a diatribe against Grant. Lee's face grew flush. Sir, Lee said, if you ever again presume to speak disrespectfully of General Grant and my presence, either you or I will sever his connection with this university. What does Lee remember about Grant? He remembers Appomattox. He was generous.

And I like that loyalty because Lee never forgot. As we all know, Grant is elected president. Lee and Grant would meet one more time, ladies and gentlemen.

When the two men met, one observer said, and we don't have the whole conversation, that both men seemed to be saddened by the memories that each other brought. Neither one of them talked about the war. General Grant apparently, if this version is true, did make one allusion to the war. When he asked Lee what he was doing in town, Lee informed him he was trying to get a railroad to Lexington. Grant said to him, ah General, you and I have had a lot more with destroying railroads than we have had in building them. You know what Lee did?

Didn't even acknowledge it. That's the public Robert E. Lee, stoic to the last. That interview probably lasted five, ten minutes before they got up. The two men would never see each other again. We think, as far as his health, that Lee is going to suffer a stroke in the winter of 63. And his health is never really fully recovered. Lee was aware of his precarious position. My health has been so feeble this winter that I am only waiting to see the effect of the opening spring before relinquishing my present position.

I am admonished by my feelings that my years of labor are nearly over. The faculty urged Lee to take time off and quote visit his many friends in Savannah. And so that's why they're going to send Lee south. What this would turn out to be, would be his farewell tour. Which was something he would never allow himself to ever be knowingly let into.

It's going to really hasten his death. This was the first time he would travel south of Virginia into other Arctic confederate states where millions wanted to see him. From Richmond, Lee heads south to Warrenton, North Carolina. After visiting Annie's grave, they continue to Raleigh.

The telegraph operator from Warrenton sends a simple message ahead. General Lee is aboard and even at midnight a crowd gathers and Lee is startled awake by the chants of Lee, Lee, Lee. Lee's daughter would later write that they were laying in that sleeping car. And when the chants, the Lee chants started that woke both of them up. One was on the top tier, I guess she was on the top and he was on the bottom tier, the bunks right there. Neither one of them said a word as those chants were going on.

By sunrise at places where the train didn't even stop, people stood by the railway, dignified looking men. A lot of them, Lee's veterans would suddenly stop, thrust their caps into the air and give a big rebel yell. On the Salisbury where the crowds cheered as the band thundered out Confederate battle tunes, which is the last thing Lee wanted to hear. On the Charlotte where a bigger crowd awaited. Lee had refused to emerge from the train so far and he was horrified by all the attention.

Columbia, South Carolina, a holiday had been declared, stores were closed. There was a parade to the station in the pouring rain. Columbia was only a fifteen minute stop but when Lee looked out he knew he must emerge.

It's the last thing he needs to get into a rainstorm. Standing in the rain was a long line of his former officers Lee puts on his hat and coat and emerges. Little girls came forward to hand bouquets of flowers to the general.

The crowd wanted a speech but Lee would not concede and he simply doffed his hat. The band thundered on again and the veterans cheered themselves hoarse. After twenty-four hours the train arrives in Savannah. A reception was held at the hotel where crowds filed through for hours. Veterans on crutches, sweet little children dressed to their eyes. And many of them being introduced to the general with tiny cards in their fat little hands with their names. And you know what often times that name would be.

Can you imagine meeting somebody that's named after you? From Savannah Lee wrote two classic understatements in reporting to his wife. The old soldiers have greeted me very cordially and I do not think traveling in this way procures me much quiet and repose. As far as health Lee wrote I perceive no change in the stricture in my chest.

If I attempt to walk beyond a very slow gate the pain is always there. So Lee tries to go to church. Well it's Sunday. You got to remember ladies and gentlemen you don't party on Sunday.

Remember that's why we used to have blue laws. Nobody could cheer General Robert E. Lee because it was a Sunday. But because it was General Lee every hat was doffed in the air.

Right? One lady wrote, We regarded him with the greatest veneration. We had heard of God but here was General Lee. Now Lee arrives back in Lexington on May 28th.

He had been gone for two months and four days. This ladies and gentlemen is Robert E. Lee's office. The way he left it on October 12th, 1870.

If you go down to Lexington today to Washington and Lee University as it's known today that office is still there. He gets up. He has a vestry meeting at the Episcopal Church.

He was an Episcopalian. He gets back to the home and he steps inside. Lee pulls off his overcoat. He hangs it on the rack. He steps to the table. He begins to, he starts to say grace and nothing comes out of his mouth. He just freezes.

I can't describe it. I didn't see it obviously but the onlooker said that that pail came over him at that moment. Right there. Mrs. Lee got up. She walked over to him. She patted him on the hand. She goes, Oh dear. You look kind of tired.

Let me get you a cup of tea. And Lee sunk back into the chair. He'd already been seeing doctors but they couldn't do anything for him. You know they, heart disease if they knew, if they even knew it was heart disease. They couldn't do that. They couldn't do that.

Anything. So they sat down. He doesn't, he doesn't say anything. They retrieve his old army cot from upstairs and they bring it down and the parlor next to the dining room actually becomes the sick room. And he is going to lay there for a few days until he's going to run out of energy. And he will pass away.

He was sixty-three right there. I'd like to close if I could with a quote by Robert E. Lee. My experience of men has neither disposed me to think worse of them nor indisposed me to serve them. Nor in spite of failures which I lament, of errors which I now see and acknowledge, or of the present aspect of affairs do I despair of the future. The truth is this. The march of providence is so slow and our desires so impatient. The work of progress so immense and our means of aiding it so feeble. The life of humanity is so long, that of the individual so brief, that we often see only the ebb of the advancing wave and are thus discouraged. It is history that teaches us to hope. And a great job by Greg Hengler for putting that together.

And a special thanks to Gettysburg National Military Park Ranger Matt Atkinson. And it is so true. It is through history that we learn hope. And these things all happen slower than we'd like. Human life is brief. And that's why we tell these stories.

Context matters. The struggle, the movement in this country for a more perfect union. It continues. What did Lee think when he returned home and in that final statement? I think we all know what he thought. The story of Robert E. Lee, born on this day in 1807, here on Our American Stories.

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