Moonshine Runners and the Birth of NASCAR and “The Union is coming! The Union is coming!”

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Let's ride. This is Lee Habib, and this is Our American Stories, the show where America is the star and the American people. And to search for the Our American Stories podcast, go to the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Long before NASCAR's rampant commercialism lurks, a distant history of dark secrets that have been carefully hidden from view until now. Here to tell the true story behind NASCAR's hardscrabble, moonshine-fueled origins, is Neil Thompson, author of Driving with the Devil, Southern Moonshine, Detroit Wheels, and the Birth of NASCAR.

Let's take a listen. The idea for the story of Driving with the Devil started pretty soon after the attacks of 9-11. My wife and I were living in Baltimore at that time. I was working for the Baltimore Sun newspaper. We were ready for a change.

We were ready to move somewhere else and have a different kind of lifestyle. And at that same time, I found myself thinking a lot about a new book idea. I had just published my first book, a biography of the astronaut Alan Shepard, and found myself drawn to NASCAR.

But not NASCAR per se. Really what I wanted to explore was where did this come from? Where did this fascination with cars spinning around an oval at 200 miles an hour? Where did this start? Where did it really start?

I began digging into sort of the origins of the sport itself. That led me to learn a little bit about Bill France, whose family at that time owned the entire sport, which was a shock to me. But every version of the origin story of NASCAR that I came across started with Bill France in about 1948-1949. But many of these histories, articles, and books started that year and didn't go back prior to that and explain, well, how did it get to that point?

It didn't just come into existence from nothing that year, and it didn't come into existence surely because of this one man, Bill France. So what I really wanted to do was go back, go deep, and find out who were the other characters who played a role in creating this sport before it was even known as NASCAR. And so my wife and I, after 9-11, about a year afterwards, decided, let's move south.

Let's go live in the south where this story takes place. So we moved to North Carolina, to Asheville, North Carolina, and I spent the next couple of years driving throughout the south to Florida and Atlanta and northern Georgia and across North Carolina to track down the true pioneers of NASCAR, some of whom were still alive at that time, thankfully. My research led me, thankfully, to one of the overlooked pioneers of the entire sport, a guy named Raymond Parks, who was living in Atlanta at that time.

He was in his late 80s, early 90s, still showing up for work every day at the liquor store that he owned in North Atlanta, still dressed in his suit and tie with a dapper hat. And I was pointed toward Raymond as the guy who was really the overlooked hero of the early days of NASCAR, someone who never fully got the credit he deserved for playing a vital role in bringing that sport to life. When I first got to know him, though, he didn't want to talk about it, largely because the origins of the sport, at least as far as he was concerned, were directly tied to the moonshining business. Raymond was a successful moonshiner. He actually started moonshining at age 14, got to know another north Georgia moonshiner who offered him a job.

Raymond grew up poor on a farm in north Georgia outside Dawsonville. His dad was a drunk. There were 16 kids in the household and Raymond, who was one of the eldest, one day just walked off the farm at age 14 and started working as a moonshiners apprentice. Spent a little time in jail after that, but learned the ropes and over time became an incredibly successful moonshiner himself. Running moonshine, making moonshine, later he was so successful that he hired his cousins to do the driving for him.

And that whole enterprise of making and delivering moonshine is what eventually led to stock car racing. When I first met Raymond, though, he didn't want to talk about all that. He felt like that was part of the past. He was, you know, kind of a modest, quiet guy, at least at the age when I met him. So I just kept showing up at his office saying, OK, you don't want to talk about it. That's fine.

I'll come back next week and we'll just chat about other things. Little by little, I kind of earned his confidence. And little by little, he started opening up to me and started sharing with me the story of his role in creating NASCAR. And it was just a remarkable story of dirt poor North Georgia kids trying to find a better life for themselves. You know, so many of them grew up poor and their prospects were to continue working on their family farm or maybe get a job at the local mill for a few dollars more. But a lot of these kids wanted more. They wanted adventure.

They wanted to escape. Once they got introduced to cars and moonshining, they wanted speed and money and a different version of success. And moonshining and then stock car racing gave them that they gave them something that they hadn't previously had access to.

And Raymond is a perfect example of that. But I'll never forget being in his office one day when he reluctantly pulls out a couple of old photo albums and starts leafing through them. And I got shivers up my spine because he starts showing me photos that really told the story of early stock car racing in the early days of NASCAR and told the story of Raymond Parks his role in creating that sport.

So he's showing me pictures of old races, terrible car wrecks, photos of the corpse of his cousin Lloyd C, who was killed in a moonshining accident, photos of red vote, the foul mouth mechanic who worked on Raymond Parks's cars, both his moonshine cars and later his stock cars and his race cars. These photos were just a thrilling sort of recapturing of that moment in time when NASCAR didn't even exist. It was just sort of this humble sport where these moonshiner kids were having fun on the weekends, racing each other out of cow pastures. And little by little, those raggedy races evolved into what we later came to know as stock car racing and then NASCAR.

And you've been listening to author Neil Thompson tell the story of his own story about what prompted him to write this book, which was well with so many writers. Just a question. How did NASCAR really start? How did the sport start before there was ever NASCAR and this legend named Bill France?

It all started with moonshiner kids racing each other out in cow pastures. When we come back, more of the story of moonshine runners and the birth of NASCAR here on Our American Stories. Lee Habib here, the host of Our American Stories. Every day on this show, we're bringing inspiring stories from across this great country, stories from our big cities and small towns.

But we truly can't do the show without you. Our stories are free to listen to, but they're not free to make. If you love what you hear, go to our American stories dot com and click the donate button. Give a little give a lot.

Go to our American stories dot com and give. Hey, you guys, this is Tori and Jenny with the 9 0 2 1 OMG podcast. We have such a special episode brought to you by nerd tech O.D.T.. We recorded it at I heart radio's 10th pole event, Wango Tango. Did you know that nerd tech O.D.T. remejipants, 75 milligrams can help migraine sufferers still attend such an exciting event like Wango Tango?

It's true. I had one that night and I took my nerd tech O.D.T. and I was present and had an amazing time.

Here's a little glimpse of our conversation with some of our closest friends. This episode was brought to you by nerd tech O.D.T. remejipants, 75 milligrams. Life with migraine attacks can mean missing out on big moments with friends and family.

But thankfully, nerd tech O.D.T. remejipants, 75 milligrams is the only medication that is proven to treat a migraine attack and prevent episodic migraines in adults. So lively events like Wango Tango don't have to be missed. Soon millions will make Medicare coverage decisions for next year, and UnitedHealthcare can help you feel confident about your choices. For those eligible, Medicare annual enrollment runs from October 15th through December 7th. If you're working past age 65, you might be able to delay Medicare enrollment depending on your employer coverage.

It can seem confusing, but it doesn't have to be. Visit UHCmedicarehealthplans.com to learn more. UnitedHealthcare, helping people live healthier lives. I know everything there is to know about running a coffee shop, but for small business insurance, I need my State Farm agent. They make sure my business stays piping hot and I stay cool and confident. See, they're small business owners, too, so they know how to help you best. State Farm is in your corner and on it. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Call your local State Farm agent for a quote today. And we continue with our American stories and Neil Thompson, author of Driving with the Devil, Southern Moonshine, Detroit Wheels, and the Birth of NASCAR. Let's return to Neil with more of the story. The moonshine that these guys were making and delivering was essentially corn whiskey. It was a version of the whiskey that had come to America from the Irish and Scots-Irish immigrants who came here and then sort of gravitated toward the south and ended up in the hills and hollers of North Carolina and Georgia and other southern states where a lot of these farmers learned that by growing corn and turning that corn into whiskey, they could make more by selling the liquid product of that agricultural output rather than just becoming straight up farmers. And so moonshine became an important component of the economy of the south going way back to the 1800s and then on into the early 1900s.

There were tax issues. You know, the U.S. government over time kept making attempts to tax this product, and obviously the moonshiners resisted that, which is what led to sort of this cat and mouse game that evolved between the moonshiners delivering their, you know, agricultural product as they viewed it to market or to their customers in the cities for the most part, and then the tax agents, the revenue agents trying to track them down and arrest them and charge them with tax fraud. So the term moonshine came from the practice of making this whiskey in the dead of night to avoid detection, to avoid setting off any alarms by, you know, revenue agents seeing the smoke rise from these stills that were mainly set up deep in the woods next to a stream.

They needed fresh water for these things. So by operating in the middle of the night under the moonlight, that's where the term moonshine evolved from. And then the term bootlegger came from the concept that by one of the ways that these guys would try and hide their liquor would be in a flask that was hidden inside their boot.

And in time, the term bootlegger evolved just to sort of encompass all of the efforts to make and sell illegal whiskey throughout the south and elsewhere. In time, these moonshiners learned that the best means of transporting their product, the moonshine, jars of moonshine packed tightly into crates, was a Ford V8 coupe. Sort of the explosion of the moonshining trade in the early decades of the 1900s coincided with the evolution of the automobile. So you see the Ford V8s becoming more and more sophisticated.

The moonshiners realized this was the perfect car for delivering moonshine because it had a great suspension, it was fast, and it was easy to work on. So you also see the beginnings of car mechanics, who later became race car mechanics, figuring out how to take apart Ford's engines and put them back together and add modifications and bore out the cylinders and do these other things to make them even faster than they were meant to be and even more sort of solid and reliable than they were designed to be. I, through Raymond Parks, got to become acquainted with his trusted mechanic, Red Vogt, who had a garage in downtown Atlanta and was sort of a mad scientist when it came to Fords, in particular other cars as well, but mainly Fords. He would try little weird modifications that no one else had thought of with the exhaust and the engine and the ratio of air to fuel. He was just a mad genius and learned to make these cars go faster than they were ever meant to go.

He also, on the side, sometimes worked for the cops and the revenue agents, but didn't put as much effort into their cars as he did the moonshiners and those cars. And so little by little, these cars, the drivers are learning to drive them faster, the mechanics are making them go faster, and then on weekends, a lot of these moonshiners start getting together to race each other, see who has the fastest moonshining car. Some of the early races were incredibly modest. They were just at a cow field somewhere or a field, farmer's field, and one car would go out and sort of tear up an oval in the grass and that would be the racetrack.

That was it. They'd line up, they'd race each other, and just for bragging rights, they would see who had the fastest car. In time, these races started to attract crowds. I mean, there weren't any professional sports in the South at that time.

It would take years before the first professional sports team, the Atlanta Braves, came to Atlanta in 1965. So in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, there were college sports, but not really the type of sport where you'd go to an auditorium and watch a game or a stadium and watch a game. Once these stock car races started getting up and underway and word spread and newspapers started covering these events, then they did start to attract crowds. They put up bleachers next to the oval track.

They started building concessions and savvy businessmen started to learn how to make a little bit of money off these, putting a fence around the whole thing and charging admission fees. So what these early races were, we call NASCAR stock car racing today, but at that time, these stock cars really were just off-the-rack cars that anyone could buy at their local dealer. That's where the term came from, stock. They were supposed to be just the stock that came with the car, no modifications. Of course, that concept of being, quote, strictly stock was thrown out the window right off the bat because of these modifications that the moonshine mechanics started making to the cars. Very quickly, these quote-unquote stock cars became highly modified, highly customized cars that bore, at least on the outside, some resemblance to the cars you'd see on the dealer's lot, but on the inside were very different machines altogether. So by looking exactly like any other car that, you know, your parents would drive to a church that Sunday, these cars were intended to look normal so that they didn't attract the attention of the revenue agents so that they could fit in once they got to town.

But again, under the hood, that engine was way more powerful than any regular stock car that anyone else in the neighborhood had. Late 1830s into 1940, the sport's progressing, and Raymond Parks is now becoming what in future years would be described as the first team owner of stock car racing. He kind of pulls together two of his cousins, Handsome Roy Hall and Quiet Lloyd C., who were both moonshine drivers for him, and they are just wonderful drivers because they've learned how to drive on the back roads of Georgia to escape the revenue agents. So those two are part of Raymond Parks' team, as is Red Vote the mechanic. So together, this team starts traveling through the South, visiting other races, and having enormous success as the sport is getting up and running. Unfortunately, though, Roy Hall's a bit of a scamp.

He's always getting in trouble, spends time in jail. And then Lloyd C., who is much quieter and sort of a good kid, gets caught up in this bizarre moonshining argument with one of his cousins who shoots and kills him, and Lloyd C. is dead sometime in 1940. And then a year later, the entire sport comes grinding to a halt as America gets involved in World War II. A lot of the characters in my book and in the story of the evolution of NASCAR spent time serving in World War II. Raymond Parks served at the Battle of the Bulge.

But when these guys come back home, most of them to the South, and start to pick up the pieces of stock car racing, and they came back very hungry to get back on the racetrack and take the sport to the next level. At this time, we get introduced to some of the new characters on the scene, one of whom is named Red Byron. There were two reds in this book, Red Vote and Red Byron. So Red Byron served in a B-24 airplane, mainly serving up on the Aleutian Islands off the Alaskan coast. His plane gets shot down, among many that were shot down at that time, and they sort of crash land, and Red Byron ends up with just a ruined left leg. Shrapnel, the doctors actually wanted to amputate his leg, and he said, no, don't touch it.

I'm a race car driver, I need that leg. And you've been listening to Neil Thompson tell a heck of a story. Moonshine was basically corn whiskey, he said. And let's face it, the farmers could make more money selling a liquefied version of their crop than the actual crop. And moonshining explodes because, well, automobile production explodes in this country, too, and leave it to men and their toys.

Soon, well, guys are modifying these cars to, well, outrun federales, revenue agents, and frankly, to just outrun themselves and have fun. Pretty soon they're competing in cow pastures, and the next thing you know, people are showing up because, well, the South had no professional sports. This became the sport of the South.

World War II comes, so many of these guys put on a different suit and go and fight for their country, only to come back hungrier for the action and for the sport they'd created. Before we come back, more of this remarkable story, moonshine runners and the birth of NASCAR here on Our American Stories. 75 milligrams can help migraine sufferers still attend such an exciting event like Wango Tango.

It's true. I had one that night and I took my NURTEC ODT and I was present and had an amazing time. Here's a little glimpse of our conversation with some of our closest friends. This episode was brought to you by NURTEC ODT Remedipant 75 milligrams. Life with migraine attacks can mean missing out on big moments with friends and family.

But thankfully, NURTEC ODT Remedipant 75 milligrams is the only medication that is proven to treat a migraine attack and prevent episodic migraines in adults. So lively events like Wango Tango don't have to be missed. Soon millions will make Medicare coverage decisions for next year. And UnitedHealthcare can help you feel confident about your choices. For those eligible, Medicare annual enrollment runs from October 15th through December 7th. If you're working past age 65, you might be able to delay Medicare enrollment depending on your employer coverage.

It can seem confusing, but it doesn't have to be. Visit uhcmedicarehealthplans.com to learn more. UnitedHealthcare.

Helping people live healthier lives. I know everything there is to know about running a coffee shop. But for small business insurance, I need my State Farm agent. They make sure my business stays piping hot.

And I stay cool and confident. See, they're small business owners too, so they know how to help you best. State Farm is in your corner and on it. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Call your local State Farm agent for a quote today. And we continue with Our American Stories. I'm Daniel Thompson, author of Driving with the Devil, Southern Moonshine, Detroit Wheels, and the Birth of NASCAR.

Let's continue with the story. So Red Byron, because he had this damaged leg discovered early on once he was back on the track, that he couldn't drive the way he was used to driving because his left leg didn't have strength and he just couldn't maneuver the clutch pedal the way he needed to to be competitive. So he talked to Red Vote about it and they came up with a fix, which was for Red Vote to weld two pins onto the clutch pedal so that Red Byron, whose leg was often in a brace, could lift up his left leg and put the boot of his left leg into this space between these two pins on the clutch pedal. And then when he needed to change gears, instead of putting pressure on that leg, which didn't have much strength to it, he would pivot the bottom half of his body, which will allow him to depress and release the clutch pedal and change gears.

I don't think Red Vote or Raymond Parks thought it would work, but in time Red Byron got used to it and realized, you know, this works, I can do it. And he started to win race after race after race. As we get into 1948 and stock car racing is really up and running and NASCAR is a formal organization now, Red Byron becomes the first champion of that first year of NASCAR.

Some people look at 1949 as the more official first year of NASCAR because that year they implemented new standards for these strictly stock cars. But Red Byron wins that year as well. So the first two years of NASCAR's existence were won by this crippled war veteran with a bad leg that was essentially strapped into his clutch pedal. He could barely walk but could win race after race and become champion two years in a row.

The cast of characters at this time is just super colorful and bizarre, you know, guys with names like Goober and Soapy and Speedy and One Eye. But Red Byron was different from that. He was a little bit nerdy, he was thoughtful, he was a big reader, he was quieter. He wasn't a big partier or drinker like some of the other guys were. He didn't get into fights like many of them did.

But behind the wheel he was, again, fearless and an incredible competitor. As the sport continues to find its footing again after World War II, you get into a number of races through 1946, but 1947 is when it really starts to pick up speed again. The end of 1947 is when a group of racers, Raymond Parks, Red Vote, Red Byron, and then Bill France, who was based in Daytona Beach. They all get together down in Daytona Beach, sort of called there by Bill France, to have a meeting to figure out how are we going to organize this sport now that we're back up and running. What are the rules?

What's the point system? Who's going to oversee these different races and kind of make things a little bit more consistent and cohesive to compete with other organizations that were trying to oversee different types of racing at that time, like the AAA. So there's this famous meeting that occurs in December of 1947, and a lot of these drivers, M. Raymond Parks, the moonshine runner turned businessman, they come up with a system of rules and create an actual sport, National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing.

The name came from Red Vote, the mechanic, who never fully got credit for the role he played in figuring out what the rules were and coming up with that name and the acronym. But at the end of that meeting, December of 1947, it was actually two days, at the end of the second day of the meeting, Bill France had himself named president of NASCAR. A lot of the other guys said, yeah, go ahead, Bill, you go ahead and run it.

We're not interested. We just want to race and make money and go fast. Bill France was a little bit more business minded and also a little bit power hungry and essentially had himself named the president of NASCAR and over the next couple of years would end up becoming the full owner of the entire sport, which subsequently would be owned by his family for many decades moving forward. I think a lot of the early drivers and others who were involved in the sport, including Raymond Parks, because I talked to him about it, felt betrayed by France.

They were all in it together, but France kind of took over and ran with it and pushed them all aside. And when the sport started to become even more popular than any of them could have imagined and started to make some real money, none of the early pioneers and actual founders of the sport saw any of that money or got any benefit from the role they played. One dynamic that was part of stock car racing from the very beginning was trying to get racers to follow any kind of rules. You know, one way to get a hillbilly to do something is to tell him not to do it. And that sort of unspoken rule applied to a lot of the limits that NASCAR tried to place on what drivers could and couldn't do. You know, if they told them to drive with a seat belt, they would drive without a seat belt. If they told them, you know, go easy on the other guy's car, they would slam into the other guy's car. It really was a wild and often lawless period of time for stock car racing. And this is something that Bill France over time tried to clean up and get racers to toe the line and to follow the rules. But because so many of the early racers were moonshiners and were sort of these rebellious southern boys, Bill France had a really hard time keeping them in line. And I think over time that became sort of a tension in the sport and part of the dynamic, part of what fans loved, which was, you know, rebellious drivers breaking the rules. And then on the other hand, you have the official NASCAR folks led by Bill France trying to tighten things up and make things cleaner and more formalized and more family friendly.

And I think that tension continued for decades to come. And now probably that rebellious aspect of the sport is mostly gone. Moving ahead to more recent times, NASCAR's fan base doubled in the 1990s and continued to grow at 10 or more percent per year. For a period of time, it was the fastest growing sport in America, rising to number two. And so much of the sport became about marketing.

Revenues averaged three billion dollars a year and were on the rise. NASCAR TV ratings are double those of baseball, basketball and hockey. Half of NASCAR's viewers are women today. And NASCAR events, the races themselves, are just wildly popular bacchanals, you know, just attendance of, you know, one to two hundred thousand at some of these races. Massive people showing up for these races and staying there for five days in a row, well beyond before and after, you know, a few hours of the big left turn during race day.

Primetime viewership on not just ESPN, but network sports. And the drivers of today are millionaires. You know, they're living in mansions and throughout the south, they're celebrities, they're superstars, they date supermodels, walk up and down any supermarket and you see NASCAR logos and ads emblazoned on just about every package you can find. So it's just exploded, which to me is remarkable that it started from such humble roots with just these poor southern boys trying to have some fun. And a terrific job on the production by Greg Hengler and a special thanks to Neil Thompson, author of Driving with the Devil, Southern Moonshine, Detroit Wheels and The Birth of NASCAR. And boy, we meet some real characters.

Fred Byron comes to mind. Injured in flight combat in the Aleutian Islands in World War Two and nearly crippled, he still manages to win the unofficial and first official NASCAR championship. And that meeting in 1947, two days in Daytona Beach, is where NASCAR gets formed.

They were trying to solve a problem, getting the drivers to follow the rules. No simple task when you're dealing with a bunch of wild, rebellious southern boys. Bill France managed to do that. To some, he's a hero.

To others, well, sort of a goat. Either way, NASCAR has permanently changed, now one of the top grossing sports in the country, and it routinely beats in the ratings baseball and football. Who could have ever imagined? The story of NASCAR, moonshine and so much more.

In a way, the story of America here on Our American Stories. Hey, you guys, this is Tori and Jenny with the 9021 OMG podcast. We have such a special episode brought to you by NERTEC ODT. We recorded it at I Heart Radio's 10th Poll event, Wango Tango. Did you know that NERTEC ODT Remedipant 75 mg can help migraine sufferers still attend such an exciting event like Wango Tango? It's true. I had one that night and I took my NERTEC ODT and I was present and had an amazing time. Here's a little glimpse of our conversation with some of our closest friends. This episode was brought to you by NERTEC ODT Remedipant 75 mg. Life with migraine attacks can mean missing out on big moments with friends and family.

But thankfully, NERTEC ODT Remedipant 75 mg is the only medication that is proven to treat a migraine attack and prevent episodic migraines in adults. So lively events like Wango Tango don't have to be missed. Soon millions will make Medicare coverage decisions for next year, and UnitedHealthcare can help you feel confident about your choices. For those eligible, Medicare Annual Enrollment runs from October 15th through December 7th. If you're working past age 65, you might be able to delay Medicare enrollment depending on your employer coverage.

It can seem confusing, but it doesn't have to be. Visit uhcmedicarehealthplans.com to learn more. UnitedHealthcare.

Helping people live healthier lives. I know everything there is to know about running a coffee shop, but for small business insurance, I need my State Farm agent. They make sure my business stays piping hot, and I stay cool and confident. See, they're small business owners too, so they know how to help you best. State Farm is in your corner and on it. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Call your local State Farm agent for a quote today. This is Our American Stories, and up next, a story from Horst Schulz, who has told quite a number of stories here on this show. He's the co-founder of the Ritz-Carlton, and he's the author of Excellence Wins, a no-nonsense guide to becoming the best in a world of compromise. And today, Robbie brings us a story about Horst's first experience as a general manager of a hotel in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I was warned. As soon as I took the job, people called me and said, oh my goodness, Pittsburgh, you must be kidding me. It's the worst place to work because there is a union that is truly, you cannot work with. Well, so what? I can work. I have thick skin.

The first day at work, I was sitting in my office for the first time and general manager of a hotel. The secretary comes around and the union is coming. So, let him come, come in. And here they come with six people.

Five of them sit in chairs, facing me around. One of them, an older gentleman who incidentally had no hair, no hair brows, nothing, and talked like a character in a movie. He put his back to me, and he said to us, ask him if he ever saw a car blown up. That was his introduction. And I said, car blown up?

No. And he half turned around to me and said, I meant with somebody in it. There was a warning to me. And I was stunned, of course.

And I said, what does that all mean? And they left after giving me several warnings to treat our people properly. And I kept on saying, they're my people too.

They're ours. They're angry. Look at me angry. Obviously, it was clear they wanted to intimidate me from day one. And this went on, and by the way, that union boss, the baldy, he showed up every day at one o'clock, every single day, five days a week. He showed up in the office in a pool of secretaries, and he screamed, where is the... And there are some bad words, which was me looking for me. Every day. He knew where my office is, but he came and screamed, where is the... And then he met with me and exasperated me about anything that happened.

It was just unbelievable. And that lasted several months. And one day, he didn't show up.

So what's happening? I waited always at one o'clock. I knew he would be there, and I didn't want to have him pick a scene than there was already every day. I assembled very fast my key execs and said, anything happened? Well, something happened with Susie or whatever. Whoever it was, I forgot. So I ran to the union hall, which was eight blocks away, and walked in. And frankly, I said the same thing that they said, where are the... And I used the same words. And he said, you can't go in there. I said, but where are they?

They're in an executive conference. I said, like heck, I can't go in there. And I walked in the door and said, where the... are you? I was waiting for you. We have a meeting, and you don't show up.

What's the matter with you? You can't be in here. I said, like heck, I can't be. We have a meeting. You didn't show up. I want to have our meeting. Finally, they said, we'll talk about tomorrow. And I left.

And a couple of years later, when I left, by that time, I got to Northern Wall. One of the people in there that was in the room said, when you left, we said, the SOB likes it, because they want me to be intimidated. Now they realize he is enjoying it.

We have to have a different approach. And the relationship became very good. They started to respect. We had, we became in the meantime, a very busy hotel.

It was a terrible hotel before. We were very busy, highly rated, the highest rated in Pittsburgh. The employees were happy. They made money suddenly. We hired more people. So there was a lot of respect by the time I left. But the unions were great. It took a while.

I came in June, by Christmas. Hyatt had a philosophy to give every employee a turkey for Christmas. So we gave every employee a turkey. And suddenly the union struck us that afternoon, pulled out. So why?

Because you're priming our employees. That's how crazy it was. I know this is hard to believe. This is hard to comprehend. That's how crazy it was. It was unbelievable. But we won. And I had a sensational labor lawyer, local. He kept on reminding me.

He kept on reminding me, nearly every day, host. Take three steps forward. And they don't take two, three quarters back. Even if you keep one tenth of a quarter of a step, you win. Slowly win. You don't think you can take three steps forward and stonewall there. You're going to lose. You're going to be finished. And that's what we did.

Very slowly. I didn't let anybody else deal with the union but myself. But we did. And you have to give them credit. They sought, they started to respect. And I kept on saying to myself, come on, as tough as they play, it's a game. They're human beings. In the end, they will appreciate if you do things right.

They can't help it. And so will the employees will tell them. But funny, another story in the union story. I was there the first weekend. I walked through the lobby and the doorman said, hey, come here to me. I'm the new general manager. Hey, he waved the finger to me.

Hey, come here. I said, yes. And he was kind of squeezing something in his hands. And he said, you know what I have in my hand?

I said, no. Obviously he was fascinated by this. What happened? He opened up. He had a roll of pennies.

I have a roll of pennies. You know why? I said, why? He said, if I crack somebody in the face with that, I'll break that show.

I didn't know what that meant. But as I talked to him and then he said, I want to tell you something. If you play ball with us, this is a doorman talking to me, the new general manager.

If you play ball with us, you'll be OK. Just play ball with us and you'll be OK. And I said, oh, thank you. But as I talked to him, I saw his uniforms had several small holes. Now, what should I expect from an employee whom I leadership, whom I give a uniform with holes in it? In that moment, I have established the standard there. And it was leadership that created this environment. And it was my business now to change it.

And we did. Well, management did what was there was, of course, was not leadership. It was management. There's a difference between management and leadership. Management, of course, makes things happen. Management works on processes, et cetera, et cetera. But leadership takes people toward a destination, a destination that is of excellence for all concerned. Leadership has a great vision, but that vision is good not only for management, not only for the investors, but good for the employees, too. And then you align your employees, too, with that vision.

And that's one of the sad things in management. We all talk about alignment, and that's a buzzword right now. Alignment.

I mean, I see it all the time. Mind you, I work with a number of excellent companies. I work around the world globally still consulting. And the talk is always alignment. And when you go to an employee and say, gee, you are an associate.

Oh, that sounds good, isn't it? You're an associate. Now, what is the thinking of this company? What's the vision of the company?

Nobody knows. But the company talks about alignment. Alignment is very simply if every employee understands the vision of the company, and every employee understands the motive of that vision, and everybody understands how the individual motives connects to the motives of the organization. In other words, the vision is truly good for all concerned. And if you set the vision as an organization, you have to agonize, is this good for all concerned? Is it good for the investor?

Of course. If it's good for the customer, it has to be. Is it good for the employee?

It must be. And is it good for society as a whole? Only then can that vision be a real vision for the organization. But then you have to let everybody know. And if everybody knows, and everybody knows the expectation of the customer, now you have an aligned workforce.

Otherwise, it's on your rhetoric. Special thanks to Horst for sharing his story. And what a story he told about that doorman. Because, my goodness, any new general manager, most that I know, would have just gotten right back in that guy's face and let him know who was boss. And he had sensed there was some kind of real leadership problem. And he looked at that uniform, saw the holes in it, and he knew that there was a different way and a path forward. And he developed relationships with these guys. He didn't do what most would have done, which is either acquiesce or fight. There was a third way.

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