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Let's get on sensational! The opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics. Ilya Maladin, redefining the sport. Friday, February 6th on NBC and Peacock. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously.
On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high-free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the SP 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks.
Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com/slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com/slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc., member of FINRA and SIPC.
Advisory Services by Public Advisors LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com/slash disclosures. Yeah.
Hey, this is U.S. Olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull. And I'm U.S. Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull. As athletes, our lives are about having a clear path.
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Mm. This is Lee Habib, and this is Our American Stories. Today, we're used to seeing public figures lend their names and their faces to the products we buy. From magazine ads to radio spots to television commercials, celebrity endorsements have long shaped American consumer culture. But there was a time not all that long ago when this kind of marketing didn't exist.
And yet, one company figured out the power of celebrity influence long before the rest of the world had a name for it, and that company. Who was Maybelline? Joining us with the story of Sherry Williams, the great niece of Maybelline's founder, who just happened to be a man. Tom Lyle Williams. Let's get into the story.
My great uncle was born in 1896. And about the time he was 15, He bought a bicycle and he tore it down, he painted it. And he put it in the classifieds of the police gazette. And he got 50 offers. To buy the bike.
for $50, which seems insane. He sold the bike and he said That's what I want to do for the rest of my life is I want to make advertising my profession.
Well, the whole town in Morganfield, Kentucky, back at that time just thought he was a dreamer. The only thing really open for him was to be a farmer or maybe a minister. But I He was coming up with these high pollutant ideas that did not register at all. But he still went forward and the first things that he decided to sell was gag gifts.
So he did pretty good on that. You know, he made some money on that. But then after a while, how many times can you reorder a gag gift?
So then he decided, okay, well, that didn't work too good, so I'm going to buy vegetables and send them to the parts of the country that don't get fresh vegetables.
Well, he, you know, found a farmer and did all that. was doing very, very well, except for he didn't uh count the shipping. how much shipping was going to add to it. And so that uh pretty much ruined that idea. He moved to Chicago where his brother Noel was working in the railroad.
And so Tom Lyle asked if he could come and stay with him and kind of figure out what to do. You know, Chicago is a much bigger place than little Morganfield, Kentucky, with about maybe 1,500 people there.
So anyway, he goes and he works at Sears and gets a job in the advertising department where he learns to write little ads and put things in the catalog and learn so much from that. that he said, if I could only just think of something that people would reorder. And then one night he comes home. His sister Mabel had come up to Chicago to help. And he sees Mabel putting something on her eyelashes and eyebrows because she had cinched them.
She put some Vaseline over her little eyebrows and And what was left of her eyelashes. And then she burnt a cork. and she kind of went over it a little bit with her finger And he walked in and he said, Oh, my gosh, Mabel, you look like You look like the stars in the movies, in the silent films. And she says, Oh, yes, well, you know, I got this idea in a movie magazine. And he said Is there anything like that out on the market?
She says, I don't think so. They have rouge and powder. but nothing for the eyes, because the eyes were the one feature of the face that had been completely ignored. Because it was considered vanity. You know, actresses, prostitutes, but not wonderful little women.
It was the Victorian era. And good, righteous, religious ladies would never be caught with anything on their face. Uh So Tom Lyell says I'm gonna go to my buddies who has a chemistry set, and we're gonna see if we can kind of like, you know, match up what you've done. And they did. But it wasn't enough.
They wound up having to go to a real chemist and formulate the first product, which they call Lash Brow Ean. and it didn't have any darkener in it yet. He advertised it as making your eyelashes healthy. and grow and your eyebrows too.
Well, women loved it, and it gave it a little bit of sheen.
So, there it was, you know, a little bit of the eyes were standing out. And the thing of it was, though, he got it in a lawsuit over the name Lash Brow Eam because there had already been a company out called Lash Lore.
So I don't know if he had to pay money to him or what, but he took the name off the market and walks in and says, you know, Mabel, I think I want to name the company after you. Mabel Lean. Then he formulated his first company called May Bell Laboratories. When he was 19 years old, this was all happening. And he put his first little product out there with darkener.
And that was the first Maybelline product, which was a little red box. You open it up, there's a little mirror, there's a little picture of how to use the product. You need a little brush that you, you know, kind of like fit on it a little bit. and then made their eyelashes and eyebrows a little darker.
Well, that was it. Before you know it, the whole family sold the farm, moved up to Chicago, and they all worked together to get this product out. They melted it in a little pot. A teapot. and each of them poured it into the pins.
And pretty soon the post office was saying, we can't handle this anymore. You know, this is causing a problem with all of these Letters coming in wanting to buy Maybelline, which was great, and it was they were coming in with nickels and dimes pasted to it. And the family was, you know, was bringing all this stuff in with a wheelbarrow.
Okay. Picking up the product, bringing it back to the house, opening it up, taking the nickels and dimes off that had been stuck on with. I'm not kidding you, like gum. And before you know it, the things started just going crazy and Tom Wilde left Chicago. He had met his lifetime partner, Emery Shaver, and they moved to the Hollywood Hills and bought Rudolph Valentino's villa.
Yeah. And Other companies like Max Factor, who really was a makeup artist at the studios. Had to show that he was a family man. There'd always be pictures of him with his family, his kids. Revson was also Advertising himself, Revlon, with himself at the polo fields, real macho guy.
But Tom Lyle, he and Emery live a cloistered life. While everybody was out advertising their products with their names and pictures. He was concentrated on contracting movie stars. The biggest movie stars in Hollywood represented Maybelline. Why everybody's, you know, promoting themselves.
He contacted the silent builder stars through the advertising agency at MGM Studios. And Contracted these people privately. He never exploited himself. It was always just the product. Just the name Maybelline was out there, but nobody knew who was behind it.
They thought it was just some corporation, some company. And so he hired his first model Which was actually silent film star Harold Lloyd's wife, Mildred Lloyd. And that was his first beautiful model. who endorsed Maybelline. It was the first time that women were beginning to see how magnificent the eyes were.
Women started to buy it more out of the classified. And Maybelline sent the product to them. wrapped in brown paper.
so that nobody would know. that they were actually buying something that would be for the eyes. Husbands threatened to divorce their wives. if they wore eye makeup.
So it had to come incognito. But More and more women were going to the movies and more and more the stars were having a close-up of their eyes. But the genius was to have these stars endorsed. I recommend Maybelline because it gives my eyes the sparkle. Did it track?
And Maybelline, by the time, I mean, but 1929 was, you know, already a million-dollar company. And The depression hit. And we've been listening to Sherry Williams, the great niece of Maybelline's founder, Tom Lyle Williams. Influencer marketing before anyone had ever thought of it. And when we come back, More of the story of Maybelline's founder, Tom Lyle Williams, here on Our American Stories.
Ready to change your life for just $2 a day? Orange Theory Fitness delivers one-hour workouts that combine strength and cardio to help you burn fat, build muscle, and feel unstoppable. Right now, get a full month of unlimited classes for just $62. Don't wait, this offer ends soon. Visit orangetheory.com or your local studio and start your transformation today.
Offer ends January 31st, 2026. New members only, premier membership, performance monitor, and monthly billing required. Discount applies to first month only. Other terms apply. See studio for details.
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Kick off the Winter Olympics in style with the opening ceremony from Italy, featuring a special performance by Mariah Carey. Celebrate the greatest athletes from around the globe as they come together to go for gold. Let's see for six. The opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics. Ilya Maladin redefining the sport.
Friday, February 6th on NBC and Peacock. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high-free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work.
It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the SP 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com/slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com/slash podcast.
Paid for by Public Investing. Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory Services by Public Advisors LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.
Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Yeah. And we return to our American stories and to Sherry Williams, the great niece of Tom Lyle Williams, the founder of the company Maybelline. And now we jump back to 1929. where our story continues.
The depression hit. And now businesses were going out. Tom Lau was actually buying up any other little mascara. company that might be taking root. He bought them all up.
So there was no competition in those days with Maybelline. But the problem was When the bank closed, he lost all of his money.
So then he decided the best thing to do now is take it out of the classifieds and put it into the dime stores. Yeah. Once it went into the dime stores in the 1930s, women who were now going to talkies, that's what they called them in those days, And seeing really beautiful displays of costumes, you know, how it was in the 1930s. Spectacular, and women now could go right into the drugstore and buy their products. No more being scared that it's going to come in the mail and someone might see it.
And by 1937, Maybelline was really, I mean, they were going to the moon. The products were just selling. He came out with the most beautiful Art Deco ads that were done. Like watercolor. And you can find those too.
They're magnificent. You could actually frame them. They are so beautiful. The first one that came out was a little one and a half inch add. in the uh classifieds in the police gazette.
and it had the original Maybelline Girl. She's not the vamp. She's the virginal one. And she is just so wholesome looking. She hadn't bobbed her hair yet.
It was all up like a Gibson girl. And she was the first one to introduce Maybelline to th the public. And so it came in real soft like that, real gentle, you know. And then the vamp came out. And then she was She had the short hair, you know.
And she was the one that slowly introduced women to how they can. charm with their eyes. You can use your eyes. You don't even need to talk. Right?
You can just Just use your eyes to fascinate him. And that was one of the things that he always did: talk about how the eyes can fascinate, how the eyes can charm, how the eyes can be mysterious.
So he was also planting those thoughts in women's minds, you know. Oh, are you actually saying that I can flirt with my eyes? Oh, no, no, that could never be. And yet, isn't that what happened? In the quiet moments there are no words.
The important things you say with your eyes. Make sure your eyes are eloquent. Beautiful. Make sure with Maybelline, the eye makeup that brings out hidden loveliness. We all learn to use our eyes to look up and look down and look to the side and, you know, act very mysterious.
You don't even need to talk. Just use your eyes. What will your eyes say to him tonight? Will they be silent or will they be beautifully eloquent with Maybelline? The finest in eye makeup and sensibly priced is always Maybelline.
So now on television. Tom Lyle was the first cosmetic company to have ads, Maybelline ads on T V. He invested every dime that he made back into the company. And so here we are in the 50s now, just he, Maybelline, you can't stop it. It's just on fire.
All the guys make eyes at a girl whose eyes are lovely with Maybelline. Use Maybelline. Birdie man, you have lovely eyes.
So that's what all his ads were, and then of course the big endorsements came. with the movie stars actually signing the ad and they were usually on the back of a movie magazine and women would take them and frame them. 'Cause they were eight by tens, you know? And they were beautiful of Joan Crawford or Betty Grable, whatever big star was happening at the time.
So now people were putting them in the room or putting them up on their wall. It was like they were doing the advertising for him. That's what made Maybelline great. It wasn't so much the product. It was the advertising.
He just said, I don't want to be remembered as the man who invented makeup. Makeup's been around since Cleopatra. But I want to be remembered as the king of advertising. And that is what the genius is behind Maybelline, and it still is. Look at it today, it's the ads.
Maybe she's Born with it. Uh maybe it's Maybe Tom Lael was overkill. Overkill on constant constant and hitting target markets. Like in the thirties he would say things like, um, It's not your mother's makeup anymore. In other words, we're not flappers anymore.
we have the chic bob and we have the we have the really cool fashion and and the Art Deco in the background and Valentino and you know, so that's what he would do. He would really psychologically put these things in the mind of the audience. And that was his secret: to put all the money back into the ads and to pay the different stars. And the reason Maybelline was so successful was he He was old-fashioned, you know. He was born before the turn of the century.
He lived in a little one-horse town. His family was very humble. He didn't have a college education. And he was able to live very meagerly. That company was like a child to him.
You know, you know how you give your children everything, no matter what, they get it, they get you spoiled.
So Tom Mil believed that You didn't get in debt. He didn't believe in living above your means. He wouldn't h buy a car unless he could pay cash for it. And this is when he was really young. he wouldn't buy the Maybelline building.
you know, pay cash for it.
so that it kept him fluent and solvent to keep the company going. He says, you know, I only give myself. Any income? A hundred thousand a year. Everything else goes back into the company.
He's not out partying and drinking because he wasn't out in the world anyway, so he lived this life. you know, behind the gates and he did have parties and stuff, but he he was he was practical. That's all I can say. He didn't blow it all on himself. If you aren't out shopping every minute, and traveling then you're thinking of things to do that are creative.
You know what I mean? It's like you get a project. You don't need money so much as when you're writing and when you're drawing and when you're dancing and when you're doing all these things. And you've been listening to Sherry Williams, the great niece of Tom Lyle Williams, the founder of the company of Maybelline. And my goodness, when the Great Depression hits, Tom Lyle does what businessmen should do.
He bought up all the competition, but he ran out of money. And that may have been the best thing that ever happened to him, because he took the product and brought it right into the dime stores. And then, well, those beautiful ads. And then, of course, the TV ads, then the endorsements, and always pouring every dime of his money. back in.
But the core of it was that he was getting people to think about, particularly women, about their eyes. The fascinating charm. The mysteriousness. And just listen to that, Ed. It's just brilliant.
It brings you in as a woman. It even draws you in as a man. You begin to believe it. And the fact of the matter is, it's also true. And the genius behind all of it, of course.
is Tom Lyle Williams. And of course, a man making this giant leap and ultimately domination. in a woman uh in a woman's market. When we come back, more of this remarkable story. The story of Maybelline here on Our American Stories.
Ready to change your life for just $2 a day? Orange Theory Fitness delivers one-hour workouts that combine strength and cardio to help you burn fat, build muscle, and feel unstoppable. Right now, get a full month of unlimited classes for just $62. Don't wait, this offer ends soon. Visit orangetheory.com or your local studio and start your transformation today.
Offer ends January 31st, 2026. New members only, premier membership, performance monitor, and monthly billing required. Discount applies to first month only. Other terms apply. See Studio for details.
So, do you want to start shopping for your next car but don't know where to begin? Start at CarMax, where you can shop your way from start to finish. Whether you're shopping for something practical, adventurous, or luxurious, CarMax puts you in the driver's seat. And if you want to shop cars that fit your budget, CarMax has your back all the way. Simply grab your phone and get pre-qualified from your couch, the dog park, or even on a coffee break.
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Want to get started on the search for your next car? Start at CarMax.com for details and get pre-qualified today. Want to drive? CarMax. Friday, February 6th.
Kick off the Winter Olympics in style with the opening ceremony from Italy featuring a special performance by Mariah Carey. Celebrate the greatest athletes from around the globe as they come together to go for gold. Let's see how sensational! The opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics. Ilya Maladin.
Defining the sport. Friday, February 6th on NBC and Peacock. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt.
From renewable energy companies with high-free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the SP 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com/slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio.
That's public.com/slash podcast. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory Services by Public Advisors LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool.
Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com/slash disclosures. Yeah. And we return to Our American Stories and to Sherry Williams sharing the story of her family and her great uncle, Tom Lyle Williams, the founder of Maybelline. Let's pick up where we last left off.
My first years of my childhood of remembering him, always dressed to the teeth, by the way. Here I am, this little kid, and there's all this laughter and music all the time playing. And it was just so exciting all the time that. Yeah. I didn't know what was going on.
You know what I mean? I didn't know anything. All I know that our family was a lot different, a lot noisier than everybody else. Big cars would drive up in our little house. I mean, it wasn't that big a house in Culver City right after the war.
And he here, this big Packard would pull up. And then some other car or Cadillac behind Nana's big Cadillac. And all of it it it we kind of stood out, but I didn't know why. in those early days. And the Nana started brainwashing me.
All you could say if anyone comes to the door is, I don't know. Repeat it. I don't know. If anybody comes and asks you any questions about anything, your family or me or anything, I don't know.
So we grew up with this kind of fear of letting anyone know. What was going on with all of this excitement and little middle-class neighborhood? I remember it was about 1952, and I think Eisenhower was running for president. And we had a TV, you know, those little TVs, like they had little teensy little screens, they were ridiculous. But all of a sudden, a Maybelline ad would come on.
Your eyes can be made more beautiful in seconds. Just see how quickly and easily you can use Maybelline to form lovely, expressive browns. And. We would be in there. And then if somebody would scream, Maybelline's on right now and we'd all run in there and I'm still a little kid, I don't know what it is, but they're making this great big deal over this these Maybelline ads and Uncle was there and You know, it's just like a lot of parties and celebration.
And so something was unusual, but I didn't know what it was. Just try it. You love it. Nana, when I was like six, seven years old, was teaching me how to pin curler my hair. and put my little eyebrows on and then the little eyelashes and I remember wearing the mascara to the sixth grade and everyone in the school was going, does she have mascara on?
You know, and it was a parochial school, Lutheran school, and the teacher was the pastor, and he made me go in and wash it off. And so I knew something weird is happening around here, but it wasn't till the sixth grade I had to do a speech, and I didn't know what to do it on. And my grandmother said, Well, why don't you tell the Maybelline story? What is that? What what's the Maybelline story?
And so she tells me, like I told you, the burning of the cork and Annie Mabel and putting it on. I did it. And I won the speech contest, and all of a sudden you know, I'm beginning to see that Maybelline put you on the map. And then I was at the store with my little girlfriend and her mother, and they had the Maybelline Twirling, which Maybelline was the first to come out with that we take for granted now, the racks that twirl, like you know, that have Christmas cards and birthday cards on them. They had all the Maybelline products at the market.
And I said My uncle My uncle invented this. And she runs over and she tells her mother and her mother comes over and she goes, oh no, honey, you mean your uncle works for the company. And I said, no, he invented it. And then I went home and I told my mom and dad, you know, Didn't Unk Ile and Vin you know, I began to like put the pieces together. Then my grandmother started telling me the story.
She felt safe enough at fifteen. Never stopped. Her those stories never stopped. Unbelievable stories. Then everyone began to kind of know that I was sort of the Maybelline girl.
And then it Then I started not liking it too much because people People had a Bye. They kind of had figured who I was before they met me. If they heard that I had anything to do with Maybelline, they would think, oh, she's going to be a snob. Oh, she's going to be this and that. You know, so I really started getting worried that people would.
Already, kind of have an opinion of me before they met me, and I'm a pretty nice person, tell you the truth, all those years of parochial school.
So no wonder the family did not want me to tell the story. My dad said, I don't want anyone to know who I am. He goes, I live a quiet life. I can walk around anywhere I want. If they knew who I was, I'd have to have bodyguards.
Tom Lyle. lost his lifetime partner Emery in 1964 in a heart attack and he just couldn't go on. He was like at seventies now and He was looking for a buyer. He was looking for someone to take over.
So in 1967, end of the year in December of 67, Maybelline sold to a pharmaceutical company called Plough Incorporated. He opened his stock. started the stocks. In nineteen fifty four in Delaware. brought us all up to his house in Bel Air.
told us what he had done, and handed out all the stock. just to the family and certain people who had worked with the company since the beginning. It was never out there on the exchange or anything where people could buy it.
So when the company sold, The family. We're the stockholders. and became overnight millionaires. The family would stick together, okay? They would just go over to each other's houses and bring food.
They would play cards. That was their big thing, was playing cards. And they just got each other through. Whatever it was, they just got each other through. They had an incredible sense of humor, which Nana always said is the magic of getting through hard times, is you just laugh about it.
You know, like, is this really happening? You know, and you just make a joke out of it. And you just keep going, and you just keep getting through another day. And lo and behold, you know, Maybelline sold, made everybody overnight millionaires. But you know The public never knew.
what was going on. Maybelline was the stage that the family played out on. The backdrop was beautiful, untouched, perfect. Maybelline, but all of the ups and downs of a Fairly normal American family. I mean, not 100%, but you know, that was going on at the same time.
I mean it is But none of the public ever knew anything more than Joan Crawford's big smile. At the sale of that company, My generation, we were the kids.
So it was really fun. being the kids, our parents were the ones that inherited all the money.
So we got to now live in their big time world, you know? I mean As soon as they got their money, all of that generation of cousins, they were out buying cars and boats and big mansions. I mean, it was just crazy. And we were the ones that got to b the benefit, you know, because we got to live in that world forever and ever and ever until they died and we had to face reality then and try to form worlds of our own. This is really true, what happened.
And I went back to school and got my degree in psychology and therapist, got into 12-step programs, everything to try to find who I was. outside of the perfection of how we had to be in public. And now I'm just such a different person, very spiritual, and I can't even handle being around any of the phoniness of the world anymore. Yeah. Oh.
I've turned into Tom Lyle. It wasn't just a corporation, it was a family behind the product. The family worked for the company in the beginning, all of them. All of them with the wheelbarrows, all of them when it became time for executive positions. They were the ones, his brother Noel, who gave him $500 to start the company, became the vice president of the company and ran the company in Chicago.
While Tom Lyle was busy at the Bella Valentino having tea with one big star after another, he was like the ultimate entrepreneur when he was like 19. He had a full company. never stopping no matter what. No matter if it was the depression or the war or more wars or whatever it was that came hitting and hitting and hitting him. He'd never stopped.
You know Pull up your boots by the bootstraps and make it happen. Stay fierce and make it happen. And that is what I learned growing up in this family. And a terrific job on the production, editing, and storytelling. by our own Madison Derricott.
And a special thanks to Sherry Williams for sharing the story of her family and her great uncle, Tom Lyle Williams, the founder of Maybelline. And what a story we just heard. Starting from nothing in Morganfield, Kentucky. A town of 1500 moving to Chicago working for Sears. and ultimately coming up with this brand really, by himself and the help of his sister Mabel.
And this was a family business, as you just heard. When Sherry's uncle sold the company, the family were the owners. This was not a publicly traded company, he owned the shares. And again, he shared them with the family. This happens throughout this great country.
families starting from nothing, building up businesses, bootstrapping. And my goodness, how she described her uncle as an entrepreneur no matter what. He never stopped. He just stayed fierce. He just made it happen through depressions and wars and changing markets.
Stay fierce. Make it happen. A MOTTO FOR AMERICA AND AMERICANS. The story of Maybelline here. And our American stories.
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Conditions and restrictions may apply. The new era of UFC on Paramount Plus comes out swinging. Highlight machine Justin Gagee collides with Patty the Batty Pimblet in a must-see high-octane main event. Plus, Sean Sugar O'Malley faces off against Song Yadong in a stand-up war filled with high-level striking. Pay-per-view just got knocked out.
Stream UFC 324 live on January 24th only on Paramount Plus. Visit paramountplus.com/slash UFC to get started. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. Mm-hmm.
