30 Years of Faith-based Investing

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10, 31.

I'm Rob West. The apostle Paul sets the bar high with that verse, calling on Christians to glorify God in every part of life, and that certainly includes how we manage money. Chad Horning joins us today to talk about an important milestone in investing that honors the Lord. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.

That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance Live, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions. Well, we're always delighted to have Chad Horning on the program. Chad's the president of Praxis Mutual Funds, an underwriter of this program, and one of the oldest faith-based mutual funds in the country. Chad, I wasn't talking about you.

I was talking about the mutual funds. Great to have you back on the program. Great. Thank you.

It's always good to be here. Chad, so you're celebrating 30 years of faith-based investing, and that's of course a real milestone. And Praxis has really been instrumental in defining that term, faith-based investing. What does that mean to you and your team at Praxis? Well, there are a variety of ways to describe this work.

For today's discussion, I think we should just agree that faith-based investing is simply the idea that one's faith can inform your investment decisions in ways that lead to different decisions than if it hadn't. Yeah. Well, that's helpful, and I think really clear as we just think about what this category represents. Now, we're talking about 30 years of history, so what has that looked like over these 30 years?

Sure. Yeah, I would say that at the beginning of this period, the hallmarks of faith-based investing included things like the avoidance of certain industries. That's been a part of this industry from the very beginning.

And why does that make sense? Well, if a Christian business person would be out there trying to start a business, they probably would avoid investing or starting a business in certain industries or selling certain products that don't match what their faith would ask them to do. The call to love one's neighbor as themselves would have many Christians avoid certain businesses that exploited their neighbors. And so that makes sense that as we invest, we would do the same thing. And as the investor has become more distant from the actual businesses, the same call to love one's neighbor still applies in our opinion. Wouldn't it make sense for an investor in a stock to avoid participation in businesses that exploited your neighbor? This thinking undergirds the way that many Christian investors want to practice their avoidance today.

Yeah, that's helpful. And obviously one key part of faith-based investing is this idea that we would avoid. Now, let me just follow up on one idea. And you said the investor has become more distant from the actual business. You're referring to buying stocks on the secondary market, perhaps directly or through a mutual fund. But describe what you mean by that distance from the actual business.

Sure. Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Today, most investors participate through buying stocks or mutual funds.

They don't have the ability to operate the business the way a business person might when they have their own business on Main Street in your town. Yeah, exactly right. Now, of course, we go beyond that. And this has come into view more recently beyond the avoid category into other aspects of faith-based investing.

Share one of those with us. Sure. Over the years, the expression of one's faith in the marketplace has changed to go past just avoidance the way that I described a moment ago and for investors to try to have a more proactive impact through their investments. Shareholder advocacy, or some people call it corporate engagement, is a practice that goes farther than simple avoidance. It requires the investor to engage with the company in which it invests, either by encouraging the management team or challenging them to run their company more effectively and better. Famously, Christians and other investors are credited with contributing to the end of apartheid in South Africa many years ago. And this was through shareholder engagement with American and European companies that operated in South Africa that were seen as contributing to the oppression and separation in that society. And today, corporate engagement for Christians takes many forms.

Most investments, or most engagements, I would say, are effective when there are a coalition of investor groups, there are groups of Christians who support the same idea, and that they work with companies in ways that are aligned with the company management incentives as well. Yeah. Well, this is really helpful. Well, of course, we'll continue to unpack this around the corner. We're talking today with Chad Horning. Chad is the president of Praxis Mutual Funds. We're celebrating 30 years of faith-based investing at Praxis Mutual Funds, and much more just around the corner. Stick around.

We'll be right back. Well, it's great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live. Joining me today is Chad Horning.

Chad is a good friend. He's also president of Praxis Mutual Funds. And we're talking about an important milestone in faith-based investing. Praxis is celebrating 30 years of faith-based investing, helping believers align their investments, their deployment of capital, with their values as Christians. And we talked about kind of a general overview of some of the aspects of faith-based investing, starting with avoiding companies that are misaligned with your Christian values. And then just before the break, Chad was sharing about an aspect of faith-based investing that involves shareholder advocacy or corporate engagement.

Chad, I'd like to go a little deeper there. Obviously, this type of engagement is most effective when the investors' interests are aligned with the incentives of the management team, right? That's correct. If an investor group wants the company to do something that the company management team believes will hinder their profits or their success in the future, it's unlikely to be successful. And so engaging with companies requires investors to try to focus on things that both parties can agree on.

This process can take months and sometimes years, and so it requires patience on the part of investors. Another example of the way that faith-based investing has evolved over the last three decades is that there's more ability for investors to make a targeted impact on communities through the investments that we make. This has allowed faith-based investors to channel a portion of their portfolios into solutions that deliver a specific social environmental benefit along with the financial returns that we all need. Some things that we've observed and participated in the past include international microfinance that brings capital to people that can't participate in the formal system, expanding affordable housing, addressing disaster recovery, preparedness for changes in the weather, and things like that. Yeah, this is really exciting to see that real change is occurring as a result of shareholder advocacy. Now, Chad, Christians engaged in the marketplace can of course be a powerful force for positive impact.

You just described a few of the ways that can happen. But obviously performance is important as well. So let's talk about that side of faith-based investing. How have faith-based investors fared over the years regarding performance?

This is an important question because people invest for the needs of their family, and so we welcome this kind of question. Over time, it's become easier to invest with one's values and not compromise on investment performance. Thirty years ago when we had our start, there were precious few investment options that afforded Christians the ability to express their faith through their values.

There were a handful of us, but not many. Today there are many choices for faith-oriented investors. There are dozens of mutual funds, maybe over a hundred, from several fund families covering many asset classes and different expressions of faith.

And then in the last decade or so, a few firms have launched exchange-traded funds, or ETFs, to meet these same needs in different wrappers. The factors affecting investment performance are broad and varied, and rarely that just one factor helps us to understand the performance of a fund. So it's been our experience, though, at Praxis that when investment strategies are well designed and executed, that you don't need to compromise performance when you're making a desired positive impact. Yeah, that's really helpful and obviously a concern of a lot of folks as they go into these types of investments. So we've been talking about this rich history that you enjoy there at Praxis. How has that shaped your investing there at Praxis mutual funds?

Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. We've sharpened our focus over the years on making a real-world difference for Kingdom investors. We've started primarily with avoidance screens that we talked about at the beginning, but over the years we've expanded to include seven different impact strategies. We call them Impact X.

Maybe we can talk about that some other time. We've also learned that the investment strategies that we use matter. What we do is a method called optimized index investing, which provides the investment success that we think our shareholders need to support their families' needs.

But we also then couple that with these Kingdom impact strategies that I described a moment ago. And then lastly, I think we try to maintain a sense of humility. We understand that the work that God has done and can do through investing is powerful, and we believe that we have much more to learn in participating with God as partners in this work.

Yeah, that's exciting work. All right, let's look forward, Chad. Share with us some of the things you're most excited about. What's on the horizon for faith-based investors in the next 30 years? I've touched on this a little bit, but I would expect our industry to continue to generate products and bring products to the market that will serve a wide range of Christians in the ways that they want to express their faith through their investing.

This has been happening over the last 30 years, and I would expect that to continue. I also expect that there'll be a convergence on the focus on factors affecting the financial performance of companies that matter both to Christians and traditional investors. For example, Christians likely care a lot about the people that are affected by companies, as well as the company's impact on creation.

Traditional investors care about these same factors because they believe that how they're managed by a company will affect the company's financial performance. And then at the same time, there's likely to be a growth in investment options that serve a wide range of expressions of faith among Christians so that they can invest in the things that they care most about. I expect that there won't just be one expression of Christian values in the investing world. Some people prefer to focus on items of morality, a Christian morality. They'll find investment products that fit them best. Others may want more focus on Christian social justice, and I expect them to have products that will serve them as well. Yeah. And Chad, you mentioned the growth in this space, obviously new investment options coming online all the time, and that's just going to further expand the range of options available to Christians that can dial into their particular area of interest, right? That's correct. While we're competitors, we're also friends with lots of the folks in our industry that are creatively bringing products to the market that serve this wide range of beliefs and faith expressions.

Yeah, that's great. All right, finally, what encouragement do you have for our listeners as they think about their own portfolios in light of what you shared about faith-based investing? First and foremost is I encourage your listeners to think about this as something that they can do. This is possible, and I would encourage them the next time they meet with their financial advisor to ask their advisor how they can invest with their faith. You don't need to compromise the way that you invest for the benefit of your family. Returns are important, but you can make a kingdom impact on the world along the way. Chad, speaking of financial advisors, are you seeing more and more advisors that are bringing this faith-based investing approach into their practices?

Of course, yeah. This has been a real encouragement for us and I know the other fund families as well. Over the last 10 or 15 years, the growth in advisors who are helping their clients integrate their values into their investment portfolios. I think we have the folks at Kingdom Advisors to thank for that, and it's just been growing year over year. Yeah, there's no question. Obviously, if this is something your advisor who might be a believer, but not introduce this into his or her practice yet, it's not too late.

They can start up this learning curve along with so many others who are really making a concerted effort to introduce faith-based investing into their practices. Chad, thanks for stopping by today to share the Praxis story. We appreciate it. Thank you again, Rob.

It's been a pleasure. That was Chad Horning at Praxis Mutual Funds. You can find more at praxismutualfunds.com. That's P-R-A-X-I-S mutualfunds.com.

We've got to take a quick break, but much more just around the corner. If you have a question today, call right now, 800-525-7000. By the way, you don't have to call, just send an email, askrobatfaithfi.com.

That's askrobatfaith, the letters F-I, dot com. Stick around. The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or professional opinions of the participants given for informational purposes only.

Any information provided is not intended to replace advice from a financial, medical, legal, or other professional who understands your specific situation. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live. I'm Rob West. All right, it's time to take your calls and questions today. The number to call is 800-525-7000.

Again, that's 800-525-7000. We'd love to tackle whatever you're thinking about in your financial life today, and we do have a few lines open, at least for now. This is a great time to call.

Get in the queue today, and we'd love to hear your story or hear your testimony about God's faithfulness in your life financially. You can call right now, again, 800-525-7000. All right, let's head to the phones to Northern Illinois. Hi, Helen. Thanks for your call. Go ahead. Oh, hello gentlemen.

Good afternoon. I had a couple garage sales on our block this weekend, and both neighbors are selling their homes. My daughter and her husband loves, loves, loves my neighbor's home.

It's a very modest home. So they got married in June last year, and they got their condo, and they're all in their fine field delivered. Now they want to buy this cute little home and jump from the condo and maybe get this first home, but both are, you know, fortunate to be college educated and they're doing okay. One of the couple was late on a couple car payments, so the credit score wouldn't be too good, and they need a co-signer. So my daughter just let me know that they could probably go forward if they had a co-signer, and she's asking me, and I'm calling you to see. It just is like red flags, but on the flip side of the coin, I would love to be able to help my daughter get into a home, but I need to pray about it, and I'm just kind of wondering what you think about a parent co-signing for a married couple's home.

Yeah, yeah. I'm going to discourage you from doing it, Helen, and here's why. I mean, God's word is very clear on this one. Proverbs 22, it says, be not one of those who gives pledges, who puts up security for debts, and then it goes on to talk about how it can be really detrimental, and we see that other places in scripture, and let me just say I completely understand why you would want to do this.

I mean, obviously we want what's best for our kids. We know they probably have a sincere desire to be able to get into this. They can demonstrate potentially to you despite some of the challenges they've had in the past, how they have a reasonable plan to be able to continue to make those payments every month, and yet I think the reason the Bible is so clear on this one is the data will tell us 50% of the time when you co-sign for someone, you will have to step in and make the payments, and the collateral damage is more than just the financial. It ends up being relational, and that's why when we put ourselves in this position, we're obligating ourselves, and what will often happen is because there's a reason that they don't qualify on their own. They either just don't have the financial stability to take on a loan of this size.

They don't have the longevity. Maybe they don't have the income history or maybe the ratios aren't right. All of those are telling with regard to that denial or that high interest rate which is more consistent with the level of risk that's being taken, and it just puts you in a position where if a situation outside of your daughter and son-in-law's control, she or they're unable to make these payments, and again, this may be something that is completely unforeseen, not of their doing, but let's say there was a loss of a job that was unexpected. Now, you're being put in a position where either you're going to step in and pay it, or it's going to result in damage to both of your credit reports, and in the case of a house, it's pretty significant because the worst case scenario is that it results in foreclosure that ends up leaving a huge deficiency balance because the home is sold for less potentially than it was purchased or a lot less, and now there's a balance that you and she are both obligated to step in for.

I think that's the reason why we need to look for another option here rather than you co-signing, and I realize that may mean she has to pass on a house that is perfect in every other criteria, and I realize that's difficult. Yeah. Well, I'll be honest. My layers beneath all of this, as I was dialing you, I concur in everything you're saying, and I just feel one of the takeaways in the conversation I'm going to have with her is what you mentioned.

It could be something completely out of their control, and it's like spinning the wheel, and they've done so much wonderful things with the place that they're at. You have answered my question, sir, and I feel very good about your answer, and I've felt that way before I talk to you. I just feel very solid about the situation I'm in and what I need to do. Well, I'm glad to hear that, and I think the key is to go into that conversation really prayed up, and I think you clearly want to communicate your desire. Listen, I love you, and I want to help you, and I want to be there for you, but I also need to do it in a way that's God-honoring and, you know, is setting us up for success in the future in terms of our relationship, and so I'm going to be there to walk alongside you every step of the way.

This is just not the way to do it, and, you know, maybe there's an opportunity for you, you know, at some point in the future to make a gift to her, or maybe there's another way that you can help support her, but I think this particular one, it's clear that you already had a check in your spirit, and I'm delighted to hear that we could help you just confirm that, and this is one of those where there is a pretty good amount of clarity in God's Word, so thanks for your call today, Helen. I appreciate you being on the program. If we can help with anything else, let us know. All right, folks, so we're just getting started today.

Plenty more time for your questions on anything financial. We'll help you apply the wisdom from God's Word to those decisions and choices you're making. Call right now.

I've got a few lines open. 800-525-7000. By the way, if you want some help in your financial life, maybe it's a professional you need, you can find a Certified Kingdom Advisor on our website at faithfi.com, or maybe it's budgeting or communicating with your spouse. That's where a Certified Christian Financial Counselor comes in. You can find a CERT CFC on our site as well.

Just go to faithfi.com and click Find a Professional. Back with more after this. Stick around.

Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live. I'm Rob West. Two lines remain open for your questions today. 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000.

Let's go back to the phones to Wisconsin. Hi, Joanne. How can I help? Okay, we have some stock that we want to sell, but we want it to go to a charity so we don't have to pay taxes, and we're just wondering how to do that. Yeah, it's a great question, Joanne, and I love that you're thinking about this now before you sell those stocks, because there is a way to do that.

And it involves using, well, there's two ways. One is you could transfer the stock directly to the charity, and then they would sell it, and then they'd be able to take the full amount. The other is to put it into what's called a donor advised fund. And this is basically like a charitable checking account. You could open it with a donor advised fund sponsor.

I'd recommend the National Christian Foundation. It's very easy to do. You can do it over the phone or over the internet if you're comfortable with that. And basically, once you open the account, which would just take five or six minutes, then you would essentially get the instructions on how you transfer the stock from your brokerage firm to your donor advised fund at the National Christian Foundation. When it arrived there, it could be sold, and then by selling it after you've given it to your donor advised fund, you don't generate any capital gains. And then you could decide which charities or ministries you wanted to gift it out to at that point. And that could be done, again, over the phone or the internet. So that's one way to do it. The other is just to give it directly to the ministry or charity.

And if you did that, you just want to call them first and let them know that that's what you intend to do. They could give you the instructions on the account that they have to receive those stocks. And by doing that before the sale, you would get the deduction equivalent to the full value of the appreciated stock. And the charity or ministry could then sell it at the market price once they receive it. And they'd have the full amount to use for their purposes.

And there's no tax paid, which I think was your objective. Does that make sense? Well, sort of. We do have a buyer.

We have somebody that we know that wants to buy it. OK, so that helped me with that a little bit. When you say so you have a stock like a security and a stock that's publicly traded. Is that right?

It's a telephone company. OK. And is that inside a brokerage account, sir, right now? No. You have the certificates? Yes.

OK. Yeah. So what I would typically do is open a brokerage account, like at a Fidelity or a Charles Schwab, where there's very little fees, if any. And then you could mail through the certified mail, the stock certificates to Fidelity or Schwab to be deposited in your account. That would probably be a joint account with you and your wife. And once those the stock was then appears in the account, then you could gift it to the charity or ministry because, am I correct? And that's what you want to do. You want to give the stock away before you sell it.

OK. Yeah. And so that would make it a little simpler. I mean, you could call them and see if you could mail them the certificate. They're probably not going to want it that way. They're probably going to want you to open a brokerage account at Schwab or Fidelity, mail it in, get it deposited. And then you would call the charity and they would give you the instructions on what you need to give to Fidelity or Schwab to transfer the shares of stock to the charity so that they can sell it. And by doing it that way, nobody generates any tax because you're gifting the full amount of the value of the stock. They're selling it after they receive it. Therefore, they don't pay any capital gains. You don't either.

And you get the tax deduction on the full value of the marketable securities, in this case, the telephone company upon the transfer. OK, sounds good. All right. Listen, if you need further help with this, don't hesitate to reach back out to us. It sounds complicated. There's a few steps involved, but it shouldn't be that difficult. Are you comfortable operating on the Internet?

Not very. OK, and that's fine. What I'd probably do. OK, no problem. So what I would do, Joanne, is I'd probably look up the local Charles Schwab office there in Wisconsin and I'd go in there and I'd tell him exactly what you want to do. Listen, I want to open a brokerage account in the name of me and my husband. And I want it's it's for the sole purpose of depositing these shares of stock. Here's the certificates. And I want you to open the account, deposit the shares, and then I'm going to give you instructions from my favorite charity or ministry or my church on where I need you to transfer this after I deposit it.

And they'll take care of it for you. OK, thank you. All right. You're very welcome, sir. God bless you both. And thank you for being on the program today. I hope that was helpful. What a delight they're wanting to give generously.

And I love that they're thinking about doing it in a tax efficient manner. All right. Let's move right along. By the way, we have some lines open at eight hundred five to five seven thousand. You can call right now.

Let's go to Chicago. Hi, Mike. Go ahead.

Hello, how are you? I really enjoyed the program. Very helpful. Thank you.

Quick question. So on my 401, you know, the traditional 401, I can actually view the amount that it's it's being recorded as a Roth account. And I do have a certain amount of money there. I wonder if that part of the 401 account I can get out as soon as I retire, which is going to be a few months, probably. And do I have to pay taxes for that or not, since I think is that that's paid already?

As long as that's been open at least five years and you're over fifty nine and a half, you can pull out the contributions and the gains without any taxes on a Roth 401K. Oh, that's fantastic. Very helpful. Thank you so much. OK, no problem.

We appreciate your call. Anything else I can help you with? That was a quick one.

No, that that will do. Thank you. Appreciate it very much. OK, have a nice one. Really enjoy the program. Bye bye. Absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Eight hundred five two five seven thousand is the number to call.

That's eight hundred five two five seven thousand. You know, he mentioned the Roth IRA and I like the Roth a lot. You know, more and more people are having the option now to save in a company sponsored plan with a Roth option available. You know, historically, the Roth was just for the IRA, the individual retirement account, and now more and more we're seeing companies that offer a Roth version of their 401K, which is great because it gives you the ability to put in the after tax dollars and then you get that tax free growth, especially if you have a lot of time. Now, if you know more and more folks, though, are also contributing to both alongside one another and that gives you options in retirement. It gives you both the pre-tax version as well as the after tax version. The pre-tax, of course, giving you the benefit of the deduction when you put it in, but the Roth giving you the benefit of the tax free growth and no tax when it comes out.

There is a case to be made about having both of them. We actually talked to Mark Biller recently about a study that was done on what's the right balance between the pre-tax traditional 401K and the Roth 401K. The study showed after looking at about fifteen hundred different plans that if you had take your age plus twenty, that's the percentage you should put in the traditional and then you put the balance in the Roth and that was just the way as they evaluated all these plans how you maximize growth and minimize taxes.

Your age plus twenty goes in the traditional, the balance and the Roth. Something to think about. Check out the article that we referenced during that interview.

All right, all the lines are full. Back with your questions after this. Stick around. Hey, great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live. Here on a Monday, it's time to check in with Bob Doll in this segment. Bob joins us each Monday with his market commentary.

He's, of course, CEO and CIO at Crossmark Global where investments and values intersect. Bob, give us an update on the markets. Obviously, we've got new inflation readings. We've got new consumer data. We've got new earnings all the time. What do you make of all of it? Yeah, happy Monday.

It's a lot of crosscurrents, Rob. This is a big week for economic numbers as well as the Fed testimony, the annual so-called Humphrey Hawkins testimony where Fed Chair Powell will be grilled about every word that comes out of his mouth about inflation and about economic growth and interest rates. And then we have the monthly jobs report at the end of the week. So it's a lot of watching and waiting. I think we'll just see the markets churn until we get some information there, Rob. Yeah. Now, you talked in your deliberations this week just about the global economy and the role of the U.S. in that.

Share that with us. Yeah, the U.S., despite the fact that we're worried, are we going to have a recession? It's going to weaken it. We can. We're in good shape versus the rest of the world. In fact, the main reason the global economy is not in a recession is the U.S., because when you look at other big economies, the U.K., Japan, China, Germany, they're either in a recession or flirting with one, Rob.

Yeah. Now, we talk about the markets, Bob. Obviously, it's just been some incredible strength. You noted that, particularly around the S&P 500 and just valuation. So what do you make of where the market finds itself today? Yeah, so rearview mirror, the stock market, the S&P 500 has gone up 16 of the last 18 weeks. 16 out of 18.

That's not happened in over 50 years. That's how strong the market's been. But when the PE ratio on the market is over 20 times, which it is today, subsequent 1, 3, 5 and 10 year returns get this average 3.9, 4.4, 5.5, 3.0 percent. Hardly anything to write home about, but it's total return, including dividends. So we should expect whatever happens in the short term that over the next 3, 5 and 10 years returns are going to be below average.

Hopefully positive, but below average. Now, Bob, what should we make of the fact that, I mean, Bitcoin just hit an all time high and gold is above $2,100 an ounce. I mean, what is that telling us alongside the market strength that we're seeing? Well, it's telling us that the economies of the world are good or improving, that inflation is higher than it's been in the last 10 plus years. And I might add to that, there's just a lot of speculation.

If something hasn't gone up, somebody probably buys it and pushes it up. That's the kind of environment we're in. Yeah. All right. Well, Bob, I appreciate your insights.

I know you're on the road today. We appreciate you taking a few minutes to stop in and say hello and always grateful for your analysis of the markets. We'll talk to you next week. Have a great week. Bye bye. All right. That's Bob Dollies, chief investment officer at Crossmark Global Investments. Hey, while you have a few moments, sign up for his weekly investment commentary.

It's called Dolls Deliberations delivered to your inbox each week at crossmarkglobal.com. All right. Let's head back to the phones. We're going to get to as many questions as we can between now and the end of the program to Cleveland. Hi, Drew. Go ahead.

Hey, Rob. Thanks for taking my call. I enjoy the show.

Thanks. I enjoy hearing about the faith-based alternatives. I've investigated some of them, and it seems like the fees, whether it's the sales charge or the expense ratios, are fairly high compared with a product from Vanguard or Schwab or something like that. Sometimes, they're also not nearly as diversified. I'd be curious to kind of get your perspective on that. Yeah.

It's a good question. I mean, I think you need to compare apples to apples in the sense that you've got to look at managed mutual funds versus index funds. I would say anything that's under one and a half percent is in the reasonable range. There's no question that fees have been coming down. And so there's been a lot of pressure on fees to come down. We know Fidelity, you know, Fidelity, for instance, came out with their first free ETF not too long ago and others are following suit. But at the same time, when you have an actively managed portfolio, you know, you're going to pay for it. And, you know, the good news is that the studies and one just came out recently, Tim McCready of Bright Light, who's really taken an interest in this whole faith-based investing space. The studies will show that you don't have to give up performance, even net of fees with the faith-based investing funds, which is good. Now, you need to look at a share class.

So that would be one thing I would I would tell you. And the share classes that, you know, don't have the front end sales charges in some cases are going to have higher minimum investments. In some cases, that'll go up as high as one hundred thousand for a minimum investment. But that's where you're going to get the lowest net expenses, you know, around one point two percent for probably, you know, most of these funds. So I would factor in fees, no doubt.

You don't want to just discount it completely and ignore it. I would always look at the various share classes to find the one that's the best fit for you. And if you have the capital to buy the institutional classes where you're going to put in higher minimums, that's going to give you the opportunity to get those expense ratios down much lower. But at the end of the day, what I would say to you is that the performance is there in this category versus their peers, and that includes net of fees.

So I would love for you to have the opportunity, if this is a conviction, to be aligned with your values, get great performance, and yet still be mindful of the fees at the end of the day. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Thank you. Okay. I appreciate it. And it's a great question, Drew. I'm not dismissing it at all.

And I do think we've got to look at that as one piece of the equation, but just make sure you're looking at the whole picture before you make the decision. Let's head to Chicagoland. Verna, thanks for calling. Go ahead. Hi, how are you?

I'm doing great. I just heard about there's a company, well, there's a government program that you can use when you have credit card debts. You consolidate, you pay it back at a low amount with no interest. But I'm not sure how to get to that program. And I would love to pay off my debts. It's run about 25,000.

And I'm 70 years old. Verna, I got to tell you, I don't think there's any such program out there. I mean, if anything, it might have been something somebody was using as what they would call clickbait to kind of get you to respond to something on the internet or over the phone or through the mail. Because there is no, certainly no federal program, but any program for that matter, that's going to allow you to pay off credit card debt at zero interest.

You know, nor in my opinion should there be. Now, there is an option to get that interest rate down and it's through something called credit counseling, or you might hear it referred to as debt management, where every credit card company has what they call a credit counseling rate, which is a lower interest rate. If you're willing to close the account and pay through a non-profit credit counseling agency, they'll drop that interest rate. And the combination of that lower rate with one steady level monthly payment is going to help you pay that debt off 80 percent faster. And the credit counseling agency will even help work with your budget to make sure that, you know, this can fit in your budget and this is sustainable.

But as to a program that's going to allow you to get that to zero, it just doesn't exist. And if you find it, feel free to pass it along, but I'm pretty confident you won't. If you want to check out a debt management program, we recommend christiancreditcounselors.org. They've worked with hundreds, if not thousands, of our listeners. They're wonderful, godly people and I think they'll really be able to help you with this 25,000 in credit card debt. Again, christiancreditcounselors.org. Thanks for your call. Let's finish up today in Minnesota.

Hi Angie, go ahead. Hi, we have a term life insurance policy that is coming to an end and we can cash it out or we could roll it into a whole life policy, but we have other adequate life insurance. So we're just wondering, with a child going to college in about a year and a half, if there's a way to put that money in a savings account for that expenditure that would not be painful for taxes? Yeah, Angie, the only question I have is, you know, with term insurance, just plain term insurance, there is no cash value. You just pay the mortality expense during the term and if you don't collect on it, meaning you don't pass away, you drop it. And I realized that you could say, well then the money's gone, but it's kind of like your car insurance. You pay the premium to offset the risk and you hope you never have to collect. And that's true of term insurance.

There may be a few exceptions. One is what's called a return of premium rider, but that's an optional add-on to a term life policy that if you outlive the term, it pays you all or some of the money you spent on the policy payments. Do you think that's perhaps what you have?

It must be. Either that or does a whole life policy do that? A whole life will have cash value.

Yeah, it's not term. That's a combination of a savings vehicle and the life insurance. It's much more expensive than term insurance, but it does build up savings.

And I would say, depending upon the tax treatment on that, I would probably go ahead and, well, the first question is, do you need the death benefit? Are you all still working? Yes. Okay. And do you have any other insurance or is this your only policy? Oh no, we have several other policies. Life insurance policies? Yes. Okay.

Yeah. Well, the key is just to make sure you have the proper amount of coverage. So at a minimum, you want 10 to 12 times your income on the person's life that's generating the income. So if you're making $60,000 a year, you'd want to have somewhere between 600 and 720,000 on the person who's earning the 60,000. And that's going to give you enough to generate enough income to get through until you would have normally retired and started taking social security. So first thing is I determine how much life insurance do we need at this point and what policies do we have to cover that.

And then if you have enough coverage, then I would drop that policy and to your point, take that cash value and invest it or build up your emergency savings with it. Thanks for your call. I hope that helps you. Faith in Finance Live is a partnership between Mooney Radio and Faith Buy. Thanks to my team today, Anthony, Dan, Amy, and Jim. Couldn't do it without them. We'll see you tomorrow. Hope you come join us. Bye-bye.