Leveraging Financial Accountability

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. James 1 17.

I am Rob West. If everything we have comes from God, it matters how we use those resources. Today, I'll talk with Ken Boa and Russ Crossan about the principles of biblical leverage and using God's resources for His glory. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.

That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance Live, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, it's great to have Ken Boa and Russ Crossan on the program again today. Ken is a pastor and founder of Reflections Ministries, Russ' executive vice president and chief mission officer at Ronald Blue Trust. Ken, Russ, great to have you back with us. It's good to be here. Thanks, Rob.

I'm glad to be with you. Now, this is actually, gentlemen, the second of our interviews on the book the two of you wrote together. It's, of course, titled Leverage Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. We think, of course, everyone should pick up a copy, and that's why, until the end of the year, we're making it available to folks for a gift of any amount to Faithfi. Just go to faithfi.com and click on the Give tab.

We'd love to put a copy in your hands today, just as our way of saying thanks for supporting the ministry. Now, before we get into the principles of biblical leverage, I want to revisit this idea of what biblical leverage is. You know, as Christians, we give to our church, perhaps to some other ministries as well, hopefully. Is that biblical leverage, Ken, or is there more to it? The concept of leverage is something more than just the idea of what my ideas are, but rather what the Scriptures are.

What does the Spirit guide me to do? How much is enough? And then to really process this prayerfully before God, because the way we desecrate the altar of mammon is by giving it away. So it's a violation of the downward pull that the world would naturally define us by our net worth, defined us by our pile of money that we have accumulated. That's a great danger, because we are going to look for security, significance, and satisfaction, but we're going to look for them in the wrong place if we do not get this right. Yeah, there's no question about that.

Now, one of the questions folks struggle with a lot is, how much should I give? Ken, will you give them a framework to think about answering that question? Yeah, as I look at it, and it's interesting, as I've said before, that the Old Testament really has four different ties.

If you count one as a passive tie, it actually had to do with not actually using their own land and so forth, gleaning it to the edge. So it's an incredible thing. But in the New Testament, we have principles, and it doesn't tell us an exact amount. But there are certain minimums that we need to see, and how do we define it? Part of it is that you are privileged to give, so to give cheerfully is one of the key components that we see in the epistles. The principles as well include the idea of giving proportionately, and that is a radically different thing, because the more people have in this world, the less proportion they tend to give. There makes that blunder of looking at it in terms of dollars instead of proportion, and so that's a huge issue. And it requires more radical risk, because the more we have, the more it apparently takes for us to risk pursuing the eternal over the temporal, the not yet or the now. So this is a part of the process. And then there are other principles, like giving sacrificially. What does that mean, especially for a person who has a really high net worth?

Yes. Yeah, how would you describe that? I mean, Russ, you obviously have worked with a lot of folks who have significant wealth. What does sacrificial giving look like when you've been entrusted with much? Well, you know, it's hard, because you really have everything you need, and you don't have to sacrifice in the traditional sense of the word.

We have to go with without something, but maybe you can go without something. You choose to not do something that you would normally have done, even though you could afford it and give that, because that's why it gets harder. If you don't have very much, you know what you have to sacrifice. You sacrifice a meal or you sacrifice whatever, but if you have a lot, it's tough to sacrifice. And I think, you know, that's the faith aspect is, okay, what am I not going to do that I would have normally done once I understand these concepts that Ken's talking about?

How can I go beyond my comfort level? Whatever that is. And for a lot of people, that would be a sacrifice when they write a check or give an asset that they've never done before. And that's, I think that's what God calls us to do. It's a faith test. And that's one of the things that our wealth can do for us is help us grow our faith.

Oh, that's exactly right. Well, we're talking today with Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Crossan. Their book is called Leverage Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain. When we come back, much more on this topic, what is the role of the Holy Spirit in the giving decision-making process? What about the prosperity gospel?

And what is reverse compounding? That and much more just around the corner. Stick around. Delighted to have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live.

I'm Rob West. Joining me today, my good friends, Dr. Ken Boa and Russ Crossan. They have recently co-authored the book Leverage Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain.

I think it's a must read. In fact, we want to put a copy in everyone's hands with a gift of any amount to Faithfi. Pick up your copy when you make a gift at faithfi.com.

Just click the Give tab. Gentlemen, before the break, we were talking about what it looks like to do proportionate giving. And then also in the New Testament, we see this idea of sacrificial giving. Ken, what's important for us to know about that? Well, this is going to relate to some things we've been talking about, the eternal and the temporal.

If faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not yet, then we are being invited in scripture to pursue the not yet over the now and the not seen over the visible. That's a huge risk. So in one way, this idea of giving sacrificially is such that it's going to have an impact on my lifestyle.

What if a person has a hundred million dollars? Then the question is, what would it take for that to have an impact in our lifestyle? And it's going to have a great deal of influence because how much does a person really need? I mean, how well can you dress?

How well can you eat? And so forth. There's only so much we can do, and it's certainly not a hundred million. So these are radical implications of who defines us. Is it our wealth or is it going to be the word? Is God going to define us and give us our security, significance or satisfaction? Or are we looking for significance because of our possessions? So it's a big challenge. That's why we're told instructors who are rich in this present world are not to be conceited or to fix their hope and the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Yeah, it's something you said earlier. It's this faithfulness to opportunity. What about the role of the Holy Spirit in that decision-making process, Ken? It seems to me that the training in listening to the voice of the Spirit is something that's been largely neglected in many people of the faith, but we need to pursue that. We listen to the prompts of the Spirit and actually ask Him to guide our thinking and our feelings and our thoughts as to where are we to give and how much are we to give.

It's involving Him in that process. The Holy Spirit's a person, not just a force, and so He guides us and illuminates His Word, and so deep calls to deep. So it's going to be more radical, though. It's going to be deeper, it's going to be richer than we ourselves might have imagined. I think, Rob, let me jump in here for a minute, if I could. Ken just quoted 1 Timothy 6, 17 to 19, instruct those who are rich to be generous, and I'd like to give the listeners a four-letter word to tie to that scripture, and that's a wise person. A wise person will do that.

They'll send it on ahead. They'll work on this issue and talk to the Holy Spirit and listen, versus the farmer over in Luke 12, who was not rich towards God, and he was called a fool. So, Rob, what I would challenge folks with is we all have a choice. We either live as a fool or we live as a wise person. I think most people listening would want to be a wise person, not a fool, and so that's helped me have perspective on how important it is that I learn to be generous. Instruct those who are rich in this present world to be generous.

Yeah, it seems like that's a key verse that really should govern our thinking in this area. Russ, Ron Blue, our friend, our mutual friend, has taught over the years that there are some barriers to giving. They can be financial, they can be spiritual, they can be a lack of vision, but they can also be relational.

Where does accountability come into the equation? Well, you know, like I said earlier, you know, this is a supernatural thing to start giving and not try to keep. We try to hoard, we try to hold on to, and so I need help in being reminded of these principles we're talking about, but also in my own personal financial situation, God always promises to meet my needs.

I've been doing this for over four decades. I've never had anybody not have their needs met, so from Philippians we see that. So if my needs are met, then I can be generous and I can start moving out of my comfort zone, and I won't do that without somebody asking me the hard questions, showing me the finish line, and just really challenging me. Yeah, so what then makes a good steward, Russ? How would you define good stewardship? Well, I've said that good stewardship is when you apply the biblical principles and you allow yourself to be held accountable because you can convince yourself of anything. And so, and guess what, Rob, we're all going to stand before God and make an account. I don't have to make an account for you, you don't have to make an account for me, so we're all ends of one, and so I need to have somebody speaking into my life helping me be able to stand before God and hear, job well done.

Yeah, and that's where accountability comes in. Ken, how does all of this that we've been talking about today reveal the false teaching then of the prosperity gospel? Yes, the idea that the fruit of the vine is related to this is a false pickup from the Old Testament covenant community. Israel was a theocratic covenant nation, and they were promised that righteousness would lead to expanding your borders and your businesses and everything with your health, and that notion has been falsely carried into the New Testament, because actually in the New Testament it's the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of the vine. And there's no guarantee, no connection between righteousness and well-being in terms of financial well-being, nor is there any claim that unrighteousness would necessarily lead to a loss in that sense in the New Testament.

The idea is that it is a matter of God's calling us to pursue those things which will last forever, and so it's a question of allowing God to guide us and to influence our radical decisions to be people for his own possession who are not pulled around by the allures of the world that it would actually cause us to succumb. Which leads us to something, Russ, that you call reverse compounding. We're familiar with what compounding is.

How does reverse compounding work? Well, everybody knows you put money into retirement, the longer it grows, the bigger it's going to get, but with this giving area, we all have an expiration day, we all have a day where we can go be with Jesus, and so every day I wait to start my giving journey and start being generous is one last day I have it to compound for my benefit in heaven. Remember we said, store up treasures in heaven? And so it's the idea that I don't know when my end game is, but every day I wait is one last day I have an opportunity to use my resources to impact God's kingdom, and so I need to get started sooner than later. Yeah, well it's ultimately an invitation, Ken.

You said something in an earlier segment around the opportunity we have. We're actually allowed to be a player. We're allowed to participate in God's activity through our giving. That's a privilege, isn't it? It is a privilege, and we must choose the way of gratitude, the way of contentment.

Those are not emotions. Those are perspectives that we embrace as the more we grasp who defines us. Is it the world, or is it the word? The world will define us by default.

Do nothing. It'll tell you what to go through and what the price tags are, but the word will only define you by discipline. You must actually submit yourself to that truth, and then setting your eyes on the things above, your value system changes, and you treasure not the temporal, but actually you see that the temporal is something that can be leveraged for the eternal. So this is why I love Jesus when he said, again, something we quoted before in Luke 16 9, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness so that when it fails they'll receive you into the eternal dwellings, because here clearly the currency of the kingdom of God is not money.

It's not temporal things. It is relationships, and so the best thing we can do is to take the two things that are going to endure forever, and those are people and the word, and to build the word into people by using our things that are passing away, our time, our talent, and our treasure, so by leveraging what's dying and passing away and turning it into that which is going to live forever, that's a wise stewardship. It sure is. Well, we're going to have to leave it there for today, gentlemen, but thanks for stopping by. We appreciate you being with us. Thanks, Rob. Great to be with you.

Good to be with you. That's Ken Boa and Russ Crossan. They're the authors of Leverage, Using Temporal Wealth for Eternal Gain, all the way until December 31st. You can get a copy with a gift of any amount to Faithfi. Just go to faithfi.com and click the Give tab. Your calls are next, 800-525-7000.

That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance Live. I'm Rob West. We're going to take a quick break and come back with much more just around the corner. Stick around. The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or professional opinions of the participants, given for informational purposes only.

Any information provided is not intended to replace advice from a financial, medical, legal, or other professional who understands your specific situation. I'm delighted to have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live. My name is Rob West, and we're ready to take your calls and questions today on anything financial. We've got some lines open.

We're ready for you. 800-525-7000. Again, that number, 800-525-7000. You can call right now. Also coming up today on our broadcast, a little later in the program, Bob Dahl stops by with his market commentary.

We'll look forward to that as well. Let's begin today in Minneapolis. Hi, Faith. Go ahead. Hi. I have a complicated situation for myself, and I just wanted to reach out and see if you could help me figure out some things here.

Sure. I have a large debt, and because my husband passed away in January, I am trying to sell some assets and decide how to use the money. It's set up in a 10-year, monthly payments of 10 years, and the interest rate is 4.1%. I've had to sell off our farm equipment, and I've rented out our land.

I have sold his trucks and trailers and things, so I have a chunk of money. What I'm trying to decide is if I should keep that, how I should invest that. I've invested some of it in some four-month CDs, and I'm getting about anywhere from 4% to 5% on those.

I recently visited my Edward Jones agent, and he told me that I could invest in a money market account for 5.1%, and he recommended me doing that with my larger chunks of money instead of using it to pay off the debt. Okay. I'm just kind of toying with what I should do here. Yeah, that's helpful. Yeah, I'd be happy to weigh in.

Let me ask you a couple of questions first. What's the amount that you owe on this debt? It's over $450,000. All right, and is there any collateral attached to it, or is it just a personal obligation? It's a 120-acre farm. 120-acre farm. All right, and you plan to keep the farm? Well, I'm hoping to. It's been my home for several decades, and I'd like to pass it on to my children, but if I can't manage it, can't pay the debt, you know, it's all kind of weighing on this. All the next few years playing out.

I can understand that for sure. And what have you been able to generate as you've sold off these assets? The amount?

Yes. I don't have that figure in my head right now. I've kind of deferred some of the income just to spread it out a little, but I'd say probably around $150,000. Okay, all right. And do you have plans to free up any additional capital, or is really that the extent of what you have to work with as you're considering either investing or paying down debt? I have a few more things to sell, nothing large.

I got rid of most of the bigger stuff. Yeah, and then you said you have monthly payments. You said you had monthly payments on the $450,000. Are you able to cover those with your current cash flow?

Well, not my income. You know, that's why I sold off the assets so that I would have money to pay those, and I can rent out the land. So I've got, with what I've sold in the land rent, I think I've got about two to three years covered of those loan payments. Okay, and then you'd have another eight, seven to eight years left to pay it off, is that right? Yeah. Okay, and what would you do at that point?

Because obviously, even if we put the $150,000 against principal, assuming there's no prepayment penalties, now you owe $300,000, but I assume those monthly payments would remain the same, is that right? Yeah. Okay, so then what happens in years seven, you know, seven through eight, how would you cover those payments then at that point?

That I don't know. I probably have to sell them at that point. Okay, is there a way to generate more income longer term from the from the farm?

Okay, all right. Yeah, I mean, I think you really need to sit with an advisor, Faye, because I think this is a bigger question than just do I pay off the farm or invest? Because really, it's kind of a wash. I mean, all things being equal, I'd probably, you know, depending on what happens to the repayment plan, you know, typically, I would say, let's pay down the debt, because, you know, earning four to 5%, and paying, you know, 4.1, I mean, even at 5%, that's still taxable. So you have to pay taxes on the interest. And depending on which, you know, marginal tax rate you're at, I mean, that's probably 22%, or so.

So that obviously comes off the income you're making. And so at the end of the day, you know, it's probably a wash with the interest that you're paying on the note. But I also don't want you to eat up all of your, you know, capital, working capital that, you know, could help you fund the debt service. The problem is, we've got to have a plan to get to year 10. Otherwise, we're just kind of buying time, so to speak. So rather than solving for what do I do with 150 today, I'd rather solve for what am I going to do with the farm to either position it to be sold because I know I can't get to year 10, or refinance it, which I realize is challenging in this interest rate environment. But you could try to stretch out those payments a little bit longer than a 10-year payback.

Or, you know, is there another plan that we haven't considered? And I think those are big enough questions that you need to sit with a financial advisor, and perhaps, you know, a real estate professional to work through. So I would hate to weigh in on that kind of short-term decision without somebody that could give you some real counsel on the longer term. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So I think that's where you need to go next. You could look for a Certified Kingdom Advisor. There's some wonderful CKAs in Minneapolis.

Just go to faithfi.com and click find a CKA. God bless you, Faith. Thanks for calling today. We'll be right back. I'm so thankful to have you with us today on Faith & Finance Live. I'm Rob West. We're taking your calls and questions today, and I've gotten a couple of lines open. 800-525-7000 with your financial questions today. We'd love for you to help you think you... Let me start over.

We'd love to help you think about those questions in light of biblical truth. Give us a call. Let's go to Port Charlotte, Florida. Hi, Casey. Go right ahead. Thank you, Rob, for taking my call. I'm a new listener, and I'm just so blessed to be here to ask you a couple questions today. Well, thank you. I'm delighted you are.

Go ahead. So I'm 34 years old. I'm a widow, and I'm pretty much at a standstill of never having to have responsibilities, whether that was younger and younger adult, and then when I got married and after my husband died, I sold our house in business and decided to put that in my daughter's trust fund. And at this point, I'm working, I'm going to school, and I have just nowhere to start. I have nothing of my own. I don't have any payments. The only thing that is attached to me is medical debt and about $2,000 worth of credit card debt. Okay. I just don't know how to start.

Yeah, I can certainly understand that. First of all, Casey, I'm so sorry to hear about your husband's passing, but I'd love to help you. And in fact, I'd love to actually, beyond even our time here on the phone today, I'd love to have one of our certified Christian financial counselors reach out to you. We're going to cover the cost for it, but this would be somebody who's been trained in biblical financial advice, how to put budgets together, deal with debt, set up a spending plan.

There'll be absolutely no cost to you, and he or she can work with you over a series of calls over a few months to get all of this set up and just kind of help you have a plan. And I think that's going to help you feel a lot better just about where you're going and just allow you to regain some confidence in your new responsibilities that you haven't had before around this area of money management. You can do it, but you're going to need some help, like we all do, because this is a new area.

We're going to give that to you. But let's tackle a few of these things, and I'm going to ask a couple of questions to do that. So you said you sold the house and the business. So where are you living now? So I live in Port Charlotte, Florida.

Our house and business was on the other coast in Vero Beach. Okay, all right. And what did the proceeds from those two sales generate?

Almost a quarter of a million. Okay, and what did you say you did with that? So that I put in my daughter's trust fund. Okay.

And why is that? Why would you not, you know, you keep that for yourself, but then obviously continue to cover her expenses and then leave that to her at your death? So I'll be honest with you.

When he died, I was so confused. His mother actually came in and made more of the decision-making process for me than I did. Okay. And this obviously, was this a first marriage? It was.

Okay, so this was your house together, your business together as a married couple, and the proceeds of those two sales, you're telling me, are not available to you based on the decisions that she made? Correct. And I've looked into it a little bit before. And from what I'm understanding, I'm not able to touch any of it. At that moment, I pretty well gave the decision-making over to his mother.

And now I regret it. Yeah. Well, I'm not an attorney, Casey, but that would be the starting place. Not that you're trying to take anything away from your daughter. I suspect you have been and will continue to provide for her. Is she a child, a minor or an adult? She's five years old.

Okay. So she's a child. So obviously, you're her caretaker and providing all of her... Yeah. And so you're going to make sure that you continue to provide for your daughter, but you've also got to provide for yourself. And these were marital assets. So in my view, and again, I'm just dropping into this story in a couple of minutes here, but in my view, these are your resources that were generated from the sale of your home and the business that you and your husband had. And absolutely, you can make sure that in the event the Lord called you home, that your daughter has a guardian and the resources for her care.

But that's not the case today. You're here. This is your money.

And you need to be a good steward of that money, which includes not only providing for your daughter, but providing for yourself, covering the needs that you have, the debts that you have, her care, all of it. And now what I'm hearing is this is no longer accessible to you. So I guess there's a couple of things.

I mean, obviously you need to operate day to day, and you need a plan for the resources that you have. And that's what we can help you with. The second piece of this is I think a legal matter, which is just visiting with somebody who can speak into what was set up, how it was done, the fact that these were marital assets that were put into this trust, perhaps without your consent and what the next step is to remedy that situation to the extent there needs to be a remedy. Do you have a relationship with an attorney and a state attorney that perhaps set up this trust or is that someone that his mom has the relationship with? That's exactly correct.

She hired him. All right. So what I would probably do is reach out to a certified kingdom advisor there in Port Charlotte on our website, faithfi.com. That's faithfi.com. Click find a C.K.A.

and just ask for any one of those certified kingdom advisors to make a referral for you to an estate attorney, someone who could represent you legally, that you could kind of unpack all of this and they can help advise you based on the laws there in the state of Florida as to what happened as those marital assets were sold and what precipitated them being placed in a trust that perhaps is beyond even your ability to access those funds. Somebody, though, that has your best interest in mind and can represent you. And then in the meantime, are you working? I do work and I'm currently in college. Well, and now let me re-retract my previous statement. I also have twenty thousand dollars in student debt. Okay.

Yeah. And so obviously you're caring for your little one. You're going to college and you're working. Are you making enough to cover your bills? So that's kind of the other spot that I am.

I am in a blessed spot. After my husband died, my parents begged us to come over and live with them. So we are with our parents. I don't really don't really have any bills. My car's paid off. I don't have any bills, realistically. But you don't have any assets or savings of any kind? I have nothing. I have nothing.

I can't go out and get a place for my daughter and I on our own. I can't do nothing. Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's do these two things. I think these are the next steps here. And I'm so sorry that you're in this situation.

But I think, you know, if you hold the line, we're going to get your information. And like I say, we're going to cover the cost for a certified Christian financial counselor to call you. I'm going to have that person work with you just on your current plan based on the income you have coming in to be able to cover your expenses, which I understand are limited because of your parents being so gracious to take you in. But hopefully get into the place where you at least have a system to control the flow of money. And you can build up a little bit of a cushion there in an emergency savings account. And then I think the second step is for you to reach out to that attorney there in Port Charlotte to talk about what transpired with these marital assets following your husband's death just to make sure that that was handled properly and legally.

And to the extent there needs to be some remedy there so that you have the resources that were yours in the first place for your purposes and to care for your daughter that that's done the way that it should be. And again, that's where a certified kingdom advisor could refer you out to a godly estate attorney that you would establish a relationship with directly there in Port Charlotte. So stay on the line. We're going to get your information and get somebody in touch with you, Casey. And please keep us posted. We'll ask our Faith and Finance Live community to be praying for you as well. We'll be right back. Hey, thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance Live.

I'm Rob West. We're taking your calls and questions today. Plus, in just a moment, Bob Dole will stop by. Did you know last week was the best week of 2023 for the S&P 500? A lot of strength.

Why is that? And where is the market headed from here? Plus, what's the latest on the U.S. economy?

And what about globally as well with all these geopolitical tensions and wars going on in various parts of the world? Well, we'll get Bob's take on all of it. Plus, we'll take a few more of your questions today as soon as we finish our time with Bob Dole today and try to get to as many of those as we can. By the way, let me mention before we talk to Bob Dole, here in the last two months of the year, this is a critical time for us to hear from you with your financial support.

That's right. Faith and Finance Live is, in fact, listener supported, which means we can only do what we do on this broadcast each day because of your generous and faithful support. So, a gift of any amount would go a long way to helping us finish out the year strong. If you can give a gift of $40, $400, or $4,000, we would certainly be grateful. A few of those leadership gifts of $5,000 or $10,000 would be a real blessing as well as we bring God's wisdom and principles to wise stewards literally all across the globe. You help us do that with your gifts.

Just head to faithfi.com, that's faithfi.com, and click the Give button. Thanks in advance. All right, let's head to the phones.

Bob Dole is ready to go and we've got questions. Bob, good afternoon. And to you. Happy Monday.

Happy Monday. Bob, I mentioned the strength in the market last week, the best week of the year for the S&P 500. Obviously, this upside-down world we're in, bad news is good, good news is bad. I guess that was the, once again, what was driving the markets, huh? Yes, it was. I mean, the bond market obviously saw an uptick in price, downward moving yields, and that spurred equities on, but the reasons were some economic weakness.

The number of new jobs announced on Friday was less than expected. We got an okay news on the inflation front, some other news that the economy was slowing. Bonds loved it and stocks said, well, if it's good enough for a bond, I guess it's good enough for stocks.

Yeah, exactly right. Bob, what about the consumer and just how the consumer is holding up? The consumer is holding up well so far. We've talked about this before, and it's the cash on their balance sheets. The latest thinking is the reason they still have so much cash is stocks did so well for the last decade, prior to the last couple years, they've taken some gains and that's cash on their balance sheets. Who knows exactly what the reasons are, but consumers seem to have plenty of cash to go spend money and keep the economy okay.

Yeah, no doubt about that. Bob, what about just your latest assessment of inflation? I know we've gotten some good news, we've gotten some not so good news, so just kind of give us a rundown of the latest data that's affecting where inflation might be headed from here. Yeah, so first of all the facts, inflation peaked at nine percent, that's headline inflation, and is now running around four, just under four.

I like to say the easy work is nine down to four, the really hard work is four down to two. More and more companies are mentioning the word inflation in their reports. We got a good productivity number as you and I talked before, Rob, and that five point nine percent increase in the third quarter, that's good news for inflation. So you got some good news, some not so good news, the wage settlements have been pretty high for unions, that's not good news for the Fed, so there's a lot to do to get inflation from call it four down to two. Yeah, no question and that's really ultimately I think what's going to drive whether we hit that recession or not, but you're still expecting it next year, is that right?

Yeah, we still are. We think the lead indicators for recession starting with the Fed raising rates in 18 months, the most and the fastest they've ever done it before in modern times, that tells us there's probably still some economic weakness in front of us. Earnings reports for the third quarter by and large okay, but the forward comments by management sort well maybe not so strong.

So I think we're seeing some weakness that will become more evident maybe by the end of the year, if not certainly into the first quarter. All right, Bob, and then finally, what about globally beyond the U.S.? Obviously all eyes on those two wars, particularly the one in the Middle East, is that right? Yeah, the Middle East, it's all about oil and so far it's just quote unquote Israel and the Gaza Strip and as long as it stays there, oil's not affected and the markets breathe a sigh of relief, but if the provocations of Iran to even some U.S. facilities lead Iran to be drawn in, the U.S. to be drawn in in some way, oil will be front and center and it will go up in price and that won't be good for the economy.

So keep your eye on the price of oil while you pray for the Middle East. Yeah, that's a great word there, Bob. We'll leave it there for today.

Always appreciate your insights. Thanks for stopping by. Bye now. All right, that's Bob Doll. He's chief investment officer at Crossmark Global Investments where investments and values intersect.

You can sign up for his dolls deliberations at crossmarkglobal.com. All right, let's head back to the phones, try to round out the broadcast here with as many questions as we can get to to Cleveland. Hi Ed, go ahead, sir. All right, Rob, it's always a pleasure speaking to you and first thing I just want to let you know, Rob, I've been so impressed so many times with your empathy with callers such as Cassidy and quite a few others when you make arrangements for a counselor to speak to them, Costri, and that basically blows me away.

I'm a retired Fed that has lived and worked all over the country and then I became a certified lead minister. So, sir, I just want to say to you, well done good and faithful servant. Well, thank you, Ed. Yeah, that means a lot.

Okay, well, I welcome that. Basically, so my stupid question compared to what everybody else is, this has never happened to me before. I was getting gas, okay, and I was trying to use my credit card and what happened was the receipt was the size of, oh, I don't know, a yardstick, okay, and basically it was flying out of the pump and when I went to grab it, I dropped my card, okay, I didn't want to lose the receipt, so I dropped the card. Rob, the card disappeared, seriously. I spent the half an hour there, I could not find it, so what I did was I immediately canceled it and they locked the account and they sent me, they FedExed overnight and I got a replacement and whatnot, but my question to you is if somebody gets that card, they've got my, and somebody will find it eventually, it'll have my name, you know, my full name and that you know, obsolete credit card number on it. Is there anything that they could do with that?

Should I do anything to protect myself from identity theft? You know what I'm saying? I sure do, Ed, and I know that's frustrating and especially given how long you looked for that thing.

I mean, where could it possibly have gone and yet I realize you didn't find it. You did the right thing. I mean, the key is you want to cancel it immediately. You did that and if you did, then there's no danger to you because what's going to happen is that account is going to be immediately reissued under a different credit card, so that one is now obsolete. I would probably, you know, and this is a good practice anyway, just pull the three credit bureau files and annualcreditreport.com.

I'd probably do that every four months, three to four times a year, making sure that there's not any unusual activity on there. Obviously, continue to watch that particular card statement to make sure there's not any unauthorized transactions, but given how quickly you caught that and the fact that all they have is your name and an obsolete credit card number, then there's really nothing they can do to harm you. It's not a bad idea to freeze your credit anyway. It's free to do.

You've got to do it with each of the three bureaus where essentially they'll put a PIN number on your credit file so anybody trying to open a fraudulent account in your name will be stopped in their tracks because the lender won't be able to access your credit file if they can't provide the PIN number. But apart from that, Ed, you did the right thing and I don't think there's any problems there. Okay, but how about if some teenager, some 19-year-old, gets the card and tries to get some other form of ID as a result of it?

Is that possible? Yeah, I can certainly understand that, but I don't think they would have really anything that wouldn't help them anyway. I mean, apart from having your name, which anybody who stops by your house and opens your mailbox can get, you know, they really don't have anything other than an obsolete old credit card. I mean, there's not any other personal information on that card.

So, just somebody having your name only puts you in no greater risk situation than you were already in. Well, thank you so much, sir. And like I said, well done, good and faithful servants. Always a pleasure speaking with you. That means a lot, Ed. God bless you. I appreciate that.

Let's go to Spokane. Hi, Joanne. Go ahead. Thank you.

I certainly enjoy your program. I have a problem that I guess it's my own making, but I do give to different charities, but apparently they in turn either sell or give it to somebody else and I am getting all kinds of mail and I get extra things. I've gotten calendars, I've gotten socks, I've gotten tote bags from all these different people that I have not given to and I feel guilty not giving to them, but yet, I mean, I certainly can't support the world and I get things from, you know, every disease or every animal and every veteran and, you know, how do I help myself? Yeah, well, first of all, I appreciate your generous heart.

Second of all, I don't want you to feel any guilt. You know, New Testament giving is giving freely, giving cheerfully, giving proportionately and even sacrificially, but there's nowhere that guilt should be a part of that and so you need to give as the Lord leads. That means you can't give to everyone, so do for one what you wish you could do for everyone and follow the leading of the Lord and don't let anybody tell you what you need to do.

That's ultimately between you and the Lord as his steward. Secondly, you know, you're getting these solicitations perhaps not because anybody shared your information, but because that's just the reality today. You know, there's 1.2 trillion dollars given charitably each year globally.

800 billion of that comes from the US, so, you know, we're givers. I mean, that could be to a political campaign or it could be to a local church or any other cause, but there's a lot of giving going on and as a result, you're going to get a lot of these requests, so I would just simply call them and ask that you be taken off of their mailing list. If it's something you receive in the mail, if it's an email, I would opt out and then I call each of the ministries that you give to and ask for their policy. I can't imagine they're giving your information in this day and age away to somebody else.

They're just so guarded and with the privacy policies these days, I just wouldn't expect them to do it, but it doesn't hurt to call and ask. Thanks for your call today. We appreciate it. Faith in Finance Live is a partnership between Moody Radio and Faith5. Thank you to Jim, Anthony, Dan, and Amy. See you tomorrow.