The Wisdom to Show Restraint

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Not licensed in Alaska, Hawaii, Georgia, Massachusetts, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Utah. Do not wear yourself out to get rich. Have the wisdom to show restraint. Do not trust your own cleverness. Cast but a glance at riches and they are gone. Those are some wise words to guide us with our investments from Proverbs 23.

Anyone can have a long-range plan for their retirement savings, but sticking to it, ah, that's the hard part. Today, host Rob West welcomes investing expert Mark Billard to talk about that and more. However, we are pre-recorded today, so please hold your calls until next time. I'm Steve Moore.

The wisdom to show restraint. That's next on MoneyWise Live. Well, Rob, our friend Mark Billard is executive editor at Soundmind Investing, where they're always the calming voice of reason when folks are fearful or tempted to throw caution to the wind looking for quick profit.

Well, that's exactly right. Mark, always great to have you back on the program with us. Thanks, guys.

Glad to be back. Today, Mark, we're talking about a great article you have posted on the SMI website. It's entitled The Wisdom to Show Restraint. I guess that's in short supply right now, isn't it?

Yeah, that's right, Rob. You know, there's a measurement of how positive stock market investors are feeling. It's called the Citigroup panic euphoria indicator. And at the beginning of this article that we're talking about, we discuss how last month, this indicator showed that market sentiment was the most euphoric it's ever been in the history of this indicator, even surpassing the reading from the previous peak, which was during the dot com bubble in early 2000.

There are lots of other signs of this euphoria around, too. You can look at things like that GameStop frenzy that I know you talked about here on MoneyWise at the end of January. Now, because we're particularly numbers driven at SMI, we highlighted in the article one of Warren Buffett's favorite market valuation signals. And that's the ratio between the total value of the U.S. stock market and U.S. gross domestic product or GDP. So in other words, this this ratio measures how richly valued is the stock market compared to the actual economy, which makes it a good measure to compare across time as the economy has grown over the decades. Now, this particular indicator was interesting to us because a year ago, exactly one week before the covid-19 bear market began, we wrote an article for SMI readers that showed that this indicator had just surpassed its March 2000 peak level, which was roughly one hundred forty three percent. Now, we fast forward to today, and of course, this is following a full year of these rolling lockdowns and this massive global recession we're trying to fight our way out of. And while you'd expect this ratio would have gone down, the value of the market relative to the economy might have come down.

Just the opposite is true. It's actually soared from one hundred forty three percent a year ago to one hundred and ninety two percent today. Well, so in other words, you know, the stock market has never before been this richly valued relative to the actual economy. Yeah.

Well, fascinating, Mark. How do you account for this, especially since parts of the economy are still, in fact, suffering from covid shutdowns? Yeah. You know, it's it's usually a mistake to try to boil down the market's behavior to any single factor, but I'm not going to let that stop me here. The uncomfortable reality is today's market levels clearly are based to a large degree on the belief that the world's central bankers and governments are justifying these high valuations through low interest rates and just massive fiscal and monetary support. And to their credit, investors have learned over the last dozen years that when governments take these kinds of actions that we're seeing today, a large portion of that support winds up driving up the prices of stocks and bonds. And to be fair, governments around the whole world have never acted at this kind of scale before. And to be fair, you felt like it was necessary, right? Yeah. I mean, they were trying to fill in this giant pothole caused by these economic shutdowns, so they clearly had to do something. Well, just around the corner, we'll talk about the impact of that government induced enthusiasm and much more about these sentiment indicators.

That's right. Mark Biller with us today from soundmindinvesting.org. We're discussing the wisdom to show restraint.

What does the Bible say about all of this? We'll come back with that and more when MoneyWise Live continues. Great to have you with us today. Your host is Rob West.

I'm Steve Moore. Also joining us, it's always a pleasure to have Mark Biller here from soundmindinvesting.org. You really ought to check him out, soundmindinvesting.org. Today, we're talking about a recent SMI article entitled The Wisdom to Show Restraint. And boy, we certainly need restraint when it comes to investing in the stock market as of late. And Mark, just before the break, you were talking about this measurement of how positive stock market investors are feeling right now called the Citigroup panic euphoria indicator, which has recently been through the roof.

And you were talking about that that's in part brought on by this government induced enthusiasm that really has swept the globe as a result of the response of the COVID shutdowns. What's likely to happen as a result of all of this incredible monetary policy and stimulus? Yeah, you know, to be fair, we have to say anything can happen, right? We never know with any certainty what the future is going to hold. But from these current levels, these high valuation stock market levels that we're talking about, the two most likely paths forward seem to be either on the one hand, we will eventually see this market bubble pop anyway. And we get the kind of deflationary bear market type of scenario that we've always seen at the end of prior episodes of significant market excess and euphoria.

So that's one path. The other path is that all of this government spending and borrowing ends up devaluing the value of our money to the point where the 40 year inflation cycle reverses and we start seeing higher inflation again. Now, be very clear, this doesn't necessarily mean that we're talking about like 40% hyperinflation or anything like that. But even a return to inflation of 3%, 4%, 5%, that would be a huge change relative to what we've seen the past couple decades. Now, in that scenario, that inflation could potentially continue to hold asset prices up without there being a big decline, while the real value of those assets is actually eroding little by little due to that inflation. Now, that could potentially give a way out without asset prices having to drop really significantly from current levels. Well, in that second scenario you just described where the erosion of purchasing power is hidden, that's clearly more palatable to policymakers, right?

Oh, absolutely. You know, that's the outcome they're clearly targeting with both their words and their actions. And, you know, they're confident that they can contain this inflation if it shows up, which has historically been a very dangerous game to play, but they want really at all costs to avoid letting the markets go down that deflationary path, the first path, because there's a lot of pain with that, especially when you consider that in all likelihood, the economy would be likely to follow that path down into another recession.

Is it really possible that it could be different this time? I mean, we're looking at all of the warning signs that were overvalued. We're 12 years into a bull market, so the cycle is ripe to roll over.

Can we actually avoid a big bear market at the end of this run-up in stock prices? Yeah, that is certainly the question of the day, right? And we look back to the famous investor John Templeton, who's famous for warning that the words this time is different are among the most costly words in investing.

Yes. Now, what most investors don't remember, though, is Templeton did concede that about 20 percent of the time that phrase is actually true. And I would just say that, you know, this time in many respects is different from the standpoint that we just have no historical precedent to compare today's level of government policy and involvement with. And that does make it impossible for us to say for sure which of these two paths markets are going to follow. So given that, you know, what do we do as investors? What do we do with that uncertainty?

And that's where the verse from Proverbs 23 that Steve quoted at the top really says it all. We need to have the wisdom to show restraint. A lot of investors right now are falling into the trap of blowing right past restraint as they chase future riches and returns right now. But that doesn't mean that we have to do that same thing just because the rest of the market is.

That's a good word. Mark, talk to us just for another moment about this monetary policy, because interest rates are supposed to be an indicator of the real risk that's embedded in the markets and the economy. But if we're manipulating that, aren't we, in a sense, covering up what might actually be going on behind the scenes?

Oh, absolutely. You know, we've got a very large element of when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail going on right now with the central banks. And really, they have been pounding the only policy tools that they have and that they know how to use and hitting them harder and harder over the last 12 years to where over the last year, we've heard the chairman of the Federal Reserve repeatedly punting when asked, you know, what else are you going to do? What else can you do to help the economy? He's continually punting now and saying, we've basically done all we can. We need fiscal policy, which is the Congress, the government, to come in and do their part because from the central bank side with the interest rates, we've done everything we can.

Fascinating. All right, Mark, we've got just a couple of minutes left. What are some tips to help investors check this impulse that we're talking about and really align themselves with God's best for their investments? Yeah, I would say, Rob, the first key to investing in overvalued or potentially euphoric markets like we have today is to focus on risk first and returns second. And that's the opposite of what our natural tendency is when we see the market going up, up and away. Our investment choices regarding what strategies we use, the types of assets that we own, that really needs to be based on the idea that another sharp downturn could happen at any time from these levels where we're at. And then a second kind of related point would be not to take on more risk than is necessary to meet your specific goals. If you've been blessed to be in a position to meet your retirement goals with a less aggressive investment plan than what you used to have.

Well, that's fantastic. You know, dial back your risk. So many investors lose sight of the fact, especially in a hot market like this, that the object isn't to build the biggest nest egg possible. It's not about beating the market, quote unquote. What your goal needs to be is to be a good steward and to be able to meet your future financial needs. And a final point to help steer clear of danger is to set an ultimate finish line and then scale back your investing risk once you reach it.

And that can protect you from sacrificing things you truly treasure, like financial freedom and security in pursuit of things you no longer need, which is more dollars in an investment account. Absolutely. Well, Mark, you always keep us grounded. You always have timely wisdom and analysis. And we're grateful for you stopping by. Well, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. SMI's executive editor, Mark Biller, has been with us today.

You can read his article, The Wisdom to Show Restraint, when you visit them at soundmindinvesting.org. Some great calling questions coming up next. Now, we are prerecorded today, so please hold your calls till next time. You're listening to MoneyWise Live. Good to have you aboard today.

It's MoneyWise Live with Rob West taking your calls. Well, actually, we're not taking your calls today because today's program is prerecorded, but you'll forgive us for that. And I hope stick around because we have some interesting calls and questions all lined up.

So let's begin by going to Chicago. And Gladys, thank you for your patience. How can we help? Hi, thank you for your program.

I certainly appreciate all the advice, and I certainly appreciate the Christian turn towards, so that's wonderful. Thank you. So my question is that I do have an adult son who's trying to establish his credit, and he said that one way that could boost his credit would be if I sign him on as an additional signer on one of my credit cards? Yes. Is he wanting to use the cards, Gladys, or is this simply for the purpose of building credit? Simply for the purpose of building credit.

Yeah, this is in fact one way to help him. If he doesn't want to use it, what you would do is you could add him as an authorized user, but not even give him the card. The lender would send a card, but he wouldn't have to be in possession of it. Now, here's where it benefits you, and this doesn't apply to every credit card issuer, so you'd need to check and make sure this is true for yours. But most credit card issuers will report to authorized user accounts at the three credit bureaus, so essentially your credit would be passed on to his credit file at the three bureaus. Keep in mind, while your good credit helps his credit, your bad credit may also hurt his credit, so this has come to backfire for some people in the sense that they go into it with pristine credit and then lose a job along the way. Something happens that results in a missed payment, and that is also reported to the authorized user's account, so there is a bit of a double-edged sword.

You just have to be careful. He needs to understand that reality, and you do too. But assuming everything is good with your credit, and assuming your credit card issuer does report to authorized user's credit files, then you are absolutely right. Him being added in that way will give him some additional credit as a revolving account, and as long as you're an on-time payer, that's going to be a help to him.

Does that make sense? It does, but I just wanted to be sure that there would be no risk incurred towards me, but it sounds like there would not be any. No, as long as you don't give him the card.

The only risk to you would be that he has the ability legally to charge against that account, and if he doesn't have the card, if he just has the account number, he could charge things online, but as long as you don't feel like that's a risk in the sense that you can trust him, he's not going to use it, that's not his intention, then no, there is no risk to you, because even if he had bad credit on other accounts, that's not in any way going to come back to you. The only information here is going to be related to this particular account. Okay, well thank you so much. That sounds good. I have a lot more pieces about doing this, okay? All right, very good. Thank you again. All right, God bless you guys. Thanks. Well, Rob, I hope you don't mind me asking you this, but I think recently we mentioned on the program it was your son's 16th birthday, so with that in mind, and hopefully he's not listening, what if he came to you and said, Dad, I'm 16, in addition to driving the car, I'd like my own credit card.

What are you saying these days? Using a debit card, and that's in fact what we've done with Colby, my 16-year-old, he and my 14-year-old Mason both have Capital One, what they call money accounts, which is essentially a free student checking account that has a debit card. And they have a great smartphone app. Both boys do work in the sense that they referee games each season at the church, and they get paid to do that, and so as they get that income, it's a great opportunity for them to learn which they have, what it means to tithe, what it means to operate on a spending plan using, by the way, yes, the MoneyWise app, and to have a debit card, which I can move money back and forth on that account.

So if they're going out with friends, and I'm going to provide some money for dinner, I just click a couple of buttons, and it transfers money over to his debit card, and he doesn't have to carry around a lot of cash. So that's the way we've handled it, and we're not using any unsecured credit cards. I like it. You are such a good dad. I'm so impressed, so impressed. Okay, well, before we go to the break, let's take an email. This one comes to us from John. He says, Dear Rob, how much is the right amount of life insurance?

Not a lot of detail there. Yeah, you know, this is a great question, John, and there's something called the DIME method, D-I-M-E, and it stands for debt, income, mortgage, and education. The idea being that you'd want enough life insurance to cover D, debt, all outstanding debt other than your mortgage, but that would typically also include funeral expenses, income, you want to be able to replace your income if you die, and typically 10 times your annual salary is a good rule of thumb for that. M is for mortgage. You want to be able to have enough to pay off the mortgage, and then E is for education. So if you had three children and you wanted to have an estimate of $100,000 per child, you'd want another $300,000 to cover education. D-I-M-E, you put all those together, and that gives you the number you need. Here's the thing that may be a really big number, you know, well in excess of a million dollars, but the good news is with term insurance, if you're healthy, you should be able to buy a good bit of insurance without a lot of expense.

And if you have all of those areas covered, both debt, income, mortgage, and education, you'll put your loved ones in a position where they'll be able to provide for themselves for the rest of their lives. I like it. All right. And John, we appreciate that email.

Thanks very much. Now, if you have a brief question for Rob, keep it to just a couple of lines. You can send it along to questions at moneywise.org, or of course you can call this program, 800-525-7000.

But again, if you'd rather not be on the air, then the address is questions at moneywise.org. And with that, we're going to have to pause for a second. That's that music you hear in the back.

I love that music. He's Rob West. I'm Steve Moore. Remember that today's program is prerecorded. Don't try to call in, but don't go anywhere. We'll be back with some already previously lined up questions. That's a mouthful after this. Nice to have you out there today listening to MoneyWise Live with Rob West. I'm Steve Moore. We're not taking your calls today because today's broadcast is prerecorded. But thanks for being there and for listening. We have some interesting calls lined up. So let's go to Spokane, Washington. Rob and Lori, what's on your mind?

Hi. I am wondering, my husband and I are both self-employed. We have, again, gotten completely debt-free this last year. However, being both of us self-employed, money is not consistent in dollar amounts or in time frames. So is it a big problem to use a credit card periodically more like a line of credit for what you suggest? Well, you know, I'd rather use a savings account rather than a credit card. And I realize it's easier said than done.

But let me back up and explain what I mean by that. You know, especially for somebody who's self-employed, who has irregular income, you know, during a season where you have a lot of jobs and, you know, money's flowing, you get big paychecks, and then there's certain parts of the year or depending on what's going on in the economy or your particular industry. There can be months that are lower, and you've got to balance all that out.

So what I would recommend you do, and it's going to take you several months to implement this, perhaps more than several, is to really get a solid budget that's based on a conservative estimate of one-twelfth of what you expect to bring in over a 12-month period. And so that may mean that you dial back your spending to be able to balance that budget based on that consistent amount. And then when you get those months where you have more coming in than you expect, if you're going to pay that out of the company, you'd want to make sure you put that into savings. And then, you know, you can supplement and create a regular income stream out of an irregular income. But then you self-fund those ebbs and flows over time as opposed to relying on a credit card. Can you use a credit card?

Sure. And yes, it is a line of credit. The problem is, the moment that you can't pay it off because something doesn't materialize the way you expect in the next month, when that bill comes due, now you're paying, you know, 12, 15, 18% interest. And that's really expensive money, not to mention the fact that that tells me, you know, we don't have enough margin there, and we're kind of living paycheck to paycheck. And so it's really symptomatic of larger issues that could spiral downward. If, for instance, we went into with a self-employed situation, a period where you had a longer slowdown, where income, you know, was under pressure, and now all of a sudden, you know, we don't have any reserves. And so we're continuing to mount credit card debt.

And that's just a kind of a recipe for disaster. So it's not so much using the credit card that's the problem. It's that that's an indicator that we don't have enough in the way of reserve. So I think the question is, what would it take right now for you all to get to a place where you could start to build up a couple of months, three to six months worth of expenses over time. But for right now, even just one month's worth of expenses in a savings account, what changes would you need to make to create that margin? And then when we get that budget, right, how can we smooth out the amount of money coming in that you're living on?

So you don't have quite the ebb and flow and challenges that that you might have otherwise. Does that make sense, Laurie? Yes. And that will be much easier now that we are out of debt to start stocking money away for that, you know, three to six months expense basket, where we have been just putting absolutely everything into getting our debt.

So that's great. And once we have a few months of extra money set aside, then we wouldn't have to use that card. Exactly right. And I think part of my other question of how do you make a good budget when your money is so inconsistent? Yeah, and I think that's where you've got to go back and look at the last six months and say, or even 12 months or both and say, what what did we bring in over this 12 month period? What did we bring in over the six month period? And then let's divide that by six or 12 and get a realistic conservative amount to build our budget on. Once you do that, then you need to factor in what you know about kind of the go forward period. Are you heading into a period where, you know, during the winter months in your business, I don't know what it is, but I'm just going to speculate in the winter months, it's slower than the summer. And so we need to plan for that or we know that the our particular segment of the economy has been hit by the pandemic. And so we're going to have a season where business is down for a period of time, you've got to factor all that in.

But starting with the historical to get that conservative baseline, not based on a one or two month slice of time, but based on a six or 12 month slice of time is really the key. The other thing I want to do is I want to give you a six month pro subscription to our new MoneyWise app. It's the it's the envelope system, but in an app form, it'll help you build that budget and you can create multiple plans.

So you can create a plan for this month, but also for February and March and you can plan out. And then as the money comes in, you can allocate it to your envelopes. And I think that'll really help you manage this whole process. So stay on the line, my producer will get your information. And we'll get you a free six month subscription to the MoneyWise Pro app, which you can download in your app store.

Laurie, that's a great call and a great question. And I hope that helps you today. Thank you very much.

We appreciate that. And Rob, before we put a bow on it and hit the next break, we have an email from Rob. He says, Dear Rob and Steve, I'm interested in becoming one of your volunteer financial coaches. Where do I begin?

Yes. Well, I'm so glad you asked because we do have a thriving MoneyWise coach ministry where we're able to help men and women who listen to this broadcast, couples, individuals who are looking to get on a spending plan. We come alongside you for six to 10 weeks at no cost other than a small amount for an electronic workbook that we'll use to walk alongside you as you set up the spending plan, teach you a few of these key biblical financial principles and help you get that whole tracking system in place. If you would like to learn how to be a coach, you can do that on our website.

Just go to MoneyWiseLive.org. And there's a button there that says become a coach. You'll get all the information you need, including when the next course will be. And I understand we're kicking off some courses here in the next month or so. So we'd love to have you a part of that. And we have some people who do this for us. And it's a nationwide ministry, correct?

That's exactly right. Yeah, we cover the entire country, even up into Canada, because all of these coaching sessions are done virtually. So it's a great way to have ministry in this area. This is an area of interest and passion for you. You want to serve God's people by being a volunteer and helping them navigate this really key area of managing God's money. Become a MoneyWise coach.

Again, MoneyWiseLive.org. Just click become a coach. And to clear up any confusion, hopefully I won't be causing any confusion. There is a difference between a budget coach and a certified kingdom advisor.

And often we point people in that direction as well. But these are two separate entities. And one is a professional certified kingdom advisor.

They do what they do for a living and they're certified and they have many years of experience. The budget coaches, that's a ministry. And it basically helps people with basic stuff, budgeting, getting out of debt, learning how to budget, things like that, right? Well, that's exactly right.

Yeah. So certified kingdom advisors are in fact professionals working in one of five disciplines, financial planning, investment management, insurance, tax and accounting, and then estate planning. So yeah, all professionals working in this area with lots of experience and they've been trained to be specialists in biblically wise financial advice.

On the other hand, MoneyWise coaches are in fact volunteers doing this as a ministry, primarily Steve, going to help you with setting up a spending plan, a giving plan or a debt repayment plan. Okay, Rob, thanks very much. Rob West and I, of course, semi-professionals, we do the best we can. We're just glad that you're out there and tuned in. We have to pause for a brief break. We'll be right back. And we're back. Great to have you with us today.

It's MoneyWise Live. Please remember that today's program is pre-recorded. Don't try to call in, but let's say hi to Janice in Chattanooga, Tennessee. What's on your mind, Janice?

Hi. I'm not quite sure how to handle the needs of my granddaughter. She lives with me and she asked me for about $40 per day to eat. It seems excessive.

And I'm not sure how to stop it. I feel like I need to give her some money, but I don't spend that much per day on me. And she just insists she needs that much to be able to eat.

I just think there needs to come a time when she needs to figure out how to supplement whatever I give her, or she needs to, if I give her 40 one day and I tell her she grows 30, excuse me, 40 one day, she needs to be able to carry it over the next day and make it last more than one day. But I'm struggling. It's very stressful and I just don't know how to say no.

I don't know how to stop to this. Yes, yes. Well, Janice, my heart goes out to you because I know we love our kids and our grandkids and we want to do what they want to do. It's like we read in God's Word, you know, just like the Father loves to give us gifts.

We love to give gifts too, right? But at the same time, what he knows about us is what we also need to know about our kids and grandkids that sometimes giving them what they ask for is not serving them well and not in their best interest. And I think what we have to do is be able to step back and say, I love you and I want to give you good things, but I also know what's best for you.

And I need to teach you because I'm preparing you as a future adult. And that includes things like resources are limited and we have to live on a plan. And that plan has more than just one category.

It's probably got 15 or 18 categories of things you have to take God's limited resources and allocate to. And there's just healthy eating and living that goes along with that too. And so kind of in all of that and in your family dynamic of how you're providing as a grandmother and how she's going about getting her meals and how many of them are home and how many of them are outside the home, you know, there needs to be some real thought to that that is not driven by her wants, but driven by really her needs to be eating healthy and your financial resources, God's resources that you're managing. And I think as you step back from that and say, what is best for her?

That needs to be the starting point and ask God to give you wisdom in that. And I think coming up, I think she's onto something here. It's a daily amount, but it's not $40. So I think we've got to go back and say, how do we create a weekly plan? And perhaps you plan out the meals, you know, not to get too fine a detail here, but create a weekly plan that says how many meals are going to be in the home and what are those and how many meals are going to be outside the home? And where is she eating?

What's she putting into her body and how much should that cost and come up with an amount perhaps for the week or if she's not old enough to handle that, you know, per day. But I if she's not old enough to handle it per week, it might be a good lesson because if she ran through it and you say, I'm sorry, it's out. And so you're now going to have to, you know, find things in the refrigerator because you're done. You know, that's going to teach a really important lesson that will pay dividends for the rest of her life. And so I think you've got to do it out of love and a desire to train and equip and model the right behavior before the Lord. And when it gets hard, I think that's what you have to come back to, because saying no is never easy. But when you're saying no, because you know it's in her best interest, it does make it a little bit easier. But you've got to you've got to be really firm once you make this decision on this is what it is and it'll get easier. But only if you can stick to it, because the moment you start to give, then all of a sudden she realizes, wait a minute, if I push hard enough, I'll get my way. And, you know, then you're going to have a battle on your hands just about every day. So I think you need to step away from it, pray, make an educated decision, come up with a set amount and then go back to her and sit down and say, for these reasons, this is what you have available and this is what the week is going to look like related to food.

And I'm going to help you, but let's work a plan that lives within that because there is no more money. It's just not there. And you might as well not even ask. Does that make sense, Janice?

It does. I've tried to do that before, but I've failed. But I'm going to try again. And you're exactly right. And one thing I will add that might help the audience is I made it where that I would give her this cash and I told her it was petty cash. And before I would replenish it, she would have to give me a receipt. And she did it a few times. And then she would always have excuses why she couldn't give me the receipt, which to me, I wasn't sure if she was lying or what. And then, you know, so that seems to be teaching her responsibility. However, she fails in it. And so I'm setting her up to fail because I've been I allow it.

And I think perhaps maybe if she didn't give me a receipt that I say, well, you get no money or you miss a day without getting any money from me because you didn't give me a receipt. Yes. I think that's right. As long as you can stick to it, because if you're going to put the rules in place and you're going to allow them to be broken, it'd be better if you didn't put the rule in place in the first place. So you've got to be committed to really following through on what it is you decide.

Steve, what were you going to add? Janice, I'm a parent and a grandparent, and I just like to suggest that maybe there's something good in giving her all the money for the week, let's say, or maybe at least Monday through Friday, five days. Yes, there's the there is the chance that she'll spend it all in two days instead of stretching it out over five or six. But it will give her an opportunity to learn how to handle money. The fact that it's in my hand doesn't mean I can spend it.

I've got to work off some sort of a budget. And yes, that can be hard and difficult, too. But again, we're trying to teach.

And I think if you tell her just as often as you already do how much you love her, then we just pray that that'll come around. But great question. Great comments and insights on your part. And we'll pray that things work out well. You let us you keep us posted on that. God bless you. Thanks so much. St.

Cloud, Minnesota. Mohammed, how can we help you, sir? What's your question? My question is, what did Jesus teach about usury? I have Christian friends who talk to me about their interest bearing savings accounts, and I tell them I can't use that stuff because of usury. And I feel I need to have a Christian answer regarding what the Messiah taught usury and taking usury. Yeah, and keep in mind that usury isn't lending money.

It's lending money at an exorbitant interest rate. So the Old Testament prohibited charging interest except to foreigners and then not excessively. So Jesus didn't condemn charging interest in Luke 23, the parable of the 10 minus.

While this was a reference in a parable and doesn't necessarily imply approval, it seems unlikely he'd use a positive illustration when he believed that was wrong. So I think what we take away from that is charging interest per se isn't wrong. It's appropriate for living lending institutions, but only the exception of that is not for individuals if they're loaning to fellow believers to help them meet their needs so that the interest is charged. Again, not to a fellow believer, but outside of that, it should be no more than the current, you know, call it inflation rate or prime rate.

You know, we don't want it to be exorbitant. And, you know, in the Fair Credit Reporting Act, what we saw is that usury replaced truth in lending. So, you know, it used to be that it was usury couldn't happen. And then when they went to truth in lending, as long as they disclosed what the interest rate was, they could charge whatever they want. And so it was a move away from this biblical concept that we see. So I think what the key here, the big takeaway is there's nothing wrong with charging interest. We should not do it with a fellow believer. But if we do charge interest, it should never be at an exorbitant interest rate beyond what would be normal and customary for the day. And I think those are the big ideas we see in Scripture as we apply kind of the ancient times to the modern day.

Mohammed, we're glad you called today. It's not a question we get very often, but it's an interesting one to say the least. And Rob, so again, usury, I mean, it's not even that term isn't used all that often these days, but that's not just interest. That's an exorbitant amount of interest. Unless, of course, we're talking about a fiduciary responsibility that a bank or someone like that would have, right? Yeah, again, usury is all about the exorbitant interest rate charged to another. And so we don't want to take advantage of someone based on their financial condition or where they're at, their desperate need for money.

And oftentimes we do that. We see that's called predatory lending is another term for it. But essentially it's usury.

And we see that term in the Bible and it essentially means the same thing today. You know, Rob, one aspect of managing our money well comes up all the time on this program. And that's, well, managing our money, the actual act of budgeting, saving, spending, doing it with a plan. And that's where the MoneyWise app comes into play. And it's something that was really on your heart for the last couple of years and something that you were able to put into play with just a little bit of time.

Tell us about that. Yeah, you know, we have the new MoneyWise app and it's really focused on providing a digital envelope experience. So you can download all of your transactions, connect to your institutions and have a way to track God's money in the tried and true envelope method of doing so, which basically says at any given time what's left in my envelopes. And that then governs my spending and putting it in the palm of your hand in the form of a smartphone app or a tablet just makes it really easy and convenient. So if you'd like to check it out, we'd love for you to do that.

You can find it in your app store, whether it's the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. Just search for MoneyWise Biblical Finance. Thank you, Rob. Well, that's it for today, MoneyWise Live.

This program is a partnership between Moody Radio and MoneyWise Media. And of course, you're a partner as well. And we thank you for that very, very, very much. Hope you have a great remainder of your day. Come back and join us again next time.