How Shall We Then Live?

In Matthew 4, Jesus warns, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Put another way, the trappings of the world lead only to hunger.

We can never fill the God-shaped hole in our soul with money and possessions. Today, host Rob West talks with Compass founder Howard Dayton about a way of living that truly satisfies spiritual hunger. Then it's your calls at 800-525-7000. Jot that down, 800-525-7000. I'm Steve Moore.

How shall we then live? That's next on MoneyWise Live. Rob, our friend Howard Dayton is the author of Your Money Counts, now more than ever.

And today we're focusing on just one chapter about choosing a lifestyle that pleases God. Wow, that's right, Steve. And Howard, welcome back to the program.

A delight to have you with us again. Oh, great to be with you, Rob. Howard, this is a real challenge for us here in America, the most affluent nation in history, with its many worldly trappings and temptations, isn't it? It really is. And it's true, even when we're following God's financial principles.

And let me just give you an example, Rob. I was invited to attend the second anniversary of a very special event. Today, some friends reached the goal of becoming debt-free. They were so grateful, but really, more importantly, their marriage was growing stronger. And it's actually been a real struggle for them to save their marriage when they were being suffocated by debt.

But they soon discovered they were facing a new challenge. Their income now exceeded their expenses, so how should they spend the surplus? Should they move to a larger home or stay in the current one, work to get the mortgage paid off?

Should they purchase a new car? Should they adopt a more expensive lifestyle or continue to save and give more? And you know, the Bible just doesn't dictate one standard of living for everybody. But the good news is, Scripture contains principles that we should consider when we choose a lifestyle. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because those principles are key. And that's what we all want to understand and then apply to our lives as it relates to managing God's money. So why don't we begin to unpack those principles, starting with seeking an eternal perspective, which I think is really a foundational idea.

It is the big idea, it really is. And you know, in our culture, the media and advertisers try to influence us to focus on today with no thought of eternity. But when you think about it, our time on earth is so brief when compared with eternity, but we really have the opportunity to influence what happens in eternity for many lives by how we handle our money today. We can spend money to influence people for Christ and as a byproduct lay up treasures for ourselves in heaven. So having an eternal perspective has a huge impact on our decision making. And I think Moses is a great example.

Hebrews tells us that by faith, Moses, when he had grown up refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill treatment with the people of God than enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ's greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking forward to the reward. And we face a similar decision today. We can either live with a view toward eternity, or live focused just on this present world.

And Rob, do you remember wanting to get something so much you could almost taste it? Yet today, it means almost nothing to us. I think we're going to experience something similar to that when we are in heaven. Oh, it's so true, Howard. And, you know, this is such, as you said, a big idea that shapes everything about how we view God's money and our role as a manager looking forward to the life that is to come, because we have to remember, Howard, where our true citizenship lies, right?

That's exactly right. We are citizens of heaven, according to Philippians 3. And then Hebrews 11, Rob defines us as aliens, strangers, and pilgrims on this earth. And when you think about it, a pilgrim is a traveler. You know, he's somebody who's acutely aware that the excessive accumulation of things can only distract him from reaching his destination. Material possessions are valuable to a pilgrim at this only as they facilitate his mission. That's exactly right. Author, teacher, and the former host of this very radio program, Howard Dayton, is with us today.

Back with more after this. God cares a great deal more about our money than most of us imagine. In fact, Jesus says more about our use of money and possessions than about anything else, including both heaven and hell. In managing God's money, author, Randy Alcorn, breaks it all down in a simple, easy to follow format that makes it the perfect reference tool if you're interested in gaining a solid biblical understanding of money, possessions, and eternity. Managing God's money is available when you click the store button at moneywiselive.org. Investing is more than just returns.

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Okay. Searching for MoneyWise on the App Store. Learn more at app.moneywise.org. So privileged to have the founder of CompassOne.org, Howard Dayton, with us today. We're discussing just how we shall live knowing Christ is our Savior, particularly as we approach the birth of Jesus Christ our Lord on Christmas Day. Howard, we were talking just before the break about this big idea that we as stewards or managers of God's resources need to have, and that is an eternal perspective. We need to hold what we have loosely and really see heaven as our home, which means, as you said, we need to see ourselves as pilgrims, those that are passing through the temporal.

And yet there's a tension there. Howard, how do we go about owning homes and owning furniture and having perhaps a business that we're building? And those are appropriate things, things we need to do, and yet we need to make sure that we don't hold too tightly to them and get so fixated on the things of this world.

How do we strike the balance? Well, that's a great question, and the answer is there's nothing wrong with owning a house or furniture or developing a business, but the key is for us to maintain a pilgrim mentality of traveling light. You know, acquire those possessions that enable us to fulfill God's calling on our particular lives, because every possession requires time, attention, often money to maintain it, and too many or the wrong types of possessions for us as we individuals can't demand too much of our time, energy, or money. And it's interesting that in 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul really encourages us to live a simple, quiet life. He's intimating that it's the best environment to allow us time to nurture our relationship with the Lord.

He says this, make it your ambition to live a quiet life and attend to your own business so that you may behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need. And I think it's important, Rob, for us to recognize, and make no mistake about it, that we're in a spiritual war. Advertisers, the media spend hundreds of billions of dollars for one purpose, and that's to get our focus off Christ and on our stuff. And so even though it's invisible, we're in the middle of fighting the most important war in history, because it has eternal consequences for people all around us. And I was reflecting on this the other day, and you know, in a war, wartime, the civilians often alter their lifestyles big time just to help win the war. During World War II, for instance, the British realized their very survival was at stake, so they rationed everything that was needed for the war effort.

To give you an example, they rationed gas, of course, and everybody drove what they called the victory speed of 35 miles an hour, except less on life's comforts, so the army could be adequately supplied. That's great, Howard. Howard, I know you well enough that I think that I can ask you this question without you getting upset with me, but I mean, you're, no, you've always lived a frugal lifestyle, I would say a comfortable lifestyle, but I know you well, and you've lived a very frugal lifestyle, but have you ever, I mean, you don't have to reveal what this is, but have you ever had a thing, an item, a time in your life when you really struggled a bit without buying that fifth set of golf clubs, or that third Cadillac, or, I mean, have you ever had, and I joke about those things, because you don't have fancy cars or play golf, but have you ever had an issue like that? Oh, yeah, I think everybody has.

I mean, I'll never forget it. I saw a commercial once, and they were advertising this sharp looking van. Our family had a secondhand, I think it was about a 15-year-old station wagon painted the ugliest yellow on the market, and I found myself being attracted to this new van.

It was perfect for our family, just the right size and color, of course. I found myself studying these beautiful slick brochures, daydreaming about driving one. I mean, I was hooked, and what was interesting was the yellow station wagon grew uglier and uglier every day. I was about to buy the van, decided to buy a new one, and it was a good day. I was about to buy the van, decided that I would go down to talk to Jack Norman, a good friend, local car dealer.

We used to call it the rotten jakita. I mean, it was so ugly in color, and he looked it over and said, you know, you've only got 55,000 miles on this vehicle. The station wagon is in good condition. It should last you years. You know, I didn't want to hear that, but I knew he was right, and his advice saved us thousands of dollars. And get this, the second I decided to keep the jakita, that yellow station wagon, I lost the desire for the van, and the yellow station wagon actually become better looking. So from time to time, I think all of us get hooked on something we think we've got to buy. And when that happens, seek the Lord's guidance and the counsel of a godly person or people before making that spending decision. It can sometimes save you a lot of money when you do that. Howard, when I ask for an example, I'm thinking sports cars. I'm not thinking you in a van, okay? Could you spruce that example up a little bit?

I mean, come on. Well, Howard, as we begin to wrap up here today, obviously in this season as we're celebrating Christ's birth, along with it comes the opportunity to give gifts to those that we love, people on our path, hopefully as an open door even to share the love of Christ during this season, but with that comes spending money. So help us navigate that. How do we spend in a way that pleases the Lord and avoid, especially in this season, getting caught up in the comparison trap, wanting to perhaps outspend somebody else or not feel like we didn't do enough and go beyond our budget?

How do we navigate that? I think the most important thing, Rob, is to ask the Lord what he wants us to do. Prayerfully submit spending decisions to the Lord.

Yeah. Where you do it with an open hand, saying, Father, I want to know what's on your heart, put it on my heart, make it clear to me what I should buy, what I should not buy. I'll never forget the time my wife asked us to buy, it was a microwave. When microwaves first came out, I thought it was, you know, an excessive purchase for Christmas.

It's hard to believe these days, everybody having one, but I did tell her I would pray and seek counsel and got together with actually the elders of the church I was part of and just threw that out to them and they said, go get it, it's your opportunity to serve your wife, and so I did, and it turned out to be a real blessing to us. So I think that submitting every spending decision, especially major ones, to the Lord during this season is the safest and the most God-honoring thing to do. Well, it sure is, and thank you for the reminder today, Howard, that our culture tells us acquiring stuff is the most important, but Scripture reminds us that living a reasonable lifestyle so we can invest more time and resources for influencing people for Christ is what life is all about. Merry Christmas, my friend. Thanks for stopping by. Oh, I loved it, Rob.

God bless you guys. Howard Dayton is the author of Your Money Counts. Now more than ever, you'll find it online or his website, compassone.org. We'll be right back with more MoneyWise Live after this. You probably have a strategy for your finances, your career, even your retirement, but do you have a strategy for your giving? At the National Christian Foundation, we can help you create a giving strategy to inspire your family, maximize your resources and leave a lasting legacy of faith.

To learn how, visit moneywise.org slash ncf. Money and life run on the same track, but unfortunately, sometimes it seems like your money is heading in a different direction from your goals. In Never Enough, Three Keys to Financial Contentment, author Ron Blue helps you to break down all your financial options to a basic four and then shows you how to keep it all chugging along in the right direction on the same track.

Never Enough, Three Keys to Financial Contentment, available when you click the store button at moneywiselive.org. People in sports law says that the Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword. Here's Beth Moore with a quick word. We cannot see eternity, but there are clues, there are things that stick out of the crate that our eyes can see that make us know, oh, it is there all right. It is there all right.

I want to pitch you some of those very things. I want to give you a statement that we're going to work from so that we can see where the conflict begins. So we see in this particular passage of scripture, very important to our lesson, that God, everybody say that with me, has set what? Eternity in our hearts. In the hearts of man, every single person saved or lost has eternity set in their hearts.

Now with that in mind, I want you to jot this down. Our bodies are subject to time, but our hearts are subject to eternity. Now I want you to think about it because do you understand, would you stare at that sentence or would you think it through very carefully and would you understand why we stay in conflict all the time? With ourselves, just with living, because we have physical bodies that are totally subject to the temporal and to the things of this earth, but our hearts had eternity set in them.

And so we're at constant conflict, even so far, if I may suggest chaos, that there are feelings at times of chaos or that inability to get things to hang on. We have two ways to experience now that faith has come, a study of Galatians. The online experience is now available at Bethmore.org.

The workbook edition will release in January, 2021. Either way, Beth would love to have you in Bible study. Keep listening for another Quick Word with Beth Moore.

Hey, great to have you with us today. It's MoneyWise Live. Rob West here taking your calls and questions. Anything financial will do at 800-525-7000. Jot that down and give us a call.

We have open lines, a bunch of open lines right now, 800-525-7000. I'm Steve Moore. And Rob, I know I always say this, but what a great blessing to be able to speak with Howard Dayton. He's a man that I've hung around for quite a long time. And I can say without exaggeration that he is a man who lives what he preaches and teaches. He's just a quality guy.

It's amazing, Steve. He is an incredible person, has just had an incredible ministry as well all over the globe through his writing and teaching. And to call him friend and mentor is just a huge blessing. I know you would share that sentiment as well.

We love having him on the broadcast. Well, and to call him frugal is the truth, irritatingly so, irritatingly so. Howard, you don't have to reuse everything. Oh my goodness.

Oh my goodness. You were trying to get him to talk about that sports car he's been on. He said, well, there was a time when I wanted a van. A van, right? No, Howard, we're looking for some real dirt here, Howard. We're looking for, you know, and no, he's a guy that goes crazy over a van and he does drive, still drives a 2013 Toyota Camry. Is that right? Yeah, that's another story for another day.

Let's hope we don't go there. 800-525-7000, Caleb in Atlanta. Sir, thanks for hanging on and what's your question? All right, well, thanks for taking my call. I am getting married and my fiance and I are exploring the option of a prenup. You know, nothing says romance like, hey honey, please sign this prenuptial agreement. We're, you know, trying to look for wisdom and prudence and wanted your perspective on the prenup.

Wow, sure. Well, first of all, congratulations on your upcoming marriage. Did I hear you say or if you didn't say, would you mind telling us is this a second marriage or have a, would this be the first marriage for both of you? It is the second marriage for both of us. Okay.

All right. And tell me why you don't have to say kind of what the financial situation is of each of you, but why just kind of at a high level are you considering it? Well, we are entering the marriage and one of us is bringing a considerable amount of net worth compared to the other. And we've had, you know, professionals that have suggested that we at least explore the idea. So sure.

Yeah, that makes sense. And do either of you have children? Yes, I have three children.

She has no children. Okay. All right.

Very good. Well, you know, here's the thing, Caleb, I think whenever you have to, whenever you wrestle with this conversation and idea, you have to start with God's design for marriage, which is intended to be a thriving lifelong relationship between a man and a woman and to become one flesh. And so, you know, that includes every facet of our lives, the emotional, the spiritual, the economic, every part of our lives merges. And under the Lordship of Christ, that's the best path for marriage.

It's God's design and intent. And clearly that includes our money. We also need to recognize, you know, marriage is a covenant, not a contract. I think in our society today, oftentimes we try to reduce it to a contract, almost like a business arrangement.

It's not a 50-50 contract. It's a 100-100 covenant between husband and wife where we sacrifice our self-interest for the interest of the other and move forward with God's plan for us as one flesh, as a married couple. Now, is it ever legitimate to think about, consider a prenuptial agreement? And I would say, you know, that would certainly not be my first choice, but I do think there is a place for it, especially when we're talking about a second marriage where we have perhaps blended families.

We might have an already started business that has unique financial situations. When we're thinking about an inheritance for money that was created, it's all the Lord's, but the wealth was created prior to the marriage because of the business or whatever the circumstances are. And so the inheritance going to the children from a previous marriage wants to be protected, or there may be trust funds. In some cases, there's significant debt or extreme assets coming into the equation, and certainly a business created prior to marriage would be one of those. I think, though, we need to be on our guard against a prenuptial agreement, though, that's driven by motivations around emotional considerations like fear of being taken advantage of or negative experiences with money, the desire for control, selfishness, those kinds of things. You know, that obviously is not a reason to consider one, and what's far more important than the prenuptial agreement is to make sure that you're both ready to fully commit and trust one another. But again, as long as it's done in the context of the right motivations, with a lot of open communication and dialogue, and I would say, perhaps with either a counselor or a mentor couple that's a godly couple that has some experience in this area, and a godly estate planning attorney who could be the one to help navigate these issues and actually draft any documents that are created, then it's not one of those situations where I would say there's never a place for it or it's sinful in any way. Again, it's all about the heart motivation, the reasons why, but if some of those factors are there and it's handled in the way that I described and not for the wrong reasons, then I think it can be appropriate. But it's got to be a lot of prayer that goes into it, and the last thing you would want would be to go into this without that open dialogue and understanding, and there to be a wedge created on the front end as you're just getting started in this newly formed marriage where there's just some resentment or some emotions that are behind the scenes that maybe aren't going to manifest themselves right away and yet will create a real challenge for you as a couple as you get started. Does that make sense, though?

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that any time you mention a prenuptial agreement, the emotions, first of all, get there, and it seems like there may be some avenues in what you're saying, such as trust or trust funds to kind of protect the children from an existing marriage or from a previous marriage. Yeah, that's exactly right. We've got to hit a break here, Caleb. Hang on the line. We'll talk a bit more after the hour. We appreciate your call today. We will indeed. Caleb, thanks very much.

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Request your copy with any gift to MoneyWise of $25 or more at MoneyWise. With SRN News, I'm John Scott. A major winter storm is poised to drop as much as two feet of snow in some places over the next 24 hours. Heavy snow has been falling for a couple of hours in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where forecasters say a six-decade-old record for a December snowfall could be broken. With sleet snow and high winds expected into the evening and overnight, officials were imposing lower interstate speed limits and phasing in restrictions on trucks and other commercial vehicles due to the nor'easter.

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Stocks finishing mix, the Dow was up 44 points, the Nasdaq gained 63. This is SRN News. Welcome back to MoneyWise Live. We're so glad to have you along with us today as we take your phone calls and have an opportunity to interact with you, hear your stories, and share God's wisdom and principles for your life as it relates to his money. Remember, you're a steward, you're a manager of God's resources, and let's go right back to the phones. You know, we always love to hear success stories, stories of people who have applied God's principles of managing money and want to call and share about it.

And I think that's exactly what Tim wants to do from Tennessee. Tim, good afternoon. Hi, good afternoon, guys. How are y'all doing? Doing great. We appreciate you stopping by today.

What do you have for us? Well, stopping by, I'm still doing 56 miles an hour. I drive a truck for a living. All right.

Well, you be careful. Always listening to y'all's principles has helped me, especially the one about the snowballing debt. And as it stands right now, even though I live paycheck to paycheck, I'm looking to be, by next Christmas, I will be debt-free due to that one principle.

And that was also having a knee replacement back in January. I can see exactly where y'all's principles come into play. Well, I appreciate that testimony, Tim. Tell us how you did it. So, first of all, how much credit card debt were you starting with? And then what did you do to create some margin so you could start snowballing that debt with your excess? Well, actually, I didn't have any credit card debt, but I had a phone. I'd been in a wreck, so I had a few medical bills and I just started with the lowest. I kept my payments going.

On the ones that I couldn't keep up with, I would call them and say, can we work this out? And they worked out a payment plan. And just last month I paid another one off and probably in two months I'm going to pay another one off. And then my next one is the big one from the knee replacement and it will take me till November next year to pay off. But I'm hoping as my finances continue to get better, I'm going to start adding more to it and see if I can't pay it off early too. Yeah, that's great, Tim.

Well, I appreciate you calling in and sharing that story today. I think the key is that you've got to have that spending plan, right? You've got to understand what are your obligations. You've got to try to create some margin.

But the idea that you'd apply the snowball lowest balance to highest and just move right down the line, knocking one off at a time is really key. Imagine when they're all paid off and now you can build up and fully fund that emergency fund and then start thinking about perhaps saving for the future or even increasing your giving. I love it. We appreciate you calling in today to share your story. Yeah, God bless you, Tim. Thanks and Merry Christmas to you, sir. Let's move along. Let me give the number again, 800-525-7000 because we have a few open lines so this is a great opportunity. If you've been trying earlier in the day or yesterday or the day before, this is a good day to try 800-525-7000. We'd love to hear from you.

Chicago, Terry, what's on your mind? Oh, hi, and I just want to thank you so very much for your show. I just found Jesus in August of this year and he has just been working miracles through my whole life and I was a terrible debtor in the past and I know through listening to your show and advice of my church I've been contacting my past creditors and just like with the previous gentleman, making payments when I can and I'm on unemployment right now. I'm looking for a new job but the big problem that I have is with the IRS.

I was very bad. I didn't file many years of tax returns and I owe them quite a bit of money and I know that I need to pay that money off and it's a huge burden for me. It's bringing me tremendous guilt and shame and I have every intention to pay them but I'm very much afraid and I don't know how to proceed in order to contact them to make arrangements for a payment agreement and I was hoping that you might be able to give me some advice as what might be the best way. I'm very concerned about any kind of potential prosecution but I do want to make this right and I do want to get that paid off in full and I'm wondering if you could help me with what the first step would be for me to do that.

Sure, Terry. Well, I appreciate your call today and I'm delighted to hear that you're purposing yourself to get your finances in order and my experience, Terry, is that when you invite God into your financial life, it tends to have a ripple effect throughout every other area. When we bring this area under the Lordship of Christ, my experience is that it really has an effect on your whole spiritual walk and we all make mistakes, right? We're sinners, which is why we need a Savior and in this financial area, there's nothing we can't leave at the foot of the cross and ask the Lord to intervene and really purpose ourselves as stewards to be found faithful and to be able to move forward managing God's money according to his principles, which means clearly honoring our obligations, including those obligations to the government, to the IRS. You know, certainly the IRS can prosecute criminally in situations like this and yet my experience, Terry, is that when you voluntarily engage them in this conversation, acknowledge that there is a significant amount owed and tell them your intention is to pay it in full and that you want to work that out on a payment plan, that they are very willing to do that.

So I would not run away from this. I know it's something that's weighing on you. I can tell you that weight will begin to lift as soon as that conversation is started and you see it moving in a direction that's positive, but the longer you wait and run from it and hope that it just goes away, obviously, you know, at some point the IRS is going to take action. It's good news that they haven't already and I think the next step to your question is really to engage a tax advocate, somebody who can on your behalf represent you in engaging the IRS and opening this conversation. They've had a number of programs in the past and some that are current in place. There's the IRS Fresh Start program for those who owe $50,000 or less. There's been some amnesty programs along the way and so, again, they want to work with you, especially when you're coming to them voluntarily saying, I want to make this right and pay back what I owe. So where would you go from here?

Well, I think there's a couple of options. Number one, you could call the IRS and ask for a tax advocate, somebody that they would assign to you that would represent you in those conversations. My preference, though, would be for you to seek out a godly, either enrolled agent or a tax attorney, someone who has real experience representing taxpayers before the IRS and has a real competency in that area. So what I might do is reach out to a couple of certified kingdom advisors in the Chicago area and ask for a referral to either a tax attorney or a CPA or enrolled agent who, again, has that particular expertise in that area of IRS representation. And you'll find some CKs there in Chicago.

And, you know, if you call two or three of them, it's pretty common that they would have in their Rolodex a godly tax preparer or EA that could be able to help you. That's where I would go next. And we'll just pray that this is met with open minds and a willingness to work with you. And certainly, I appreciate your desire to be found faithful in this area.

Yeah. Terry, keep us posted. We will pray with you about this. And we'll ask our MoneyWise listeners to pray with you as well. Keep Terry in your thoughts and prayers. And we'll be right back after this.

Counselors.org or call 800-557-1985. The financial wealth you leave behind could be the best thing that ever happened to your loved ones or the worst. In Splitting Heirs, giving your money and things to your children without ruining their lives, Ron Blue explains why it's important to make these decisions now instead of forcing your heirs to do it later. Splitting Heirs will foster a real appreciation for the precious resources that God has entrusted to you.

And it's available when you click the store button at MoneyWiseLive.org. This is Barry McGuire. I'm a car guy here to help you understand God's purpose for your life through the eyes of a layman. Have you ever stopped to consider why you don't share your faith at every opportunity? If you understand the unending hordes of hell, how can you not be concerned? That's where most of the people around you are headed.

In the words of Penn Jillette, how much would you have to hate me to not tell me, especially your loved ones? We've been so numb by the call to political correctness out of fear of offending someone that we've become more fearful of man than of God and the consequences of not obeying him. His message of denying us before his father when we deny him before man is more than ominous, but more importantly, the eternal destination of your friends and loved ones hangs in the balance. How many people will be in heaven or, God forbid, miss heaven because of your influence? Your job is to ignite revival outside the walls of your church by moving everyone every day closer to Jesus.

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MoneyWise Live, it's a place where God's direction for your money, your life, your marriage, and your career all meet together with your phone calls at 800-525-7000. Let's continue on out to Indy, Indianapolis, and Beverly. We appreciate your patience. How can we help you? Hello.

Thank you, sir, for taking my call. I have a question on credit cards. I'm paying one off. I have it down to 667, and it's through my credit union, which has the lowest interest. But I have a capital loan card, which is $7,919.

I heard a piece of your program in the car one day. You were talking about how you could get it paid off quicker and easier, but you stopped the credit card? You just do away with that credit card? Sure. Let me explain that, Beverly. Do you just have the two, though, quickly? Yes.

Okay, very good. What you probably heard us talking about is what's called credit counseling. For some people, they have enough excess, and they're on track to pay it off on their own. They use the snowball method, like we heard a previous Caller Today reference, where they line up the balances, lowest balance to highest.

It's a manageable amount, and then they just start knocking them off. They do that themselves. Others, when you have a bit more debt, like you're describing here, or you have real high interest rates, which it sounds like you do probably on the Capital One, not necessarily on the credit union, that's where credit counseling can be really effective. Essentially, what happens is you begin paying the cards through the debt management or the credit counseling agency. These are non-profit credit counseling agencies registered with the credit card companies, and when you're in a credit counseling program, the credit counseling agencies have pre-negotiated lower rates. As long as you're paying through, in this case Christian credit counselors, who we work with, then you're going to enjoy a much lower rate. You'll send one monthly payment that'll be consistent throughout the life of the payback, and the combination of that consistent level monthly payment combined with the lower interest rates that come through credit counseling allows you to pay off the debt on average 80% faster.

Now, what are the implications of that? Well, when an account is entered into credit counseling, again thereby reducing the interest rate, the account does have to be closed, which means it just simply can't be used any longer. It will be noted on your credit report that it's in credit counseling, but the fact that you're in credit counseling is not a part of the credit scoring formula, so it shouldn't affect your credit score, although it will be there, and if somebody pulled a copy of your credit because you were seeking additional credit, they'd see you were in credit counseling, and that could have an effect on you, but again, right now the goal is not to take on new debt and open new credit lines. The goal is to get you out from under it, so that would be the direction I would head, Beverly. I think you'd really enjoy that. Christian Credit Counselors are wonderful folks.

They're all godly individuals. They'll come alongside you, help you take a look at your spending plan, tell you exactly what the interest rate would be, and then get you set up on the credit counseling program, so the next step is for you to go to their website. It's christiancreditcounselors.org and let us know how it turns out. We'd love to hear more. Yeah, we have a wonderful working relationship with those folks, Beverly, and we've heard nothing but good things from those that they've counseled from this program, and we wish you the best.

Merry Christmas. Crete, Illinois. Hey, Dave, where's Crete? Oh, it's just a little south of Chicago.

South of, see, I should have known that, and I don't, so my fault. I apologize. Okay, how can we help you, my friend? Our son is going to be going to college next year fall, and me and my wife always struggle with, well, not struggle, but we kind of lean towards having him pay for college himself or at least pay through scholarships and, you know, and student loans, and then on the other side of it, then I start feeling bad. Well, maybe I should, we should help him out some, so I guess my question is, like, what are you guys' thoughts on, like, when your kids, when kids go to college, should they, you know, like, have skin in the game, like, pay for some of it, or I just, I was just looking for your thoughts, I guess. Yeah, well, it's a great question, Dave, and I think that it really starts with you and your wife coming together and prayerfully considering what it is you'd like to be able to do, and that's a function of both the financial side, recognizing that you're going to have limited resources, and, you know, you need to think about your own financial status in terms of your ability to save for the future. There are ways to pay for college, you name some of them, notably scholarships and, you know, working perhaps on campus, you know, maybe not the first year, but, you know, at some point during the college career, maybe working during the summer, even student loans in a manageable way, but there is not ways to pay for retirement apart from saving diligently for the future, and so if your ability to help your kids go to college really hinders your ability to stay on track with your long-term financial plans, I would just, you know, weigh that heavily into the equation, but let's say you have the ability to help out in a meaningful way.

I think the key is really deciding, you know, what your philosophy is on this. I think there's something that I think there's something to be said about students knowing that they at least have to own a part of that, which is going to give them more incentive to get good grades leading up to college, staying involved in, you know, various campus clubs and community service and other activities that will really present well and help them maximize any scholarship dollars that are available, and then perhaps even thinking about, you know, contributing to part of it by, as I said, working during the summer. I was a resident assistant on campus and, you know, had my housing paid for by, you know, living, you know, on one of the floors and being responsible for the guys in my dorm on that floor, and then I actually my senior year managed the Christian radio station on campus, and, you know, that was a part of my college experience, but it was a way for me to contribute to, you know, part of the cost. My wife ended up getting over a hundred thousand dollars in scholarships because her mom, single parent, said if you're going to go to college you've got to find a way to pay for it.

The money's just not there, and so they turned their living room into a college scholarship application factory for months and months and applied for hundreds of them, and the Lord really provided some significant dollars. She was able to pay for her entire education that way, so I think you've just, you know, you've got to approach it really that way thoughtfully and prayerfully, but the other thing I would say is it's really important to communicate early what it is you and your wife decide you are going to cover and what you're not going to cover, so that if you're a child knows, okay, mom and dad are going to provide x per year toward college, then, you know, he can go out to the schools he's looking at, look at the true cost of attendance, the COA, which is listed on every college's website, and figure out what the gap is and decide where do I want to go to school, and obviously you'll, you know, help to speak into that decision, but I think taking that ownership and knowing if I go here, that money's not going to go as far as it will if I stay in state, perhaps, and really understanding that on the front end, so that's not a surprise as he's heading off to school. So, you know, there's not a one-size-fits-all right answer for everyone, but I think as you think and pray through it, come to that decision and then communicate that well in advance, then you all can formulate a plan together so there's clear and open communication. And I think that well-in-advance concept really is key, Dave. Make sure that you and your wife love him and that he knows you love him, and then don't wait until the final, you know, halfway through his senior year to let him know your plans.

Let him know early, let him know early that you have minimal funds and that you live on a budget and that you want to help, but you can only do so much. And as long as he understands that going in, I think it'll work out for you. I trust it will, and we're glad that you called today. Thank you very, very much. I know that my wife and I were able to help my son, but to be truthful, he graduated with a tiny little bit of debt, but he thanked us multiple times after he graduated that we didn't allow him to get into high amounts of debt like many of his classmates, and it was a real blessing for him.

And it's nice when you hear from your kids that they appreciate what your plans were going in. And Rob, don't have time for another call. How about an email? This one here, I don't have a name on this. It says, Dear Rob and Steve, but I'm going to give this one to you, Rob, just you alone. Do you have any theological concerns?

Hear that? Theological concerns celebrating Christmas, knowing that December 25 is probably not the actual birthday of Jesus. A little outside where we normally tread, but it is a little bit outside. You know, I would just say we growing up with our kids loved a couple of series that were designed around understanding why we do certain things as believers, and one of them dealt with this topic in a really fun way around the date of Christmas. But the bottom line is we're celebrating the birth of Jesus regardless of what day it is and how we ended up on December the 25th.

The date, in my view, Steve, is not as important as the why. Why are we celebrating and what are we celebrating? And we're celebrating the event in all of history that everything hinges on apart from Christ's death and resurrection, which is the birth of our Savior that was prophesied for thousands of years and then ended up coming to pass exactly the way God intended. So no, I don't have any theological hang-ups about the date that we celebrate Christmas. I think it's far more important what it is we're celebrating.

Okay, appreciate that very much and I agree with you. And now let's go back to the college thing and debt and your wife got over a hundred, applied for over a hundred thousand dollars in scholarships. Of course she was very, very smart. You on the other hand, Rob, well you had a river to swim up that wasn't quite as easy. Now I'm hearing, you know, what they say on the street. You had a summer job as a singing waiter. Is that what I understand, Rob?

I have no idea where you came up with that and I'm still trying to figure out the swimming upstream thing. No, no singing waiters in my past. I think you have me confused with someone else. You know, it happens so often. MoneyWise Live is a partnership between Moody Radio and MoneyWise Media. He, that guy there, he's Rob West, not the singing Rob West, the other one. Join us again tomorrow.