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Include Tithe in Emergency Savings?

MoneyWise / Rob West and Steve Moore
The Truth Network Radio
November 9, 2020 7:03 am

Include Tithe in Emergency Savings?

MoneyWise / Rob West and Steve Moore

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November 9, 2020 7:03 am

Few topics generate more discussion among Christians than tithing. And one question we hear often is, “Should I tithe on my net or gross income?” But what about tithing when you have no income? On the next MoneyWise Live, hosts Rob West and Steve Moore weigh in on that question. We’ll explore whether you should include your tithe in your emergency savings on the next MoneyWise Live at 4pm Eastern/3pm Central on Moody Radio.

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Three attendances plainly bring the full time into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house yet surprisingly few topics generate more discussion among Christians than time. People often ask should I tithe on my dad or my Wilson, but what if you have no income advisors Pres. Rob West weighs in on that question today then will have more news about operation Christmas child and it's your calls on anything financial at 800-525-7000 800-525-7000.

I'm Steve Moore it's another addition of moneywise lot Rob. After doing this for nearly 35 years, I thought I'd heard every typing question every typing question but I was wrong. This is a new one to me. That's right, it comes by way of our new moneywise app.

Steve, along with everything you need to manage your finances wisely including our brand-new digital envelope system and by the way, according to biblical principles as well. The free moneywise app includes a community section where you can post your questions and comments yeah and we have app user Mark to thank for our question today. He recently posted this question to the moneywise community which I enjoy reading through it goes like this.

Do you include a tithe in your 3 to 6 month emergency savings if the purpose is to use it. If you lose a job than then you shouldn't need to include the time to correct. I'm not trying to rob the church of my giving, but I want to see what your thoughts are on its I think Mark Steve is getting at the idea that were to tithe on our increase, but if you don't have an increase because you're out of work, then there's no need to include that amount in the total of your emergency savings and that's right, and Mark didn't have too long to wait for help from other folks in the moneywise Avenue community. Chad responded thanks for posting this heart and thought-provoking?

The best place to turn for answers is God's word. Specifically, second Corinthians 97, which says each one must give as he is decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver yeah exactly right.

And I couldn't agree more. Giving is about the heart. We talk about it often. It's not about legalism, Steve Chad went on to say I think it's easier release for me to tithe out of compulsion. When you have the money but the true state of the heart is best seen by what we do when we don't have the money and he referenced the widow's mite in Luke 21 one before I chance and he includes his family's tide in their savings goals because he'd been in the season without income and being able to give to the church then was both joyful and meaningful.

But Chad wasn't alone in responding to Mark's question. App user GDR weighed in with a different view. He writes great? I personally don't feel it's necessary because you already give from the first fruits of your labor.

You should only consider pulling from your 3 to 6 months saving if it's an emergency such as a layoff or the furnace goes out or you're not able to cover it with your house maintenance fund.

Hope you found this helpful surround two different views from Chad and JDR express their which prompted the original poster marks to comment on their comments following along. Here's what he said that you both fit the reason why am thinking through it that we have a vehicle maintenance fund house maintenance fund cash savings were random fixes and breaks that are beyond what I have another savings and then our actual savings that I'm working toward the three months it makes a big difference whether or not I plan to save including the tithe and then Mark added. I know our church is small and would really, it would hurt them if we couldn't tie them an elder and we manage our church finances wisely and I love giving to the church so I'm leaning that way and he went on to say thank you both so Stephen incredible example of how people are engaging in the new moneywise app and specifically in the community section help each other about what folks may not know Rob is that you Sarah keep a pretty close watch on those discussions and you then had a response to Mark's question as well share that with our listeners. Well, I do. Steve and I told him that I love his question because it really shows his desire to give generously to the Lord and faithfully to his church to see if we apply the principle the tide giving from our increase, then we wouldn't necessarily tithe on money coming from savings during a time we have no income. However, author Randy Alcorn talks about the tithe is the training wheels of giving. It's the beginning point not the end.

So I love the idea of Mark saving enough to continue giving to his church, which would be an incredible blessing to the church and a clear demonstration of his dependence on the Lord, even in a difficult time. Okay, that you like to take part in our discussion community.

Just download the free moneywise at will be right back. Many people are experiencing financial challenges such as credit card debt downsizing that in jobs savings. In fact, more than half of all divorces are the result of financial pressures at home, but there's hope in your money counts biblical financial expert Howard shows that the Bible is a veritable for managing your finances will discover the profound relationship with God, your money counts is available when you click the start button moneywise live.org when it comes to investing guidance you want advice, grounded in God's word.

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Whether it's the Apple App Store the Google play store or if you want to just head over to the web@app.moneywise.org you can download it.

It's well our attempt at the very best digital envelope system out there. It's got all the features I've always wanted but this community section is a really great forum of people who want to manage God's money his way and their sharing ideas and best practices, and I jump in there periodically and respond to a many of the questions and comments.

So check it out today and that you can just go to app.moneywise.org okay now will be checking your phone calls on any financial topic. Any financial question in just a few minutes but now's a great time to get in while we have three or four open lines 800-525-7000 800-525-7000 coming up now is a sissy grandma Lynch to talk to us about operation Christmas child. No doubt you've heard about that since he's been with us before she's the daughter of Franklin Graham, granddaughter of Billy Graham and as you might expect. She really grew up in the Samaritan's purse organization, where she served in many roles today.

She was to get a word or two in about this years operation Christmas child was set which is blessed.

Hundreds of thousands if not millions, and my wife and I have been a part of this for decades, Robin. I'm sure you you and your family as well rough well, we sure have every year at something we look forward to during this season and say welcome back to moneywise live and absolutely were thrilled that you're with us for those who enter our listening audience today and is probably not many of them because I think by now everybody sort of operation Christmas child, but perhaps there's a few Sewanee began with a quick explanation. What is Christmas child project really provide God and away the children all around the world and you take a shoebox packet full of toys and wire you we can talk about what you might packet it later, but we can eat right and we deliver them to children all around the world and at best Christmas I think children right now need the message of hope in the G that's more than ever we look at what happened in the world.

We know what happened here in this country that can imagine what it been like her children and other parts of the world absolutely will tell you for such a time as this is an incredible opportunity to be the hands and feet of Jesus by delivering or packing.

One of these incredible shoeboxes and since you want to talk about who gets the shoeboxes and in doing so, I saw a tweet from your dad the other day, Franklin Graham and he was sending a tweet with a video of a young boy who was receiving his box and I watched it like five times disease jumping up and down on the table and he's carrying his box around and he's raising his hands up at him.

He is so excited to receive this gift.

So who gets these boxes and tell us how they respond in a beautiful picture and I've been delivering years all 1993 and over hundred and 28 million shoebox and get around. We work with over hundred and 50 countries different territories around the world and neither children. I mean we know it. Nothing Christmas and when they open up the box and you just describe the perfect picture there's excitement there and all their senses are on overload sand by highly likely had somebody talk about now when they open up their box like a beautiful smile that felt I delivered a lot more where child had no I miraculously kind of like to get this child had no right type open box and miracle everything and how to deal with touch around jingling the battle over and over everything so excited because they've never been given a guess, like acquire and get this get so much more than just couldn't get here. The goal, and a lot of Jesus Christ with every box to get out there and hear about the gospel not a precious moment of it all. Yeah, let's talk about that because that's why you do this at Samaritan's purse is how is the gospel shared 320 shoeboxes each distribution depending on how large every time when we get back to where we are.

The presentation of the gospel and with partners.

You know, we partner with churches all around the world and get them pocketed me.

We partner to quit local churches worldwide. Because we really want to strengthen the church and so we partner them and they all share the story and 11 children that received the box have the opportunity to go through our 12 lack in discipleship course to follow the greatest journey. Now our children that if any school me to come to church on Sunday there when they never had the opportunity to get to it and learn about the G that we follow up begin the box and opened the opportunity to continue to live on the children to live on their family love that and I love you work through the local churches. This was a hallmark of your grandfather's ministry. Billy Graham is working with crusades through the local church and now Samaritan's purse of coursework into the local church so that when Christmas is coming gone in Samaritan's purse is in another part of the world doing God's work, the churches there and can minister to the needs of the people all year long parts of somebody saying yeah I'm in. I want to use God's money to pack at least one shoebox may be many shoeboxes where they go to get more information and when is the nationwide collection week and believe it or not, the 23rd national collection week here with people might not want to go shopping, they might not want to get a local door. You can even build your shoebox online. You can check it out. Samaritan's purse.org/EC on the first network you'll be able to navigate and operation child. I you can build it online. I was testing it out: I had a QR code out there.

I found out there so easy to build a shoebox get our website at work.

All right, you can build your own shoe box online if you don't want to go out and go shopping and then now you can also find one of these drop-off locations. If you do in fact want to build your own box by going out and collecting the items yourself and believe there's thousands of locations nationwide is in the right 4000 locations nationwide offering a curbside drop-off this year due to coded and once again, not collection week November 18 through the 23rd and you can find a drop off locator online to find out what your how it's great to see your mom you got kids yourself.

I'd love for you to share from your perspective, how you've involved the whole family in this this project previously packing box result being a mom and a whole new goal of important to me that my may have so much fun we can to make it a big event to go to the store and then come home at night and packet together last year at packing it where Russian hurry getting right up the car, my little girl stop mom you forgot to pray for your box. You are so right. My kid get a wonderful opportunity to talk about with your kid be important out power in the miracle. Each black hat that the power of your prayers, your prayers over each doctor so important.

My children get much fun in college student, I delivered box and we had a whole box of the report from college football team that box that I love it I love even in this grandparent to do it at projects for everybody at every age, no matter what stage of life care act.

You can pack up to one box where you can do many of your family can Dale. But it's fun for everybody. I love it. Will talk every day on this program about how we can use God's money to reflect God's heart.

We don't want to be a bucket were God's provision stops with us. We want to be a pipeline the conduit into God's activity and I can't think of a better way to be a conduit into God's activity with your resources than to participate in operation Christmas Child sissy. We so appreciate you stopping by ensuring this with us today. Thank you for having me hard to believe right around the corner.

Thank you everybody for packing boxes again its operation Christmas child is given over 178 million shoeboxes going all the way back to the very beginning, which was 1993. You can be a part of that. Just check them out online Samaritan's purse.org/hose Samaritan's purse.org/oh what brought this sending a shoebox. She was in it schmooze out some stuff will be right back with more this is moneywise.

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Anything you have a concern about her question. The conundrum way something that stumped you when it comes to money and finances of the Bible.

Let's kick that around little bit if you don't mind give us a call open lines available at 800-525-7000 800-525-7000 this week and Robbie going to Miami Alberts what you question for Rob West server for the feedback. I thought your feeling on on churches that are considered mega churches and some that day they required their staff mandatory tie as well as mandatory offerings, especially when I believe that the Bible teaches that you get from the heart being mandatory house. I go with the heart. Also, like pulled from the fact of being able to order to know.

All about the boxes or offering or some sort of other event that might be happening anywhere you like to share with with staff members. Your whole getting your told people about the church is already expecting or offering to be handled first yeah yeah well obviously this is something that you really need to pray through his leadership as to how you might approach this me clearly when it comes to somebody who's not in on staff and not in leadership even lay leadership. I think clearly that needs to be a decision that they make you look at second Corinthians 97 on this each of you should give what you have decided in your heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver, so clearly God wants her heart to follow our money and one of the ways we do that is by giving joyfully and freely on her own volition between us and the Lord really navigating that together and making a purposeful decision on that as opposed to being mandated or anything that's legalistic. I do think it becomes slightly different, though we talk about to somebody was a staff person or going in the way leadership I know many churches will look not necessarily at whether or not there meeting a minimum of 10%, but they will look as a prerequisite for leadership is their's systematic giving is this person a giver and are they doing it systematically and proportionately. Now I wouldn't say that that should go to the level of asking for proof that they're hitting a certain threshold because I think there certainly should be. Each person should decide what they want to give but I think this idea that we need to go first and model what is clearly on the heart of God that we should be regular and faithful systematic givers giving proportionately.

Jesus was very clear about that. That could be a prerequisite for both somebody who is supportive staff of the church or somebody who is trying to meet the qualifications to serve in lay leadership and I think that's often.now they didn't need to be very careful about that in terms of who knows what those numbers are in. Does the senior pastor. No one is there somebody who's trying to ascertain whether it's actually a minimum percentage and I think we can go too far with that, but as to a bar being set for staff person or lay leadership that there would be a requirement that there be systematic giving. I think that would be appropriate, but again it's a fine line and I think we need to be very careful not to trip over into legalism on this, especially when it comes to somebody who's just a church member and not necessarily in a leadership position at the end of the day Albert I would just be very clear to say God wants our heart. He doesn't need our money and yet is an overflow of our thanksgiving for what he's done for us, most notably on the cross with his son, who gave the ultimate price as a substitution for our sin, to reconcile us to him we should be givers. It's just a natural expression of our thankfulness, but it's a great question, today, and I appreciate your Rob what if you are a member of this particular church. I'm sure there's more than one in the United States somewhere if your member of the church and you don't agree with what's going on, what's the biblical and respectful way for bringing bringing an issue like this up. Well, I think that whenever we have an issue with anything or question. Perhaps there's a lack of understanding as to why decisions are being made, whether it's something that's being taught from the pulpit or something else I think is a very appropriate ways not to cast dispersion among the body not to talk about it with those in the church but to seek out leadership in a conversation to invite feedback to raise questions to hear from the pastor or others in leadership why things are being done why decisions are being made at the end of the day you have to decide whether that is going to be a church home and then I think if you do you come under the leadership of the best and so with those parameters in mind.

Might this be the right time for us to discuss my dressing room and for my part know I for some reason I just how should we as Christians think about investing. What if we could invest our money in a way that aligns with what we believe that Eventide we believe it is possible to love God and love our neighbor in the very practice of investing we design investments for performance and better world so you can invest for the future with a sense of wholeness and purpose. We call this investing makes the world rejoice. More information is available@investeventide.com Christian healthcare ministries enables believers to meet their healthcare costs affordably, biblically and compassionately.

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Do you know if you have enough money of house. Do you know how much is enough. If not, one blue can help book mastering your money a step-by-step plan for experiencing financial contentment and how to save, invest, and give wisely create a long-term financial plan and how to get out of debt. Find it all. Mastering your money by Ron blue available when you click the start button moneywise live resident Ropers bar Defense Secretary Mark Esper as per the president second Defense Secretary succeeding Jim out as he resigned in 2018. Christopher Miller, the director of the National counterterrorism Center will serve as acting secretary secretary Ben Carson is tested positive for the coronavirus person. The first member of Pres. Brown's cabinet known to have tested positive Pfizer may be the first to develop a covert, 19 vaccine early data suggesting its vaccine maybe 90% effective.

The University of Notre Dame is implemented mandatory coronavirus testing for students and strict penalties for those who don't comply is after students rush the school's football field to celebrate a double-overtime upset of Clemson over the weekend and mix today that I'll gain 834 points. The NASDAQ lost 181. This is SRN use three and give all my possessions and if I delivered my body to be burned but I do not have love, it profits me nothing. Cleveland, Ohio. Charlene, thanks so much for your patience and what's in your mind. Now all the home that are currently living in to family and I wanted to go to some programs to get some work done, but they tell me think is one partial have to get their consent neighbor so we get into the program together and I wanted to know if there anything else I can do besides lack yeah interesting. Charlene is this a duplex no-no up and down okay and you're trying to go into a program to meet a little bit more on the program is called a heritage house heritage home program where they come in and do some repairs and you can take out a low interest loan, but since it not a duplex.

Have to get the consent of my name. Yes I see you had a conversation with your neighbor about this yet. What we haven't come together and talk about it because hers is different.

You know that there come downstairs. She then stared sure I don't know what you well. I think the key here is an and I don't know specifically as to this, the rules and regulations. On this particular program and I can understand and appreciate that this may be true. In fact, you would need the neighbors signature.

I think the key would be twofold. Number one is whether or not this neighbor is taking on any liability or in any way going to have some responsibility toward what you're you're taking on here in the way of borrowing clearly that's good to be of interest, and if not that that's made aware and then secondly I think what might be in the neighbors benefit here is that these improvements perhaps may increase the property value, which would have a benefit to both parties. You and your neighbor. And I think if your neighbor understands that what what am I going to incur as a result of this if anything in probably nothing and make that plane and then secondly, what's the overall benefit to the property itself that your neighbor could benefit from upon resale. So I think it's going to need to involve you making sure your real clear on exactly what's required in terms of the neighbor signing off on it. What they're attesting to so you can explain that and then thirdly just in good faith, making it clear that you believe there are benefits assuming you do to both of you. As a result of you doing this so I probably get that information. If you don't have it all in writing and then explore that in and see if you can invite the neighbor to the conversation where you can explore this together and make sure you ask the Lord for some wisdom before you go into that conversation may take a little bit of time Charlene we wish you the best with that. That's a that's a hard one is a possibility that 1/3 party actually owns the building owns the house so you got three families dealing with its good question. I'm just not sure enough about the situation and the particular program she's talking about, but I could certainly understand that if they were going to go in and offer this kind of assistance through this program that would require both owners to sign off on it and it's always going to come down to what are they actually agreeing to hopefully the confluence common ground. Charlene perhaps the people that run the program have run into this before, and perhaps they be willing to sit down with the two of you you in your your upstairs neighbor to talk through the pros and cons and that might help you and that they would be somewhat of an objective third party.

We wish you the best with that.

Thanks, Chicago, Illinois Sharon, how can we help you know a lot banking where you pay down your mortgage by taking out credit or and comfortable with 10,000 and 15,000 and now applying it to the principal and then your paycheck will go directly into the line of credit you will pay all of you do that, maybe five months out along that it takes you to pay out that he's not likely to continue until your mortgage is paid off, happy as I am familiar with the program exactly did the whole program on this lease and opening segment on it recently. You might want to go to our website moneywise live.org and look for that it was in the last two weeks and you can get a bit more information. Bottom line is that this is not a scam, and there's some legitimacy to the math. The problem is it's very complicated which is why most of these subprograms involve you buying the software program to help you manage it.

That's how complicated is you. You have to have software to do it and to even start. You really have to have a very healthy cash flow lots of discretionary income left over at the end of the month for it to work most effectively. You gotta be very good at staying on budget or you'll end up just borrowing even more and racking up more interest in typically your you don't end up paying an extra 20,000 a year on on your mortgage which means you're committed to do that have to have the cash flow to do that as well.

Of course you know if plans change and also you have a drop in income or an increase in expense.

Another child decided to start a business.

Large medical bills you can set the strategy back by years because you no longer have the same scenario in terms of the income is being committed to it so you know, for me, I advise against it, not because again it's a scam of any kind.

But just because it's complicated and I'd rather you not spend the upfront money to buy into the system or the software package. I'd rather you just stay focused on keeping your expenses dialed in having plenty of margin and once your emergency savings is funded once your giving systematically once you got 10 to 15% going to retirement than any extra can be used, to accelerate the conventional mortgage. By perhaps sending one extra payment a year or maybe 1/12 of your payment. In addition to your payment every month. Something like that.

I think that's just gonna be a little more understandable little simpler and you'll still accelerate your mortgage by five years or more of a 30 year mortgage doing chair thank you very much that's a quickly moved to Fort Lauderdale and lean your own with Rob West.

All natural timber yes all my next five main now we have nothing on you and lean you know I think you're in good health even at 65, you could replace this policy that's lapsed with the new policy perhaps 10 years would be good term insurance. Another term policies can be the most cost-effective way to do that. In fact, it's good to be probably less expensive than burial insurance, you'd only need a small policy. I think the key is you gotta define why are we getting the insurance. What's the purpose of it is purely just for burial expenses on you and your husband, or is there some other purpose. Remember, we need to be saving throughout her working here so that you no longer have a need for insurance when you get to retirement. So I look at getting a policy that aligns with one, you might no longer be working perhaps to the point where you're going to live off Social Security and any savings you have, but a new term policy of 10 maybe 20 years is the most cost-effective way to do that labor that were going to have to let you know we have to hit a break here. We appreciate your call today will be right back.

The financial wealth you leave behind could be the best thing that ever happened to your loved ones or the worst, and splitting hairs, giving your money and things to your children without ruining their lives. Ron blue explains why it's important to make these decisions now, instead of forcing your heirs to do it later. Splitting hairs will foster a real appreciation for the precious resources that God has entrusted to you, and it's available.

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We would certainly be blessed moneywise live.OR GR a Chicago, Illinois hello Shannon, how can we help you today. So here Romans 13 80. No man anything to love one another. So my question I have been carrying 30,000 right now for years and I'm just tired of the pertinent nonbelief in God. Even though I locked my hotel job and I got to the mall or store card that are under 1500 115 1202.larger card.

One large a contest. I keep my money and a part-time job that I had and I'm thinking so I think that 3002 small or give me a rundown of the numbers. Shannon and Percival. I'm really sorry to hear about you losing your job.

I know the hospitality industry has really gotten hurt and in the midst of the pandemic and just encourage you, God is your provider and clear it's it's clear just by having your question you want to honor the Lord in managing his money and I'm confident that he will provide for you doesn't mean is not can be a difficult season.

It doesn't mean that the church body friends and family may need to rally around you during the season. That's what we are called to do, but at the end of the day, God is your provider. He will not abdicate that responsibility to anyone else, but I appreciate your desire to be found faithful here.

Did you say you have the 30,000 and dad and if so, give it a quick breakdown on credit cards versus other types of debt, so about 1201 major car about 200 and any other major car about 26,000 okay.

All right.

And you're paying the minimums on all those right now the current right and I might write before the condemning kit and now I feel I do feel like the black you heart one major car went down from 200 March, 180 encourage my God like me, you like to know why now tell me what you have in savings right now. What's the total of your saving about 10,000. Okay, about 10,000. And so that's the extent of your savings right now and what income are you living on unemployment and not job okay alright and you're obviously looking for work and trying to get that in, but in the meantime, with what you're collecting insults and unemployment and the work that you can find at least month-to-month to this point you've been able to cover your living expenses plus the minimums on these cards. Are you going further into debt. Now I'm not going to have a wonderful report of family, you know, it's great, well you apart from you just really having a conviction in your time with the Lord on paying off one of these I'd be real hesitant in your current situation Shannon to take this 10,000 and put a lump sum against any one of these cards just because right now we need to try to preserve cash until you get to the other side of this unemployment situation. If you can find steady work and you got some extra money. And you know you say you want to take six months of emergency savings down to three months and try to knock out a couple of these cards think that would be a good thing. But right now while you have limited income might be hesitant to do that. The other thing is I would reach out to our friends.

As a next step. If you haven't already done something like this that Christian credit counselors, debt management program could be a great alternative for you.

It may or Nate may not work, just given the employment situation, but if it does, getting on a regular monthly payment that fits into your budget. Probably no more than you're sending currently but with the interest rates dramatically reduced. You can pay this off in credit counseling 80% faster with a fixed monthly payment and you'll know you're making real progress every month as opposed to majority of what you're sending going to interest so I would start there there to pray with you Shannon there to evaluate your situation. Get a listing of all your creditors help you understand how much the interest rates will come down and what that monthly payment would be and I think you'll be really encouraged.

If you have questions when you're done, you give us a call back but it's Christian credit counselors.org.

I would start their first before you make any lump sum payments and Shannon your call to us is encouraging today to hear how God is working.

Obviously, we'd all like to see God work a little bit quicker than what he does sometimes but that's where the faith component comes in. So you keep us posted and let us know how God works. As you work through the rest of this debt and he helps you find your next full-time job were glad that you called today. Thanks very much helping you understand and establish God's plan for your finances. We can help you do that today. Give us a call. We have a couple of open lines call right now get in 800-525-7000 Fort Lauderdale and Michael. We know you been holding a bit. We appreciate that and what's in your mind all share. I congratulate congratulate everyone on our new president and the White House and my question is, people don't trust churches because they see pastors widget and mansions and million understand that the Bible promises abundance which applies to pastors as well, but that people over judge the situation. What pastors that didn't give a number of charities and the pastors are giving charities in following Jesus teachings or do you think that they should be of more modest life because people like Franklin Graham and Jerry follow Joe in your Michael I appreciate your question. You let me weigh in on that.

Here's my thought, you know, number one, you look across this country. Most churches are very small. Most pastors are often underpaid. Just because the churches have limited resources and they're trying to keep the lights on hire enough staff to be able to serve and meet the needs of the body and yelled were seeing often pastors who can afford to put anything away for retirement or churches that are able to help doing any matching because so many of them are dramatically underpaid and clearly in God's word. We are to give to the local church that's God's plan a and we should be compensating appropriately to the ability of the church are pastors for this work that they do. Clearly, we see that in the in the New Testament.

Obviously, if there are some examples of people who were living incredibly lavish lifestyles or or highly compensated. I mean, I think those would certainly be the outliers.

We look across the church landscape somebody was been a part of a finance committee for many years.

Multiple churches know there's a process for how you appropriately determine the compensation of the pastor and it has to do with salary surveys and experience in the number of people in the church and the level of responsibility and you've got an answer to the IRS as to what's appropriate and customary for those salaries and I think that's the job of the church leadership to do that appropriately. As that compensation package is set and that needs to be transparent to the body. Now as to how the pastor who takes that appropriate compensation uses that in terms of the decisions that are made with regard to lifestyle.

I think that's between the pastor and the Lord each of us is going to give an account right as we how we handle God's money. What are we doing with it are we living a life that is a testimony to the world of generosity and holding God's money loosely and I think with that living modestly, absolutely. I think that's clear in Scripture, but as to how somebody divides that for their own home and answers the question what can house Mica live and work in the car my going to drive how much am I going to give much of my going to say what is my financial finish line. I think we all need to be on our knees before the Lord answering that question, but again, I would say the vast majority of the people in full-time ministry were all full-time ministers right but those in churches on leadership teams, pastors and executive pastors and the youth pastor's and education pastors. In many cases, if not the vast majority of cases that they are being paid and I would say many cases under what I would hope they would be paid just because the church resources are limited, so you bring up a good point that we all need to be asking what's an appropriate lifestyle, but I think clearly we see a mandate in Scripture to pay our pastors appropriate compensation levels. Michael were glad that you called today. Interesting subject obviously one that we've talked about many many many times in the past and you don't think it's inappropriate again for members of the church were the ones that actually pay the pastor to ask if if they if they see something in the church financially. That doesn't seem to ring true is nothing wrong with asking in a respectful way.

Why are we doing this. Who makes these decisions.

How can I have submit some input things like that right of the pastor is not above anyone else in the church when it comes to these things clearly. Steve and I think transparency needs to be really clear in terms of making plane to the congregation.

The budget and what's being done with the resources at an appropriate level of granularity. Of course, but there needs to be transparency with God's money moneywise live. This program is a partnership between Moody radio and moneywise media. Thanks for listening.

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