Matt Slick Live

Another program powered by the Truth Network. If you want to give me a call, we're actually live. It's January 15, 2025. If you want to call me, you can, and I'll explain a little bit of why we're off the air there a little bit. We had, let's just say, some major technical glitches, let's just say, at the radio station and some other stuff going on, and that's it. So, we are live right now, if you want to give me a call on this January 15, 2025. And I'm welcome to take your calls. All right, let me see, let me check a couple of things here really fast, because I've got a lot going on. And, okay, let's see, let's see, I'm going to give this a, whoops, hold on, I'm typing in a phone number.

Okay. All right, and hopefully, that's some good stuff going on. So, actually, I was just texting the owner of the radio station network, and I said, do you want to call in and explain what's going on? And so, he's going to do that.

He just said he was. So, and that's no big deal, because, you know, it's worth talking about. But, hey, look, if you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276. And if you are so inclined and you don't want to really call or you don't have the ability to or whatever reason, and you'd still like a comment or a question asked and maybe answered, all you have to do is direct an email to info at karm.org, info at karmcarm.org. And, okay, that sounds good. All right, and so karm.org, I'm sorry, there's a lot going on behind the scenes here. So, karm.org forward slash, let me start over. Yeah, I'm distracted. Send me an email to mad at, oh, man, info at karm.org.

Whoa, okay, sorry about that, folks. And put in the subject line radio comment or radio question, and we can get to those on the air. And also, we're doing something new, so, and it's not going live yet. How come it's not going live? It should be going live. It's not going live? Well, it seems like it is.

If you could troubleshoot that and tell me what to do, maybe during the break we can figure that out, because it looks like it's live to me, but it looks like it is. So, there you go. All right. Oh, it's good? All right.

Yeah, we got a lot of stuff going on. There's just a, oh, yes, I did. I did make two rumbles because it was weird. It was just a glitch, and I went, did it work? Did it not? I couldn't find it. I did another one.

I guess that's why. And sorry about that. So, yeah, there's a lot just, there's a lot going on. And, and, there's a lot of other stuff going on. Not only is there the CARM radio and stuff like that issues, there is a whole other slew of things, all good, that we are working behind the scenes on the CARM intergalactic empire. There's a lot going on there.

And also, here's something to think about, just an FYI. People challenge me to debates. They challenge me, you know, I want to debate you on this or that. And because the last few have been such poor debates, the people who want to debate me, they're out of control, rude, interruptive, muting me while I'm answering questions.

It's just bad behavior. What we're going to be doing is not having any debates until we've got this system worked out where they're going to, anybody who wants to debate me has got to sign a document, an agreement, that certain things will happen certain ways. It's not that I'm trying to restrict them.

It's just you can't be insulting. We have to have a moderator. Here's the agreed upon topic.

You've got to provide definitions for the terms and the topic, just things like this. And we're going to be working on that and some other things related to that. We've got some other ideas, too. We've got some big ideas.

So a lot of good stuff's happening, actually. But, man, I'll tell you. I'm telling you, you know, I think I'm pretty good at reading, writing arithmetic and theology. And I can't even write because behind the scenes all I'm doing is tech stuff.

And, I mean, just so much. And now, I think I mentioned it before, and we're still looking into this, we are talking about hiring somebody full-time as an operations director or coordinator, something like that. So that's what we're hoping to be able to do. And we're working out the job description. And so if you're interested in something like that, you can contact us at info at karm.org. But I've got to tell you, the position is more like somebody who has some expertise in the ability to keep track of projects, make calls, expand the radio show, learn how to monetize Twitter, YouTube, learn how to, or already know, how to work with the people that we're already working with and volunteers, how to set up possible seminars, speaking engagements, and some other things. And so even if you don't know how to do all that stuff, if you have, you know, an expertise in a lot of areas that are similar and you're smart enough to figure it out, that's what we want. We want someone smart enough to figure it out, which means I wouldn't be eligible to do my own job that I'm asking for.

So we want someone who's smart who could do that, and we're looking for that kind of a thing. And we're working through other particulars, and I'm in contact with some people about this. So there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. So, yeah, I think I do have two rumble accounts. My apologies for that. Let's see if I can get another something going here.

I've got that already going, don't I? And there's a lot, like I said, just happening. And we were out yesterday and the day before. Yeah, there's two. Oh, there's two rumbles. Maybe you can cancel one of them. They can do that, you know. Why'd you do that?

I don't know. So, yeah, there was a glitch. And I was trying to do three things at once.

Usually I can do two things at once, but not three. All right, having said all of that, 8772072276. So this morning I did something interesting.

I have a friend, Alex, lives in Florida, this wonderful state of Florida. And he has contacts in different parts of the world, and he asked me to do a teaching on the Trinity this morning to some Pakistani pastors. And so I did that. We went for two hours. I connected and interrelated the Trinity, the person and work of Christ, and salvation.

And I wove through all of them for two hours and did that. And I hope that they benefited from that. So that was a lot of fun. So I was able to do that and show them a lot of scriptures.

And I had to speak a little bit on the slow side because, you know, English is our second language. And there's a lot of concepts that I could get into more deeply, but you have to know a bit of vocabulary. So I had to kind of not talk about them too deeply, but just deep enough to expand on that, and that was enjoyable. I've also been doing impromptu discussions and debates with the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, still been doing that. And they don't like what I say.

I'm going to say it again, that the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church both preach a false gospel, have a false priesthood, and a false Mary. And these are the things I've been discussing a lot lately. And I enjoy these kind of discussions, particularly when they're polite. Now, I know that it upsets a lot of people. Oh, and you've got to get this. So two or three nights ago, I was doing this very thing, a very polite conversation with people who think I'm wrong.

And a Catholic, for example, a Catholic guy, nice guy. And he was giving, you know, I would say something, he'd say something, and they were going back and forth, and he would give an answer and give an answer. You know, it was a good discussion, really it was a good discussion. And right when I'm giving the gospel, all of a sudden, this has happened so many times. Okay, I say, here's the gospel message. This is what it is, folks.

This is what you need to be saved. All of a sudden, someone will come into the room and scream and yell and be foul, I mean, within five seconds, maybe ten at the most. It is strange. It happens. It's happened several times. In fact, people in the room noticed it and had comments and said, Matt, each time you try and give the gospel, something like this happens. I go, I know.

It's just strange, but that's the kind of thing that does happen. So giving the gospel out and hopefully by God's grace, he will call people and they will come to faith in the true and living Christ, the true gospel, the true priesthood, the priesthood of all believers, and the true Mary, not the one who's a functioning goddess that you can pray to and hears millions of prayers all over the world simultaneously spoken in thought in different languages, knows the intention of your heart, and she can answer them. It's just ridiculous that she's a functioning goddess, and we don't want to do that. We don't want to have that kind of idolatrous stuff that they're doing.

I call them. I say it's idolatry. They go, no, it's not idolatry. Oh, yes, it is. And then they say, no, it's not idolatry. It is, what's the word?

Not reference. They use the word, you know, I've said it 100 times too, respect. There's another word for it.

Darn, maybe someone in the chat there can give me the word. I've said it 100 times. This is one of those brain glitches. It's not called worship. It's called adoration, adoration. We're adoring her.

We're not worshiping her. Here's an illustration. I said, there's a guy in a gym, and he goes out and he benches 250 pounds on bench press. Okay, he does it, you know, 10 reps. Then he does, you know, he does a bunch of military presses. He does some, it's a bad, he shouldn't work all these muscles in one day, but anyway. And then he does lats, and then he does abs, and he does glutes, and he does hamstrings. He does quads, calves, all this stuff, forearms.

He does, he does a full-blown workout. And someone said, man, it's a good workout you had. He said, it wasn't a workout, it's exercise.

What? That's exactly what a workout is. Well, no, no, it's not a workout.

It's exercise, even though it's the same thing. And so it's like saying, no, they don't worship Mary. They adore her, even though worship of God and praying to her, I mean, praying to God, worshiping God, adoring God, all of this is the same thing. But they say, no, it's just adoration. It's not worship. That's only for God. Even though we pray to God and Mary the same, even though we expect both of them to answer the same questions and the same answers, it's not worship.

It's adoration. So it's like a guy going in the gym, working out for two hours. I wasn't working out. I was exercising. But that's what a workout is. No, it's different, because I was only exercising. I was intending to worship, workout. I was only intending to exercise. Ah, okay, I'll back away from you and get away from you.

Obviously, the oxygen in that area of the room isn't very good. All right, let's get to Jermaine from California. Jermaine, welcome. You're on the air.

Oh, hi, Matt. Yeah, I just wanted to ask about the great mystery mentioned in the New Testament in various places, especially Thessalonians. I think I actually told your screen of revelation, but I was more referring to Thessalonians. I have a friend who's really, like, really heavy into dispensationalism, and we have friendly talks, but he seems to have that great mystery. He takes the theology that it's the secret rapture, and that's all we should be preaching about, and of course, I differ with him. So I just wanted to kind of hear you kind of develop that a little bit, because I know a lot of these people who take this almost like a hyper dispensationalist view, they have one view of Scripture, and that's it, and that's rightly dividing the word of truth according to how they see things, and I just don't see it that way. So maybe you can develop some thought on that. Well, okay, we've got a break coming up.

We're talking about Revelation 17, 5, a great mystery, and I think also it's 2 Thessalonians 2, so let me kind of look at those, and we'll get back after the break. Okay, brother? Hey, folks, if you want, hold on, and we'll be right back after these messages, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, everybody, welcome back to the show. Let's get back on the air with, let's see, Jermaine.

Jermaine, welcome, you're on the air, buddy. All right. Okay, so I'm a little confused because I looked around the break, and the word mystery was used, and it occurs in different places in the Bible, but in 2 Thessalonians, there's a hint of something there, but the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. So, and then Revelation, and Revelation, basically 10 and 17, so there's different ones. So, which one is, which verse or verses is he focusing on about this mystery? What do you think it is?

So I can look at it. You know, actually, I got it wrong. It was actually 1 Timothy 3.16.

I'm sorry about that. That's the great mystery that he's referring to. 1 Timothy 3.16. Okay.

Okay. But by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness. He was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed by the nations, believed in the world, taken up in glory. The mystery. The Greek word is, incidentally, musterion.

Musterion. So, and also Ephesians 5.32 is like a text, just wherever the word mystery is, but especially the word mystery seems to be referring to the rapture. Ah.

Okay. Well, it says this in Ephesians 5.32, and I'll go to verse 29. For no one has hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of his body.

For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. The mystery is great, but I'm speaking with reference to Christ and his church. That has nothing to do with the rapture in Ephesians 5.32.

What other verse was he looking at? Yeah, just, I think the next one will probably be maybe Matthew 13.11, but that says the mystery is in the kingdom of heaven. It seems like mystery is always some sort of secret revelation only given to the church in this age according to how they view things, and it's really kind of trying to, I want to say argue in a circle, but it seems like they have one particular view, and that's it. Like there's no, every other view is not correct according to them.

This is what you do. When you meet people like this and they make a statement, and they might say a statement, for example, the mystery is dealing with the rapture. It's pre-tribulation rapture. Let's say someone says that. You say, well, can you show me a verse, not 50 all at once, one at a time. I'd like to look at one verse at a time and to see what you want to say about that if it says that. I say, you do, because a lot of times you don't know what they're getting at, and I see a verbal carpet bombing sometimes. People will say, well, pre-trib rapture is true because, and then they just throw out 40 verses, and really fast you go, excuse me, but that does nothing other than just lay down a bunch of verses out of context. Let's take a look at them.

Let's go look. When I do that, their view just dismantles itself, generally speaking, because a lot of times they're reading into the text, and I say, well, let's look at the context. Here's an example of something, tradition. I was talking to a Roman Catholic recently, and this is a brief example of something. He says tradition, you're supposed to follow tradition, and tradition of the church is true. I said, where does it say that in the Bible?

They said, this person says 2 Thessalonians 2, 15, where it says, stand firm and hold the traditions which you were taught. I said, see, there you go. I said, let's look at the context. In this case, you've got to read the whole chapter. Again, the tradition he's talking about is the return of Christ and the arrival of the Antichrist. That's what he's talking about, specifically.

It's not about everything that the church might do in all traditions. It's just a simple, illustrating point that when you read the context of something, a lot of times what they say just goes away. Make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. I'll get with him, and I'll get back to you, and then I'll let you know how things work. Okay, and if that doesn't work, I assume you're a big guy. Just get him in a headlock, okay? Just cut off the oxygen of the brain a little bit until he passes out, then whisper in his ear, you know, it's not true, until he wakes up. There's different techniques. I'll do it in love, because we do like each other. You've got to do it in love.

Get him in a headlock. A friend of mine, Charlie, used to call it shrimping. I remember that one back in the day, Charlie. Shrimping, when a big guy would take a small guy, he's a shrimp, I don't know what the word was, and then do something to him. I'm like, there you go. You know, it's just called shrimping.

So, I don't know, man. Charlie's looking at me. I've seen him. I remember that. You told me that, Charlie, like 40 years ago. So, I remember that. I never forgot that term.

So, he's chuckling. All right, buddy? All right, thanks a lot, man. I appreciate you. All right, man.

Thanks a lot. All right. Now, let's get on with Kit from Arizona. Kit, welcome. You're on the air, buddy.

Hey, I got a couple of questions, but I'll go with the easy one first because I don't know how much time you got. Okay. How do you refute full preterists? I got this.

A friend of mine keeps bringing it to me. I hope he's listening. Well, to me, it's terrifyingly easy because I would have them agree to what full preterism teaches, that Jesus returned in the armies of Jerusalem to destroy Jerusalem. That's what they're going to say, right? They'll say, yeah.

I say, okay. Let's go to Acts 1, 9 through 11. I've done this many times with full preterists. After he had said these things, as Jesus said some stuff to the disciples, he was lifted up while they're looking on and a cloud received them out of their sight.

I asked the preterists, I say, looked it up. Was that into the air, into the sky where the cloud received them out of their sight? They've always said, yes.

Okay, good. As they were gazing intently into the sky while he was going on, two men stood beside them. They're looking up where the clouds are in the sky.

Is that correct? They'll say, well, yes. Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?

This is the NASB. This Jesus who's been taken from you into heaven will come in just the same way you've watched him go into heaven. So I said, that's how he's coming back, not in the armies of Jerusalem, because that's the prophecy out of the sky. And that's how you refute them. Now, proof is different than persuasion.

That's proof that full preterism is wrong. What they'll do then, I'm sure you're kind of familiar with this because you know slouch with scripture, is they will start saying, well, you see the sky represents this and the cloud represents that, and then they started inserting stuff from all over the place. And then I'd go back to the text and I read it again.

Well, it says sky with the clouds on it. That's where he was. That's how I begin. And I go to another place after that.

But any comments or you want to go on? I can show you what else I do with it. Well, that's funny because that's the same answer I gave him. I said, I don't know if they're saying Jesus returned invisibly or what the deal is, but he went out physically in a cloud.

People saw it. That's exactly what I said to him. But he said, I want the Matt answer and I said, well, call Matt Slick live. And he hasn't done that yet. So hopefully he's listening today. Well, hopefully.

Well, let me just add a little bit more into this before the break. This is 1 Thessalonians 4, 15. By this we say to you, by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep, for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout. Descending from heaven. He went into heaven.

He's going to come back, descending from heaven. Oh, there's the break. So hold on. I'll start this over again at the end of the break.

After the break. We can get into that. Okay. So hold on, buddy. Hey folks, be right back. After these messages, you can give me a call. 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Welcome back to the show, everybody. If you want to give me a call, the number is 877-207-2276.

You can also email me info at karm.org, info at K-A-R-M dot O-R-G, putting the subject line radio comment radio question. Let's get back on with Kit. Are you still there, buddy? I am, yeah. All right.

So there's a couple other things I throw out at people when I'm talking about this. With a listen, and as I was saying, go to 1 Thessalonians 4, you can start at verse 16. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout. Now, this talks about the single coming of the Lord.

That's verse 15. We'll hear live and remain until the coming of the Lord, the return of Christ. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout. That's just like it says in Acts 1 9-11, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God, the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together to meet them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. In the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So the return of Christ, the one return of Christ, is specified that we are going to meet him in the air, in the clouds. Now what they'll do is say, this is really ridiculous, sorry about this, they say the clouds are like a cloud of witnesses, and they just, they go someplace else, take the word cloud in a different context and transfer the meaning over to here.

It's called illegitimate totality transfer. It means that you take a word that has lots of meanings, and you take one of those meanings and move it around where you want it to be to get the text to say what you want it to say. For example, when I talk to the Catholics, Matthew 1.25, he kept her virgin until Jesus was born. Well, obviously the context tells you exactly what's going on there, until Jesus was born. But they'll say, well the word until over here in this place can mean continuing on, and it does in some other places. So therefore that's what it means here. And they do this kind of a thing.

And so it's illegitimate, they shouldn't do that, you read something from what it says. So that's one of the things I'll do, is go to Acts 1.9-11, and then 1 Thessalonians 4.15-17. Often sometimes we'll help them out a little bit, which doesn't help them out, I'll go to Matthew 24.29-31. But immediately after the tribulation of those days, and folks who are pre-tribulation rapture, check this out. But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And they'll say those words are used in the Old Testament in various forms of judgment in the Old Testament context. Judgment and mighty things happening.

I'll say, yeah, that's true. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, in the sky. And then all the tribes and the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And then what they'll often do is say, well, it doesn't mean he's literally on the clouds.

It means that they've already got there in 70 AD, and this is just a phrase talking about his great power. But it says coming on the clouds, which is fulfilling how Jesus is coming out of the clouds in Acts 1, 9-11. Then it says, and he will send forth his angel with a great trumpet and they will gather his elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other. So obviously this is talking about Jesus returning, the clouds, the sky are mentioned. Just as 1 Thessalonians 4, 15-17 talks about Jesus returning in the clouds and Acts 1, 9-11 talks about him returning in the clouds.

These are the three areas I'll go through with the full Preterist and I'll just repeat it just as a cycle, you know, a trinity of pericopes and say, well, this is what it says. But now you're just adding in cloud means this over there and witnessing over there means something. So you're putting it over into this text to make it say what you want and I can call him on the carpet on it. It makes sense?

Yeah, it makes sense. That's what I talked to him about and I talked to him about the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses say he came back invisibly, even though the Bible says everybody will see him and all of that. We're talking about, I don't think he would mind me saying it, we're talking about Miles.

He's an atheist and he's been going to Discord servers that are full of full Preterists and he asked me how to deal with it and then when I told him, he said he wants a Matt Slick answer and I said, call him up. Yeah, Miles. He actually takes questions.

Yeah, Miles is a good guy. So I've got another question if you've got time. Sure. Do you have time?

Sure, go ahead. I've been reading Jeremiah and in Jeremiah 45, God talks about, you know, doing judgment against Egypt and other places other than Judah. Mostly he's talking about, you know, taking over Jerusalem and the Chaldeans, you know, taking the Jews into exile and all that but he talks about other nations too and so I'm wondering, he talks about their idolatry and things.

I'm wondering, is the Bible saying that God gave the Torah to all the nations around Israel because it seems like he's making them responsible for keeping the Torah even though they weren't at Mount Sinai so what do you do with that? I have to look at the exact verse to see. I'm looking at, you said Jeremiah 45 which is only five verses and it's a message to me. Yeah, yeah. Jeremiah 45. Oh you're right, I gave the wrong one, I probably meant 46.

Okay. He talks about a whole bunch of nations. There's the day of judgment in the Old Testament for people who are listening, there's a day of judgment in the Old Testament and there's one in the New Testament and the one in the Old Testament, he deals with a whole bunch of nations and he deals with them the same way he deals with Israel for their idolatry, for their adultery, for sacrificing children and all of that which seems to indicate he gave the law to all of them or they were aware of it somehow. Well, there's a lot of stuff you could talk about there so what I'm looking for though is a specific verse to examine because off the top of my head I'm not sure so if we could look at a specific verse like the word nations there is in verse 1 of chapter 46 that which came as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations and the nations have heard of your shame and the earth is full of the cry of distress I'll make an end of all the nations so I'm not exactly sure which verse talks about the law. Yeah you're sorry I didn't say that well it doesn't mention the law specifically but it says I'm going to destroy you for worshipping other gods and it mentions their sins and all of that and so it seems like they must have known what the law was or why is he destroying them you know because he does this with a whole bunch of nations he does this with Judah and we know that the best of course because he talks about that the most but he does this with Syria he's going to do this with Babylon as well later on in the book of Daniel but he does this with Syria Egypt and all of the nations around Israel as well. Yes there's a couple things to talk about here one is that God has his way of communicating to those nations various things before the judgment of God is upon them we see this exemplified by the prophets going to varying nations in the Old Testament warning them things like that and then they're judged you can see remember when Moses sent it to Pharaoh for example and then judgment came so I would look in history to see that say if it's not specifically in scripture but a lot of times it's recorded elsewhere that this is what was going on that's just you know looking at that but there's also something which I think is interesting in 1st Corinthians 4 it's a concept there Paul says for I am conscious of nothing against myself yet I'm not by this acquitted he's not aware of anything that he's done wrong but that doesn't make him okay because the one who judges him is the devil goodness is the Lord and so what he's saying is I'm not conscious of what I've done just because you're ignorant doesn't excuse you and that's the point so the nations are under the Adamic representation the Adamic covenant but all people in Adam are obligated to do certain things and plus the law of God is written on their hearts so they're without excuse Romans chapter 2 talks about this Romans 1 and 2 and so that's what I would first thing I'd look at on the 30,000 foot level and then look into the text particularly to see what's going on in that context I can't do it right now over the year because it's Yeah you make a good point he did send Jeremiah to those nations I forgot about that he sent him completely to those nations I don't know if he sent anybody to Canaan and he definitely punishes the Canaanites for their sacrificing of babies and their idolatry and all that but in what we're talking about I forgot he sent Jeremiah specifically to specific nations he sent him to Jeremiah and all that I forgot about that sometimes you know you can get bogged down reading everything he says to the prophets you know Yep and they called Jeremiah the weeping prophet and that he was the worst evangelist because he got so few converts that kind of a thing but he was called by God to proclaim and he did and people didn't repent and judgment came so yep there you go buddy Yeah it's very eye-opening reading the prophets anyway I'll let you go thank you for answering my questions and for doing maps like live Alright good God bless buddy alright hey folks we'll be right back after these messages we'll talk to Dave from California on divorce and remarriage and hopefully that'll be interesting to be still on so please stay tuned It's Matt Slick live taking your calls at 877-207-2276 here's Matt Slick Alright everyone welcome back to the show if you want to give me a call we have two open lines 877-207-2276 let's get on with Dave from California Dave welcome you're on the air Yeah hi Matt Hi Yeah I just wanted to discuss the issue of divorce and remarriage because I just feel like it's a really controversial issue Okay do you have a question about it or want me to just kind of give the basics about it Well I just know a lot of Christians that are very very I want to say legalistic about it where they maintain that divorce and remarriage is not permitted under any circumstance except death of course you know that's undeniable that that's the exception is if your spouse dies but otherwise you know Matthew 19 9 Jesus makes it clear that if you divorce for any reason other than sexual immorality and then remarry you're committing adultery but a lot of Christians will maintain right a lot of Christians will maintain that this would be not just a one-time adultery like it would be perpetual adultery It doesn't say that It does not Matthew 19 9 it just says except for adultery or immorality porneia is the Greek word so divorce is is just it just that's it you do this if you have this option of divorce it's a subjunctive in the Greek so there's a possibility not an absolute necessity but if you do this okay if you do this wife you can't do it except okay for immorality porneia so if if Jesus own words if you did that now God issued a writ of divorce to Israel people don't know that and that's see that's Jeremiah 3 8 the Lord himself divorced Israel let me read this to you just as a quick look at some other stuff here the word of the Lord came to me saying oh 3 8 not 13 8 I typed in one thing too many that's right I saw for all the adulteries of faithless Israel I'd sent her away and given her a writ of divorce so God divorced Israel for her spiritual authority I mean adultery so wait a minute if someone wants to say even for that you can't well then why did God do it so that's just a point okay and then the other area of permission is found in first Corinthians 7 and this is abandonment so when but to the merit I give instruction this is verse 10 I not I but the Lord that the wife should not leave her husband if she leaves let her remain unmarried the rest I say not the Lord if her brother has a wife who's an unbeliever and she consents to live with him he must not divorce her and it goes on he said however if the unbelieving one leaves let him leave first Corinthians 7 15 if the unbelieving one leaves let him leave the brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases so if you have an unbelieving spouse who abandons you you're free because they've broken the covenant of marriage so adultery and abandonment are definitely two grounds and I've married people done many marriages and I would marry someone who was divorced if they had met the biblical requirements you know that's it as well as if their spouse abandoned them they went through the the issue trying to reconcile trying to make it right and the other person would not have anything to do with it that person's unfree that would not prohibit your marriage okay okay sound good anything else going on um so just to be clear like Jesus uses the word commits adultery correct not is in a state of constant adultery yes yes so if you go to Matthew 19 9 what it says and I say to you whoever divorces his wife this is the aorist active subjunctive in the Greek divorces aorist means past tense active means you're doing the action subjunctive deals with possibility and so not a definite actuality but a possibility whoever may do this is what it's saying whoever may have already done this uh you've committed adultery unless it's it's because they were uh the other person was um in porneia sexual immorality wow that's it it's just that simple okay okay so is there more behind there something else going on are you there we lose them I guess we lost them yeah this is an important topic and um let me just say this a little bit uh that early on in my marriage with my wife we had it pretty rough there was just a lot of stuff happening and we had to go to marriage counseling let me just say that if it wasn't for us both being Christians we probably would have ended up getting a divorce we neither one of us would abandon the other and neither one of us would commit adultery so we were stuck we were just stuck and we had to work it out and we did it took some work and we made things better and now we've been married 38 years and I just tell people how lucky she is to have me because I'm so wonderful but you see the thing is the point is you know we go through things and a lot of times what people will do is they have they have a way out then they'll take it instead of doing what God wants them to do you make it work you figure it out now what do you do if one person is beating physically beating another that's a form of abandonment and that's when the elders need to be get getting involved now in the old testament I like this I'm not saying this is now present I'm just telling you a little fyi in the old testament when that happened and the husband was beating his wife in the old testament context the male relatives of the wife immediate family would go have a discussion with the the husband about it they just talk about it and then the wife would nurse him back to health they begin my drift they took it seriously and so uh I remember hearing someone say oh yeah they took it seriously the wife's got to nurse him back to health because they said you want to do that okay we'll show you what it is so uh so we had to we had to work on our marriages whether we like it or not and I'm gonna tell you sometimes this is not easy it's not convenient and you certainly don't want to that's just too bad that's what I say to people not my problem it's yours it's too bad you got to work it out you have to work it out you have to do what you got to do and sometimes it takes months to work through things it just does sometimes and that's what happens when you get two sinners together but let me tell you something if your eyes are on the lord Jesus and you want him to please him then it's easier to do it right before your wife or before your husband a lot of times people do this is a this catches people off guard when I tell them you'll have a I've done lots of marriage counseling 35 couples I've done married 35 or 36 uh over the years where I've done serious marriage counseling and a lot of times uh the man or the the husband or the wife it doesn't matter they'll say that their spouse isn't properly doing whatever it is and I'll address that and say maybe that's what it is and sometimes it is you know that's a problem you know address this and we work on it and what happens a lot is we become so self-justified the other person is doing what's wrong what we often do is look and use ourselves our hearts and our intentions as what is right that person my spouse is doing something wrong and he or she needs to change and that becomes the whole motif in your mind and your heart because you're convinced that the other person's done something wrong maybe the person it is the case but what I often do is I will address specific issues sometimes they need to be addressed very specifically if someone is doing something wrong but what's often so often overlooked is the offended party's responsibility in being godly a lot of times what happens is we will look at our spouse and say our spouse is the one doing abc that is so wrong I don't have to change I don't have to do anything that person's got to change because I'm okay and they kind of prideful arrogance that that is what it does is it undermines marriage now I'm not saying the other person does not have to change if they're doing something wrong they obviously do I'm just saying it takes two to tangle takes two and I've never seen a case where only one person is guilty usually both are I mean both are usually okay there's some exceptions here but you know usually you know I'll get into that side side note but it's not it might be 90% one person and 10% another or 50 50 or 60 40 whatever it is but it's always the case where what do you do when you find out that you have a problem with your spouse your spouse is doing something wrong maybe it is doing something wrong then what do you do let's say for example your spouse is committing adultery you go to the church's elders and you ask the elders to get involved counseling the whole bit you can do divorce as an option or you can stay and work through it as an option that's up to you but then in that process what is God teaching you about yourself not only the is a necessity of addressing what your spouse is doing but also what have you got to learn and a lot of people just overlook this because they're so self-vindicating so self-righteous that they say I've got nothing wrong I didn't do anything wrong that's always something you got to be careful of I didn't do anything wrong me look how good I am I'm fine look at me pat me on the back that's not good and I'm not saying that it's only that person I'm just saying both people have to be looked at and examined in situations like this and what if what does God got for you what's he training you for and through it that's hard for people particularly when they are the ones who are wronged when they are wronged and it's not fair let me show you something see if I can find it right here really quickly yes um let all this is Ephesians 4 31 let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with malice now notice what he's saying here Paul the apostle and Ephesians 4 31 but all bitterness and wrath and anger now if someone does something against you and you're rightfully wronged they do it they really did do something wrong but sometimes they didn't do something wrong you only think they did something wrong either way you get resentful about it and resentment leads to bitterness bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you bitterness leads to wrath leads to anger leads to slander bitterness is that saying where you have been wronged or think you've been wrong maybe you have or haven't but that's what the effect is the same and then judgment comes you're angry you're wrathful against that person you want something to happen to that person that person needs to be disciplined that person needs to have a counselor rip him a new one that needs to happen and then to justify yourself before that person and others you slander the other person you slander them say that person did this and that and that person I didn't do anything wrong you're saying it's completely 100% that person's own fault now sometimes that's the case but a lot of times it's not so this is Ephesians 4 31 let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with malice ill intent for the other person but verse 32 be kind to one another tenderhearted forgiving each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you when you're working through these things forgive much as you can much as you're able as Christ has forgiven you don't let bitterness take root the other ones will blossom okay hey I'm out of time may the Lord bless you by his grace but back on there tomorrow and I hope you have a great evening God bless everybody another program powered by the truth network