Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick live. Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at KARM.org. When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick live.

Francis taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877-207-2276. Here's Matt Slick. Everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick.

You're listening to Matt Slick live. Today's a nice day. Let's see. Today is September 6th, 2024. If you'd like to, you can give me a call.

Number is 877-207-2276. All right. Well, let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Got a couple of things going here. I'll be down in Salt Lake City tomorrow, tomorrow evening.

And I'm going to visit some friends and stuff. And I'm going to go hear Ed Romine preach. Now, where is he preaching at? What church is he preaching at?

Maybe you guys can put that in the private chat there and I'll announce it. Go down there. Hear him preach. He's a friend of mine.

He has cerebral palsy. A good guy. Loves the Lord. And a friend of mine and I are going to drive down and be there Saturday night and in the morning, get up, go watch him preach. I'll tease him probably.

And then we'll come home. No big deal. So there you go. Hey, just by the way, we are on, let's see, Clubhouse. You can go into Clubhouse and just look for Matt Slick Live in there. Sometimes we even broadcast on Discord, but not many people really go in there, so we don't really worry about it. We are also broadcasting live on Rumble. You can go to rumble.com forward slash Matt Slick Live and also in YouTube.

I think if you just type in Matt Slick Live, you can see that. So it's First Baptist in Provo. That's where it is, Provo. And I'll be there Sunday, Lord willing, I'll be there Sunday morning.

And hear Ed preach. Maybe we'll get something to eat afterwards. I don't know what we'll do. A bunch of guys and I and us or whatever.

So that's what that is. Hey, we have nobody waiting right now. If you want to call me, the number is 877-20-722-76. All right. And if you want, you can email me as well. All you have to do is dial and send an email to info at karm dot org.

Info at karm dot org. And in the subject line, put in radio comment, radio question. And we can get to it. We've got a few of those. So there we go. All right, all right. Okay.

Interesting stuff there. All right. What I'm going to do is just go into some of the questions that are going on and talk about that. All right. So there we go.

Let's see. Why does it seem that Paul wrote Romans in Romans 1, but in Romans 1622 it says that Tertius is the one who wrote Romans? This is Tertius using a pseudonym in Romans 1622.

Let me go to that and we'll talk about it. It's kind of a common question. Romans 1622. I, Tertius, who write this letter, greet you in the Lord. So Tertius was what we would call an amanuensis, an amanuensis. And an amanuensis is someone who would do the writing for you. It's as though that a person was dictating.

So standing there dictating as someone is writing. So Paul is the one saying, I'm telling you, I'm telling you this, I'm telling you that. The amanuensis would write down exactly what he says. And then Paul would say things like greet so and so and so and so, et cetera. And then I, Tertius, who write this, greet you in the Lord also. Tertius was a well-known guy at that time. And that's all that's going on is that both Tertius, well, Tertius did the pen to paper.

But it was Paul who actually dictated it, described it out, things like that. And that's what was going on there. Okay, that was easy.

And no big deal. Let's try this one. I've been a regular visitor for your site about 15 years. I think we've read this one already.

I'll do Facebook group. Uh-huh, I tried. I checked it out before.

And it's got problems. Let me go to the next, uh, the next email. Let's see. Wow.

Oh, that's right. You know, there's so many, this email, this guy is trying to destroy the idea of the resurrection of Jesus. Now, okay, it's really interesting why people want to do that. And the eyewitnesses who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, you know, Paul and Jude, they wrote about this stuff. And yet people just say, no, no, no, it's not true. They work hard at denying Christ. And I wonder why. Different people are going to have different reasons for denying Christ and wanting to deny him.

But definitely it's a spiritual thing. But nevertheless, I do meet them online periodically. And I say, why do you say this? And what they'll do is they'll offer me the presuppositions.

Well, it's impossible for someone from the right to the death of three days. And I say, how do you know? You know, do you know all circumstances and all situations? Do you know if God is out there or not out there? They just say, no, it just can't be because there's no God.

It doesn't work. And what they do is very often they just offer an opinion as a fact. And that's their basis. It's really interesting. All right, here's another one. Now, wait a minute.

Why is that like that? Let's see, sometimes I'd like to hear your point of view on the sovereign grace people. Well, I'd have to know which sovereign grace people, because there's different kinds of groups called sovereign grace. There's different kinds of groups called sovereign grace. There's a denomination that way.

There are individual churches that are called that. So it's hard to say which one. You have to give me an example of who would be more specific. All right, so aside from that one, let's see. Let's try this. Was that that?

No, that was this. Okay, let me try this. Rather their belief in elect versus, I don't know what that means. Elect versus universal. So I don't know what that means. You've got to write complete sentences, folks. Complete sentences with the subject and predicate.

Make a point, then make a point based on that, things like that. All right, let's see. I would love to hear you expand on Proverbs 31-3.

Let's try this. Let's go to Proverbs 31-3. Proverbs 31-3. Do not give your strength to... Do not give your strength to women or your ways to that which destroys kings. Wow. So you heard it.

You heard it. Don't give your strength to women. So what does that mean? I think what it means is the issue of relying too much on women for your own strength. And that don't give vows to them and let them, I think is what Proverbs is talking about, undermine you. So that's what I'm thinking is to others. There's a related verse. Don't give your vigor to others. So that seems to be what it is.

Let's see what the context is before. The words of King Lemuel, the oracle, What, O my son, and what, O son of my womb, and what, O son of my vows. Do not give your strength to women. So a woman is saying this. It looks like the King of Lemuel says that. This doesn't make sense. The King of Lemuel, the oracle, the oracle which his mother taught him. Okay. His mother said that. It's not for kings to drink wine or to rulers or to desire strong drink for they will drink and forget.

What is decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted? Well, yeah. Okay. So, Mother- in-laws. Yeah, that's interesting. I had to do some more research on that one. Don't give your strength to women.

So that's nice. I should quote that to my wife and see what she says. Hey, honey, guess what this says?

And I'll do it for like ten feet away and see what she does, you know, throw something at me or whatever. Who knows? Anyway, let's get to another one. Let's see. In 1 Kings 11-38 God tells Jeroboam through the prophet that he will receive the kingdom of Israel if he follows his commands and walks in his ways. God knows that he will not.

So what are your thoughts on why God says it and if he gives Israel to Jeroboam knowing that he will cause Israel to sin? Well, because God knows counterfactuals and he knows the conditions. Counterfactuals are those things which could exist but don't or don't have any actuality but have a potentiality. So a counterfactual would be a situation like this.

If you do this, things will go fine. This is what will happen. But he didn't do that. So God's just saying what would happen under different circumstances. That's all that's happening.

He's demonstrating that God is a sovereign king who knows everything, what's going on. And that's what's going on there. Let's get to Sam from Raleigh, North Carolina. Sam, welcome. You're on the air. Thank you, sir. Sir, as humans, we have father, mother, children, that kind of thing, and if humans are a reflection of the Creator and there is God the Father, God the Son, is there any credence to a mother?

No. Mormonism teaches there's a mother goddess that came from another planet with her goddess, God's husband. And so in Mormonism, God is an exalted man from another planet. He came to this world. He has a goddess wife. They have relations, produce offspring, they're spirit babies in heaven, et cetera.

But biblically speaking, no, there's no warrant for that whatsoever. God is eternal. There is no gender to God's nature. He identifies himself in the masculine because there's two genders, and he identifies himself in that way for theological reasons as well, federal headship representation.

I can get into it more deeply, but that's what he does. So the only mother associated with anything to do with the Lord God would be in the incarnation where the second person of the Trinity was born from Mary. So that's the only way we could associate anything that way, okay? And sorry, what about God the Holy Spirit as the one who regenerates unbelievers?

Yeah, that's generally understood. The regenerating part. Yes, it's generally understood that the regeneration that's making us born again out of John 3 through 8 and actually 1 Peter 1 says, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again. So this is God the Father who has caused us to be born again. We know that the Holy Spirit indwells us, and I forgot the exact verse for that, but the Father and the Son, if you can find it, the Father and the Son also indwell us, and that's what Jesus says in John 14, 23. And let's see, let's see if I have that verse for the Holy Spirit in there too, my notes.

Yes, Christ, I am search as the heart, minds, Christ is in you. Yeah, we know the Holy Spirit indwells us too, but I don't know if you can find that verse and memorize it. But the Father is the one who specifically is said to be the one who causes us to be born again in 1 Peter 1, 3.

Okay. Alright, I mean, so there is no attribution to God the Holy Spirit as, since he's the regenerating person. I didn't understand everything you said. There's not giving birth to us. So in that sense, that he is mother now. No, no, no, we don't call God our mother, we don't refer to the Holy Spirit as our mother. No, no, no, functionally, because he's the one who regenerates us.

Well, God, it gets difficult, God is specifically the one who causes us to be born again, but it also says in Titus 3.5 that we're saved not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy by the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit. So there's that also. We've got a break coming up. So hold on, okay, and we'll make this after the break, alright? So please hold. Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We have three open lines, if you want to give me a call, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back.

Welcome back to the show. I guess we lost the previous caller there, and I did look and found some other verses more in line with what we're looking at. I did cite Titus 3.5 by the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit and the issue of our being born again, but also Jesus says in John 3 verses 5 through 6, unless you're born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God. So the Spirit of God is definitely involved in our regeneration. Now here's the thing, there's a doctrine in the Trinity called inseparable operations. Inseparable operations means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are being all one essence, one thing, and divinely simple. We recognize their distinction by the relationship they have to one another and to us, and that each does, each is involved in the work of the other. Now there's distinction, but what we see, for example, is in John 5.19.

Okay, I'm going to read this. This is an important verse about inseparable operations. Jesus says the Son can do nothing of himself unless it is something he sees the Father doing. So Jesus, whatever he does, he sees the Father doing it. It's an odd statement that Jesus makes because we know that the Father was not crucified and Jesus only was crucified. So to what extent is Jesus saying this?

Well, that's worth another discussion. We could talk about it because there are distinctions between the members of the Godhead where the Father begets, the Son has begotten, the Holy Spirit redeems, the Holy Spirit convicts, and things like that. Only the Son became incarnate where the Father did not. So yet, because they're all one being, they're one God, then there's this perichoretic relationship.

Perichoresis is the mutual indwelling of the persons in each other. So Jesus can say, what I see the Father doing, I do, which is really interesting. And Jesus says I can do nothing of my own initiative. I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just because I do not seek my own will.

And also, in that issue of Jesus not doing anything of his own initiative, it's also, I believe it's in, where is that verse, where the Holy Spirit also does nothing of his own initiative. And it's really interesting. This is new stuff that I'm coming across and having researched it and learning about it. There are theologians who discuss this, and so I'm becoming more familiar with what's called inseparable operations. So in the doctrine of the Trinity, and as it relates to Christ too, we have the doctrine of the Trinity, the ontological Trinity, the economic Trinity, the perichoresis, and inseparable operations. And so I know all those, and I'll be teaching on them next week.

But at any rate, a lot of good stuff. All right, as soon as Candice, I can't activate her, I can't get her on the air yet. But if you want to give me a call, folks, 877-207-2276. Let's get to Candice from Raleigh, North Carolina. Candice, welcome. You are on the air. Hello, Matt.

Hi. I was listening to a young man last week you were speaking to about the rapture, and I think there's a lot of confusion between that and the second coming. And how do you define what some people call a rapture that's not actually, the word is not found in the Bible?

Right. It's Latin, I believe. Apturus, it has to do, a reptus, which means to be seized or carried away. And so it comes from the parallel verse in Greek, harpazo, to be caught up out of 1 Thessalonians 4. So it's just a Greek, a Latin term that is used and became what we call the rapture. It's out of 1 Thessalonians 4, 16 through chapter 5, verse 2. That make sense so far?

Yes, sir. And is this something that's going to occur pre-tribulation, or are Christians actually going to be through the tribulation and then the second coming of Christ, which some people tie in with the rapture? So is there separate things going on there, or? They're separate events, but they occur, in my opinion, they occur on the same day at the same time. I believe we're going to go through the tribulation period. Now, there are lots of people who believe that we're not going to go through the tribulation period. Okay.

Okay. My view is we won't. That's kind of been my thought for a while that, well, a long time back, I felt like we were going to be going through the tribulation, that we weren't going to be rescued from between. We might go through part of the tribulation, maybe not all of it, but only God knows. God knows, and I think I've got a pretty good study that I think proves we go through it.

I have a study that I've not seen anybody refute in 10 or 15 years. It's not because I don't want to listen, but, you know, go ahead. Well, that's okay. The young man you were speaking to also, you said there were two men in the field, one was taken away and one was left behind. Right. That's the wicked who were taken. The one that was taken away was the wicked.

Yes. Now, where does that come from? Because I've never heard that before.

And that's a shame if you've not heard that before because it's really shameful. And what I'll do is I'll go to the verses and I'll prove it, okay? I'll just take my time here and prove it to you that the wicked are the ones who were taken. Prove it from God's word.

All right. So I'm going to go to Luke 17, 26. I'm also going to go to Matthew 24, 37.

Now, these are parallels. So I'm going to go Matthew then Luke, Matthew then Luke, Matthew then Luke so you can see it. This is Matthew. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. Here's Luke. Just as it happened the days of Noah, so will it be also the days of the Son of Man. Okay? Back to Matthew.

This is 24, 38. For as in those days before the flood, they were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage till the day that Noah entered the ark. Now, over to Luke. They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage until the day that Noah entered the ark. And the flood came in, destroyed them all. Go back over to Matthew 24 because it says Noah entered the ark. They did not understand until the flood came and took them all away. The flood took away the wicked, destroyed the wicked, right? It's clear.

Okay. And then it says, then two men will be in the field, one will be taken, one will be left. What's the context? Who's taken? It's the wicked. And Jesus says, be on the alert and don't go down, do all this stuff, you know, be careful. And he says, let me show you where this is.

Let's see. And in Luke 17, they asked Jesus, well, where are they taken? So the question here is going to be answered by Jesus.

And he says, where the body is, the vultures will be gathered. So this proves two men in the field and one taken, one is left. It's not the good, it's the wicked. That's who's taken.

Okay. So what's the good, where is the good left? Where's the good left? What do you mean?

I don't understand. Yeah. I mean, they're not left out in the field, are they?

They're not left out in the field. Now what I'll do is I'll go to Matthew 13 and we'll get back to the break and I'll show you. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. So this is different. Sounds good.

Most people have not seen this before, but there it is. I'll keep it right back after these messages. Ladies and gentlemen, please give me a call if you want, 877-207-2276. Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show. All right. Let's get back on with Candice from Raleigh, North Carolina. Are you still there?

Yes, Matt. I am. All right. Now I'm going to back up a little bit and show you something here. I actually released an article today as a matter of fact, and a list of scriptures dealing with this very thing. And it's right there.

You can go to the CARM home page. It's the number one article there. So there's only one return of Jesus. That's important. There's not a half return.

Right. There's not a partial return. And this is out of Acts 1, 9-11, when the angels prophesied that Jesus, who had been taken up from you to heaven, will come in just the same way as you watched him go into heaven.

There's no teaching that they teach. He'll come back partially. He just comes back. In Matthew 24, 1-31, Jesus taught about the accompanying signs that would precede his return. Jesus, the disciples, asked him, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? What will be the sign of your coming? There's a single return of Christ.

It's always assumed to be just one thing. So he says the return, we already went through this, Matthew 24, he says, that the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. And Luke 17, just as it happened, the days of Noah, so it will be the days of the Son of Man. So we know that Jesus is just returning once. And then there's a verse in Matthew 25, 31, but when the Son of Man comes in his glory. We don't see a partial coming. We don't see a halfway coming.

We just see there's this one event, his return. That's how the scriptures speak. So now when we go to Matthew 13, what we find there is the parable of the wheat and the tares. And they say, hey, should we tare up the tares?

And he says, no, unless you tare up the wheat also. In verse 30, he says, allow both to grow together until the harvest. And in the time of the harvest, I will say to the reapers, first, gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up.

They've gathered the wheat into my barn. So Jesus is saying, the first ones gathered at the harvest is the wicked to be burned, to be destroyed. Then he interprets what he said in verse 40 through 42, just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness and will throw them into the furnace of fire. And that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now remember, Jesus says, as it was in days of Noah, so shall it be the days of the coming of the Son of Man. They were eating, they were drinking, giving in marriage to the day that Noah entered the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Well, where are they taken? The disciples say, where the body is, the vultures gather. People call that the rapture verse, but it's not. The rapture occurs, that's in 1 Thessalonians 4, but that's not the rapture stuff. So what Jesus is saying is that at the end of the age, which is the time of the harvest, the first ones taken are the wicked and are taken out of his kingdom. That's what he says.

I can go on more if you want. Well I'm just, you're saying that the rapture event would be the same as the coming of Christ and it's all one event? Yes. Okay. Now I don't know if it's exactly one second, but I mean it's the same thing there. Same event.

Okay. So it's not two separate things. And where did that come, I mean where did the whole rapture separate from the second coming ever come in play?

I mean historically, I think it was about 150 years ago or so, and I forgot who started it, but it was in America and, oh man I can't remember the name of the person, oh, anyway it was popularized in the Schofield Reference Bible along with this sensationalism and then became a view that has dominated Christian theology and churches in America. And in my opinion it's because the Christians have gotten away from the sovereignty and majesty of God and they have to some degree gathered teachers that will tickle their ears because it's suited to say, hey we're not going to go through anything, we're just going to be raptured out of here, everything's good. And that to me is what that is, and there's more I can show you too, I can show you even more. Oh I understand that, no I've always kind of felt that there was, that Christ was coming and that was it, we would be going through the tribulation because, you know, there are those that are suffering for Christ now and that doesn't mean we're all going to get away with it. I mean that's my feeling, we may have to still suffer for our beliefs or for our following Christ so, and with him coming, you know, and everybody's saying he's coming soon, he's coming soon, well you can't say when he may be another 15, 20, 100 years, who knows, but we may have to suffer through the tribulation and then go from there.

And I just look forward to glory, that's all. So but I appreciate you helping me understand that further, I was a little confused because I guess I'd never heard the first one about the evil taken first. And I was like, wow, that's kind of interesting, I haven't heard that before. It really throws a lot of people, when I first found it in scripture, it took me two years before I would mention the radio, because, and the reason is because, well that's what it's saying, and I have to be wrong, I've never heard this from anybody.

And I seriously, I've read a lot and studied, it doesn't mean others haven't been teaching and I'm just saying I hadn't heard it. And so it really bothered me to think, okay, I can't be the only one who sees this, and it really bothered me, and after a while I just, this is what it says, and so now I just defend it, that's what it says, and I don't make any apologies for it, that's what Jesus himself said, but what's really interesting is he says that, in fact, let me do this, watch this, okay, let me get rid of my Bible program, there it is. This is what Jesus says in Matthew 24, when the disciples asked, what is the, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age? Jesus goes in and talks about a whole bunch of bad stuff coming. He says there'll be wars and rumors of wars and false Christs, famines, earthquakes, tribulation, false prophets, lawlessness, et cetera, et cetera.

When you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of in Daniel, run to the hills, if those days be not cut short, no flesh would be left. He goes on, he's talking about it, okay, then he says, the coming of the son of man will be from the east to the west, so he's talking about his return. And he says, wherever the corpse is, the vultures will gather. This is what he's talking about in Matthew 24. And he says, but immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars will fall from the sky and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky. If his return is from the sky, is after the tribulation, that's what he says. And he says, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the son of man coming in the clouds of the sky with great power and great glory.

Now, I'm going to pause, I'm going to go to something here and get ready so I can read you something else. Because Jesus says in verse, Matthew 24, 31, he continues in this, he says that he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet. They will gather his elect from the four winds. So this is after the tribulation with a great trumpet, the elect are gathered. When you go to 1 Thessalonians 4, 16, the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. That's the rapture. So we know that the rapture, yeah, it comes with one return, it's with the trumpet, which Jesus himself says is after the tribulation, that's what he says.

People mock me when I say, it's what it says, okay. Well it's true, it's right there, I think like you said, people want to think, oh we're going to miss the tribulation, and you know, where does the two witnesses come into play, and then they talk about the tribes of Judah, and you know, they're going to go out and witness to the world, I think it's the tribes of Judah. And so this is going to be during the tribulation. That's right. Yep.

Okay. And there's more I can show you, there's a lot more, I've taught this for like an hour at a time, in different Bible studies, and I show people, and they're like, oh my goodness, I have never seen this stuff. I say, I know, and it's right there. I know, but it's just, it's like you said, everybody's got that mindset from wherever, from 150 years ago, this guy, whoever he was, putting everybody's mind that, you know, there's the rapture, and then there's the second coming, and it can be quite confusing, but it's all the one. But think about this, let me say this really fast, we've got a break coming up, but Jesus says he'll take them out of his kingdom, so the rapture is, what precedes the rapture is the wicked are taken out of his kingdom, which means the kingdom of God is now. Which means we Christians need to be acting like it, and not waiting to escape out of a demonic kingdom, but we need to live in God's kingdom now. That's a humongously different attitude to have.

It would change everybody's lives. Okay, there's a break, we've got to go. So God bless. Thank you, Matt. All right. Great answers. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. We'll be right back after these messages, please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Wow. It's already the last segment of the hour. I just want to let you know that we stay on the air by your support. If you like what you hear and you want to continue to listen, you want to have the show on the air, please consider supporting us. It's easy to do. Just go to karm.org, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G, forward slash donate.

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All right. Let's get on the air with Elijah from Pennsylvania. Elijah, welcome.

You're on the air. Yeah, Matt. My question is out of Romans today. In Romans 1, 1, it seems that Paul, it seems that it's Paul the one that wrote Romans. But if you go read Romans 16, 22, it actually says that, I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, preach you in the Lord. So it was actually one of Paul's secretaries that wrote Romans. So my question is, was Tertius using a, what's the word, a pseudonym in verse, chapter one to verse one? No. This is interesting.

We've got the same question at the beginning of the hour, interesting. But this is Romans 16, 22, I Tertius, who writes the letter, he's a scribe. He's an amanuensis. He's just someone who was hired or volunteered or whatever to write down what Paul told him to say, where Paul would do that. One of the theories is that Paul, who had been blinded on the road to Damascus, lost his sight. And some think that he retained a vision problem.

And let's see with my own hand. So in Galatians 6, 11, Paul says this, see with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand. So the theory is, he was blinded, it was a vision problem, and it might be the thorn in the flesh that he has, that he can't see as well as he needs to. And so he can write, but he had to write with big letters. So Tertius was probably a scribe, and it was called amanuensis, who would do the physical writing, where Paul would do the dictating, which is very common practice back in that day, because not everybody could read and write. Paul could, of course, but not everybody could read and write. So they had scribes who would do that kind of thing. And it would be someone's job to dictate it, and the scribe would do it.

But he knew it was from the original person. My second question is about the rapture. So I just scanned through the article that you put in the chat, but I didn't see the verses that I sent you to your email the other day, so I'm not sure if you got my email. But another rapture verse that preachers like to use is in Revelation 19. So in Revelation 19, verse 8, it'll tell you that I think the bride of the Lamb is wearing clean clothes, white clothes, fine linen. And then in verse 14, when Jesus returns, it says he's returning with the armies of heaven, and they're wearing the exact same thing that the bride of the Lamb, which is the church, are wearing in verse 8. So preachers like to say that in verse 8, it shows here that we're already in heaven, and then when Jesus returns, he brings us with him along with the angels as well. So what are your thoughts on this, and have you ever heard these verses about preachers?

Yeah, they're not very good. So he's given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean, fine linen, righteousness, and it has to do with the marriage supper and things like that. But verse 14, the armies which are in heaven, clothed with fine linen, white and clean, were following him on white horses. So it certainly is possible that those who died in Christ died in faith, go be with him in the Lord, and they are clothed in white because they are already dead in his presence, and they return with Christ. And we know that this is implied in 1 Thessalonians 4, we who are alive and remain shall not precede those who have died with him, etc. So this could easily be interpreted to mean that the people who died in the faith, they came back with Christ to get the church. That's perfectly possible, and that could occur after the tribulation period.

That's one point. The other point is, whenever the pre-tribbers go to the book of Revelation to make their case, I already am suspicious because it is so symbolic in the book of Revelation that I find it difficult to make a dogma out of the rapture in it. For example, they'll say that the church is not mentioned until after chapter 4 or something like that.

The church is not here during the tribulation period. It doesn't prove anything. Justification isn't mentioned in Revelation either. Does it mean justification isn't true? Just because something is not mentioned doesn't mean it's not still in place. Furthermore, the book of Revelation may not be a chronological book.

It may be heptatic. This is a legitimate issue with the book of Revelation because there are seven churches, seven angels, seven candlesticks, and maybe the book of Revelation is written in seven cycles or seven views of the same thing laid out. This is a serious consideration to be put upon the book of Revelation.

I've never done this because I've got too many other things I'm doing. When the pre-tribbers go to the book of Revelation and they try and find something, it's weak. Just like the Catholics when they go to Revelation 5-8, the prayers of the saints in heaven. Do you know what I mean?

They can hear everything we're saying. What? Where'd you get that? And so there's too much symbolism there to make something absolute, and that's what I would... I'd have problems with that. Okay? Yeah. And it's funny, though, because when you just brought up Revelation 5-8 about the prayers being heard about the saints in heaven, it actually says that the prayers go up to God from the angel. It doesn't say that the prayers go up to the saints from the angels, it says it goes up to God. Yes.

And it means, because the Catholics have told me, yeah, the people and the saints are in heaven with God, they can hear them. I'm like, where do you get this stuff? You know?

It's the book of second hysterectomy. That's where they're getting it. It's just ridiculous stuff. Yeah.

Well, it is, you know? So they will relate things. People will try and make the text say whatever they want it to say because they're not submitting to it.

And that happens a lot. Okay? It does. Anyway, hope that helps, buddy. Okay?

Yeah. Thanks, Matt. All right, man.

God bless, buddy. All right. Okay. We'll see you. All right. All right.

Let's get to Norman from Charlotte, North Carolina. Welcome. You are on the air. How you doing, Matt? No, I'm hanging in there. I'm hanging in there.

What have you got, man? Listen, it's John Nelson Darby that I believe is the creator or founder, if you want to call it, the guy who started the dispensational idea. Yes.

He died in 1882 and his view became popularized. So it actually started in Britain, not America. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Yeah. Check it out. Yeah.

I'm pretty sure that's accurate. Okay. Yep. The Brethren movement.

That's where it came from. Okay. So, anyway, that was why I called and I just wanted to ask you, have you ever heard John MacArthur's, some of his sermons on, because he's pre-Trib and all that, he's a dispensational pre-mill, which is really surprising with a guy of that knowledge, a guy with that kind of knowledge.

It's very surprising. Yes, I agree. That's okay, right? I mean, he's a smart guy, but what I was going to say is, have you ever heard some of his older sermons on that? No. I've not heard a single sermon of his, ever.

I just know who he is and that's it and I haven't listened to him. I'm too busy. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. If someone has a specific one about the rapture. Some of his early sermons on them, and I don't remember how I still, they're available online somewhere. Okay. It's the craziest stuff I've ever heard. The things that they believe, and again, it's not a matter of division, to your point. They want to believe that, that's fine. But guys like you and I say, I mean, it's just like, it sounds like, it sounds insane.

Some of the things, and I can't remember them, unfortunately, and this is coming from him. I mean, some of the ideas like, the world's going to become converted and- That's post-millennialism. Post-millennialism says that the world's going to be converted. What I find odd about that, that sounds more like post-millennialism.

It is post-millennialism. I still sometimes get confused with as many, as much as I may have studied all of them, I still sometimes am not sure about, we're the wisest drawn, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I get you, but I've not heard any specific sermons. He's a good preacher teacher, I disagree with him on dispensationalism. He's also a cessationist, I'm not disagree there, but you know, okay, he's a good man of God and worth listening to. Yeah, yeah, I was just saying, it's got, my real reason I call was to say it's John Darby that started it, and we do have some great men like him that believe it, so maybe there's something to it, and there might be in the end, but I don't see it, like you, I don't see it.

I hope so. What's that? I don't see it. I just don't see it.

I don't see it in scripture. Yeah, so I'm, just for what it's worth, I'm probably more of a partial preterist than anything else. Yeah, me too.

I think that's where I've landed. Yeah, me too. Oh good, oh good. Yeah. All right, well maybe some other time, we can take this up, because it's getting late. Nice talking to you again. Okay.

All right man, God bless. Nice talking to you. Have a good weekend. Bye-bye. You too. All right, last caller, Corey from South Carolina, welcome. You're on the air. Hey, what's, hey, what's going on man, how you doing? Oh, hanging in there buddy, Friday.

So what do you got man? Listen, uh, one, I want to tell you the whole thing that you just explained to the lady about, uh, about how the wicked are going to be taken first and how, and how it actually plays out. I've, I've actually thought that way, but every time I go to a church and I hear it preached a different, it's preached that other way, it makes me feel kind of uneasy because it just doesn't sound right. You know what I mean? I know. Um, I know, but, uh, with that, I've been reading the book of John and what got me was the last part of John about verse 20, uh, about, uh, the last verse, last chapter, 2120.

All right. So John, these books are written by John, right? This was written by John, 1st and 2nd and 3rd John were written by John and Revelation was also written by John. Is that correct? The same? That's correct. John, the disciple.

Okay. So here's my thing in verse 20 it says, then Peter turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved followed. Now why would John write himself in the third person in a book that he was writing? And why would he call himself the disciple whom? Because he's talking about God and he's going to keep himself in a humble position. Talk about himself in the third person, the one who loved it. Hey, he loved me. He's just going to keep it vague. The one he loved is being humble.

That's what I think. Okay. But it says also who leaned on his breast at the supper.

So he would describe himself as, I'm the guy that was laying on Jesus at the, at the party at the party, but at the last supper, he would describe himself like that. Sure. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I have no problem with that.

Just looks like he's being humble. Okay. You're not the only one who's noticed that. All right. And buddy, we got to go because we're out of time.

The music's going. There it is. All right, man. Call back Monday. All right. Have a good one. All right, brother. We'll do it.

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